Motor mount issue

[Bill Rose]

As many here may know, I'm building a 69 big block Nova, that was originally a 6 cyl/powerglide car.

I have the repro frame mounts, and basic rubber big block motor mounts. I knew the motor sat low, but I thought it was ok/normal. Now that I have the fan and shroud installed, it doesn't look right. I looked closer at the gap between the oil pan and the frame crossmember, and I can't slide a piece of paper between them. Obviously, the engine is sitting to low. It has the correct oil pan, so the issue is with the engine stands, or the motor mounts. Those are the only parts that determine the height of the engine.

Everything is set up like an L-78 would be. I'm stumped. Not sure what to do. There should be no need for spacers. The original big blocks fit, and this should be no different.

Has anyone dealt with this issue with a Nova or Camaro?

[firstgenaddict]

The BB engine's in Nova's like Camaro's is offset to the passenger side.

Can you put a pic or post the frame stand numbers and the engine mount numbers?
69 BB's used a unique non interlocking HD motor mount from the assembly line and all other's are just replacements, there have been issues with different brands of replacement mounts.

[69 Post Sedan]

Bill, 1967-68 Camaro and 1968 Nova have the same engine frame mounts. 1969 Camaro and 1969-70 Nova are the same. I assume you have the correct ones for a '69 Nova.

If so, double check the motor mounts because as stated above, there are different ones for each application and sometimes the wrong ones get sent. BBC motor mounts are specific to the frame mounts.

Hope that helps, Kurt

[Bill Rose]

Thanks guys. Maybe this helps describe my problem. The frame mounts are repro's from Ground-Up, the same ones that all the vendors sell for BB Nova's. The motor mounts are also from GU. I have no idea if they are right.n Ground-Up lists all the motor mounts the same, for Chevelles, Nova's Camaro's etc...

Here are 3 pics of the motor mounts. The 1st is before the engine was installed, with the motor mounts bolted to the frame mounts.

The other 2 are the best best pics I could get of the mounts today.

http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee335/wrrose/100_3758_zpsfefa26a4.jpg (http://s533.photobucket.com/user/wrrose/media/100_3758_zpsfefa26a4.jpg.html)

http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee335/wrrose/100_3966_zps349bffda.jpg (http://s533.photobucket.com/user/wrrose/media/100_3966_zps349bffda.jpg.html)

http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee335/wrrose/100_3969_zps0f179fa1.jpg (http://s533.photobucket.com/user/wrrose/media/100_3969_zps0f179fa1.jpg.html)

These are the motor mounts GU is selling for BB 69 Nova's.

http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee335/wrrose/AMX-96_zps59bb016a.jpg (http://s533.photobucket.com/user/wrrose/media/AMX-96_zps59bb016a.jpg.html)

[69 Post Sedan]

Your engine frame mounts should look like these from the side.

Kurt

Engine Frame Mounts (http://www.carpartsdiscount.com/auto/parts/70/chevrolet/nova/engine_mounts/motor_mount_brackets_big_block_2pc.html?3593=12727 8)

[Bill Rose]

Kurt, those are the frame mounts that I have in the Nova. I'm wondering if the Motor mounts are wrong.

[enio45]

measure the height of the motor mounts from the engine side to the hole....

we can compare these to the correct GM interlocking motor mounts.

[njsteve]

I am no Chevy guru but are you sure the rubber mounts you have aren't for a small block? The 350 in my old Z11 had one wrong motor mount and it turned out that it was from a big block. The result was that one side of the motor was way too high. They were different thicknesses but the same bolt pattern.

[Bill Rose]

Steve....GU is listing all the big block cars with the same motor mounts. They are for a big block, but I don't think they are for Novas. Chevelles.....maybe?

Here is a shot of the mounts with a measurement. Looks real close to 2&1/4".

http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee335/wrrose/100_3974_zps7c6e1a99.jpg (http://s533.photobucket.com/user/wrrose/media/100_3974_zps7c6e1a99.jpg.html)

[parkbrau]

Here is a link to David Pozzi's site. It was stated earlier that Camaro and Nova share the same mounts and brackets. It gives a few measurements that might help you out.

http://pozziracing.com/camaro_engine.htm

Good luck, and awesome project your working on!

john

[Bill Rose]

Thanks John, lots a good info. I think I know what I need, but not sure how to get it. I ordered a set of motor mounts that are suppose to work. I'll post the results when I get them on Sat.

[Postsedan]

Just a slight set back Bill, you'll have it figured out by the weekend <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

Dan

[Postsedan]

Bill,

You can always do it Old School <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v677/Postsedan/Postsedan2013/P1010007_zpsaff3854e.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Postsedan/media/Postsedan2013/P1010007_zpsaff3854e.jpg.html)

Dan

[Bill Rose]

Yikes!! There's got to be a better solution with all the big block 69 Camaro's and Nova's out there. Something I've learned doing this Nova project, it seems like there's a lot less knowledge when it comes to Camaro's/Nova's, than there is with the Chevelles that I'm used to restoring. I'll get it figured out, hopefully without rigging it like that Dan!!

[njsteve]

Crazy question: but could the trans mount, or even the trans cross member be wrong, causing the engine to tilt downward in the rear, leading the oil pan to hit the subframe?

[Bill Rose]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: njsteve</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Crazy question: but could the trans mount, or even the trans cross member be wrong, causing the engine to tilt downward in the rear, leading the oil pan to hit the subframe? </div></div>

That was looked into Steve. Yes as the trans goes up, the front of the pan gets closer to the frame. The cross member and the trans mount are stock factory correct parts. But even if the trans was dropped a considerable amount, the pan would still be way too close. The back of the motor is too low as well. The exhaust manifold is close too the steering box, so the whole motor has to be raised about 1/2&quot;.

There's a guy I know who has a big block Nova, that was originally a small block. He checked his pan to frame clearance today, and he has almost a 5/8&quot; gap under his pan. He lives a couple hrs from me, so I have to find the time to go look at his set-up, to see why his engine sits higher. I have new motor mounts coming tomorrow. Hopefully I can put this behind me, and move on.

[Lynn]

I hate stuff like this. Maybe it is just me, but I would suspect the repro stands.

Find someone who has some original GM stands for a 69 / 70 Nova or 69 Camaro big block and compare the height. I had a pair off an Aug 69 built 70 Nova, but am pretty sure I sold them quite some time ago. Surely someone has a pair.

[Salvatore]

How about some nice after market frame mounts for drag racing or a high performance set up? Maybe they would be the answer and even be more sturdy. Paint them black and no one would ever know or really be looking.

[DW31S]

Bill, I'm confident that with your ability and talent you will have this rectified in no time! While you all were at that Chevelle show, I told Dan of a Hurst shifter stick/handle for your Nova that I stumbled across. At the time, I think you were searching for the &quot;correct&quot; appearing one for your latest project. Good luck with the latest glitch and hang in there.

Dave

[WILMASBOYL78]

There was a thread on the site last year about our 70 black th400 L78...I posted nice photos of both engine mounts/frame stands...I tried to find the thread..no luck. It would have been July-early August time frame...I was getting the car ready for the Dover reunion at LV...perhaps someone who knows how to find old threads can dig it up.

I can post photos tomorrow nite..wilma

[njsteve]

I imagine you already thought about whether the pan is the correct application? Did Novas use a different pan? Or is that a recently manufactured one?

[Xplantdad]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WILMASBOYL78</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was a thread on the site last year about our 70 black th400 L78...I posted nice photos of both engine mounts/frame stands...I tried to find the thread..no luck. It would have been July-early August time frame...I was getting the car ready for the Dover reunion at LV...perhaps someone who knows how to find old threads can dig it up.

I can post photos tomorrow nite..wilma </div></div>


Here are Tom's pics....click here! (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/498296/1)

[69 Post Sedan]

Bruce, I think you're the only one who understands the search engine on this site.....great job!

Kurt

[Ryan1969Chevelle]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 69 Post Sedan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bruce, I think you're the only one who understands the search engine on this site.....great job!

Kurt </div></div>

I would love to know how it works? I can't even find my own posts......

Ryan

[enio45]

ditto that....great site, search engine need to be revamped. It should have a google search engine software - eliminates the parameter issues that no one can figure out!

[Xplantdad]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 69 Post Sedan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bruce, I think you're the only one who understands the search engine on this site.....great job!

Kurt </div></div>

LOL...you guys crack me up....

You just have to know what keywords to enter...and set up the date range correctly. If that doesn't work-every post that everyone has ever made is saved. Just go to the individual and search each page <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[Bill Rose]

OK, well for starters, thanks for all the feedback., and suggestions. I just got back from a friends house, who has a transplanted big block Nova, originally a 6 cyl like mine. He has the same frame mounts, and motor mounts that I have. His pan is closer to the frame than he thought. I was able to put 2 pieces of cardboard together and slip it between the pan and frame. The 2 cardboard pieces together are a small 1/4&quot;.

The pictures of Toms car show that he has the same frame and motor mounts that I have as well. I also got the new motor mounts made by Lakewood. They are the same as what is in my Nova now. So, I'm back to square one.

I think the problem is a combination of things. One, the oil pan is has a slightly different shape to it, in the critical part, the front.

The hurst shifter is adding to the problem too. The plate that the shifter is bolted to, is bolted under the trans mount, so it raises the trans a bit.

I have all the correct parts in the car, but I'm dealing with repro stuff and I think the slight differences in how they're made, is screwing up the oil pan height.

So what I would like to know from some of the big block Camaro and Nova owners is, how far should the front of the oil pan be from the frame??

If it's only 1/4&quot;, I think I can get that much by making some of the changes I described.

If I can shave a bit off the trans mount, then maybe but a 1/4&quot; steel plate between the motor mounts and the block, I think I will be ok. Not sure what else I can do. I don't want aftermarket urethane mounts, or solid mounts. I had them in my 71 Chevelle yrs ago, and I hated all the vibrations. It felt like the motor was welded to the frame.

So if I could get some 69 Nova/Camaro owners to check the clearance between the front of the oil pan, and the frame, that would be a big help, just so I know what to shoot for, for the pan to frame gap......

Thanks again for the replies, and I will post some progress pics tomorrow night.....

[RPOL88]

There is a Hurst mount # 1957773 that is pretty universal and mounts to the side of the transmission. Bolt pattern is for Muncie, Saginaw, &amp; B/W. Also has holes for the 1970 up 764 tail housing. Cost about $30.00 .

[VintageMusclecar]

Bill;

Take a look at these (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-62535/overview/).

[napa68]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VintageMusclecar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bill;

Take a look at these (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-62535/overview/). </div></div>

BINGO!

[Postsedan]

Perfect <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif This should Get R Done!

Dan

[Bill Rose]

I really appreciate the help. It just seems like a this kind of stuff shouldn't even be a problem. How many times have we all bolted the frame mounts to the frame, bolted the motor mts on the block, and dropped the engine in, without an issue.

Eric, Much appreciated......I was thinking along those lines, of making spacers to stick under the motor mts. I didn't realize someone makes them, but of course that makes sense. As long as they don't screw up the geometry, so the bolt won't go thru.

Tom, I'll look into the different shifter mount too. I did have to alter the Hurst mount, to fit the Autogear M22, but that alteration didn't change the height of the trans. But the part of the plate that bolts under the trans mount, does raise it 1/8&quot;.....I'm gonna look for a shorter trans mount too, but I want to stay away from urethane.

I spent the all day Sat, replacing the vinyl top, and polishing all the stainless moldings. The SMS top came out great. I've got to put this project on hold for a week. We have the whole family coming here on Labor Day for a barbecue, and I'm getting the evil eye right now!!!!

Thanks again for the advise. I'll get those parts ordered today, and put this behind me.

[VintageMusclecar]

I just went back and looked at the pictures again and noticed the pan has dimples on the front sides which are meant to clear the inner tie rod ends on a Chevelle. Did Camaros &amp; Novas use the same pan from the factory as a Chevelle?

[300deluxeL79]

not mine but another picture to compare...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-RH-1969-69-3...=item1e7e48b31d (http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-RH-1969-69-396-427-CAMARO-70-NOVA-ENGINE-FRAME-MOUNT-BRACKET-3980942-BBC-/130967712541?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories &amp;hash=item1e7e48b31d)

[Bill Rose]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VintageMusclecar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just went back and looked at the pictures again and noticed the pan has dimples on the front sides which are meant to clear the inner tie rod ends on a Chevelle. Did Camaros &amp; Novas use the same pan from the factory as a Chevelle? </div></div>

Eric, here's a shot of Grady's very original/restored 69 L-78 motor. Grady or Mike would be able to say if it's the original pan or not, but it's looks very much like the pan on my Nova. A good parts book would be the answer to the question.

http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee335/wrrose/tn_97_zpsd7c0ea43.jpg (http://s533.photobucket.com/user/wrrose/media/tn_97_zpsd7c0ea43.jpg.html)

This is the best shot I have of my motor, before it went into the car.

URL=http://s533.photobucket.com/user/wrrose/media/100_3497_zpsff40206b.jpg.html]http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee335/wrrose/100_3497_zpsff40206b.jpg[/URL]

These are to 2 questions I still have, for original big block Nova/Camaro owners.

1) How much of a gap should there be between the front of the pan, and the frame?

2) Are the Chevelle pans and Nova/Camaro pans the same?

Another way to measure the pan depth, is to check how far below the balancer, the pan is. Of course it would have to be an 8&quot; balancer.

[ssl78]

Just checked both my big block Novas and my big block Camaro you couldnt even fit a piece of cardboerd between frame and pan. I think your mounts are fine did you change core support bushings maybe they are wrong changing where it is in comparison to the motor. The pan with the dimples is correct for Camaro and Novas, Chevelles also used it but the Camaros and Novas definetly need that pan.

[m22mike]

As far as I remember that was the OE pan, I do not think your pan is the problem. I would just shim the mounts and press on.

Mike

[markjohnson]

I know it looks like you have the correct motor mount bolts but any chance of 7/16 bolt vs. 1/2 bolt for the long motor mount bolt? A sloppy fitting clearance hole for the thru-bolt might have let that motor drop slightly. Also, I Don't know what kind of oil pan gasket is being used but I recently seen one of the newer one-piece, metal impregnated rubber ones that was crazy thick!

[Bill Rose]

Thanks for checking on the oil pan clearance John. With the gap being so tight on your cars, I now know what to shoot for. As Mike mentioned, a shim or 2 should get this fixed.

I did check the motor mount bolt Mark, after you posted. It does have the right 1/2&quot; bolts.

I have the shims ordered/should be here Tues.

Thanks again for the help.

[Bill Rose]

Problem solved!! I got the Moroso shims (thanks Eric) from Summit. Just one 3/16&quot; shim under each motor mount, raises the motor about 1/4&quot;. I used the 3/16&quot; and the 1/16&quot; under each motor mount, and it raised the pan off the frame about 3/8&quot;--7/16&quot; plenty of room now, and fan is also centered in the fan shroud. I also gained some clearance where the manifold came close to the power steering box. The left valve cover is ok, but only about 3/8&quot; away from the brake booster. Typical Nova/Camaro thing.......Scratched the heater cover. No big deal with the nose still off the car...that will be fixed tonight....Thanks SYC!!

[VintageMusclecar]

Happy to be of service. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Can you post a pic or link of the shims? I'm just a few months behind you on this task, and also purchased the engine mounts from Ground Up so I might be in the same boat soon.

[SS427]

It was on a previous page

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-62535/overview/

[olredalert]

----I cant remember the part #, but theres a shim very similar with a GM part #. It was used on 66-67 Corvettes with big-blocks and Air Conditioning. Long Island Corvette has them in stock though so they should be easy to get. Im really sorry I didnt think of it sooner.......Bill S

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Got it, thanks.

[Mr.Nickey Nova]

Bill,
Just checked my 70 L34 Nova.I have the same oil pan and i measured 1 1/4&quot; between valve cover and booster,about 5/8's of a inch between pan and cross member.