1967 Impala SS427 L-72?

[StealthBird]

Just received my Sept 2012 Hemmings Muscle Machines, and a feature story is on Bill Wickman's 1967 Impala SS427, with a 425hp L-72. Supposedly, none were built, yet he has one, and has owned the car for 30 years. No documentation exists. Bill scored 992/1000 points at the MCACN show, and three judges agreed the car appeared to be authentic.

There's a mention that eleven L-72 full-sized cars were built, which includes Biscayne, Bel Air, Impala, Caprice, and station wagon models. But no one is sure if Bill's 4-speed Impala SS 427 is authentic, as there is no paperwork.

Couldn't Bill trace the previous owner(s), or obtain the original title through a service, which should have the hp rating of his car? I seem to recall that titles state the hp rating, make and model, and the original title should show the 425 hp rating (or however the state of California describes it).

What a cool car though, and I'll bet this thing flies.

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/3gears.gif

[kwhizz]

I'm pretty sure there are some records that document 11 engines were built.....But no paper trail as to where they ended up.....Can-Am cars???.....Jenkins????........

[PeteLeathersac]

No RPO L72 for '67 B-Body but wasn't it John Z who posted here in the past about a '67 L72 Impala he had?
A factory engineering car w/ a 'Special' tag riveted on the inner also didn't he save the tag and post a pic of it here?


<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif
~ Pete

[kwhizz]

I stand corrected 17 engines......this was copied from another site that are discussing this exact car also


Tonawanda Engine Plant records show 17 L72 427/425 engines (Suffix codes ID and IK) built for full-size Chevy passenger cars but there are no existing records of the engines being shipped to assembly plants for installation.

Documention from Fran Preve..former employee of Tonawanda engine plant. Same info listed in Alan Colvin's Chevrolet by the Numbers 1965-69 edition, page 44.

[kwhizz]

Hers a link...................

http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/284374/

[PeteLeathersac]

Here it is... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&amp;Number=164593&amp;page=4
I don't see the tag pic, must've been posted in a different thread?

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif
~ Pete

[PeteLeathersac]

Here's the thread w/ the pic, cruise down to John Z's attachment.
Note it's 'Special Order' on the tag, sorry not just special.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/390413/5


<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[galveston]

The clue to wheather it's real lies in the cowl tag, there is one individual that has indepth knowledge of this vehicle in question. All indicators say it's a fraud.

[Bill Pritchard]

I've read a lot of discussion on this car on the Impala SS427 website, and as Shaun says, there are substantial indications that it's a fraud.

[ANDY M]

Bill, with all due respect, &quot;indications&quot; are not proof. Since he has owned the car for 30 years, and does not seem inclined to sell it, who needs the drama?

On a more positive note, if you turn to page 39, there's a nice picture of the MOF, Brian Potter, with his new (for him) Chevelle, which won Best of Show at the Hemmings &quot;Musclepalooza XV&quot; car show.

WAY TO GO, BRIAN <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

Andy

[olredalert]

----Last MCACN when I saw this car the owner saw me looking pretty closely at it and out of no where said &quot;Hey Bill, havent seen you in a few years&quot;. Back when I first moved to Chicago to take a position at Classic Motors I met Bill Wickman as half of the custom body and paint shop named &quot;Royal Coach&quot;. That was in 1976! we hadnt seen each other since 1985 or so. We had numerous high end jobs done at Royal Coach in the ten years I spent in that area and I became good friends with Bills partner, Bill Vollmer (RIP), as well as Bill W. I know theres no paperwork, and I know the chances are slim, but I also know Bill and his history with this car and trust his statements in relation to it. Since its not for sale why not just enjoy a beautiful 67 427SS?.......Bill S

[black69]

I read that article on the car in the magazine, and I would have thought someone would have judged the car's engine stamping and broach marks as correct. The magazine also refered to judging by muscle car and corvette nationals (a sponser here) as being correct (and I think they would look at the pad closely).

I think its real and we should appreciate respecting the car as its presented. If it comes up for sale, then its a different story, and you have to look at the car seriously and nit pick it if it is really a one of one.

[Tommy Nolen]

I read and enjoyed the article on the '67 SS 427 also. What a neat car, the one thing that caught my eye was the lack of the idler pulley that was normally used on the L72 cars. The SS 427/385 horse car would not have had the idler becasue it would have had hyd lifters but I would have thought the 425 would have had it. Just wondered

[olredalert]

----Tommy,,,I would also at least wonder where it went, but you and I both know how many of those idler pulleys got trashed. Since those idlers are fairly easy to come by I actually think it points more to the car more likely being an original L72. Id be willing to bet that the original idler was gone before Bill got the car some 30 years ago.

----And,,,On the pad check, Bill Braun was one of those judges and hes pretty sharp on broachmarks and #s as hes been a judge for a long time at BG as well as MCACN, and other Corvette judging venues......Bill S

[Tommy Nolen]

Bill,
I think you are right, a lot of those pulleys got trashed when the bearing went out. There was a time when the pulley was still available but the bracket wasn't. I think both are available today. Some years ago I had a '66 L-72, the car still had the original motor but the pulley and bracket were gone when I bought the car.

[kwhizz]

More info from Chevytalk...........

didit2 Said:

aawtech Said:

Except the 50 years later, and still none WITH PROOF have EVER surfaced? Not likely. The car in question is a fraud. Someone very knowledgeable has all the info on this car, and there are many concerns as to the authenticity of the car. As I have said over and over again, &quot;show us some REAL documentation to prove the authenticity of it's existence, and we can put this whole situation to bed.&quot;

Donny





Donny, if you read my post, I said; Quote:

I have no documentation nor do I have stories of any particular combo



I wasn't referring to the car in question, nor was I saying any such car was built, in fact I specifically was quoting numbers from 1971 in reference to what Richard said about LS6 Chevelles of that year and just pointing out the discrepancies in their own record keeping, and the fact that leaves the door open for some possible unknown/undocumented cars to have existed. No claim that an particular car exists. Just that with over 5000 engines and transmissions that were coded for assembly line installation are basically unaccounted for and we really don't what they were or where they went. You don't know and neither do I. In fact obviously, neither does GM at this point.



True, but this subject has been broached many, many time over the years. The L72 is not listed as an option on any ordering info in 1967, none have surfaced, and there are only 17 engines unaccounted for in this instance, not 5000. The original post was in fact about this car, and the car is in fact a complete FRAUD! It was a turbo 400 car as documented by the second set of trans mounts on the frame, the trans code on the cowl tag, it is NOT and SS427 car (no 4D, and it should be there from that plant), the tach face has been altered, the block casting number has been altered, plus many other items which I won't get into here. To leave this subject untouched and say &quot; it could exist&quot; is reckless at best. This car is NOT real in any sense of the word, is a total fabrication, and should not be the &quot;what if&quot; poster child of &quot;it could exist&quot;. Those of us who own, and are really into these cars are in fact protective of the info and the righteous cars out there, and must react to these blatant frauds created by someone when they are presented as &quot;the real deal&quot;. This car will get sold for crazy-carzy money if someone buys the &quot;urban legend&quot; of it's existence and thinks that this ONE is the missing link.

Donny

[kwhizz]

More....................


Richard Martin Said:

Donny said:
&quot;The L72 is not listed as an option on any ordering info in 1967.&quot;

How do you know that? Have you actually seen-- ALL-- the 1967 ordering info for the entire 1967 model year?

The reason I ask is because I have 6 (six) Chevy printed 1971 Chevy dealer ordering info books and I may not have all of them. For example if I look at my August 1970 dated book for the new for '71 Chevy or even the April '71 dated book I can not make an accurate and honest judgement call of what was and what wasn't for the entire '71 model year.

Richard






Yes Richard, with all due respect, I believe that I actually do. I own an original copy of the 1967 Dealer ordering binder from the Philadelphia Zone office which includes all the inner departmental memos (it's about 4 inched thick) which has all the updates in it, plus there is nothing at the dealer level (RPO or LPO for that matter) in print showing the availability of option code L72 in a 1967 passenger model of any type as there is in 1966, 1968, and 1969. Is there the possibility that something exists? Sure there is, but it should have surfaced in the last 45 years more than likely. Like I said, this has been discussed at great lengths over at another site which I am very active on. We have 3 of the very best 1967 historians at that site, and it is understood that there were no L72 big cars built for the 1967 model year. I believe Mr. Colvin's book even states that there are no records of the 17 coded engines that were supposedly made every making it into a car. Again, if someone EVER comes up with a REAL car with REAL documentation, I'm certain that this would be re-investigated. The point of this original post is that the car in Ill. is supposed to be the &quot;real deal&quot; and there are so many holes in that car's make-up, it's absurd. The car is not even a real Z24 car which it supposedly is. The car is a complete, made-up FRAUD, period. I can't be any nicer or plainer than that, sorry.

Donny

[kwhizz]

Don't shoot the Messenger.............

[Bill Pritchard]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kwhizz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't shoot the Messenger............. </div></div>

Amen to that.

[olredalert]

----Well,,,An expert seems to have spoken.....Bill S

[Stefano]

I don't know the owner and knew nothing about this particular car until recently. I know enough to say, never say never.

Anyone can be defrauded and potentially make a mistake.

I think this is one cool Muscle car and I for one would like to know if GM ever produced one or more and/or whether or not this is a real car?

This is after all just what discussion boards and these forums are all about?

[PeteLeathersac]

The ChevyTalk discussion seems a bit too wrapped up w/ opinions based on personal collections of info and what was available RPO or otherwise for '67 model year B-body dealer orders.
Focusing only on what would fly as an order completely ignores what was actually produced, especially considering cars that may've been built for engineering or other purposes!

A good example of a similar possibility is the factory built SBC 400 '69 we looked at in this thread a few days ago, a '70 motor in a '69 model car! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/497370/Re_COPO_9564#Post497370
Although not one of the experts, I'm more a believer in John Z's story of the car he had than anything else I've ever seen on the whole '67 L72 B-body subject.
Am I missing something and others don't feel the same?


<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif
~ Pete

[kwhizz]

I guess it's all a matter of &quot;Perception&quot;.........and how deep one wants to get involved in the 1 of 1 cars falling out of the sky without any Doc's......But....I think that's what these car sites are about......I think I should stop now before I get into trouble again!!........

Ken

[L72copocamaro]

I would not refute John Z's story either. What possible gain would he have to make such a claim. I'm sure there were many engineering cars that made it into consumer use and this car could be one of them. But, until someone comes up with proof beyond a shadow of doubt, none made it out on the production line. Like Stefano said, never say never, because anything was possible at that time as evidenced by many documented backdoor deals.

The truth needs to come out about this car though before someone gets burned; whether that is the buyer or the seller.

[kwhizz]

From an earlier post from another site written by a 66-67 L-72 &quot;Guru&quot;.....


True, but this subject has been broached many, many time over the years. The L72 is not listed as an option on any ordering info in 1967, none have surfaced, and there are only 17 engines unaccounted for in this instance, not 5000. The original post was in fact about this car, and the car is in fact a complete FRAUD! It was a turbo 400 car as documented by the second set of trans mounts on the frame, the trans code on the cowl tag, it is NOT and SS427 car (no 4D, and it should be there from that plant), the tach face has been altered, the block casting number has been altered, plus many other items which I won't get into here. To leave this subject untouched and say &quot; it could exist&quot; is reckless at best. This car is NOT real in any sense of the word, is a total fabrication, and should not be the &quot;what if&quot; poster child of &quot;it could exist&quot;. Those of us who own, and are really into these cars are in fact protective of the info and the righteous cars out there, and must react to these blatant frauds created by someone when they are presented as &quot;the real deal&quot;. This car will get sold for crazy-carzy money if someone buys the &quot;urban legend&quot; of it's existence and thinks that this ONE is the missing link.

Donny

[galveston]

Kwizz,
That paragraph by Donny B. is right on and says it all!
The trim tag does not lie,No 4D (Z24 code) turbo 400 production trans mounts, owner claims 2.73 gears (all 4spd. cars had 3.31'S or lower),Incorrect tach yellow line. to many red flags for it to be real.
No mention of rear diff. code, would be another clue.
Back door exec. car? how long will that hold water?

Popcorn anyone?

[black69]

This is what happens when you have no documentation.
Once he restored the car, he lost any chance of proving it came the way it sits. too bad.

This car kinda reminds me of stories of what I heard about some old chevys being built in the janesville wisconsin plant. One guy told me, there were some pickups that had their engines swapped out while inside the plant. So there are some odd trucks running around with highest performance engines (that would have never came that way). Some signs would be left behind of the original build (lets say like a wrong trans mount). They would not have changed the build sheets either. But some of these '427' and '454' trucks made it out the door (perfectly date code correct to the vehicle). Some folks looked the other way. and no vin would be on the block (obviously). It just makes me wonder if this happened here on this impala (not a true factory sanctioned build).

[jim67camarobeast]

I worked for Bill Wickman for years,was there the day it came off the car carrier,Bill had me drop the tank go through the whole car looking for the build sheet,i came up empty,he has been researching this car ever since,Bill did not alter anything on this car i knew this info on this car 20 yrs ago nothing has changed this car is exactly what he says it is,to bad chevy does not keep records if they did there would be no discussion of it being a fraud.

[442w30]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jim67camarobeast</div><div class="ubbcode-body">to bad chevy does not keep records if they did there would be no discussion of it being a fraud. </div></div>

The records exist, but they have yet to be released to the public domain.

[Mr70]

Really?.......How do you know this to be true?

[mssl72]

You sound very sure of that fact. What kind of evidence do you have? I for one would love to believe that the records exist and will turn up. I have a very good friend that has worked at GM for over 30 years. He's got friends all over there including friends in the archives. Even his friends in the archives have been digging to see if something is around. Many of them are true car guys that would love to find a stash of paperwork. Nobody has found anything. I guess there's always a chance, but in this case it's almost too slim to measure.

[Steven J]

From the Rt. 66 Classic event on Saturday.

[442w30]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mssl72</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You sound very sure of that fact. What kind of evidence do you have? I for one would love to believe that the records exist and will turn up. I have a very good friend that has worked at GM for over 30 years. He's got friends all over there including friends in the archives. Even his friends in the archives have been digging to see if something is around. Many of them are true car guys that would love to find a stash of paperwork. Nobody has found anything. I guess there's always a chance, but in this case it's almost too slim to measure. </div></div>

I've got my sources, so I can only go by their veracity. And by archives, you mean the Heritage Center? *If* it ever sees the light of day, it likely won't be a part of the Heritage Center.

[Verne_Frantz]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 442w30</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mssl72</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You sound very sure of that fact. What kind of evidence do you have? I for one would love to believe that the records exist and will turn up. I have a very good friend that has worked at GM for over 30 years. He's got friends all over there including friends in the archives. Even his friends in the archives have been digging to see if something is around. Many of them are true car guys that would love to find a stash of paperwork. Nobody has found anything. I guess there's always a chance, but in this case it's almost too slim to measure. </div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">I've got my sources, so I can only go by their veracity. And by archives, you mean the Heritage Center? *If* it ever sees the light of day, it likely won't be a part of the Heritage Center. </span></div></div>

I can't believe I just read that. Common decency prevents me from commenting further.

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/shocked.gif

[mssl72]

Not Heritage Center related at all. Real Archives, Engineering, Research and Development. These are guys that can pull blueprints for bolts that that were used to put brackets on mid 60's big blocks to see who the supplier was, plating type, head marking, etc. These are guys that were Project Managers for Corvettes, Cadillac XLR, new Camaro designers. Like I said, real car guys that want to find anything and everything. If one day stuff shows up, I would welcome it. But I'm definitely not holding my breath.

[bergy]

I agree Mark - never say never, but highly unlikely that documentation exists. I was fortunate to have transfered around GM quite a bit during the late 60s and throughout the 70s (assembly plant, foundry division, Warren R&amp;D). IMO the best chance of finding docs would have been at the assembly plant level. I got to follow a few &quot;executive requests&quot; through the process at the St. Louis assembly plant, but I never recall having kept written documents on them. We did have written AVOs, but didn't file them post build. Government emission certifications were required for drive train combinations - a non-compliant build wasn't something that was advertised. Also, including non-standard components at the assembly line level was an invitation for problems that had the potential of stopping the line - so most of the major &quot;specials&quot; would be done in the repair area or in the garage. All official paperwork (including trim tags) would show a standard build.

[442w30]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Verne_Frantz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I can't believe I just read that. Common decency prevents me from commenting further.

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/shocked.gif </div></div>

Well, Verne, you're welcome to remove any decency with me if you wish. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif

The point is that there's always hope. I know a story of things moving forward from a person in-the-know, yet the Heritage Center knew nothing about this. This is from two years ago, and I haven't heard an update since then.

I certainly didn't expect this to change the course of the thread. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/haha.gif

[GTO_DON]

Im just throwing this out there and not stirring the pot. But if all the record exist for pontiac and buick and olds then why is there no records for their biggest most profitable division? I am one of the minority that believes these records exist and someone at the top does not want them released due to the firestorm that would come from it. Just a thought.

[ANDY M]

Guys, when Jim Mattison spoke at the MCACN last year, he revealed that he found the records, but he was a day late and a dollar short. According to Jim, he tracked down the information that there was a warehouse in PA with all of the Chevrolet records on microfiche. The bad news was that some GM bean counter had decided that they were more than 7 years old, and therefore obsolete. The contents of the warehouse were destroyed as a cost cutting measure.

END OF STORY. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/mad.gif


btw, Jim owns the PHS, and worked in the Chevrolet central office back in the day. I believe him.

[SS427]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GTO_DON</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> But if all the record exist for pontiac and buick and olds then why is there no records for their biggest most profitable division? .......someone at the top does not want them released due to the firestorm that would come from it. </div></div>

I agree except for I do not understand why the other divisions have released the records and gotten no firestorm. I am not sure why GM would suffer for individuals who cloned cars. Where would they be legally in trouble with that? What am I missing?

[sYc]

I have quizzed Jim about this very matter, and he said there would be no firestorm within GM. GM/PHS has never had to appear as a witness in court, as the documents they provide are legal documents, permissable as evidence.

[Verne_Frantz]

I'll just say it was your attitude that got to me. <span style="font-weight: bold">&quot;I've got my sources&quot;</span>

[njsteve]

Why do people always think there is some type of Area 51 alien conspiracy about not having Chevy records? It was GM's largest division and there would have been literally tons of records that they had no need for, and certainly no extra money to pay for archiving. (sadly).

The smaller divisions like Pontiac were able to save their records due to their small size in relation to Chevrolet. And that is exactly why they were saved, thankfully.

So guys, please dont bring up the old &quot;Chevrolet is trying to prevent lawsuits against them for clones that will be revealed&quot; argument. It has absolutely no basis in reality. (I tell you that as a lawyer and a car guy).

In fact, as these records are considered under the &quot;business records exception&quot; under the rules of evidence, GM would have loved to have gotten paid $100 a pop for the certified copies of each record they could provide for any case. Even better still, getting paid an expert witness fee to provide an actual person to testify to the document would be an even bigger windfall.

Maybe we can start a new reality TV series: Clone Hunters, like the cheesy Ghost Hunter and Bigfoot Hunter TV shows. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif

[442w30]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Verne_Frantz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll just say it was your attitude that got to me. <span style="font-weight: bold">&quot;I've got my sources&quot;</span> </div></div>

There's no attitude there. I just happen to know someone in-the-know, but I don't think I'm at liberty to say who this or the other person is. It was my understanding that it was common knowledge that they existed but red tape was holding it back.

[69LM1]

I can tell you for a <span style="text-decoration: underline">fact</span> that the NICB has a field for horsepower as well as delivering dealer on their form/fiche. Not every form has the HP field filled and not every form has the dealer but many do.

When I was working with CarFax a few years ago to broker a deal with them and the database contractor they use to access the data and CarFax wanted some idea on market desire, I posted on a few sites about who would be interested and how much would they pay for a report. I posted a copy of a report on one of my cars. This was the REAL report from the DB contractor that accessed the fiche and created the database, on their forms, not some verbal from an officer or screen print.

The NICB got several calls threatening lawsuits and thereafter broke off negotiations with us.

The ONE physical report that I was able to get had that info on it and I got a cease and desist call from the officer via the NICB to remove the report image at once.

Why are so many people afriad of any info being made public? Why is the NICB, who could make a mint off of these reports so afraid to release the information?

RichPern

[njsteve]

Probably because the National Insurance Crime Bureau also collects claims data, which in many cases involves intertwined medical insurance claims that are linked with a particular vehicle's VIN. The moment you mention medical claims, then the Federal HIPAA laws on medical record privacy comes into play. Read that as BIG penalties for revealing personal information. That is probably why they went running scared, even though it is so far away from even being remotely related, it could still be a billion to one possibility. And sadly, that is too close to reality for them.

[Ivan]

I own this car in question and I believe it is real. Very well respected experts who have actually seen the car seem to agree. You can't deny that. 992 points at The 2011 Muscle Car and Corvette Nationals says something. Donny in all due respect have you seen the car in person? If you have you have never mentioned that fact in any of your posts on any forum. And what qualifications do you have that tower over Alan Colvin and the judges of MCCN including Bill Braun who is the chief judge of MCCN? No disrespect but what are your qualifications? Why are you not a judge on the authenticity of these special cars? Or are you? I want the facts and the truth. I am not crying fraud or am I a expert by any means. Of course since I own the car I want it to be real. And since you don't you want it to be a fake.
The date code on the block confirm it was built very late in 66'. Would that be a 68' motor? The answer is no. It is a 67' motor. It also is stamped &quot;ID&quot; which confirms it is one of the 11 of 17 built in 1967. The other 6 were stamped &quot;IK&quot;. The GM bulletin was issued in March of 1967 stating the motor will be available in the beginning of April of 67'. 1967 Impalas were still being built in July of 67'. The car was built in the 5th week of May of 67'. Therefore it is very possible that a L-72 was installed in a 67' Impala. All the dates make sense. Also there is a picture of the L-72 in the full size 1967 assembly manual that actually shows the L-72 diagram. There is no &quot;cancelled&quot; to be found on any of the pages that reference this motor for the 67' model year. Also about the &quot;4D&quot; on the data plate. It has been verified by a build sheet on a true 1967 Impala SS/427 that the data plate did not have the stamp '4D&quot; but was a real SS/427. Maybe some plants or maybe only one used that code. You have no proof they all had that stamp and it was proven you were wrong by a build sheet. Explain that one Donny. This particular car was built in Los Angeles. These are all undeniable FACTS!
I talked to the owner of the car and I was told the reason this car surfaced decades after is that he had no knowledge himself that the car existed even though it was sitting in his backyard. Yes he owned the car and he knew it was a 427/425 L-72 but when he discovered that the 11 of the 17 motors built for the 67' model year had a stamp of &quot;ID&quot; he decided to take a stroll to the car to check. Shazam!! That is where it begins. He thought the previous owner might have installed a different motor from the original. He now knew he was wrong all these years. And what about that second car that someone by the name of Danny Z. claims he owned and purchased through the Chevrolet. Here is his post:

&quot;I had one when I worked at Chevrolet Engineering - tagged it for employee purchase the day it arrived in the Company Car Fleet garage; L-72 4-speed SS427, special-ordered by Engineering for Chassis Development. It hit the 3,000-mile mark in December, and I bought it and drove it home just before Christmas; sold it in Flint a couple of years later.
Removed the &quot;Special Order&quot; tag from the left side front fender reinforcement and put it in my rollaway just before I sold it, still have the tag - photo below. There may not have been any L-72 SS427's built on dealer order for retail sale, but there was at least one built for Engineering; I bought several sets of rear tires for it in the two years I owned it.&quot;

Bottom line is I respect everyone including Donny. I am again by no means a expert but I do have common sense. The fact is that the build sheet, protecto-plate, and or the original dealer invoice will may never be found on this car. If was available it would have most likely already surfaced. But does that mean this car is not the real deal? The answer is there is no right or wrong answer to that question. The facts prove that this can very well be a real deal. There is too many FACTS pointing in that direction. I am a firm on my belief it is real because I go by facts. For those who scream fraud just think that even you know Chevrolet kept poor records back in those days. You know that the build sheet can have very well be thrown away at the end of the assembly line. How many of today's classics actually have the build sheet that comes with the car? And how many dealer invoices come with all the classic cars on the planet today? Maybe 10% ? Come on you have to admit it is possible and with all the facts that pertain to this specific car it is highly likely this IS THE REAL DEAL&quot;.

[Ivan]

Also may I ad those dealer pocket price books for 1967 were distributed in 1966 for the 1967 model year were they not? Show me a dealer price pocket book that dates after the March 1967 service bulletin that clearly states the L-72 will not be available for all cars built after 4/3/1967. Any pocket books dated prior to the service bulletin can not be used as evidence. Would this explain why the L-72 is not in the pocket price book? Of course it does.........

[galveston]

Ivan, congrats on your purchase, A lot of the questions you have may be best answered by Warren Leunig who runs the SS427 registry and can be found on the SS427 message board website, Donny Bock is also there.

[ss427copo]

All I can tell you all is this. After taking my 69 Camaro to the Norwood Reunion last July that was hosted by author and Norwood expert Phil Borris, and listening to the workers and their stories about that facility, don't ever say &quot;that was never done at the factory&quot;. These ladies and gentlemen told stories about the cars that came out of Fisher Body and Chevrolet that would blow away all the so-called experts claims of authenticity.

As an example, workers would run out of parts and improvise. Camaros and Firebirds came out of Fisher Body with a floor pan for a column shift Camaro and the chassis was assembled with a 4-sp. What did they do? They called for a guy named Chisel Man. He had 25 seconds to make a hole where there was none. Another was how employees who had ordered cars would have options installed that WERE NOT on the order paperwork by friends &quot;on the line&quot;. True stories.

So, while some of you &quot;experts&quot; will contradict the authenticity, remember, sh*t happened on the line that unless you were there, don't ever say never! ANYTHING was possible.

ps. I won't even get into the Canadian Built SS 427 that I sold a couple of years ago!

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r59/nhra1060sc/ImpalaFrontsized.jpg (http://s141.photobucket.com/user/nhra1060sc/media/ImpalaFrontsized.jpg.html)

[67 Nova Boy]

Is that Sierra Fawn? Love that color.

Dave
67 Nova Boy

[galveston]

Looks like Granada Gold???

I'd like to here about your 67 Z24 you sold Jeff.

[ss427copo]

Not a Z24. Even rarer. L36, T400 w/ 2:73 gears. The only item missing from the born with everything in the car was the engine block heater. Probably the most original, unrestored, near perfect 67 there is.

It's now back in Canada where she was born at the Oshawa Plant in a collection.

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r59/nhra1060sc/CanadianVintageGOLDa.jpg (http://s141.photobucket.com/user/nhra1060sc/media/CanadianVintageGOLDa.jpg.html)

[GTO_DON]

So somebody added the hood then if it was not a Z24. Right?

[mrays]

Here are some pictures I took of the car in question at Mecum Indy in 2013. I'm no full size expert, but I thought 2Z was the code for the M40 TH400 and 2L would be the code for an M21 or M22 4 speed. I don't know what the 4R is. I believe 5Y was deluxe seat belts. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2014/07/full-18308-13369-img_6522.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2014/07/full-18308-13370-img_6523.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2014/07/full-18308-13371-img_6524.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2014/07/full-18308-13372-img_6525.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2014/07/full-18308-13373-img_6526.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2014/07/full-18308-13374-img_6527.jpg

[GTO_DON]

Your absolutely right. 2Z is for an automatic. 4R is for a rear window defog I believe. It's a shame it's a fake car. I always wanted to believe they made a 425hp car. Awesome color too. My car has the infamous 4D on the tag which is bulletproof for the Z24 option.

[92646]

Ivan,
Did you buy the car in Newport beach a couple of weeks ago? Are you located in southern California?

[GTO_DON]

Tachometer has been altered too. They would never have the yellow line that long. That was originally a 5500 redline tach.

[ss427copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GTO_DON</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So somebody added the hood then if it was not a Z24. Right? </div></div>

Yup....in July of 1967. It was a perfect hood. (Still is) Dan still have the car?

[TAR6569]

4R is fender skirts.

Car still has the 2nd set of crossmember mounts for the TH400 trans!

Car still fooled the MCACN judges that year it was shown. lol

[aawtech]

Ivan.... I need to clear the air here as I was brought into this discussion from factual comments made at another site. I have no axe to grind with you and did not attack you or your car. I merely mentioned a few items that were sticking points because some folks were trying to help create an urban legend of this car at 2 other sites. First, congratulations on buying a beautiful car. I would love to own it myself. As I said elsewhere, the car is a beauty, and is a very nice restoration. The car has been discussed at great length at two other sites over the last couple of years. I was asked by one of the large auction companies to verify the authenticity of this car in particular, not whether or not an L72 could have existed. I told them what we knew as fact, not opinion about this car, and they declined the option to add it to one of their premier events.

The other car that you mentioned from another thread was previously part of the GM captured test fleet as I recall. I never saw the car, nor did anyone else for that matter. Only the dataplate exists today. If that car existed, it would not have been a production line vehicle. Could the skunk works have put something like this car together, sure. That does not make it a production car in any way. You are correct that some plants did not use the 4D to identify the Z24 package. I know Alan. I do not know Bill, never met him. I think that I am probably a pretty well respected nobody when it comes to the big cars, but I'll let others comment on that. I do know quite a bit about the big cars from 1960-1970, and the 3 years of the Z24 cars (67-68-69) in particular. I am a highly regarded technical source on the big cars with a few National Organizations or Clubs. I am a VCCA Senior judge and have been Chief Judge at several National events over these many years. I have also Judged as a Team Captain at many AACA, NIA, and Late Great National meets, so my judging credentials are pretty solid I think.

Now, back to your car. I have not seen the car in person, no. I have, however, viewed many detailed pics of the car before and during restoration though. I will not get into the many suppositions and &quot;might-have-beens&quot; about whether or not an L72 could have existed as you mention. I will keep things factual about this car. As Warren stated, that car fooled several judges. If <span style="font-style: italic">&quot;the well respected experts who have actually seen the car seem to agree&quot;</span> proclaimed it is &quot;the real deal and correct&quot; knew some basic things about the big cars, they would have known, just as several of us do, that the car was a total fabrication. While I respect their knowledge on the Camaros, Chevelles, Corvettes, and Novas, they missed some very blatant things that would have told them that the car was not as it was made to appear. Several items have already been pointed out here in this thread. The tach, the T400 code on the cowl tag (ALL L-72's were 4 speed cars until 1969 in the big cars), etc. When A.O. Smith or Budd company made the frames for these cars, they would install the production cross-member brackets on the frames. Those brackets would handle 3 speed, powerglide, or 4 speed applications. The ONLY time a car had the second set of cross-member brackets installed on it was on a T400 car, and they were added by the line employees as the car came down the line. That was the reason for the option code being on the cowl tag. Your car has both the code and those brackets, therefore, it cannot have been a real L-72 car, or even a 4 speed car for that matter. The face of the tach has been modified changing the red line. That tach was originally not even a 427 tach as it had the lower yellow and red lines. There are documented cases of a few 427 cars with 396 and lower tachs in them, so that in itself is not a big deal. That fact that someone changed the length and the colors of those lines is however.

I will be happy to speak with you privately on some other issues, but that is all I will discuss here.

Donny

[Kurt S]

The guy who had the 67 L72 experimental car was John Hinckley, aka JohnZ. It's nice to at least correctly attribute it to the right person.

[aawtech]

Agreed Kurt! Thanks for putting that out there.

Donny

[kwhizz]

Donny...........Thanks for your input!!............Those dam facts always get in the way.....LOL

[92646]

I almost bought that car at the auction because my Daughter was with me and she thought it looked like the car in the TV show &quot;Supernatural&quot;. She thought it would be fun to drive to high school.

[mrays]

This car is now for sale in Hemmings for $275K so it must be real! It has one of the longest writeups I've ever seen and is quite an entertaining read. For all the facts pointing out why it's real, the TH400 code on the Trim Tag, the repainted tach yellow &amp; red lines and the TH400 transmission crossmember brackets are never mentioned.

[aawtech]

I guess Ivan didn't buy my details and facts. Some folks will continue to drink the Kool-Aid even when they know how bad it is for you. Like I said, not only is is not an L72, it's not a 4 speed car either. One thing I did not even address is that while I did acknowledge that he was correct regarding the fact that a couple of plants did not use the &quot;4D&quot; on the tag, unfortunately, the plant where his car was built, did use it, so the fact that there is no 4D on his cowl tag eliminates this car even being a real Z24 car on top of it all.

Donny

[TAR6569]

http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/carsforsale/chevrolet/impala/1663553.html

vin 168877L166557

[69hurstSC]

I know the NCRS Historical Document Services doesn't address Impala's, but wouldn't records exist as to how this car was ordered potentially?

[aawtech]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 69hurstSC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know the NCRS Historical Document Services doesn't address Impala's, but wouldn't records exist as to how this car was ordered potentially? </div></div>

No, not unless you had the docs from when the car was new. Even if he did have docs, they would show that the car is a fraud, so the paper would conveniently disappear I'm sure.

[Bill Pritchard]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It has one of the longest writeups I've ever seen and is quite an entertaining read. For all the facts pointing out why it's real, the TH400 code on the Trim Tag, the repainted tach yellow &amp; red lines and the TH400 transmission crossmember brackets are never mentioned. </div></div>

What comes to mind for me is the old adage &quot;if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$hit&quot;.

[PeteLeathersac]

Pure BS fraud cars are not the same as cars w/ facts being debated by the genuine enthusiasts and it's just plain wrong how innocent names get dragged into these stories and schemes.
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/bs.gif
~ Pete

[92646]

The car would have been better off being driven to my Daughter's high school every once in awhile.

[twertsy]

That has GOT to be one of the worst written &quot;for-sale ad&quot; I've ever read. I think I've said this before but when you make people's head hurt wile reading your description, it really does take away from it's credibility. I think it may have been written by the owner of the '69 L-72 SS 4-spd I was chasing!

[iluv69s]

Is this the car that was in the collection in Vegas?? But i think I remember that was an L-89 car?? probably wasnt a 67 I guess?? Was it called the Imperial collection I think? I believe it was in the basement of one of the casinos... not the same car I guess...?????

[68l30]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iluv69s</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is this the car that was in the collection in Vegas?? But i think I remember that was an L-89 car?? probably wasnt a 67 I guess?? Was it called the Imperial collection I think? I believe it was in the basement of one of the casinos... not the same car I guess...????? </div></div>

I think that was the Ash Gold 68.....It was from the Cleveland area years ago.


BIG

[novadude]

Geez... that ad!

A whole lot of his &quot;undisputed facts&quot; sure do get &quot;disputed&quot; by the REAL experts that know the car is a fraud! LOL

[aawtech]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 68l30</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iluv69s</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is this the car that was in the collection in Vegas?? But i think I remember that was an L-89 car?? probably wasnt a 67 I guess?? Was it called the Imperial collection I think? I believe it was in the basement of one of the casinos... not the same car I guess...????? </div></div>

I think that was the Ash Gold 68.....It was from the Cleveland area years ago.


BIG </div></div>

Yep, That was Bill Mc Call's car. It was a beautiful car, but not real. Supposedly Dealer installed heads. He also did a real 1968 Gotto Blue L72 4speed Biscayne that sold in Kissimmee about 6 years ago for almost 200K. Check out the current discussion over at Impalass427.com on the 67 car. Pretty interesting.

Donny

[kwhizz]

Funny how these 1 of 1 cars gain Credibility by some &quot;Drum Beating&quot; by those with vested interests.......And the story go's on for another to pop up at some time in the future........

[TAR6569]

You will be able to see it on TV crossing the block at Mecum Indy in May.

Among the tidbits from the description:

&quot;Per Chevrolet By The Numbers, there were 11 ID-suffix Special High Performance L72 427/425 HP engines built for the 1967 Passenger Car. The only example known to exist. Gold award at MCACN 2011, score of 992/1000
MCACN judges, including chief judge Bill Braun, state that this engine casting is late 1966, correct for this car&quot;

https://www.mecum.com/lots/SC0517-282484/1967-chevrolet-ss-427/

Seems like he is using the MCACN judging to push the idea that car is real....

[Charley Lillard]

They don't claim it is real though.

[marxjunk]

ive never really noticed a sway bar hanging that low..although thinking back, i dont remember ever seeing one on a 67

[Bill Pritchard]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They don't claim it is real though. </div></div>

Who do you mean by &quot;They&quot; Charley? Mecum? No, their listing description does not say specifically that it is real, but as others have said here, all of the alleged 'facts' concerning this car have been presented - for years, and on multiple venues - to lead people to believe that it is real. As I said in a previous post in this thread several years ago, &quot;if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$hit&quot; seems to have been the strategy for peddling the credibility of this car.

[Charley Lillard]

Mecum prints what the owner submits. What &quot;they-owner&quot; submitted does not claim it is factory built. We know it's a fake and based on how &quot;they&quot; worded their ad, they do too.

[DW31S]

I'm not so sure what the judges said at MCACN should be construed as them being &quot;fooled&quot;. (?)
If I'm reading Bill Braun's notes correctly (from an excerpt posted here), he notes that the pad stamp looks to be &quot;correct for this car&quot;------he doesn't say (from what I've read) &quot;this engine was installed at the factory in this car&quot;. We're now down to &quot;picking fly sh!t out of the rice bowl&quot; on this car, but to say that the &quot;judges were fooled&quot; isn't a correct statement (from what has been presented here). I get that the car is a &quot;build&quot;, but claiming to have duped some judges is really twisting things.

[TAR6569]

I was under the impression that the judges thought the car was the real deal. The guy who normally judges the fullsize stuff and is truly knowledgeable on those cars couldn't make the show. Had he been there, the judging results would have been much different.

[442w30]

Gosh, is that one fuzzy description. Whoever wrote that prob is a spin doctor in DC.

[TAR6569]

LOL got that right. I've talked to a couple of people who weren't familiar with the car and after reading the auction description, they thought it was real.

If they know it's a clone, then they should have the description clearly state that. It's their auction, they can or should edit descriptions to make them more clear and less vague if they know the car is a clone.

I bet some of the people bidding on that car at the auction will think it's now a clone.

[mssl72]

Interesting that they refer to Chevrolet By the Numbers. I don't have my Colvin book in front of me, but didn't the book say something more like; There were 11 L72 engines built, but no record of any ever being installed.? It seems they might be twisting that a little bit.

[70 Forest Green Zee]

For any of you that are interested I think this car will be crossing the block at the Mecum auction in Indy on Friday May 19

https://www.mecum.com/lots/SC0517-282484/1967-chevrolet-ss-427/

[kwhizz]

Careful wording and someone will buy it and think they got the Holy Grail car..........Just like the 1 of 1 Black Nova............

[Lee Stewart]

This car was offered for sale at Mecum's May 2013 auction. It had a high bid of $120,000 with no sale.