Mecum Auction 68 L89 Camaro

[Ls6 Ragtop]

Hi, Anybody here have any knowledge of the 68 Camaro L89 convertible lot # S152 selling Saturday at the Indy auction? I have a good friend who is interested in bidding on it if it's real. Any history info good or bad would be greatly appreciated. Wish I knew how to install a link like Steve did for the 62 Impala but I'm not that computer savy.
Thanks, Chris
508-529-1970 or pm's would be great.

[ORIGLS6]

See if this works.

http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_detail...mp;startRow=121 (http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=SC0513-154191&entryRow=132&lottype=&startRow=121)

[Postsedan]

Chris,

For all that you do for me....it`s the least I can do <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

Here you go.

DESCRIPTION

ESTIMATE: $150,000 - $200,000

If you could go back in time to 1968, walk into a Chevy dealer and order your very own future classic Camaro, you might very well drive away in this gorgeous convertible. Let’s begin with first impressions: the 1968 Camaro SS was one of the stellar designs of the late 1960s GM styling period, and this car’s Cordovan Maroon finish with Parchment top, Parchment-on-Black interior and White wraparound stripe is simply stunning. The SS appearance package that includes a bulging hood with chrome bezels, Red Stripe tires on Rally wheels and special badging adds a muscular edge to the look.

As if being a Concours-quality SS convertible isn’t enough, there is plenty more, because this low-mileage, completely numbers-matching star packs one of the most desirable driveline combinations of the era, the L89 aluminum-head 396 big block V-8, backed by an M22 “Rock Crusher” four speed manual transmission. This was the combination that brought out the new Chevy pony car’s true nature in big block form, and in this case, that spirited performance is topped with the highest level of driver and passenger enjoyment available in the form of the RPO Z87 Custom Interior, which featured special seat trim, molded arm rests, woodgrain dash and panel trim, bright pedal inserts, deluxe wheel and passenger grab handle. Add in the U17 special Instruments option with four console-mounted gauges, electric clock and tachometer and you have a very special piece of classic top-down Chevy muscle.

While GM records are not exact, it is thought that only six convertibles were equipped with the L89 engine in 1968. Of the six, this very collectible example is one of only two documented examples known to exist. Featured on the November 2007 cover of Super Chevy Magazine, it carries just 46,000 original miles on the clock and comes with the complete owner history, original invoice and Protect-O-Plate. With its superb combination of rarity, a full contingent of options, the top drivetrain and full documentation, this rarest of Camaro convertibles is clearly one of the best of its era.

HIGHLIGHTS

- While GM records are not exact, it is estimated that only six L89 convertibles were ever produced
- Of the six, only 2 documented examples are known to exist
- Cordovan Maroon with White convertible top
- Parchment and Black interior
- Complete numbers matching drivetrain
- Fully restored using NOS and original refurbished parts
- L78 396/375 HP V-8 engine, L89 aluminum heads
- M22 4-speed manual transmission
- 46,000 original miles
- Complete owner history
- Original invoice and Protect-O-Plate
- Featured on the cover of Super Chevy Magazine in November 2007
- Ordered in June of 1968 and delivered on July 18th to Al Lincoln Buick Chevrolet in Troy, North Carolina

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v677/Postsedan/Postsedan2013/2512_zps503870fa.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Postsedan/media/Postsedan2013/2512_zps503870fa.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v677/Postsedan/Postsedan2013/2501_zpse87a3608.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Postsedan/media/Postsedan2013/2501_zpse87a3608.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v677/Postsedan/Postsedan2013/2502_zps68e03b63.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Postsedan/media/Postsedan2013/2502_zps68e03b63.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v677/Postsedan/Postsedan2013/2503_zpsd90277d9.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Postsedan/media/Postsedan2013/2503_zpsd90277d9.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v677/Postsedan/Postsedan2013/2504_zps89699bdf.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Postsedan/media/Postsedan2013/2504_zps89699bdf.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v677/Postsedan/Postsedan2013/2505_zpsd23a32f3.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Postsedan/media/Postsedan2013/2505_zpsd23a32f3.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v677/Postsedan/Postsedan2013/2506_zpsaceba04d.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Postsedan/media/Postsedan2013/2506_zpsaceba04d.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v677/Postsedan/Postsedan2013/2507_zps00d40b09.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Postsedan/media/Postsedan2013/2507_zps00d40b09.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v677/Postsedan/Postsedan2013/2508_zpsd7815ad4.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Postsedan/media/Postsedan2013/2508_zpsd7815ad4.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v677/Postsedan/Postsedan2013/2509_zpsda7141f5.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Postsedan/media/Postsedan2013/2509_zpsda7141f5.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v677/Postsedan/Postsedan2013/2510_zpsb00357c4.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Postsedan/media/Postsedan2013/2510_zpsb00357c4.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v677/Postsedan/Postsedan2013/2511_zpsb9126aae.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Postsedan/media/Postsedan2013/2511_zpsb9126aae.jpg.html)

Dan

[njsteve]

Beautiful car...but the dreaded &quot;Caution Fan Sticker Fairy&quot; has struck again. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif

[Lynn]

Seriously, who keeps putting those stickers on high end cars?

[DW31S]

Yea, what is it with that sticker? Kinda makes you wonder what else.............

[Don_Lightfoot]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DW31S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yea, what is it with that sticker? Kinda makes you wonder what else............. </div></div>
That &quot;what else&quot; question always enters my head as well when I see that item.

The colour combo here really rocks for me. I assume it should have a smog system.

[442w30]

That decal happens to Pontiac people, but it's a reproduction air cleaner decal that has its origins in Buicks. Too many Ponchos are restored with this decal.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-400-4V-Air-Cleaner-Decal-Red-White-on-Silver-/230510581887

I don't believe there are any L89 convertible numbers but it's akin to the &quot;1 of 18&quot; LS6 ragtops.

[kwhizz]

Beautiful...........(Except for the Fan sticker)

[427.060]

Very nice looking car but to me, the paint color looks too dark for Cordovan Maroon.
James

[1969L78Nova]

More tiny issues...Shouldn't the engine lift brackets be unpainted?

[SIR-VIVOR]

I think we'd all have to review the paperwork and engine pad. Numbers matching is vague. Born with drivetrain would be a bit more exciting.

[the427king]

No plug in end of aluminum head.

[442w30]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427.060</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very nice looking car but to me, the paint color looks too dark for Cordovan Maroon.
James </div></div>

I thought it looked too much like 1967's Royal Plum but I'm not a Chevy guy so I wasn't sure (even though the color was shared among other GM brands).

[mr 707]

i would like to see documents, owner history or jerrys M. certification.

[rich p]

Do some homework!!!!!

[SuperNovaSS]

Isn't that was the original poster was doing when posting here. It sounds like you may know something Rich. Interested in tutoring us?


Jason

[L78racer]

not 100% sure, but isn't that a '69 intake with the heater hose outlet (plugged)?

[Stefano]

There was another '68 L89 Convertible with a similar color combination, which sold at Mecum Indy a few years ago. I remember that it also had a dealer invoice and POP. It was a former cover car for I believe, Muscle car review?

[mr 707]

a pop is not a trusted document anymore due to boxes and boxes of originals found. Theirs a guy in florida who has an original machine who makes them and he has boxes of original unstamped nos booklets. WE all know who that is. hes been selling them since the late 80s

[Ls6 Ragtop]

Thanks to all who have responded here. Unfortunately sounds like nobody has any real history as to prior owners or originality of the drive train. My first impression after viewing the pics provided on Mecum's website are not great as I noticed the cylinder head discrepancy along with the missing smog system and the detail issues that are incorrect. I unfortunately was not planning on attending this auction so I was hoping for some info to surface (good or bad) to help out my friend who is interested in it.
Thanks, Chris

[NCGuy68]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Don_Lightfoot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=DW31S] I assume it should have a smog system. </div></div>

My thinking as well. Any Experts care to comment?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mr 707</div><div class="ubbcode-body">a pop is not a trusted document anymore due to boxes and boxes of originals found. Theirs a guy in florida who has an original machine who makes them and he has boxes of original unstamped nos booklets. WE all know who that is. hes been selling them since the late 80s </div></div> Actually we don't all know about it. This is the first I hear of this but I am not at all surprised.

[Igosplut]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: the427king</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No plug in end of aluminum head. </div></div>

Surprised more people didn't pick up on that.

[iluv69s]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mr 707</div><div class="ubbcode-body">a pop is not a trusted document anymore due to boxes and boxes of originals found. Theirs a guy in florida who has an original machine who makes them and he has boxes of original unstamped nos booklets. WE all know who that is. hes been selling them since the late 80s </div></div> Actually we don't all know about it. This is the first I hear of this but I am not at all surprised. </div></div>


The experts here are pretty good at seeing through the real protecto-plates and the fakes(newer issued)..... Although I am no expert, I have seen some that are just 'too new', especially the booklet..and many of the 'newer issued' seem to have 'many times' a vague address..like a Po box or highway number....researching the address on the protecto plates at the County hall of records is a good way to verify prior property/name ownership..I actually located the original owner of one of my cars by just writing a letter to the protecto-plate address. I also proved a protecto-plate for a 69 L-89 camaro false by looking up prior property ownership history...The owner of the property in 1969 was not the same name on the protecto=plate..a few other details also made it obvious that the protecto-plate and and tha car 100% not original/fake...

It would be nice to see all the paperwork on the car...and the VIN stamps also...I'm surprised noone knows any history on this car...

apparently some issues with correctness, but beautiful car though !!!! I'll take it !!! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/Can-I-Have-It.gif

[kwhizz]

The experts here are pretty good at seeing through the real protecto-plates and the fakes(newer issued)..... Although I am no expert, I have seen some that are just 'too new', especially the booklet..and many of the 'newer issued' seem to have 'many times' a vague address..like a Po box or highway number....researching the address on the protecto plates at the County hall of records is a good way to verify prior property/name ownership..I actually located the original owner of one of my cars by just writing a letter to the protecto-plate address. I also proved a protecto-plate for a 69 L-89 camaro false by looking up prior property ownership history...The owner of the property in 1969 was not the same name on the protecto=plate..a few other details also made it obvious that the protecto-plate and and tha car 100% not original/fake...



Ding, Ding..........This bit of info should apply to &quot;All&quot; L-89 cars.........Hint .....Hint!!!!

[PhilS]

I'm not sure if this is the same car but it certainly appears to be. A few years ago I was asked to help authenticate a car identical to this one. The car had a known history of owners but no docs. The only thing was the title which carried the SAE HP number which would prove it to be a 396. The engine appeared to be a restamp but can't prove that. The broach looked suspect as well. After purchasing the car the new owner told me he had contacted the son of the original owner and the son found the p-o-p. Close scrutiny of the docs would be advisable.

[twertsy]

So, cars are, at this point, just a hobby for me. Let's just say my real job makes certain &quot;capabilities&quot; available to me. If you folks want to determine fake vs. real stampings, broaches, etc., buy a Thermal IR camera. There is no way to hide alterations to metal from Thermal IR, you will see any additions, welds, cracks, whatever is not originally poured on the readout plain as day. They aren't cheap, but given all the stuff I see on here about questionable authenticity, that's your ticket. Here's a REALLY good one. (http://www.google.com/aclk?sa=L&amp;ai=CBKzhA9KIUd6aBerL6QGUlIGAD-i9gOoDkMLDykiInfC8pAEIBhADILZUKAhQw4q9-AFgyYajh9SjgBDIAQeqBCVP0H9FDk-Mmz3N52fPwgtrvtxXUcmHQylnntnTqnVf-UF6SnHtgAWQTsAFBaAGJoAHjdeAAeASismzo6_Dg9nuAQ&amp;sig= AOD64_3NGvXSABauZQRdIU9s1ys1RyLjog&amp;ctype=5&amp;rct=j&amp;q =thermal+IR+camera&amp;ved=0CM8BEPMO&amp;adurl=http://www.omega.com/googlebase/product.html%3Fpn%3DOSXL-E60) You can however get them significantly cheaper....

[bergy]

Maybe you could post a picture of the thermal image of an actual block stamp. Metallurgically, I guess that the internal stress could impact the heating/cooling rate very slightly. I don't understand why the thermal unit would pick up a stressed area in the absence of heat change though. Worth a try - show us what you have observed.

[iluv69s]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kwhizz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The experts here are pretty good at seeing through the real protecto-plates and the fakes(newer issued)..... Although I am no expert, I have seen some that are just 'too new', especially the booklet..and many of the 'newer issued' seem to have 'many times' a vague address..like a Po box or highway number....researching the address on the protecto plates at the County hall of records is a good way to verify prior property/name ownership..I actually located the original owner of one of my cars by just writing a letter to the protecto-plate address. I also proved a protecto-plate for a 69 L-89 camaro false by looking up prior property ownership history...The owner of the property in 1969 was not the same name on the protecto=plate..a few other details also made it obvious that the protecto-plate and and tha car 100% not original/fake...



Ding, Ding..........This bit of info should apply to &quot;All&quot; L-89 cars.........Hint .....Hint!!!! </div></div>

All 'L-89' cars <span style="font-weight: bold">only</span>??? it should apply on <span style="font-weight: bold">ALL</span> cars that have a protecto-plate. Especially the 'one-of-one's..or is it 'one of two?' These 'newer' protecto-plates have been around for many years.
Many of the property records are on-line now and can be looked up easily. Although many counties do not go back to the 60's on-line. But a 'records searcher' can be found on line that will research the address for a very reasonable fee(usually less than 75 bucks).
The original owner that I found by the protecto-plate address was just a 67 rs-ss small block car, but it was really neat as 'she' wrote me a letter about her 'golden hawk' and even sent me some day one black and white pics !!

[twertsy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe you could post a picture of the thermal image of an actual block stamp. Metallurgically, I guess that the internal stress could impact the heating/cooling rate very slightly. I don't understand why the thermal unit would pick up a stressed area in the absence of heat change though. Worth a try - show us what you have observed. </div></div>

Because there is NO WAY for a &quot;forger&quot; to duplicate the properties of the metal in the original mold, thermal IR will show the difference in the properties of the metal. In addition, one would have to grind the original stamping (which would also change the properties of the original metal and show up on thermal IR), then build the area back up, presumably via a weld, stamp the new numbers, and then &quot;clean up&quot; the entire area around the new numbers. Frankly, an exhaustive process, but one that puts a significant amount of stress on the original casting, as well as adding new material with different properties. Here is a thermal IR image of a common weld, cold (no heat applied).
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2013/05/full-13224-4763-weld.jpg

If you imaged the block while hot, it would be even more pronounced but as you can see, heat is not needed to detect a weld. Believe it or not, a weld will also cause a very small amount of moisture or sweat, even though you can't see it. Here is a thermal IR image of moisture trapped in the metal.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2013/05/full-13224-4764-water.jpg
Sometimes, you don't even need thermal IR, although, I think it's more accurate. Here's an IR scan of a &quot;clean&quot; weld (one that has been fully worked/blended with the original material.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2013/05/full-13224-4765-ir.jpg

[twertsy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe you could post a picture of the thermal image of an actual block stamp. Metallurgically, I guess that the internal stress could impact the heating/cooling rate very slightly. I don't understand why the thermal unit would pick up a stressed area in the absence of heat change though. Worth a try - show us what you have observed. </div></div>

Sorry Bergy, regarding an image of an actual block stamp, we've never done that, but the same principals logically apply. And frankly, an educated guess tells me the people who fake blocks/stampings aren't nearly as careful/skilled as those we are after...

[iluv69s]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: twertsy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe you could post a picture of the thermal image of an actual block stamp. Metallurgically, I guess that the internal stress could impact the heating/cooling rate very slightly. I don't understand why the thermal unit would pick up a stressed area in the absence of heat change though. Worth a try - show us what you have observed. </div></div>

Sorry Bergy, regarding an image of an actual block stamp, we've never done that, but the same principals logically apply. And frankly, an educated guess tells me the people who fake blocks/stampings aren't nearly as careful/skilled as those we are after... </div></div>


I do not believe there is any welding done on the block re-stamps. They just grind them enough to remove the existing numbers and re-stamp the new machined surface.
Does that machine work to show prior stampings below the grinded surface. I assume the metal molecules are somewhat crushed deeper into the metal when it is stamped..?? I once contacted a 'scientist' about a ZL-1 block who mentioned about 'etching' the metal??

[twertsy]

I do not believe there is any welding done on the block re-stamps. They just grind them enough to remove the existing numbers and re-stamp the new machined surface.
Does that machine work to show prior stampings below the grinded surface. I assume the metal molecules are somewhat crushed deeper into the metal when it is stamped..?? I once contacted a 'scientist' about a ZL-1 block who mentioned about 'etching' the metal??

I'm not familiar with &quot;etching.&quot; Unless he was talking about them using etching to fake the stamp/numbers. In which case, that could also be detected.

So, several things: first, if the above is their process, I would think precise measurements would reveal that process, given known blocks were from the same mold. Second, if measurements aren't reliable, infra-red would be very likely to reveal remnants of the original stamp underneath the fake. Lastly, if you had a thermal infra-red image of a known real block (after heating), then compared that image to the one in question (again, after heating), you would see anomalies in the &quot;worked&quot; area. You MUST image them from the exact same angle however.

[WILMASBOYL78]

Pretty soon you will have to be a nuclear scientist to authenticate a car...what a shame. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/no.gif

wilma

[twertsy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WILMASBOYL78</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pretty soon you will have to be a nuclear scientist to authenticate a car...what a shame. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/no.gif

wilma </div></div>

Particularly for us &quot;newbies&quot; to the hobby who don't know all the stuff you guys do......and getting ripped off.

[twertsy]

Ok, so I just spoke with our Chief Scientist (PhD Physics). He says that it would be easy to tell a re-stamp with a thermal infra-red camera. Here's the process:
1. Start the engine and let it get hot
2. Turn the engine off
3. As it cools, take an image every 15-30 seconds
4. Compare the images (visually inspect them)

According to him, the old stamping will be revealed at some point during the cooling process. He says there is no way they could grind away enough of the original stamp without it being blatantly obvious.

So there you go.....
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[mr 707]

the guy in florida has ORIGINAL BLANK PLATES not newer plates and nos protecto plate booklets. He isnt the only person who has them either. Every thing on these cars has to be checked out. I am making no statement about the L-89 in this thread. i dont know anything about it. I could talk about gas tank stickers and dealer order forms. They counterfit those too. iF I WAS BUYING A 200K CAR I WOULD WALK THOSE DOCUMENTS UP TO A HISTORICAL DOCUMENT EXAMINER . i KEEP A REAL TANK STICKER IN MY COLLECTION FOR REFERENCE.

[twertsy]

If anyone near Northern VA has a known re-stamp, I'd be glad to arrange a test with a local vendor of thermal IR cameras. Alternatively, someone could walk me through the process of creating a re-stamp in iron / aluminum (tools, dies, whatever would be needed) and we will test it. I'll post the detailed results on what exactly it would look like so you folks have the info.

[TimG]

Of course, there are some &quot;virgin&quot; over the counter blocks that have original broach marks. These would not have to be ground to stamp them. One well known 67 L88 that lost its motor has a correct build stamp long block in it. The person that had the car restored years ago chose not to stamp the VIN on the block.

[mr 707]

That guy is smart.((( Dont restamp vin numbers)). Ask a few ohio dealers( mid year corvettes) about that.

[iluv69s]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TimG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Of course, there are some &quot;virgin&quot; over the counter blocks that have original broach marks. These would not have to be ground to stamp them. One well known 67 L88 that lost its motor has a correct build stamp long block in it. The person that had the car restored years ago chose not to stamp the VIN on the block. </div></div>

yes, I have a correct dated virgin NOS complete 67 Z28 302 with the broach marks and date code and MO stamp for my 67 Z28, It has never been stamped with a VIN. (and never will)...
....those types would be hard blocks to tell a non-original Vin stamp if done correctly... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif

[twertsy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iluv69s</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TimG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Of course, there are some &quot;virgin&quot; over the counter blocks that have original broach marks. These would not have to be ground to stamp them. One well known 67 L88 that lost its motor has a correct build stamp long block in it. The person that had the car restored years ago chose not to stamp the VIN on the block. </div></div>

yes, I have a correct dated virgin NOS complete 67 Z28 302 with the broach marks and date code and MO stamp for my 67 Z28, It has never been stamped with a VIN. (and never will)...
....those types would be hard blocks to tell a non-original Vin stamp if done correctly... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif </div></div>

I've already begun the process of setting up some experiments. I'll add this scenario to the list. Perhaps we can figure out a technology to &quot;date&quot; a stamp. A 40 yr old stamp may appear different under certain conditions than a 5 yr old stamp? We'll stamp virgin iron and see if we can detect a difference.

[kwhizz]

Not that I would know anything about this.....But....In the old days (Mid 60's).....If the Police thought you had a engine in your car that was restamped with new #'s......they would heat up the number pad with a torch and then apply acid of some type......if the pad were messed with....the old stampings #'s would somewhat come thru.........Just Say'in.....

[iluv69s]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kwhizz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not that I would know anything about this.....But....In the old days (Mid 60's).....If the Police thought you had a engine in your car that was restamped with new #'s......they would heat up the number pad with a torch and then apply acid of some type......if the pad were messed with....the old stampings #'s would somewhat come thru.........Just Say'in..... </div></div>

Thats the process Im talking about..im sure the police use it on guns that have numbers tampered with too...I also saw a vette for sale a few years ago(maybe a 67 L89 or L88?) that had this process done to the block and the frame if I recall..?? to prove it was never restamped..?

[bkhpah]

And if the numbers are not messed with, does this process of heat and acid ruin the original numbers???

[bergy]

Yeah - like I said, the stress created by the original stamping could cause a slight distortion in heat propagation. It's not like a weld where the specific heat of the base and weld material is actually different (and shows more dramatic temperature differential). I'm not a PhD though - just bach. &amp; mast. in material science. I'd love to see it work!

[twertsy]

What I'm told will be observable is a difference in the rate of cooling. I guess the science is that the iron beneath the stamp has been altered (density maybe?) as a result of the original stamping and will therefore cool at a rate different from that of the surrounding iron. He actually thinks he may be able to discern a newer stamp from an older one. We're going to do some experiments and I will post results. Initial meeting Thursday.

[ZiggyL78]

Instead of going through all this,why not just ask the owner about the history of the car?






<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif

[iluv69s]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZiggyL78</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Instead of going through all this,why not just ask the owner about the history of the car?






<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif </div></div>

I think they are going to test other motors for future comparisons. I dont believe they have access to the car in question..or it's owner at the moment. And most of these cars do not have verified owner history. If so, that would most likely be publicized in the ad.

[twertsy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iluv69s</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZiggyL78</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Instead of going through all this,why not just ask the owner about the history of the car?






<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif </div></div>

I think they are going to test other motors for future comparisons. I dont believe they have access to the car in question..or it's owner at the moment. And most of these cars do not have verified owner history. If so, that would most likely be publicized in the ad. </div></div>

Correct, we will conduct tests on other motors, unless someone nearby wants to offer up their known restamp. Otherwise, I have a compromised, unusable 1969 dated GM block that we will test first as originally stamped, then grind the numbers down, test again, then restamp and test again. Basically, collecting &quot;signatures&quot; for each condition. He would prefer to test several blocks so I'm stopping by the local machine shop today for more subjects. It/they will then go to the scrapyard across the street.

[mr 707]

i dont think any owners are going to let anyone go at their stamp pad with a torch. A torch sometimes will make a fake stamp disappear( numbers will fall off) and the original will show thru. Bare block on a stand

[twertsy]

It's not a torch.......it's a special camera

[Kurt S]

http://www.camaros.org/public/acidetch.txt is the acid procedure. It works, but results are not amazing.

About the car - it's the one that Phil looked at back in 2006.
Restamped pad and repro POP.

[mr 707]

The AD say ((original)) order invoice+POP. i wonder if it had those back in 2006.? If i was interested i would walk that invoice to a document examiner and have it tested.

[iluv69s]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mr 707</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The AD say ((original)) order invoice+POP. i wonder if it had those back in 2006.? If i was interested i would walk that invoice to a document examiner and have it tested. </div></div>



If there are 'new' docs. I would show them to Kurt S...if they are the same docs from 2006...Kurt has already spoken..enough said.

[PeteLeathersac]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
About the car - it's the one that Phil looked at back in 2006.
Restamped pad and repro POP. </div></div>

To confirm, this is VIN 124678N471283 ?

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif
~ Pete

[Lynn]

[quote
About the car - it's the one that Phil looked at back in 2006.
Restamped pad and repro POP. [/quote]

Ouch. Are the L89's going to go the way of the 69 Z? More restamps than originals?

[iluv69s]

I re-read the ad and the ad says
...'original invoice and protecto-plate'
...also says 'complete owner history'


seems rather straightforward.... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif

[kwhizz]

Charley's there..........Maybe he will take a look at it!!

[WILMASBOYL78]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kwhizz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Charley's there..........Maybe he will take a look at it!! </div></div>

But Ken...you are the authority on aluminum headed big blocks.. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif

[kwhizz]

Only Nova's with 074 heads...........and &quot;other&quot; things......LOL

[twertsy]

We have the Thermal-IR device in hand and are ready to begin testing, likely this weekend. What size are the characters in a stamp? Need to order a stamping kit...Thought they were 1/4&quot;?

[mr 707]

ill be up looking at it on saturday.

[iluv69s]

No sale at 125k.....did anyone get to see the 'original invoice and protecto-plate and owner history ???


...... but the 'L-89 Nova' sold for 190 k !!!

[mr 707]

i looked at it I think kurt said it all on this car

[musclecar fan]

http://www.superchevy.com/features/camaro/sucp_0711_1968_chevy_camaro_ss_convertible/viewall.html

[Lynn]

Engine stamp.

[iluv69s]

owner history sounds legit..??

[musclecar fan]

Does this stamp look correct?

[wagonman]

I would also like to know what the consensus from this group is on this particular engine stamp.

I'm not an expert by any means but am sort of surprised by its appearance.

Thanks in advance.

John.......

Love car BTW......

[SuperNovaSS]

Not an expert? Haven't you had some restamping and fake paperwork done for yourself?


Jason

[PeteLeathersac]

Is more from this group really necessary?
The realities of this car noted earlier are from a credible source also very clearly put.

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/burnout.gif
~ Pete

VIN 124678N471283

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
About the car - it's the one that Phil looked at back in 2006.
Restamped pad and repro POP. </div></div>

[iluv69s]

After reading the newly posted article and the owner history, I am still interested about the 'original invoice' and if it is an 'original' L-89 car....has anyone seen the invoice?

[wagonman]

<span style="font-weight: bold">Not an expert? Haven't you had some restamping and fake paperwork done for yourself?


Jason:
</span>
Yes....

But I still don't consider myself an expert...
I’m not going to beat around the bush….Personally I don't like the engine pad,It looks like a restamp to me.Very poor job...


<span style="font-weight: bold">Is more from this group really necessary?
The realities of this car noted earlier are from a credible source also very clearly put.


~ Pete</span>

VIN 124678N471283

Originally Posted By: Kurt S

About the car - it's the one that Phil looked at back in 2006.
Restamped pad and repro POP.


Thank you Pete…this confirms my opinion.

[P.J.]

I was there at the auction,saw the car. Nice car. if I was going to bid on this rare beauty
I would want verification of all the previous owners. especially if I am expected to pay around
200 big ones. And If I was the owner and wanted big money I would provide that info .

while at this car auction I noticed how many rare cars had mostly repro parts on them
Real nice rests too. not one 70 chevelle Ls6 had all its orig parts that I saw.

I wonder thought how many people would recognize a chevelle with all of its born with orig parts
PJ

[musclecar fan]

Just got a hold of the represented &quot;original paperwork&quot; for this alleged 1968 L89 Camaro convertible. I'm curious as to everyones opinion on these documents. I find them both way too clean, no yellowing, no ink residue on POP from roller at service, no frayed corners on paper invoice or POP booklet, infact the metal protectoplate doesn't have ANY aging whatsoever that I can see, surprising for a 40+ year piece of raw metal. I also never saw an invoice before with the interior color specified, and surprised that it specifies a wood wheel and a car of this caliber is restored without that specified option. Also unusual is that it's a 3.07 posi. Why would someone order an aluminum head 396 + M22 rock crusher and non-performance gears like that. To top it off the code on the POP for the rear end is BR1213G (Dec 13th). If that is 12/13/1968 then the rear doesn't match as that date is after the car was sold, which was 7/27/68. If it is 12/13/67 then I am concerned about why it would have sat around for 6-7 months (6 months prior to the date code of the block which is 06/17/68). As to the engine stamp, the alignment of the characters looks suspect to me. The spacing between the &quot;1&quot; and &quot;7&quot; on the left side stamp seems wider than the other characters and the spacing between the &quot;7&quot; and the &quot;M&quot; seems too close. Also, why is the alignment of the last three numbers of the VIN &quot;283&quot; slighly lower than the other characters and why is the spacing between the &quot;4&quot; &quot;7&quot; &quot;1&quot; wider than the spacing of the &quot;2&quot; &quot;8&quot; &quot;3&quot;?

Tell me what you think about the authenticity of this &quot;original documentation&quot; and &quot;engine stamp&quot; please. Thanks

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2013/08/full-2346-6146-pop.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2013/08/full-2346-6147-invoice.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2013/08/full-2346-6148-block_stamp.jpg

[musclecar fan]

Surely someone can give their opinion on the above paperwork? People have asked to see this paperwork, so here it is. Is it real or not? Thanks

[68l30]

Just curious..what is the build date on the cowl tag...O7_ ?

BIG

[cook_dw]

Just an outsider looking in. I have looked at several p-o-p's and I have never seen one that clean &amp; crisp if it is suppose to be 45 years old. Also the acid in your hands would cause the metal to dull even if only handled sparingly over time it would still tarnish even slightly, glue/adhesive holding the plate to the paper will also darken with age. Paper will age and discolor unless docs were sealed away from air and the elements (which I just don't see happening). But then again who am I. As for the engine pad; it is blatantly obvious is has been decked &amp; restamped.

[Charley Lillard]

I have seen many protecto plates that looked like new over the years. As for the paperwork I'm told Mecum sent it off to be tested and it is supposed to be real.

[lowmile]

It would be interesting to hear where this paper work was stored for the last 45 years. I would guess, not the glovebox. m

[cook_dw]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have seen many protector plates that looked like new over the years. As for the paperwork I'm told Mecum sent it off to be tested and it is supposed to be real. </div></div>

Unfortunately for me the ones I have seen have age to them. I am no expert. Just giving an opinion from experiences. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[mr 707]

i wonder if the past owners had all that paperwork. LOOKS PRETTY ***

[firstgenaddict]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cook_dw</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have seen many protector plates that looked like new over the years. As for the paperwork I'm told Mecum sent it off to be tested and it is supposed to be real. </div></div>


Unfortunately for me the ones I have seen have age to them. I am no expert. Just giving an opinion from experiences. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif </div></div>

There is a lab in Atlanta which tests paper. The Chemistry of the older paper from before the mid 80's is much different than that of today.

[Jim Ferron]

My 69 L-78 Chevelle came from AL Lincoln. I have no dog in the fight, and I'm NOT posting a picture of my P-O-P here. For what it's worth, my '69 POP has a different ink pad stamp on the POP. Other than it's spelled the same, it is completely different, font - spacing etc. That is not to say they didn't have two stamps.

[mr 707]

NOS data plates and booklets have been for sale since the 80s. a guy in florida sells them. He sells items on ebay.

[the427king]

&quot;There is a lab in Atlanta which tests paper. The Chemistry of the older paper from before the mid 80's is much different than that of today.&quot;............What if someone were to find old dealer invoices that were blank??

[firstgenaddict]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: the427king</div><div class="ubbcode-body">&quot;There is a lab in Atlanta which tests paper. The Chemistry of the older paper from before the mid 80's is much different than that of today.&quot;............What if someone were to find old dealer invoices that were blank?? </div></div>

Then there would be no way to tell it(paper) from original. The same applies to any counterfeits done on time period correct substrates. (old master forgeries, ink removal from manuscripts etc)
The issue would come when another invoice from the same period appears and there are discrepancies.

[firstgenaddict]

A quick websearch reveals the James Hurley who was the 16 year old who received the car new. It appears he is the mayor pro-tem of the city of Troy. Someone MUST have some photos of this car prior to restoration somewhere.
The description according to Super chevy leaves no doubt everyone knew it was special along with each and everything they did to the car. The ownership is so clean and the owners so proud the pictures exist.

[Chevyfever]

I think this car was featured in Super Chevy in the 80s before
the rip off artist's got so involved in the hobby! From what I remember
the mother purchased for her 16 yr old kid ,lucky brat!

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/3gears.gif

[firstgenaddict]

A 307 rear with a M22 would be a slug even with a L89.
I bet he got his butt worn out if he tried any stoplight to stoplight digs.

[musclecar fan]

So, here's what I gather from all the comments:

Block - concensus that it's a re-stamped block (not original).

Protectoplate Booklet and invoice - suspicious due to lack of aging/yellowing and frayed corners and another members information that his protectoplate from the same dealer has a different style ink stamp altogether.

Protectoplate Metal Card - Suspicious due to no ink residue, too shiny and no aging whatsoever including no oxidation.

This all said, so what do you all think now about &quot;this car is complete numbers matching drivetrain with original invoice and protectoplate&quot;?

[kwhizz]

Reconstructed and Redocumented............one of many!!!

[Schonyenko2]

I have no comment this car, but the Gibb royal plum L78 67 convert had a 308 gear I believe. The buyer wanted to run 150+ mph down the interstate if I remember correctly. Some of the interesting individuals back then wanted top end, not drag gears. Something about out running the cops.

[Stefano]

While very unusual, having the 3.08 rear gear doesn't preclude it from being a L89. I have seen several 3.08 geared original 1968 L78s.

No one can make a 100% accurate assessment about the car in question, based solely on the pictures and /or info provided thus far in this thread.

[Chevyfever]

This is what I found on this Camaro:7/27/68 Al Lincoln Buick Chevrolet applied for title original owner Mrs Leland Hurley Troy NC.
8/30/68 titled granted to Mrs Hurley on behalf of her son James he owns
2-1/2 yrs. 1/21/71 Hurley consigns to Essiks body shop Asheboro NC.
2/17/71 Jimmy Essiks decides to buy the Camaro,he is 2nd owner for 2-1/2 yrs.6/14/73 19 yr old Richard McCurry of Randleman NC purchased the camaro he is 3rd owner for 16-1/2 yrs.


2/19/90 Camaro is sold to Lloyds of Highpoint a dealer they are 4th owners.
3/21/90 car is sold to Todd Whittman of Charlotte NC he is 5th owner for next 6 plus yrs car is seldom driven. 6/14/96 Camaro is sold to Ron Anthony of Greensboro NC,he is sixth owner for 2 months.8/12/96 car is sold to Evan Collins of Santa Barbara California ,he is 7th owner for 10-1/2 yrs.
7/2006 he sells car to Roger and Carolynn Sortino of Washington State.
Collins had the car restored by Bel Air restorations in Buellton Calif.
Only other L89 68 convertible known is owned by Keith Laws of Ohio,green one with white top.Camaro seems to be well documented to me!
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/3gears.gif

[njsteve]

Just from a lawyerly standpoint I would point out this: If for the sake of argument, the chain of ownership you post is absolutely correct, it may only document the chain of ownership of a 1968 Camaro and not necessarily a 1968 L89 Camaro. Correct me if I am wrong but I think that is the issue at hand?

[Kurt S]

Agreed. We know who reputedly owned it. But the block and the docs are fakes.
What was the car originally? Proof of that?