1969 (COPO?) Camaro Information Search!

[twertsy]

Hello everyone, newcomer here. My uncle claims he bought a brand new blue 69 Camaro, with an all aluminum 427 from Casey Chevrolet in Newport News, VA in the fall of 1969. It was subsequently stolen in Feb/Mar. of 1970 on route 64 near the Hampton Coliseum, never to be seen again. His health is failing now but he can't get that car out of his head. So, that brings me here to see what I can find out and perhaps, at the very minimum, get this off his mind. I'm working with the following assumptions:
1. What he says is true;
2. An all Aluminum 427 was only found in the COPO Camaro;

Here's what I've found out to date:
1. Due to a house fire, he has no records (title, etc..)
2. Casey Chevrolet has no records older than 10 years;
3. I cannot reach, nor get an email reply from ANYONE at either the VA State Police nor the Newport News Police to get VIN / other info from the police reports, assuming they still exist;
4. The registry has no record of a COPO being sold <span style="font-weight: bold">new</span> from Casey Chevrolet;
5. More aluminum 427s were in fact produced and purchased, not necessarily in COPOs.

Anyone who might have information / suggestions for me would be greatly appreciated!!! Feel free to email me at [email protected]

[John]

Todd,

Welcome to the site. There is alot of good info here.... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif

Where in Va. are you located?

[John]

If you dad still remembers what insurance company he had used.... maybe still uses
... they may have a record of the vin if it was insured thru them.

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif

[twertsy]

From Northern VA, just south of DC. On the Insurance........As I was typing the post I thought of that! I'm on it............

[William]

All 69 ZL1 Camaro VINs are known. The initial order of 50 cars included two shades of blue: Dusk Blue [dark] and Le Mans Blue [light]. Of those, 30 were 4 speeds, 20 automatic. It would be a great help if your uncle remembered the exact color and transmission.

Although those 50 went to one dealer many ended up being re-distributed by Chevrolet to other dealers. They were expensive and slow to sell so a few were involved in further dealer exchanges. These were not always recorded. So it is possible one of them ended up at Casey Chev.

Need more info.

[twertsy]

I hear that William. Only started the in-depth search yesterday. I'm trying to speak to Mr. Casey himself to see if he remembers actually having one, and selling it. I'll get the insurance info (if he remembers) and determine the tranny type / blue paint shade.

Believe it or not, I really hope it's not sitting in someone's collection. I'd hate to find the car for him and have it taken away from someone who acquired it honestly, especially given what they cost to add to a collection.

[John]

...If your uncle was the original owner .... and the car was stolen ..... &quot;HE&quot; should be able to contact Newport News... and possibly Hampton, Va. police department and get a copy of the police report ... if one was made.
.... ( I would request an NICB Report )
Note: I-64 and Hampton Coliseum are located in Hampton, Va. ..... Not Newport News.
.....I would get him to request it from both localities.
Hope that helps. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[John]

Here is some good info... if you have not seen it.

http://www.camaros.org/copo.shtml

Good Luck <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[John]

There was a blue 1969 ZL1 camaro that was RAFFLED off several years ago.... You paid $50 for a poster of the car and got a raffle ticket. The car was in Lynchburg, Va. and a Chevrolet dealer/collector in Indiana or Illinois puchased the car from the guy in Lynchburg and later sold the car to some guys in Florida that ended up raffling the car off.

.... Anyone else remember that car? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif

[Charley Lillard]

That was # 18. I got it from the guy that won it.

[William]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: twertsy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hear that William. Only started the in-depth search yesterday. I'm trying to speak to Mr. Casey himself to see if he remembers actually having one, and selling it. I'll get the insurance info (if he remembers) and determine the tranny type / blue paint shade.

Believe it or not, I really hope it's not sitting in someone's collection. I'd hate to find the car for him and have it taken away from someone who acquired it honestly, especially given what they cost to add to a collection. </div></div>

There are several Dusk Blue and Le Mans Blue ZL1s that have not been located. I guarantee you that all the VINs have been and continue to be checked for title and registration. In those days cars were not always titled or registered, race cars in particular. So a few could still exist on old open titles or even MSO.

If your uncle was paid off on the insurance claim he has no rights to the car-he effectively sold it. If it was later recovered and the remains sold or junked he would not be aware of it. A few stolen ZL1s were later recovered and still exist. Cars sold at auction are thoroughly vetted and have to have current title and registration. Buying a collector car privately on an old or open title is asking for trouble.

[69PACE]

Go to the Town Hall or County Records dept (maybe the land office in some places)where your Uncle lived when he owned the vehicle and search the property tax records. The vin number will be in the books as part of the grand list if he paid taxes on her. If you are lucky the records have been converted to digital format, if not microfiche, or a very large heavy handwritten book.

[twertsy]

Ok, got to speak with my uncle. It was dark blue and standard 4 speed. As he recalls, his insurance had dropped him before he bought the car because he wrecked his 'Cuda. He says there were drag marks where they must have winched it into / onto a trailor. It was locked and he says you had to put it in reverse to get the key out of the ignition and that would lock up the tranny. That sound right?

[PxTx]

The lack of insurance has me scratching my head. This car was purchased without a loan? Who did he notify when the car was stolen, police etc?

That was one of the most expensive Camaros in 1969. Any insight on why he chose to spend so much over a regular BB Camaro? I love the story Ken Barnheart tells about how he chose to buy his ZL1.

[William]

There were six Dusk Blue 4-speed ZL1 Camaros.

Of those, three still exist. One of them, #18, was sold new in VA. The original owner had engine problems resulting in warranty cancellation. GMAC repossessed the car. The second owner repaired the engine and retained the car for some time, 10-15 years. The other two have histories that rule them out.

Three cars are not known to exist. #19 124379N609530 no records, #21 124379N609651 no records but the original engine block was located in AZ. #24 124379N609838 was transferred to Merollis Chev in Detroit with four others. All five were stolen. None of them were registered to insurance companies when I inquired and were likely recovered. #24 was last registered in MA in 1973 but recorded as junked.

#43 is a Le Mans Blue 4-speed and is registered to an insurance company. Sold new at Hauser Chevrolet, Bethlehem PA. Stolen in 1972.

[twertsy]

So, do you think I'm on a wild goose chase? Or, is it possibly not a true COPO but rather one the dealer modified by purchasing one of the 427s from GM?

[William]

When it comes to ZL1 Camaros it is not only a wild goose chase but and old one. The VINs have been public knowledge for over 30 years. At one time it was easy to get registration info-send $3 and they sent it. Not so easy these days.

It is possible he had a dealer modified car but by '69 Chevrolet had strongly advised dealers to discontinue the practice. He may have had an L72 [iron 427] COPO Camaro.

It is also possible that he had a real ZL1 but the memory of how it was lost are a bit fuzzy.

[twertsy]

Just spoke to him again. Little clarification, hi &quot;thinks&quot; he remembers losing his insurance while he owned the car. After 7 tickets for speeding.

He says he recalls two of them on the showroom floor, the other one silver. The window sticker said &quot;all aluminum 427/435 horse.&quot;. It also had 1/4 mi specs, something like 10.6@135mph. Says it said that right on the sticker. He doesn't remember exactly but is pretty sure it was $4700 for the car, financed by Casey so I'd assume GMAC.

[John]

Did he race it at any local dragstrips?

.... after all.. that's why they built them.....

The old Suffolk Raceway is only about 30 miles from Newport News, Va. .....
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/3gears.gif <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/3gears.gif

[twertsy]

Next time I speak with him I will inquire. I KNOW he raced it on the street.

[William]

ZL1s had a list price of almost $7300; dealer invoice was $5745. The #8 ZL1, Cortez Silver auto, was registered in VA at one time.

No ZL1 Camaro was that fast off the showroom floor. Dick Harrell used the #5 car for some magazine testing. With headers, bars and slicks 11.64/122.

[twertsy]

Interesting on the drag times William, but I'm just relaying an old man's memory, and he seems to remember that most clearly, says they both had the same drag info on the stickers.

The price he's less clear on, but thinks it was $4700. Now that seems odd to me when I know what the COPOs went for (as you said), and what other models went for, nothing fits that price range......

[x77-69z28]

also the 427-435 was a corvette motor and wasnt aluminum.

[twertsy]

So then perhaps I am looking for a dealer modified car?

[L78racer]

Could this be a car (ZL1 or COPO or a transplant) that was raced or sponsored in some way by the selling dealer?
Then put in the showroom for sale with ET's etc. displayed for prospective buyers but with any lettering removed.

[twertsy]

He remembers purchasing it in september of 69 so I wouldn't think so?

[Unreal]

I wouldn't put too much faith in the &quot;Horsepower rating&quot; to determine the engine. Remember GM rated the L-72 at 425hp, and Yenko advertised it as 450hp. A little marketing license.

[William]

The L72 was initially rated at 450 hp as noted on the 1966 Corvette dealer order form. Some L72 cars were built with a 450 hp air cleaner label. Changed to 425 hp later in the model year.

[twertsy]

Well all, I think I'm down to my last option. GMAC says they purge records every 10 yrs, as does Casey Chev. State police &quot;says&quot; they do as well but I REALLY doubt that, they just don't want to do a little work. Hampton police will search for me IF I can narrow down the date it was stolen. So, to the library microfiche machine I go. Gotta search the papers from that time.

[John]

You might also check with your uncle.... get the name and address and time period that he lived in Newport News and check with the city ...personal property tax .... there may be a record there... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif

[Unreal]

William, are you saying some of the 69 Yenkos were rated at 450HP from the factory?

[William]

Nope. But he obviously knew they were rated @450hp at one time and felt justified in using the number in his marketing info.

Those were the old gross HP days anyways. Add the &quot;as-installed&quot; equipment [fan, alternator, etc.] and you have net hp, the real number. I recall maybe 10 years ago one of the mags did a feature on a L72 clone build-up and it just made the 425 number. Maybe the 450 was never real.

I'm aware that with today's rings and oil [and maybe cement pumped through the ports] an L72 can do better.

[twertsy]

Ok folks. Been a while. He found a couple pics. Notice the one where there appears to be id3ntical cars. His buddy bought the same color camaro with a 305? And dress3d it up to look exactly like my uncles. He would drive around and set up races then retu4n for the bad boy. He says no one ever suspected a thing!
http://www.yenko.net/attachments/usergals/2012/12/full-13224-1938-img_20121010_00276.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/attachments/usergals/2012/12/full-13224-1939-img_20121010_00277.jpg

[al8apex]

I had a 307 LeMans blue 69 (my 1st 69) in 1973 ... vette rallys though, had the white pin stripes too (no shackles, we called the shackles hillbilly hi-jackers ... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif ) ... cool pics

[twertsy]

He also mentioned that he removed the valve covers one time and &quot;super high performance&quot; was stamped on the heads. Does that mean anything to you guys?

[neresto]

Sounds like an L72 copo with HI PERF cast in the iron heads, no such thing on the alum. heads. The $4700 sticker price range is correct for a iron block copo.

[neresto]

I see bait and switch street racing writen all over those 2 cars. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif

[twertsy]

Thanks neresto, but still a pretty rare car right?

[neresto]

You were a lucky individual to have the privilege to drive/own any 427 Camaro or Chevelle in 1969 as well as in 2012! Judging by the photo it was certainly an original copo and not converted to a 427 car.

[Justbad Joe]

http://www.yenko.net/attachments/usergals/2012/12/full-13224-1939-img_20121010_00277.jpg
Anyone notice an X11 to boot? What color interior did it have? Was it deluxe?
Joe

[twertsy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neresto</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sounds like an L72 copo with HI PERF cast in the iron heads, no such thing on the alum. heads. The $4700 sticker price range is correct for a iron block copo.</div></div>

I've spoken with him twice since your post. There are a LOT of things he's &quot;foggy&quot; on but the &quot;all aluminum engine&quot; isn't one of them. He's very adament about that. But, as you folks point out, there's a lot of points contradicting that. However, as you can see by the pic, we now have the plate number and the fuzz is on the case.

[firstgenaddict]

Lemans blue X11 Style trim car. No D80, sleeper from hell...

[supercomp 8.90]

boy those pictures sure look like glacier blue to me, one of my favorite 69 colors!

[William]

It could not have been a ZL1. None of Gibbs cars had style trim; of the remaining 19 only 2 were Le Mans Blue. One is an RS in near-perfect original condition; the other was an automatic sold new in Canada. Both still exist. ZL1s stickered for well over $7000.

$4700 is way too high for a modestly equipped L72 COPO. Most stickered under $4000.

[Mr70]

I have to chuckle,as we had a guy who did that here in 1979/80 near us.
He had 2 identically prepared Firebirds.
Goaded with one,then switched &amp; raced with the other.
It didn't last 2 summers,as we started to realize once he won a race,he never came back to collect his winnings.He always had a 3rd party there to collect....odd.
That was his first mistake &amp; started many asking questions why he did that.
HollyWood nights was showing @ the Sky-Hi drive in one night,everyone was amped up...he sets up a race with Chris,a guy from the next town over who owned a radical lil Vega wagon with a V-8 installed.
Chris heard about Billy &amp; was suspicious too,so told his girl to take her lipstick and draw a line in the rear wheel well,before he left the drive in that night.
Sure enough,he pulls up to the starting line an hour later in a firebird w/no lipstick.
As they are preparing to line up @ the starting line in front of Dairy Queen,Chris turns off his Vega in front of everyone,starts swearing and walks in front of Billys head lights and yells he needs a jump.
Billy just sat there in his seat,in front of a crowd of kids,telling/yelling for him to give him a jump.
He wouldn't do it.
Knowing full well if he did,he'd expose what was really under the hood,which I think was an extrude honed 6.6 W72 w/other mods.
He drove off the starting line,and never came back.
We all figured he switched cars,but stayed out of it &amp; let the guys who raced him get their own justice out of him.
He did get the shit beat outta him by someone a few weeks after that,but we never knew if it was because of this,or something else.
I never saw Billy or the car again after the summer of '81.

[twertsy]

Funny, every time I speak with him, he comes up with some little things he remembers. Now, it's been 40+ years, and he was diagnosed with pretty bad diabetes upon his return from Nam. In my family, diabetes almost always becomes alzheimer's. Having been through that with other family members, he doesn't seem so stricken yet so I try to get him to tell me the same thing he remembers on several occasions before asking y'alls insight. So please, bear with me. I can't thank you folks enough for your insights, knowledge and friendliness! Hopefully the police will dig up a report and we'll get the vin. That'll go a long way. Merry Christmas.

[Vern B]

You might ask your uncle if the $ 4700 he said he paid was net of trade?

You mentioned he had a Cuda. $ 3000 would be tough to make up with a Cuda trade, but anything is possible. He might remember if a trade was part of the deal.

[twertsy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vern B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You might ask your uncle if the $ 4700 he said he paid was net of trade?

You mentioned he had a Cuda. $ 3000 would be tough to make up with a Cuda trade, but anything is possible. He might remember if a trade was part of the deal. </div></div>

Next time I speak to him, I'll inquire. Although, I believe he had and sold the cuda before he went to Nam. I'm pretty sure he bought the Camaro only a couple days after returning in '69 with no trade.

[RS69]

There was a silver 69 copo iron block car sold at Casey. It's about 3 miles from me now, older restoration and sitting in a garage. More than likely your dads car was a copo with iron block. Good luck with your search. I've been looking for the past 5 years for the yellow 69 yenko camaro my dad owned back in 84. He sold to a guy in Hampton then from there I loose it. I've been trying to dig up info but no luck.

[twertsy]

That would make a lot of sense. He says that when he bought it there was a silver one in the showroom right next to his......