ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson

[Charley Lillard]

Anyone know the details ?

[PeteLeathersac]

No real details but here's the BJ link...
http://www.barrett-jackson.com/application/onlinesubmission/predetails.aspx?cid=7961&aid=466

ZL1 #48
VIN 124379N618902
4-Spd.
Lemans Blue

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[quik9r]

Car was at show in Toronto last March for the first time. I have known the guy owned the car for years and never talked much about it.

[camaromb]

It is another long lost missing ZL1. It has never shown up on US title searches done decades ago by the guys who were seriously searching for these cars. It was in a body shop near Toronto a few years ago. I was told it had no trim tag and the body sheet metal dates were in the 24th week of '69 or so. I think this one needs some serious inspection.

[Kurt S]

I concur, I heard it had those issues. What was there to start with?
Interesting wording:
&quot;The VIN# designates this car to be #48 .....&quot;

[Charley Lillard]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: quik9r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Car was at show in Toronto last March for the first time. I have known the guy owned the car for years and never talked much about it. </div></div>

Who owned it or do you know who restored it ?

[quik9r]

Third party chatter,speculation, and hearsay from “some guy in a body shop” may not be a fair way to judge the car in question. Some of the information posted has originated from a source who has other issues with the owner, and is factually wrong. It is not always those who think they are&quot; in the know &quot;that have access to rare and elite cars. We all have a common interest in bringing real, rare cars into the spotlight. What is puzzling is how some cars with real issues dare not be criticized, yet new finds are dismissed so casually.

Quik9r

[camaromb]

This is the same &quot;third parter chatter&quot; and &quot;hearsay&quot; that led to the 5 ZL1 Camaros that were registered by one owner one the same day, the questionable yellow L89 Camaro, numerous rebody issue Copo cars, etc. all occurring in Canada. This car is not casually dismissed but seriously questioned because of its inspection by &quot;some guy in a body shop&quot;. I bet it was in more than one body shop so how is the source who has issues with the car owner the only one who may have seen the car? At issue is the car itself. We hope is a real rare car, that just has not always been the case with some of the rare Canadian cars appearing in recent years with no real histories at all.

It all comes down to due diligence; if the body has March/earlier '69 not June '69 dates, the trim tag is real, etc. then this will be just idle chatter. Any prospective buyer will want to verify the true condition of the # 48 ZL1 Camaro in question with a qualified inspection. That is the only way to end all the idle chatter and set the facts straight.

[bergy]

Since my hobby is tracking down old owners/histories of cars - I may be able to add something to this thread. The Canadian guys should chime in also. I've imported &amp; owned a couple of Canadian BB Pace Cars. IMO, Canadian cars should be very desirable because of the rock solid GM documentation (it's like an NICB report that includes all OE options) combined with the Canadian ownership trail that follows the car. The last car that I purchased from Canada came with government documents that indicated the names, addresses, and dates of every past owner. The car was sold new in Quebec and later found its way to an owner in Ontario. The government documents followed the ownership between provinces. With this ownership trail in hand, it was easy to track down the old owners &amp; get statements regarding their experiences with the car. IMO this ZL1 car should show up at auction with complete ownership history (if the government policy of tracking previous owners hasn't changed in the past few years).

[William]

#48 was not shipped from Norwood to Canada so there will be no record of it with GM of Canada.

I'm one of the people that was chasing ZL1s years ago. Despite many inquiries [including NCIC] by several individuals over a 10-15 year period no US registration was ever located for this car. Not completely unusual for the time-some states didn't title cars in those days, some registered cars by county. Dealers could sell a car on MSO to racers who may have never registered it.

As camaromb has stated cars with &quot;Canadian Docs&quot; have become suspect. Several people have copies of ALL CDN shipping records; cars are being re-created from virtually nothing.

Docs notwithstanding the car has to speak for itself. I am looking forward to seeing it at B-J.

[bergy]

Good point William &amp; well taken - It should have a Canadian registration history and Canadian import docs though. Even if it wasn't registered in Canada, it should have import docs from crossing the border. Such a rare car without any history would be a little suspect in my mind no matter what the car looks like today. It would be cool if quik9r could provide the community with some of the background before the auction - it might even encourage more potential buyers to be at the auction (or bid on-line). Heck, I'm interested. :-).

GM of Canada used to send a copy of an entire page of computer print out with every car that they supplied documentation for. I know that I have a few pages (maybe 40 or 50 cars per page)of Canadian imported cars with VINs &amp; all ecl codes. There are some rare cars on there! But a car made up from air, no matter how accurate the resto is, has the same problem - no owners to talk to &amp; verify history.

[PeteLeathersac]

As long as it doesn't need to happen immediately I'm happy to run the VIN history here in Ontario Canada.
If dates don't reach back far enough or names are the same as other suspect air cars we've seen here in the past, looking closely at tags/sheet metal dates etc may accomplish nothing more than seeing how good a job was perhaps done creating it?
If the car was genuine whether the lost/unknown Vin car shipped to Nurse Chev in Whitby Ontario or any other a seller should be standing up crowing about it and supplying all info possible to convince possible buyers, not offering clever descriptions like the BJ info seems to include or working on a placard?

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif
~ Pete

[Charley Lillard]

Just a word of caution to stick to facts in this thread.

Just a word here... Docs from GM of Canada do not include the names of past owners, just the skinny on the car.

[bergy]

Pete - Good idea on the VIN search - also, your PM box is full.

[PeteLeathersac]

To clarify I was referring to the Ontario Ministry of Transportation Vin search which includes owner history known to the system, not GM Canada Vintage services paperwork.
If someone here's already doing/done this please speak up otherwise I'll run the Vin over the next few days and report back w/ the results.
For the record I'm hoping this car proves to be nothing less than absolutely genuine w/ indisputable tags and paperwork also hopefully that any paperwork can determine if it's the missing unknown Vin ZL1 sent to Nurse Chevrolet in Whitby Ontario as a back up motor for the Team Eaton Can-Am effort at the Mosport Canada track or not also if not that it includes new information on this same car.
For those keeping track of relevant dates, the Mosport race was June 01/69 where Eaton and his alloy Chevy McLaren finished 9'th or if the timeline fits better the following year's race was June 14/70 when Eaton DNF'd.

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[njsteve]

Pete, your PM is full. Can you empty your in-box? I have a question for you.

[67BelAir427]

The owner history available from the MTO will show when the car was registered with the Province of Ontario. However, the car could have been in Canada for years prior, so a short MTO history is meaningless as far as &quot;air cars&quot; are concerned. Also, as has been mentioned, if it was not delivered to a Canadian dealer it would have no GM Documentation.Does anyone know where #48 was sold from initially?

[camaromb]

ZL1 # 48 was listed as originally sold at Gibb Chevrolet, LaHarpe, IL

[weranc55]

If I owned a legit zl1 BJ is probable the last place I would take to sell it.

[L78M22Rag]

It will probably end up here after the auction....

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=_M0-xrF2kpA&amp;vq=medium

[quik9r]

Any results from running the vin?

Quik9r

[BARRY]

what about the story of the yellow car the guy said it had a 427 aluninum engine i can not remeber what gm dealer

[supercomp 8.90]

hey guys i did a little digging through my old notes and i have #48 as never licensed, it does not show up as one of the stolen cars it may have been turned into a race car very early.

[camaromb]

Here are pictures of firewall of the car in question. How many things can you see wrong or missing on the March '69 Norwood built ZL1 # 48 firewall???

[camaromb]

Closer pic...

[camaromb]

Another pic...

[camaromb]

Side pic...at least it was blue...

[Carleen]

http://www.camaros.org/images/pages/options/RS_firewall.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/download/Number/33688/filename/ZL148%20driver%20side%20small.jpg

[camaromb]

Ok thats one...RS hosing hole on a non RS car.

[69 Post Sedan]

I might be way off base but is that the original frame to the car? If so, shouldn't it have a proportioning valve metering block for power brakes mounted to the frame?

[camaromb]

The Canadian title history shows the car was registered in 2006 with no prior title history.

Incorrect/missing/questionable firewall items:

- RS hole in non-RS car
- incorrect cowl induction wiring location, not at the Norwood plant dimple location, LA plant had no dimple to locate.
- missing the cowl induction switch wiring clip hole.
- missing the cowl induction relay screw hole.
- missing the wiring gutter screw holes in the face of the vin-stamped cowl panel.
- missing the factory dimples in the face of the vin-stamped cowl panel, below the pass. side washer nozzle area.
- LA typical cowl foam glued to the top of the cowl on both sides, Norwood plant typically glued them to the underside of the cowl panel.
- missing the sealant around the complete heater box and vin stamped area but sealant is evident on the complete firewall seam and driver's side
firewall area.

[bergy]

Canadian guys - what kind of ownership documentation do you have to supply in order to register a car in Canada? Import docs? Sale receipt? Any proof of ownership?

[supercomp 8.90]

looks like a brake drum on the drivers side? i always get spooked out when ever i see the cowl tag pulled resto or not.

[Charley Lillard]

Is there a pic of the vin that ties ZL1 # 48 to these pics ?

[huggerorangez28]

Charley does the vin always appear on the deck pad on a ZL1 motor? is it every by the oil filter like an iron block?

[huggerorangez28]

Charley does the vin always appear on the deck pad on a ZL1 motor? is it every by the oil filter like an iron block?

[quik9r]

Unless there is some way to tie #48 to those exact photo graphs, this could be any Camaro.

Quik9r

[67BelAir427]

This thread is becoming boring. Four pages of posts about how this could not possibly be the rare #48 ZL1 that the authorities lost track of.

I am heading over to the thread about the #30 Dick Harrell Nova. That one is &quot;undocumented at this time&quot; but has three pages of congratulations on such a rare find. I just hope it's not too late to get in on the group hug.

[Charley Lillard]

67Belair427...I posted the # 30 vin pic over on that group hug thread just for you.

[camaromb]

Here is the pic of the stamped numbers in the cowl of the body in question and the vin rubbing from it. There is no way to tell if the numbers are really from ZL1 # 48 without close inspection. We don't know if the numbers were done by the Norwood plant or much more recently. Vin tags certainly can be made and vin #s can be stamped correctly in sheet metal. The trim tag that has been added to this body is a reproduction without the correct body number for ZL1 # 48.

Like the 5 '69 ZL1s that were titled on the same day, it is easy to create titles with no real history in Canada.

If the cowl metal is not factory and the numbers are stamped in it my vote is the numbers are all much more recent additions to a certainly later '69 produced non-ZL1 body.

[camaromb]

Vin rubbing....

[camaromb]

Quik9r,

Yes, this is just any '69 Camaro, it just happens to have the same numbers as ZL1 # 48 stamped in it.

[Charley Lillard]

Do you have a picture of the fake trim tag ?

[iluv69s]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: huggerorangez28</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Charley does the vin always appear on the deck pad on a ZL1 motor? is it every by the oil filter like an iron block? </div></div>


My &quot;original born-with&quot; motor from my ZL-1 #34 had the &quot;original born-with&quot; VIN stamped by the oil filter. Although some cars had them on the deck also.

[quik9r]

Here are the pics in raw steel of the real stamping in. The primered stamping is Not from #48

[quik9r]

I have spoken to the owner of ZL1 # 48 today and would like to share with you his comments.

&quot;The primered car in the picture is not the #48 ZL1.
My car came to Canada in 1982 from a state that required bill of sale for title only.
Canada requires that you have the bill of sale or title, plus a K22 form for entry into Canada.
As seen in the pictures, both were provided to Canadian customs in 1982 with the wrong vin on the paper work 124371N618902
The incorrect digit is one that denotes the model year, and clearly my car is not a 71 Camaro.
If you punch in the wrong VIN the MTO will provide paper work with the correct vin 124379N618902 .That was corrected and verified in 2006.
That is why there is no previous history for the car before 2006. This IS NOT AN AIR CAR.
The rubbing shown is NOT a rubbing from my #48 car. You can note that the stamped VIN numbers are completely different from the primered Camaro photos.
As the current owner/restorer of the #48 car, I have had this car in my possession since 1982.&quot;

Because of the attempts to disprove the authenticity of this car on the SYC the owner is reconsidering offering it for sale at Barrett Jackson at this time.
He is concerned that the value of the car may have been seriously damaged by the postings by Camaromb, as well as other posters who have made unsupported allegations.
He is not prepared to risk a financial loss due to misinformation spread about the car so close to the auction date.
Mark Bulaw, your photos are of the wrong car, your information is incorrect, and your source Bill Rudow has a motive to damage the owner's reputation. People in “glass houses shouldn’t throw stones”.
Suffice to say that there appears to be a concerted effort to bring down the value this car

[bergy]

This is a really important car! Why not just invite the experts to look at it, physical evidence, the resto pictures, the documentation, etc? Posting pics (as always) just leads to more questions - (I can think of a few questions myself based on the latest round of postings - those 2 body stampings should be EXACTLY the same). I don't know who is right &amp; who is wrong - I'd love it if another ZL1 was found!

[William]

When the cars were trucked to the dealership two unique identifying numbers were typed on the transit paperwork. The &quot;serial number&quot; was the partial VIN; the &quot;ident number&quot; was the number on the body tag. Both numbers also appear on the window sticker and shippers' copy. All Fred Gibb Chev ZL1 Camaro paperwork still exists.

The body number shown on the &quot;trim tag&quot; above belongs to LeMans Blue ZL1 Camaro #47 N618713. It is restored and has its original tags; both unique identifying numbers match its paperwork.

ZL1 #48 would have a different number on its original body tag.

[resto4u]

ok lets clarify this info. quikr9 knows the owner of #48 and has proof of owning the car and claims pics from camaromb are not pics of his #48 car. So are we talking about the same car or is there a real #48 and then a #48 made up car. If there are two different cars, people need to know this before it could really be bad for the owner of the real #48.

[Charley Lillard]

Quik9R. I doubt if Bulaw made up the pics-story that he has posted and it appears to be the same vin as your friends. Your friend gave you pics etc to post but no pic of the trim tag that Bulaw says is a fake with the wrong body #. Your friend supplied you info of what is on the tag but not a pic of the tag. William says the tag info you supplied has the wrong body # for that car. Bulaw says the car he has pics of also has the wrong body #. Can you get your friend to give you a real pic of his trim tag ? I asked people early on in this thread to stick to facts because I don't want a innocent car trashed but something is going on here and a pic of that tag should do alot to clearing this up.

[supercomp 8.90]

anybody notice that the hole next to the 9 on the cowl vin is in a different spot on the primered car, also the seam sealer by the heater core area on quick9r's photos looks old to me.

[Fast67VelleN2O]

Wait so now there are <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">TWO</span></span> #48 ZL-1's? Not looking forward to seeing how this is going to turn out.

-Matt

[SuperNovaSS]

I am.


Jason

[camaromb]

Ok, lets review the facts again.. or what I know as facts...

The reported ZL1 # 48 was brought to a bodyshop to be painted. The knowledgeable shop owner noticed that the body sheetmetal was dated much later than the build date of ZL1 # 48. The body to be painted did not have the trim tag. The body had cowl and firewall vin stamps that matched the ZL1 # 48 serial number.

The owner of the car supplied pictures of the body to the bodyshop (pictures that I have previously posted).

The car owner supplied copies of the notarized Georgia Bill of Sale showing a purchase of a 1969 Camaro serial # 124371N618902 on 5/29/1982 for $ 100.00

The car owner also supplied the Canada Customs form dated 5/31/1982 showing 1969 Camaro serial # 124371N618902 reported with a customs appraised value of $ 100.00

The car owner supplied the Canadian Vehicle information package dated 12/01/06 showing 1969 Camaro serial # 124379N618902 registered on 11/30/2006 to the car owner and no prior history.

I did not post pictures of these documents but they are available.
Why the car owner supplied these pictures and documents to the bodyshop owner is a mystery.

Charlie asked what was known about ZL1 # 48, this is what we have from information the current owner and car painter supplied. As I stated before, anyone interested in the car needs to have a thorough inspection of the car itself. All the matters is what we have here of the original ZL1 # 48. At this point we can't be sure what is real I guess.

[GreenLS6]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: supercomp 8.90</div><div class="ubbcode-body">anybody notice that the hole next to the 9 on the cowl vin is in a different spot on the primered car, also the seam sealer by the heater core area on quick9r's photos looks old to me. </div></div>


I just took a measurement from the hole to the 9, then take that measurment it equals the distance from the 9 to the 1... Go to the other pic and do the same-- Not even close. Those ARE NOT the same car Cowl pics.

[Lynn]

Did this car have a tach? If so, did it also have console gauges?

[iluv69s]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lynn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did this car have a tach? If so, did it also have console gauges? </div></div>

Weren't the first 50 Gibb cars pretty bare bones?? (less car #3)... no console cars.

[Lynn]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: camaromb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another pic... </div></div>
Here is why I am asking. If that is the car in question, and if #48 had no console guages, and #48 had a tach (yeah, I know, three &quot;ifs&quot;) then there is a problem. Should have a 17/32 hole directly under the fuseblock hole for the tach wire.

Like this:

[William]

All 50 Gibb ZL1s had standard warning lights, a speedometer and a fuel gauge. No gauges, clock, radio.

Just read everything on this car and as a new member and neutral person I think camaromb answered his own question. Since 2 cars have the same VIN on the firewall he gave 8 reasons why the picture he posted is fake. quik9r, supercomp 8.90 and greenLS6 show why the other is more than likely real with the original seam sealer. camaromb also states &quot; It has never shown up on US title searches done decades ago by the guys who were seriously searching for these cars.&quot; Well it makes sense that with the 1 mistakenly typed in the title where the 9 should be anyone searching for the VIN with a 9 would never ever find it. Yes thousands if not tens of thousands of titles were typed in wrong upon ownership changes by state employees who didn't care (its just a job)or double check everything they typed and with no computers it just went into a file.
The owner has said in another listing here that the experts are more then welcome to look at everything in person yet no one has gone.
&quot;Bad News sells&quot; Are people jealous that someone else found the car? You should be happy that it has been found rather then bad mouthing it when you haven't even looked at it.
Maybe I am missing something on this site, why all the negativity? Its not worth anything, just my 2 cents worth.

[Charley Lillard]

Did you miss where it was pointed out that the trim tag info he supplied had the wrong body # ? We asked him to post a pic of the trim tag but we never heard back.

[Fast67VelleN2O]

I have a feeling the owner registered another user name.

I am NOT THE OWNER. Just confirms the negative attitude on this site. I am sorry I joined. I will unregister as a member.

[Ryan1969Chevelle]

My cup is half full.....I have seen very few negative posts on this website <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/youguysrock.gif

Ryan <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[quik9r]

How many trim tags of any ZL1 have been posted on this site?

Quik9r

[Charley Lillard]

What does that really have to do with anything ? Here is what prompted alot of questions. You posted this pic as the info on the trim tag. That is the wrong body # and it belongs to another ZL1 that has it's trim tag. We asked why and a asked for a real pic of the trim tag since the info you gave is wrong. Nobody has ever attempted to clear it up. Why is that ? If I had the real ZL1 I would sure want this straightened out. Can you answer that ? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2013/07/full-23-5505-dsc05656.jpg

[Charley Lillard]

To further think on this. The wrong body # would indicate a fake trim tag. A pic of this cars trim tag would go a long long way in proving if the car is real. Or if it is a fake trim tag it would go a long long way in making the car suspect. It can't be that hard to understand why we are asking.

[Mr70]

Because that makes way too much sense.

[PeteLeathersac]

Not necessarily this one but the short form version of many situations like this is often because the truth hurts.
Sorry if anyone's ever unjustly offended here but as with this thread and others past, the opportunity is given to present info w/ facts and details to irrefutably support a supercar as genuine or not.
Not always but unanswered questions are often an indicator that all is not well (or as hoped) and those facing negative facts sometimes chose to not continue preferring instead to leave things undone than allowing negatives of any vehicle be known.
Although an informal process, facts debated on threads here arriving at positive verifications go a long way with many serious about real supercars also worth much more hereafter than fancier looking paper verifications.
So, if this car is the real ZL1 #48 and all's a simple mix up, by God man get the Trim Tag and any other info that can be laid out to prove all is just...ASAP!

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[camaromb]

I don't think 2 Camaro bodies with the ZL1 # 48 vin # stamped in them (pics supplied by owner) is a simple mix up, but maybe that is just being negative.

[Ryan1969Chevelle]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: camaromb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think 2 Camaro bodies with the ZL1 # 48 vin # stamped in them (pics supplied by owner) is a simple mix up, but maybe that is just being negative. </div></div>

Tee Hee, Good one.

I am a non negative guy, but I really enjoy good sarcasm.

Ryan

[Lynn]

I can buy the story about an incorrectly typed vin on the title.

I don't get:
1. Trim tag with the bdy number from another known car,
2. Two shells with the same vin stamped on them.

[PeteLeathersac]

The mix up was referring to if the real car exists and got caught up in the haze of this thread also another car(s) appearing w/ the same Vin.
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[eanfld]

If the car has the wrong body number then the trim tag is probably a repro and a new one can easily be made. My question is if the VIN is on the dash and firewall/cowl and seem original as pointed out by a couple of people then do the VINs mean nothing? Why is the removable tag so important over the VINs? I restored a 55 Ford Conv and lost the door tag over the several years it took and had a new one made and it didn't matter since the original VIN was on the frame. Thanks in advance to anyone who can explain this to me about Chevys

[William]

For 67 &amp; some 69 Camaros build configuration is included in the stampings on the body tag. Performance options are part of that info. Since most don’t have factory paperwork after 40+ years the tag is all-important in verifying that a car is in fact a real SS or Z/28. As you can imagine the tags are often messed with. Years ago it was common to swap them from one car to another [nearly always detectable] and for the last 25 years reproduction tags have been available. Those also are usually easily detected. This is a big problem in the Camaro world and it has resulted in general paranoia over ALL body tags, even those that have no build configuration info including all ‘68s, ‘69s built at LA and early Norwood ‘69s.

However none of this applies to the Gibb Chev ZL1s. They were ordered and confirmed in one batch so the body numbers on the tags are in sequence: 222001-222049 with one anomaly. Each body number is tied to the VIN of the car and all those are known. All the paperwork for the Gibb ZL1s exists so the correct body number for #48 is known-and it is incorrect on the tag that was seen on the car.

If #48 really was found the OE tag was gone suggesting the car was raced [and heavily modified] and little of the original car may remain. It will have to be examined by someone who knows what to look for.

ZL1s are very valuable and regularly sell for $500,000+. What is going on here is the hobby policing itself.

[robber6910]

I guess my question is why does that Georgia bill of sale not have the previous or buying owners names on it? Also there are different hand writings on that document. The amount sold for (One Hundred dollars in script), the model name and VIN (coupe 2dr Camaro, 124371Nxxxxxx). Also why is the model year and manufacturer names typed in and not the model info and vin? Why did the bill of sale need to be notarized and signed by a witness?? Sadly the notary info is not on that doc (seal and expiration of notaries license). A simple hand written note stating that the car was sold for $100.00 would've looked much more legit.

[BJCHEV396]

ZL1 #48 will be sold November 2nd,no reserve,at the Toronto Fall Classic Car Auction.For more info www.ccpauctions.com (http://www.ccpauctions.com)

[Charley Lillard]

Which ZL1 ?

[Ryan1969Chevelle]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which ZL1 ? </div></div>

Maybe it is ZL1 48.5....

I hope to attend the auction to catch the action.

Ryan

[PeteLeathersac]

Looking forward to some clarity w/ what comes next especially hoping this or any car is the real #48 hidden behind this whole mess!
This car going to auction before the facts are in seems to suggest less of what we may hope as again if all was positive wouldn't presenting it here first significantly benefit car and value?
If this or any car included original body/cowl stampings/Vin tag but trim tag lost to time, considering the values of any ZL1's of late why not just toss any fake trim tag and step proudly forward?
Best of luck to all!
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[1969L78Nova]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ryan1969Chevelle</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which ZL1 ? </div></div>

Maybe it is ZL1 48.5....

I hope to attend the auction to catch the action.

Ryan </div></div>

I have it figured out...The BJ Auction is selling the ZEEL1 #48 and the Canadian auction is selling the ZEDL1 #48

[Ryan1969Chevelle]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1969L78Nova</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ryan1969Chevelle</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which ZL1 ? </div></div>

Maybe it is ZL1 48.5....

I hope to attend the auction to catch the action.

Ryan </div></div>

I have it figured out...The BJ Auction is selling the ZEEL1 #48 and the Canadian auction is selling the ZEDL1 #48 </div></div>

Ha ha, LOL, :-) eh!

Ryan

[Lynn]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BJCHEV396</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ZL1 #48 will be sold November 2nd,no reserve,at the Toronto Fall Classic Car Auction.For more info www.ccpauctions.com (http://www.ccpauctions.com) </div></div>

I couldn't access a list of cars to be auctioned.

[1969L78Nova]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lynn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BJCHEV396</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ZL1 #48 will be sold November 2nd,no reserve,at the Toronto Fall Classic Car Auction.For more info www.ccpauctions.com (http://www.ccpauctions.com) </div></div>

I couldn't access a list of cars to be auctioned. </div></div>

The list is not available yet on their web site, however the car was part of the CC Auction advertising in the Toronto Star published on Sept 14.

[Stefano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carleen</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.camaros.org/images/pages/options/RS_firewall.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/download/Number/33688/filename/ZL148%20driver%20side%20small.jpg </div></div>

Both of these Camaros appear to have had AM radios.

[BJCHEV396]

Also advertised in the Sept.16th. issue of OLD AUTOS as ZL1 #48.www.oldautos.ca

[bergy]

If you go to that OLD AUTOS site and click on &quot;sample pages&quot;, the article on this car comes up. To be sold at &quot;no reserve&quot;.

[PeteLeathersac]

Click to article...
http://www.oldautos.ca/SamplePages.aspx

Click to auction site, no vehicle listings yet?
http://www.ccpauctions.com/event.php?EventID=87

Here's a few terms/details from the Auction site below, the mentioned announcements could be interesting?
Again I'm hoping the car and facts presented are all positive!
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete


================================================== =======================


<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Accuracy</span>
Although every effort is made to ensure the accuracy of the information contained on this website, such information is provided by the seller and may not be verified by Collector Car Productions prior to the time of sale.<span style="font-weight: bold"> Any additional information or corrections known at the sale time will be announced by the auctioneer.</span>
Please note that although every effort is made to provide complete and accurate information regarding each lot offered, buyers are advised to rely upon their own inspections as all sales are made on an &quot;as is, where is basis&quot;. Collector Car Productions accepts no responsibility for the condition of any items offered.


<span style="font-weight: bold">Terms &amp; Conditions</span>
Please ensure that you have read and understood these terms and conditions prior to bidding at this or any other Collector Car Productions, Inc. sale.

1. All sales are final. No bidder may retract a bid made during the sale for any reason.

2. Payment of ten percent (10%) of the purchase price (minimum $1,000) is due immediately upon the auctioneer’s declaration of sale. The balance is due in full on or before 3:00 pm of the next business day following the auction sale. All payments must be in the form of cash or certified funds unless other arrangements have been approved in advance.

The buyer hereby acknowledges that the seller has entered into an agreement by which entitlement to certain fees in the event the vehicle consigned is sold within 30 days following the auctions conclusion. The buyer hereby acknowledges that should he purchase or acquire for money or other goods any vehicle consigned to the auction, the buyer is liable to pay the buyer's fee to Collector Car Productions.

3. All sales are “as is” and “where is”. Bidder is responsible for inspections and verification of condition, authenticity, and completeness of any vehicle purchased. No warranties or representations of any type whatsoever are made by Collector Car Productions, Inc. Statements printed in catalogs, brochures, signs, window cards and verbal statements made by auctioneers or auction staff are representations made by the seller and Collector Car Productions, Inc. has no obligation to verify or authenticate any such claims or representations.<span style="font-weight: bold"> Any announcements made at the time of sale supercede any earlier printed information.</span>

4. Buyer is responsible for all risk of loss or damage immediately upon purchase of the vehicle or item. All vehicles or items purchased must be removed from the auction site at the buyer’s expense immediately following the sale. If not removed by the end of the day following the sale, Collector Car Productions, Inc. will remove the vehicle or item with all costs of moving and storage to be paid by the buyer.

5. Final bid price does not include buyer’s premium or applicable taxes on each lot purchased. Buyer is responsible to pay all city, state or other taxes due for which the buyer does not qualify as exempt. Proof of exemption is buyer’s responsibility.

6. Buyer's premiums are as follows. A ten percent (10%) commission will be added to the final bid of each automotive lot purchased. A fifteen percent (15%) commission will be added to the final bid of each lot of memorabilia purchased.

<span style="font-weight: bold">7. All terms of sale posted on the auction premises, printed in sale brochures or forms, publicly announced or otherwise published are incorporated herein by reference.</span></span>

[Ryan1969Chevelle]

Who else is coming to this auction?

Any ZL1 experts?

Ryan

[vette5762]

Pictures are now posted on the auction site, trim tag &amp; hidden vins.

[Charley Lillard]

Well it appears he has now gotten a trim tag made to reflect a different body #. Old body # supplied was 222042. We asked for a pic of it but it was never produced. Now they disclose a repo trim tag is on it but it now appears to have 44 body #. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2013/09/full-23-6851-dsc05656.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2013/09/full-23-6852-tf13_r003_24.jpg

[William]

222044?

Try again.

[Xplantdad]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: William</div><div class="ubbcode-body">222044?

Try again. </div></div>

http://www.ccpauctions.com/images/lots/TF13/TF13_r003_38.jpg

[bergy]

Hope they tighten up that steering coupler!

[m22mike]

Is that repop goop on the repop tag...nice... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smirk.gif

[PeteLeathersac]

Auction listings, nice line up also cool '66 2'Dr wagon!
http://www.ccpauctions.com/lot-list.php?EventID=87

Subject car...
http://www.ccpauctions.com/lot-details.php?RefNum=r003&amp;EventID=87

ZL1 #48
VIN 124379N618902
4-Spd.
Lemans Blue

-------------------------------

Right or wrong # on a repop Trim Tag admittedly or not means little as again if this was genuinely car #48 w/ just TT gone astray, why not skip any tag foolishness and stand proudly forward?
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete



================================================== =======================

[BARRY]

with one is the real car and if you bought this car are the feds going to be at your door

[BJCHEV396]

Depending on where you live it'll be the feds or the RCMP.

[GaryC]

Just curious guys...the trim tag is a reproduction? so what does that mean for the car? Is it no longer valid as a COPO? I know the removing of any tag makes a car suspect, but what does it mean to you all? Like I said...just curious.

[Charley Lillard]

It is not just the wrong tag that is the problem. As Mark pointed out in another thread there was clearly a non ZL1 body with this vin. Supposedly pics of that same car. The owner was aware of the thread and declined to clear the mess up. I personally assume it is not one of the orig ZL1's. Seeing it selling at no reserve at a auction in Canada also makes me wonder.

[Ryan1969Chevelle]

I was hoping to go see the auction but other family plans have trumped the auction trip.

The second car with the same Vin is an issue.

No reserve is brave.

At a Canadian auction eh!

Ryan

[quik9r]

Car #42 seemed to get a pass!! as per William indicating that some cowls and firewalls were cut up in the day.

Quik9r

[quik9r]

You gotta wonder? get on a plane and go figure it out in person! Comment from afar and rely on someone with an ax to grind at Carstar in Elora. Bill Rudow?? ya right

Quik9r

[camaromb]

This should have always been about the car in question, but somehow it seems to always become about attacking people who have passed on the facts as known regarding this Camaro.

Once again, the Camaro in question's owner supplied pictures of an LA built '69 Camaro body that had the serial number ZL1# 48 stamped into it. The owner further supplied and posted on this site pictures of another example of a body with ZL1 # 48 stamped into it, perhaps the final version that is currently going to auction, who knows for sure. One Camaro with the serial numbers for ZL1 # 48 and no trim tag that was painted lemans blue by Bill had june '69 sheet-metal dates.

The Camaro owner also supplied a 1981 Georgia bill of sale document with the incorrect vin number, Canadian import document reflecting the same incorrect vin # with what appears to be the same handwriting for the Camaro (Chev Camaro) and the vin. The Camaro in question is built with no original drivetrain and a repro trim tag with the BDY # of another ZL1.

The story is that this 1969 Camaro was purchased in 1981 for $ 100 in Georgia and transported back to Canada, stored until 2006 when it was first registered and found to be, low and behold, ZL1 # 48 with the correct vin! Not one 1969 Camaro body but at least 2 the owner has shown pictures of have the correct ZL1 # 48 serial number, how can this be? They must be reproducing! It must be a ZL1 breeding ground! Maybe they will show up in bunches now, all hatching on the same day! Oh wait, that has already happened before!

It would be great if an inspection could prove we have ZL1 # 48, but there is nothing to prove that; no real history, no real parts, no real trim tag. What if anything surrounding this Camaro is the original ZL1 # 48 other than a highly improbable story?

Lets leave the personal attacks off the thread. Provide something that supports that the car is real. It certainly looks otherwise based on what the owner has supplied regarding his '69 Camaro.

[quik9r]

The personal attacks started the day the &quot;pictures&quot; were posted as fact from your side. How is it that everything you state is fact and all other is bullshit. Again your pictures are from... with proof and dates from... facts dates documents. Go see the car for yourself and come back report on the car. The owner would be more than happy to talk with you face to face.

Quik9r

[camaromb]

The pictures that were posted were supplied by the Camaro owner and the additional pictures were posted by the Camaro owner himself on this site. Are you saying that the pictures supplied by the Camaro owner are not real, not factual? Were these pictures with a Camaro vin # 48 body made up by the owner and not real? Did someone else make up the pictures? If these pictures supplied by the owner in both cases were not factual then why would he possibly try to discredit his own car with 2 examples of vin stamped bodies in pictures? I have only presented what the owner has supplied on his own car. Was that wrong to expose the facts or should we just rely on BS? Maybe we should just focus on the evidence the owner has supplied, which has been done many times already. These are the only facts we have. I don't think the Camaro body will prove anything otherwise at this point.

Yes, lets all get together and have a beer and re-minis about the good old days, that would be a blast.

[iluv69s]

no resewrve so i assume it sold?? How much??? just curious??

[427.060]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: camaromb</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> They must be reproducing! It must be a ZL1 breeding ground! Maybe they will show up in bunches now, all hatching on the same day! Oh wait, that has already happened before!
</div></div>

Maybe some time in the near future all 69 will be accounted for. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif
James

[BJCHEV396]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iluv69s</div><div class="ubbcode-body">no resewrve so i assume it sold?? How much??? just curious?? </div></div>We'll know next weekend.

[iluv69s]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BJCHEV396</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iluv69s</div><div class="ubbcode-body">no resewrve so i assume it sold?? How much??? just curious?? </div></div>We'll know next weekend. </div></div>


OHH... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif

Thanks

[iluv69s]

.. please correct me if I am wrong on the details, I am going by memory here...

The BJ/ Reggie car sold for 260k if I recall. That was 'supposedly' nothing but an original VIN attached to another body, etc.

more recently an admitted 'rebody' sold for 450k I believe.

No-nonsense cars seem to sell for North of 600k

This car??? I wonder if someone is going to take a chance ??

It is a shame if the car is the real car and the owner did not do more to prove it here.

It is more of a shame lf it is not the real car, and somoene pays more than clone value for it.

Actually, if it is not the real car. it is totally illegal and only worth its value in parts. I wonder if the new owner will take the effort to prove the cars dates and numbers either way.

and if it is not real, what if the real car shows up??? just saying..?? there are apparently now atleast 2 cars with these numbers...

I hope it is real and another one is saved !!!! what day is the car being sold???

[ZiggyL78]

I figure most people know the car sold for 162K.I think the new owner made a good investment.Unless you find another ZL1 in a barn,the only way you are going to get a deal on one of these cars is to stick your neck out on a deal like this.Real or not this car will sell in the future and the seller will make big money.The only way I could see this not happening is if another #48 car shows up and is proven without doubt that it is the real one.
As far as the current situation,I think the owner just gave up and decided to blow the car out.Maybe he decided to stop posting because things were snow balling and just getting worse.He did well on this deal and so did the buyer.Hopefully in the mean time the car will be prove real and the next owner will also do well.Jusy my .02.

[iluv69s]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZiggyL78</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I figure most people know the car sold for 162K.I think the new owner made a good investment.Unless you find another ZL1 in a barn,the only way you are going to get a deal on one of these cars is to stick your neck out on a deal like this.Real or not this car will sell in the future and the seller will make big money.The only way I could see this not happening is if another #48 car shows up and is proven without doubt that it is the real one.
As far as the current situation,I think the owner just gave up and decided to blow the car out.Maybe he decided to stop posting because things were snow balling and just getting worse.He did well on this deal and so did the buyer.Hopefully in the mean time the car will be prove real and the next owner will also do well.Jusy my .02. </div></div>

now my .02


you are correct that if buyer bought this car to resell, this is probably a good investment...maybe a great investment...assuming the buyer/future seller has no conscience. But, I suspect that the buyer had no clue about the issues associated with this car.

I would be very nervous if I were the seller because apparently atleast one other car has the same VIN numbers as this one...but I assume if the seller did own both cars at one point, the 'first' number 48 is no longer around.

And if the buyer is made aware of the issues with the car now and turns out to prove these issues true...then what for the seller?

I dont believe we are done hearing about this car.

After this sale, I am waiting for the 5 Canadian ZL-1s that were all registered the same day to come up for auction soon !!!

Still hopeful the buyer hit a jackpot !!!!! And another real car is saved !!!

[Billohio]

If seller owned both cars, why were the wrong trim tag numbers shown? A lot of mystery here. If I was the buyer and didn't know about this info, I would be wondering why it was such a deal.

[camaromb]

The seller never was able to figure out the real body number for ZL1 # 48.

[PeteLeathersac]

Keep in mind too that it's not impossible the buyer and seller could be the same person/group?
Not specific to this car and situation but faceless phone bidders can sometimes be shill bidders and/or sellers buying their own cars when final bids in are too low.
Obviously shill bids are illegal and unfair too but surprisingly it's not uncommon at major auctions, nothing wrong with anyone buying their own car back though especially considering the current trend of no reserve auctions.

Being we haven't seen enough here to be conclusively certain of anything regarding this car being referred to as ZL1 #48, we can't really call it anything other than suspect for now can we?
Again it's too bad the seller didn't present all facts/details here first as if all was just it most likely would've sold for waaaay more?

Considering recent values of any reputed ZL1's including some w/ murky details, has having cars lost in a haze of rebodies and hokey tags/paperwork/history simply become accepted now...even fashionable?
Does being the first to exibit a car to match a ZL1 identity somehow make anyone the keeper of that identity regardless of right/wrong or their example containing even one single component of the original car?
If buyers are willing to pay big $ for a collection of parts and a claimed ZL1 identity it won't be surprising to see a few more appear before the dust settles and 'available identities' are all used up?
What's interesting is of the few identities left 'up for grabs' some still have legal owners/insurance co's that can lay claim to a car bearing that identity so affixing #'s to a collection of parts and restoration costs is a risky venture that could quickly backfire?

Back to the regular show!
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[iluv69s]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Billohio</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If seller owned both cars, why were the wrong trim tag numbers shown? A lot of mystery here. If I was the buyer and didn't know about this info, I would be wondering why it was such a deal. </div></div>

Correct me if I am wrong... photos were posted here by a member of a body that was apparently at a body shop to be restored. This body had incorrect dates and body piercings to be the real ZL-1 in question.

A friend of owner came on and stated that the car in the photos was not the real ZL-1 that his friend owned and posted photos of another body and a 3 x 5 card with the body number off the cowl tag from his friend's car written. This body number was incorrect for the ZL-1 in question.

Now the car at the auction has an admitted fake cowl tag with yet another incorrect body number for ZL-1 number 48.

I guess my question is, who owned the car at the body shop???


... and thank God the body numbers are secret and not in order !!!

[iluv69s]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PeteLeathersac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does being the first to exibit a car to match a ZL1 identity somehow make anyone the keeper of that identity regardless of right/wrong or their example containing even one single component of the original car?
If buyers are willing to pay big $ for a collection of parts and a claimed ZL1 identity it won't be surprising to see a few more appear before the dust settles and 'available identities' are all used up?

~ Pete </div></div>

So does the 'owner' of the 5 Canadian ZL-1s that were registered the same day have any value if he just sold the title? The so-called rights??

This could get uglier... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/frown.gif

[Hylton]

This:

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2013/11/full-1356-7536-dash_vin_zl1_48.jpg


Certainly didn't come from this:

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2013/11/full-1356-7537-dsc05742.jpg

[twertsy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hylton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This:

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2013/11/full-1356-7536-dash_vin_zl1_48.jpg


Certainly didn't come from this:

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2013/11/full-1356-7537-dsc05742.jpg
</div></div>

My software says that your statement is true, they absolutely don't match. Not sure what that means? What are the sources of each photo?

[MEL]

This has to be one of the nicest restored COPO out there. Love the color.

[olredalert]

----Like your occupation and hobby, Mel! Wife says I do both and I never knew I could make a living at it......Bill S

[Bigcubez]

I agree with Mel, nicest COPO I have ever seen....and I have seen a bunch in my years going to shows in the US.

[RichSchmidt]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hylton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This:

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2013/11/full-1356-7536-dash_vin_zl1_48.jpg


Certainly didn't come from this:

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2013/11/full-1356-7537-dsc05742.jpg
</div></div>

I don't agree. I think the real photo was taken on an angle and thru the windshield which distorted it o make the numbers look higher and narrower. The fonts are dead nuts on only the pencil scratch looks to have numbers that are wider,and actually look more like a real VIN tag. Somebody should go to their garage and take a pic of their 69 Camaro VIN thru the windshield from the same angle and then do a pencil scratch and compare for themselves. It is he only way to know for sure.

[RichSchmidt]

The dates on the inner A-pillars,outer rockers,cowl sides and inner roof would be the critical ones. Even if the car were resurrected from a backhalfed race car or even tube chassis car,at least 3 out of those 5 should have survived. Somebody could claim that the face of the firewall,floor,frame rails,package tray,quarters and tail panel were replaced because the car was a full blown race car,but the firewall with at least the a-pillars or outer rockers should be original. Just my $.02

[RichSchmidt]

Just curious,my 70 race car VIN photo'd the same way.(the SRDcar).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/racer7391/Car%20pics/get-attachment63_zpsaf5c4778.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/racer7391/media/Car%20pics/get-attachment63_zpsaf5c4778.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/racer7391/Car%20pics/get-attachment64_zpscad04ba3.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/racer7391/media/Car%20pics/get-attachment64_zpscad04ba3.jpg.html)

[RichSchmidt]

Interesting,the car in question does have very dark marks through the spaces in the digits,mine are lighter. I do see that there are light marks above the numbers where a pencil couldn't make good contact because the tag was mounted in a car. Mine was difficult,the roll bar made it hard to get a pencil in there,and the tag didn't have the metal backing plate behind it,so it wasn't siting firm behind the dash board. mine was done with a dull pencil. His lokes like the pencil was harp and being run over from a directly above angle.

[olredalert]

----Im thinking to forget all about everything else. Concentrate on the &quot;9s&quot;!!!.....Bill S

[twertsy]

It's not only the 9s. Imagery change detection software threw the following where image 1 = pencil and image 2 = picture. Software never gives 100% for some reason! even if you compare pictures of apples and oranges.....99% = absolute

1. 1st character in image 1 higher in relative position: probability: 72%
2. 3rd character inconsistent width, image 1 wider: probability: 34%
3. 4th character inconsistent dimensions, image 1 lower half elongated: probability: 92%
4. 6th and 11th characters inconsistent pattern, image 1 lower half angle: probability: 99%
5. 10th and 11th character spacing, image 1 gap wider: probability: 94%

[bergy]

So, are you saying that the image detection software liked or didn't like the nines @ 99% probability? Hard to believe that it would like them.

[RichSchmidt]

O.K. Now I am seeing the problems. The 9 on the pencil tracing is definatly not the same,but the funny thing is that both of my 9's and his 9 on his real tag are the same. I have seem numbers located up and down out of line on many tags. I see that on both my real tag and pencil trace,the #1 looks to be offset to the left edge of the block for that digit. His isn't on either the tracing or real tag. I don't know the reason why the #1 on his looks to be higher in the tracing then on the tag,I know the pencil has to be run at different angles to get all the digits completely,so I wonder if trying to trace at the top left corner put him at an awkward angle. I know that mine looks much more accurate from tag to trace,and mine is very hard to get to because it is behind a bar on a roll cage and is sunk into the dash on what seems to be a lightly acid dipped car. My pencil was definitely much duller then his,and mine looks mire like somebody rubbed some kind of carbon over the paper,but it is in fact pencil. I cant explain much other then the 9's and the spacing of the first digit seem off on his. I know nothing about his car,so don't think that I have any bias here,I just like to help on these issues.

As for my tag,it is for my 70 race car that I am trying to find he history on,and I have the VIN all over the internet,so I figured I was the person who would not care about sharing pictures.

[RichSchmidt]

The funny thing is that despite the obvious differences between his tag and trace,his tag looks authenic by comparison when compared to mine,and his trace is the odd duck out. I don't know why somebody would make a fake trace when they have a perfectly good tag to trace. My opinion is that there is nothing to make me think that his tag is fake. I would accept it as real based on font and letter spacing. I do own 3 Norwood built 2nd Gens and one LA built later 2nd gen and probably have owned another 20 on top of that.Just my $.02. Like I said,I have no skin in this and don't know the car or the guy in any way. Just trying to help.

[twertsy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, are you saying that the image detection software liked or didn't like the nines @ 99% probability? Hard to believe that it would like them. </div></div>

99% probability that they are not the same

[MEL]

This is a very interesting discussion, I have access to a atomic particle identification laser machine and I had the offending VIN pictures analyzed and the results are very surprizing. It appears that in both rubbing photos a normal lead pencil was NOT used to make the rubbings. Until we find out what type of pencils were used we will never know if the &quot;9&quot;s are real or not!

[twertsy]

That's pretty interesting.......I've never heard of assessing atomic particles within the contents of imagery...........you must have both physical rubbings in your possession in order to assess atomic particles. Perhaps your Flux Capacitor needs a tune up?

[Lynn]

Great Scott Marty!

[Stefano]

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CgFBSDoXW5s"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CgFBSDoXW5s" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

[Charley Lillard]

Oh great...

[SuperNovaSS]

No replies to this? Darn.


Jason

[twertsy]

Who's Zed and what's an L-1?

[Billohio]

After a few zed l-1s, I had to quit watching!

[PeteLeathersac]

Back to the facts for a moment, more than one car may be wearing ZL1 #48's identity and the fraud car w/ wrong body # &amp; bogus tags sold @ the 2013 Toronto auction may be only one of them?
Again some 'lost' ZL1's still have legal owners/insurance co's that could lay claim to cars bearing these identities so spending $ on any vehicle these #'s are affixed to could quickly become a very costly venture?

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/thumbsdown.gif
~ Pete

[Mr70]

He.
really.
likes.
the.
sound.
of.
his.
own.
voice.

[supercomp 8.90]

I was hoping whoever bought it would of flew in jerry to inspect and clear the air on the car, but I guess that's not going to happen, they stole it if it checks out ok even with the bad cowl tag, but we will never know I guess.

[camaromb]

JIm from Heartbeat City called me some months back on his way up to look at the car in Canada. It was for sale @ $ 200k. I told him the story regarding # 48. He was going to call after he looked at the car. I never heard back from Jim. I guess he didn't buy it.

[Billohio]

Anyone heard of insurance companies looking into cars like this?

[Stefano]

ZL1 # 48 For Sale listing (http://www.segalmotorcar.com/used/Chevrolet/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro-1ae0fd934046381253123ae19896686e.htm)


More pics and info ZL1 # 48 (http://www.69zl1number48.com/)

[DW31S]

Maybe this thread is not the correct place for this info., but I see &quot;ProTeam Corvette Sales&quot; Terry Michaelis is still advertising the engine from Malcom Durham's race car. I had heard this block was severely damaged. I seem to remember this engine being discussed elsewhere on this site. Oh, by the way, asking price is $50g's. The block supposedly retains the factory stamped VIN and suffix codes.

[kwhizz]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ZL1 # 48 For Sale listing (http://www.segalmotorcar.com/used/Chevrolet/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro-1ae0fd934046381253123ae19896686e.htm)


More pics and info ZL1 # 48 (http://www.69zl1number48.com/) </div></div>



Amazing!!!

[70CitrusZ]

Was this ever sorted out? Seems to me that the real 48 could have just been missing the cowl tag like so many race cars of the day.
Usually this resulted in the whole firewall being cut out and tossed as well, so the lower hidden vin would also be missing. I knew a guy with a 69 z28 that he turned into a race car back in the day and he regretted cutting and tossing the firewall later on...
If the person who had this car with the vin plate was just honest about the missing pieces, it would have been a lot easier to understand. Especially since simple math figures out the correct body number without much work, you would think somebody would at least make that right. so far it looks as if its not right.

[PeteLeathersac]

‘

Took a few years but the truth about this thread’s subject being a Fraud car w/ Bogus VIN Tag stamped 124379N618902 masquerading as ZL1#48 was finally exposed in a 2022 Montreal Court Case, text below from this article…
https://lawinquebec.com/montreal-car-dealer-ordered-to-pay-damages/
:beers:
~ Pete

.

MONTREAL CAR DEALER ORDERED TO PAY DAMAGES FOR SELLING FAKE - 18 MAR 2022
/
By Luis Millán

The 1969 ZL1 Camaro is a legendary muscle car. It is a beast of a car, raw, powerful and quick, and was actually designed for drag racing, capable of exceeding 500 horsepower. Only 69 were made, and it’s worth a fortune, with collectors paying as much as US$1 million.

Brad Kyle thought he got his hand on one of these rare vintage automobiles, number 48 of 69. In February 2014 the head of Town & Country Chrysler Ltd., a new and used car dealer that occasionally sells exotic sports cars, purchased the car for $395,000 (plus tax) from Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Limité, a Montreal car dealership specializing in the sale of exotic and luxury cars.

As part of the deal, Kyle was supposed to receive documents, including the build sheet, the original bill of sale, servicing bills and warranty paper work, to establish the authenticity of the car.

Several months later, in October 2014, despite the fact that Town & Country still had not received any of the required documents, it sold the car to John Scotti Auto for US$500,000, conditional on receiving the paperwork and on an inspection by Jerry MacNeish, a certified appraiser and renowned authority on Camaros.

Kyle and Scotti Auto, never received the documents. Scotti Auto cancelled the sale, and Town & Country sued, basing its cause of action on Rolls-Royce’s failure to follow through its obligation to deliver, under article 1736 of the Civil Code. Kyle also sought damages, claiming compensation for the loss of profit following the cancellation of the subsequent sale of the car to John Scotti.

An undisputed and uncontradicted expert report by MacNeish concluded the car he inspected was not number 48 of the 69 Camaros produced. Indeed, it was not even a ZL1, worth no more than US$70,000. MacNeish found evidence that there were efforts to hide the car’s true nature, and that it was a “bad rebody.”

“This car should be investigated to locate all past owners. A serious investigation should take place to find out who tried to recreate this 1969 Camaro into one of the very rare 69 ZL-1 Camaros built at the Norwood, Ohio plant. There may be serious fraud issues due to the misrepresentation of this vehicle to potential buyers,” said MacNeish.

In Town & Country Chrysler Ltd. c. Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Québec limité, 2022 QCCS 850, Quebec Superior Court Justice André Roy concluded that Kyle was entitled to “resolution of the sale” and to damages because Rolls-Royce breached its obligation to deliver.

[106] The contract of sale expressly stipulates that Town & Country will receive the 48th 1969 Camaro ZL1. No waiver of legal warranty could excuse Rolls-Royce from its obligation to deliver this specific car promised in the contract.

Justice Roy annulled the sales contract, ordered Rolls-Royce Motor Cars to pay $424,750 within 30 days of the judgment, and damages amounting to $175,491.

[129] In light of the circumstances of the case at hand, Town & Country has established that the damages it sustained were an immediate and direct consequence of Rolls-Royce’s default and that they are certain and assessable.

[130] The direct and certain result of Rolls-Royce’s failure to deliver a Camaro ZL1, number 48 of the 50 Gibb cars, was that Town & Country could not resell the car to Scotti Auto.

[131] Since the sale price was established between Town & Country and Scotti Auto, it follows that the damages in the form of loss of profit are certain and assessable.

[132] As for the criterion of forseeability, it is hard to imagine anything more foreseeable than a car dealership selling cars for profit.

[133] Thus, on November 4, 2014, when Scotti « cancelled the deal », Town & Country was deprived of a profit it had rightfully earned.



===

[iluv69s]

Wonder where that leaves this car now? There are plenty of ‘air car’ Ferraris and super rare/expensive cars out there with absolutely zero or very few original parts and no serial numbers. And they are accepted in the collector world.

Does the Georgia paperwork not seem legit? My original ZL-1 had a 0 on the MSO instead of a 9 (on the VIN) most likely because it did not sell til June of 70. Seems like a legit possible mistake.

Is it possible that this car existed back then and was rebodied when restored ?

Or would this car now need to be destroyed ? Could it be resold?

[big gear head]

I would guess that it could only be sold as a clone, replica, tribute or whatever you want to call it.

[Derek69SS]

I really hope they followed the owner history back and sued the builder who committed the fraud first.

[Rsconv68]

An undisputed and uncontradicted expert report by MacNeish concluded the car he inspected was not number 48 of the 69 Camaros produced. Indeed, it was not even a ZL1, worth no more than US$70,000. MacNeish found evidence that there were efforts to hide the car’s true nature, and that it was a “bad rebody.”

“This car should be investigated to locate all past owners. A serious investigation should take place to find out who tried to recreate this 1969 Camaro into one of the very rare 69 ZL-1 Camaros built at the Norwood, Ohio plant. There may be serious fraud issues due to the misrepresentation of this vehicle to potential buyers,” said MacNeish.

[Pro Stock John]

Whoa.

What engine is in this car?

[iluv69s]

Original guy probably could have stated that it is a rebody with no/repo cowl tag and got away with it. (may be just that).

I believe there are a few “real” ZL-1s the same (nothing but a VIN) that have sold for big $.

[JD502]

Original guy probably could have stated that it is a rebody with no/repo cowl tag and got away with it. (may be just that).

I believe there are a few “real” ZL-1s the same (nothing but a VIN) that have sold for big $.

with these cars being raced and hacked up I'm sure all kinds of shenanigans has happened with the copo cars.

[William]

Original guy probably could have stated that it is a rebody with no/repo cowl tag and got away with it. (may be just that).

I believe there are a few “real” ZL-1s the same (nothing but a VIN) that have sold for big $.

Big bucks maybe, but not approaching what no issues ZL-1s sell for. The two that have been disclosed as re-bodies are #9 [124379N608879] and #27 [124379N609965].

#9 sold at B-J AZ 2012 $451k. Sold there again this year, $495k.

#27 sold at B-J AZ 2009 [prior to disclosure] $319k, again 2019 $231k. Sold again B-J LV 2022 $159,500.

Even non-original engine ZL-1s do well. #60 sold at Mecum FL 2021 $825k. #61 at B-J AZ 2023 $770k.

Other ZL-1s are rumored to be re-bodied, not going there.

[Mr70]

Which ZL-1 is tied to the George Lyons debacle?

[William]

#9. Not quite a 'debacle'. Took some convincing to persuade him to disclose the re-body.

They settled on this:

"A GM factory assembled body shell was used to correct the extensive body modifications performed during this cars long term drag race history."

He bought it 2006 at auction from a consignor that did not disclose the re-body.

[Mr70]

I respectfully disagree.He's been selling cars for decades and it was a debacle for someone like him.
Thanks to another on here for finding this link.https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1127792

[Pro Stock John]

What engine is in this car, is it an original ZL1 engine?

[William]

Define 'original'.

Tonawanda built 182 ZL-1 engines; 71 were used in production. There were just under 600 blocks cast; highest machining # I am aware of is 505 so scrap looks to be about 14%. The majority of machined block castings were sold to engine builders.

If it is an 052 or 053 block cast [late] in 1968 or 1969, it was part of the program.

[Pro Stock John]

Thanks for info. What's in this car?

[William]

The ads for it back in the day made no 'OE drivetrain' claim so probably just a generic resto ZL-1 engine.

[Pro Stock John]

I wonder what's happened with this car and how many owners it's had since it was put together. The Macneish evaluation is pretty damning.

[iluv69s]

#9. Not quite a 'debacle'. Took some convincing to persuade him to disclose the re-body.

They settled on this:

"A GM factory assembled body shell was used to correct the extensive body modifications performed during this cars long term drag race history."

He bought it 2006 at auction from a consignor that did not disclose the re-body.

Assuming the old Georgia, etc. paperwork and VIN tag are original , Sounds a lot like the original car in this thread. Just sayin’…

Does anyone know if the VIN is original? Or the paperwork? Suggesting it’s a rebody, I assume would suggest original VIN with different body?

[Stefano]

Define 'original'.

Tonawanda built 182 ZL-1 engines; 71 were used in production. There were just under 600 blocks cast; highest machining # I am aware of is 505 so scrap looks to be about 14%. The majority of machined block castings were sold to engine builders.

If it is an 052 or 053 block cast [late] in 1968 or 1969, it was part of the program.

That is a Kool Letter, thanks for posting it!

[bergy]

Scrap and theft were very high.