1969 Camaro L89 with JL8 option at Kissimmee

[musclecar fan]

Any thoughts or known history on this car as to authenticity and REAL #'s matching? Have never seen a deluxe interior car without a console. With two big options like L89 and JL8 I want to be sure before I consider this car. All comments are very much appreciated.

L89 at Mecum Kissimmee Auction (http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=FL0114-174267&entryRow=44&lottype=&startRow=41)

[cook_dw]

Not sure how rare but my 68 z is deluxe interior without a console. I would check over on camaros.org & see if it's in their database, but you'll probably need the vin if no one recognizes the car..

[camaromb]

The 1,500 mile black RSZ also has a deluxe interior with no console, stripe delete too. I would like to see the paperwork on this L89, killer car if real.

[firstgenaddict]

If this car is real the sell number is going to be large!
With nothing more than beauty shots little if anything can be determined from the photos... call a competent person to look it and the ORIGINAL paperwork over with a fine tooth comb.

[Kurt S]

124379N690139
Nice, but all the docs are fake. JL8 wasn't available by then.
Haven't seen a tag pic.
http://www.autotraderclassics.com/classi...sationId=249425 (http://www.autotraderclassics.com/classic-car/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro-1177852.xhtml?conversationId=249425)

Same as always: always question a black car.

[the427king]

"Same as always: always question a black car".....Or an L89.

[Lynn]

" Its impressive factory documentation includes the Protect-O-Plate, broadcast sheet, invoice sheet, window sticker, delivery check list and owner's manual."

I would call that fraud if all the docs are fake.

Unlike most of the fake docs, this one has a real person and a real address. Most seem to be non-existent addresses that cannot be traced.

Coounty records of the property here: http://www.pcpao.org/?pg=http://www.pcpao.org/general.php?strap=163033699481003105

Kenneth Wright did live at the address on the docs, or at least he owned it. He died in 2009, and case was probated. So, it is possible that he was the original owner of the car and that the current owner purchased it from the estate.

Summary of probate docs here: https://ccmspa.pinellascounty.org/PublicAccess/CaseDetail.aspx?CaseID=1837513

[weranc55]

What is it with l89's and fake docs. Its giving these cars a bad name.

[x77-69z28]

I wonder what Dana mecum will have to say about this revelation!

[firstgenaddict]

I figured it was the same one with all the fake docs that was in Florida however without concrete proof I didn't want to tarnish someone else's car. I thought the auctions were trying to police themselves a little better. Then again I guess that is why none of the fake docs are shown on the auction sites.

I have customers who call me with this car and that car asking if it is real, so much time is wasted messing with a bunch of crap that is so wrong I laugh when I actually take a look at them. It irritates me that people want you to spend time and money to come look at fake docs in person when I could eliminate the vehicle from my clients scope by merely seeing the docs. Then again some people would rather have an incorrect aged window sticker than to admit they don't have one. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif

[firstgenaddict]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: weranc55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is it with l89's and fake docs. Its giving these cars a bad name. </div></div>

No it doesn't give any car a bad name, it does however give the crooks creating these cars bad names, and it will eventually catch up to them.

This does however reiterate a GREAT POINT made by many before me...
IF YOU ARE NOT AN EXPERT AND CANNOT AFFORD TO LOSE THE MONEY THEN HIRE A REPUTABLE ONE.

ANOTHER I LIKE IS IF YOU CAN NOT DETERMINE WHO IS THE SUCKER IN A DEAL THAT IS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE... LOOK IN THE MIRROR.

Fake Paperwork is extremely difficult to get perfect...

[the427king]

&quot;so much time is wasted messing with a bunch of crap&quot;.....My sentiments exactly. I stopped looking for one for that exact reason.

[ss427copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: the427king</div><div class="ubbcode-body">&quot;so much time is wasted messing with a bunch of crap&quot;.....My sentiments exactly. I stopped looking for one for that exact reason. </div></div>

Thank God BWAG took pics of my 69 the night it was delivered to his dealership. A real L89 Camaro that has never been apart. Now, if he only kept the engine when they yanked it for a Booth-Arons L72!

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r59/nhra1060sc/th_image-9.jpg (http://s141.photobucket.com/user/nhra1060sc/media/image-9.jpg.html)

[Camaro Don]

Didn't know GMAC finance was even around in 69, LOL

[John Brown]

They were. I paid the payments on my new 69 428 Catalina at the local G-mac office.

[Bill Pritchard]

I wonder why there are so many fake/questionable cars that allegedly originate from Florida? Couldn't have anything to do with the fact that much of the fake paperwork originates from a certain scumbag in Florida, could it?

[mr 707]

that certain scum bag has been faking paperwork- protecto plate- booklets- window stickers for along time ((80s )) There isnt a protecto plate i trust because i know they found hundreds of original(( booklets)) in boxes in out of business chevy dealships. When the prices of corvettes(( 1967 435s) when to 100k in the late 80s thats when this problem came to the hobby.

[bergy]

1. paperwork, 2. Ownership history, 3. Certifications......I wonder how far back the ownership history (with good phone numbers) goes on the subject car?

[Lynn]

Well, he claims to have purchased from the original owner. That first owner would have to be the name on the POP, Kenneth Wright.

<span style="font-weight: bold">From the AutoTrader ad:</span>
Since restoration of the entire car, it has been driven less than 10 miles. Mileage at purchase of car was 33,700 (exempt on Florida new title) <span style="font-weight: bold">I am the restorer and second owner.</span> This one has all the correct nuts and bolts and has passed the test of all scrutiny. Search till your heart's content, you will not find another one like it. Jack O'Donnell Contact me by phone only 352-610-4136

Would like to know who did the docs for him.

[Lynn]

Well hells bells! Now I see the problem with this car. One of the guys working on it is wearing a furd shirt.

[kwhizz]

Looks like that address is now a Boat storage facility....

[bwag]

The AutoNation Chevy store is at that same address. A friend of mine was the aftermarket sales manager there and I was in the building 5 years ago. AutoNation bought up a lot of dealerships in the early 2000s.

[Lynn]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kwhizz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looks like that address is now a Boat storage facility.... </div></div>

You are correct.

[Lynn]

Also find it funny that the last vin out the door in September was 692602 and yet this vin (690139) was ORDERED on October 28. Quite a trick.

[kwhizz]

Typical of L89 cars.......

[Billohio]

Odd stuff with dates. 6 months after JL8 was available. I am going to auction tomorrow. Should have left yesterday. Minus 10 wind chill appeared again

[dblclutchkid]

I can't speak for the car but I can speak for the lore surronding the owner,
&quot;Kenny Wright&quot; who stunk &amp; didn't bathe according to a local restorer.
The local restorer was chasing after the hoarding nutcase to shake out three rusted projects that had been sitting out in the front yard for 40yds. In fact, as the story goes, the restorer cuts a deal with Kenny all agreed, &amp; before the restorer could return with the cash, Kenny had taken a note to the restorer's local shop fence, &quot;Sorry changed my mind&quot;. So no cars ever for the restorer but the case for this guy Kenny having a number of intersting big block cars (that he bought on time, new from the local Jim Quinliin Chevrolet in Clearwater, FL) is strong. Eventually Kenny up &amp; died &amp; the girlfriend sold off the cars, maybe 5 years ago. A buyer up in the Brooksville, FL area secures a few of the really good ones. The black JL8/L-89 car was one of them. I've seen the car final fininshed for Mecum at the SAME restorer's shop who missed out on the three cars out in the front yard years ago (two were a butternut camaro 68 L-35 car &amp; a 1970 big block camaro)I've also seen copies of the orginal Jim Quinlinn docs (in the resto shop with the car) &amp; they all show matching Kenny Wright signature's that are impressive, regardless. The dealer invoice in particular is impressive in authenticy &amp; looks legit. Interestingly enough I ran across the location of a small block Z street legend, by chance, snooping around &amp; asking questions. So I located his house &amp; the not running 1968 Camaro tunnel rammed rocket was still in the garage. I once vistied the car/owner 32 years ago &amp; what a bizarre step back in time this was....... I saw the car in its' then prime when the then feared 35 YO owner was crisp &amp; ready to throw it down on the street. I eventually questioned him about Kenny Wright (after talking at length about his car &amp; parts) &amp; he said, &quot;Yep I knew Kenny, he had all big block camaros over there; I was the small block king, but we never raced&quot;.

So the restorer accounts for the original owner &amp; his front yard cars, not knowing off what was out back. There were more cars out back &amp; the buyer of the black JL8/L-89 car was reported as hopping the back fence to get a look under the hood of the non running/tarped car super car. After lifting the ajar hood &amp; seeing the AL heads,the buyer quickly closed the hood, hopped back over the fence, rushed back out front to close the deal before the others showed up with their money/offers. It was that hot a local car topic at eventual go time. People had been hounding Kenny non-stop for years. He might have been been a stinking idiot who didn't take a bath &amp; let his cars go, but, the guy had plenty of insight to order the cars he did (buying them on time),putting them up, knowing all along he really had something special.
Then the grilfriend went on took the money &amp; run.......

And that's all I know:)

[Lynn]

1. How about filling out a profile with a real name?
You can look at mine. Anonymously coming on a forum and &quot;vouching&quot; for the validity of a car is questionable at best.
2. How would you know that the &quot;copies of the orginal Jim Quinlinn docs (in the resto shop with the car) &amp; they all show matching Kenny Wright signature's that are impressive, regardless. The dealer invoice in particular is impressive in authenticy &amp; looks legit.&quot;??? What were you comparing them to? Yes they look legit to the untrained eye.

3. Can you explain how a car that had already rolled off the line in Sept was <span style="font-weight: bold">ordered</span> on Oct. 28?

4. By the &quot;restorer&quot; you mean Edward J. O'Donnell?

5. Girlfriend's name? BTW just being someone's girlfriend doesn't entitle you to sell the car. Are you talking about Cindy? It also doesn't jive with Mr. O'Donnell's story that he bought the car from the original owner.

I am calling BS until I see a copy of the signed title from Kenneth Wright to Edward J. O'Donnell. Seriously, if I had purchased a one owner L89, I damn sure would have run a copy of the title before turning it in for transfer to my name. Anyone who didn't do that would be a fool.
If the car has been in Florida since new, it should be easy to trace the title.

The facts (so far):

1. This car did not come with JL8, not if it was ordered on Oct 28, long after the JL8 option was discontinued.
2. This car rolled out of the factory in Sept., but was somehow special ordered Oct 28.
3. This car did not come with the ducted hood or there would be a hole above the fuse block hole.
4. This car did not come with a tach, as it clearly does not have the gauge package, and without the other gauges, it would have a smaller (17/32) hole below the fuse block for the tach wire.
5. This car did not come with a rear spoiler. Pictures in progress clearly show a hole in the RR quarter for rear antennae, something that was not available with rear spoiler.

Would like to see a clear pic of the engine stamp, partial vin stamps on the engine and trans, and the trim tag.

[iluv69s]

hey dblclutchkid,


R U da guy wit da hemi in da river?? or da ZL-1 tow truck??
....or U da guy dat was gonna take 40 bikers and go buy dat der Yenko Camaro?


seriously, I'm just kidding... I hope the story is all true !!! Would be an awesome car !!!

[Stefano]

The Blacked out tail panel is a nice touch. Must be for real L89 Cars only.

[PeteLeathersac]

124379N690139
If the auction house pays no heed to whether a car's real or a fraud job, who and how do they come up w/ these auction estimates...195,000-225,000 in this case?
Previous thread...
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/550874/Re:_This_one's_got_it_ALL!
The stinky guy story was cool, sounds like Kenny was a real car guy!
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[Kurt S]

Doesn't change that the docs for the car aren't real..........

[Billohio]

I looked the car over today and saw copies of the docs. Build sheet looks perfect, no torn edges, nothing missing. No spring marks either. I saw the block stamping and the vin is by the filter. I have seen several stamping in the past and here. Other cars here I used my phone for a picture and blew it up so you could read the stamp. This car was the clearest vin stamp I have seen in this location and I didn't have to blow the picture up.

[mr 707]

the mecum discription says it also has the window sticker????

[Lynn]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Billohio</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I looked the car over today and saw copies of the docs. Build sheet looks perfect, no torn edges, nothing missing. No spring marks either. I saw the block stamping and the vin is by the filter. I have seen several stamping in the past and here. Other cars here I used my phone for a picture and blew it up so you could read the stamp. This car was the clearest vin stamp I have seen in this location and I didn't have to blow the picture up. </div></div>

Bill: Can you get (and post) a clear pic of the trim tag?

[Stefano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Billohio</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I looked the car over today and saw copies of the docs. Build sheet looks perfect, no torn edges, nothing missing. No spring marks either. I saw the block stamping and the vin is by the filter. I have seen several stamping in the past and here. Other cars here I used my phone for a picture and blew it up so you could read the stamp. This car was the clearest vin stamp I have seen in this location and I didn't have to blow the picture up. </div></div>


I'm not saying this is the case with this Camaro, but FYI.

I inspected and researched a proposed 1969 L89 Camaro a while back. Turns out that the Camaro was a real and more popular L78, which was decked, properly rebroached and stamped with the original date, but for the L89 code and of course the correct date coded aluminum heads were added. So everything lined up, parts, patina date codes and originality, including the original engine with the original VIN stamp.

[camaromb]

Similar to the supposed L89 that was originally an X11 taged small block and the original trim tag was modified to X66. It was done so well it was impossible to tell.

[Lynn]

And the tag:

[m22mike]

Nice... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/no.gif

[Lynn]

Amazing, all the trouble they went through to fake this car, &quot;original (deceased) owner&quot; window sticker, trim tag and they FORGOT to put the D80 on the tag. I am guessing the spoiler option is shown on the build sheet. I haven't seen a copy of the build sheet. Spoilers are shown on the aged window sticker as well as the order:

HEY: dblclutchkid, are you as impressed with the trim tag as you are that &quot;original&quot; dealer paperwork.

[Stefano]

As noted earlier, probably not a spoiler car since it had a rear antenna prior to restoration.

[Lynn]

I agree. I was just surprised they added it to the car, to the order, to the window sticker, but forgot it on the trim tag.

[Kurt S]

It wasn't black, it wasn't an L89, it wasn't a JL8.
Hey, but at least it's a 69 Camaro!

[iluv69s]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lynn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And the tag:

</div></div>


fake tag yes?? im no expert, but <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif

[ds1]

The rivets holding the cowl tag on look like replacements. Every car I have owned has had sealer in the rivets holding the cowl tag on. Is the listing of 396/375 L78 correct then L89 under it correct?

[kwhizz]

I'm glad to see this car allowed to get put under the microscope by the members here......After all.....this site is all about protecting the &quot;Pedigree&quot; of the True Detroit produced Musclecars...........Great Job!!!..........Funny how those L89's seem to just fall out of the sky!!!

[m22mike]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iluv69s</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lynn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And the tag:

</div></div>


fake tag yes?? im no expert, but <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif
</div></div>

Yes, a reproduction cowl tag.

[ds1]

Tag does not have D80 but the window sticker does. I also questioned the L89 on the window. The Camaro White book lists the L89 as an option by itself with a cost of $710.95 and 311 being produced. Which is correct for the window sticker?

[Xplantdad]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kwhizz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm glad to see this car allowed to get put under the microscope by the members here......After all.....this site is all about protecting the &quot;Pedigree&quot; of the True Detroit produced Musclecars...........Great Job!!!..........Funny how those L89's seem to just fall out of the sky!!! </div></div>

Agreed!

[Lynn]

Not the best image, but just for comparison, a real 09D tag from a spoiler car, although one that has been separated from the car. Look for it to show up on a &quot;real deal&quot; Z/28 one of these days.

Not sure who posted this one, but it was probably for sale on ebay or craigslist at one time. I know the guys at CRG are keeping a database of fake and loose trim tags.

[dblclutchkid]

Hi Lynn,
Agsin basically, I have no comments on the car except the interesting history &quot;a &quot; local restorer (I mislead as &quot;the&quot; local restorer) shared in a local story to me about his chasing Kenny Wright for 3 of his front yard cars. That was his expereince that I found interesting &amp; chose to share on the forum. As I'm far from an expert I would not know a fake invoice from a real protecto plate, excpet that I have car buddies who might &amp; OK fine. I saw the restored car at &quot;a&quot; local restorer's shop &amp; heard a cool local story about the alleged original owner. For what's it's worth, the post sparked plenty of member participation particularly yours......Mahalo from Maui (for the week &amp; the surf is going off)

[dblclutchkid]

Hello iluv69's,

I'm a nobody in the elite realm of this site &amp; that's fine, I have fun driving my few whatever cars, peace brotha

R U da guy wit da hemi in da river?? or da ZL-1 tow truck??
....or U da guy dat was gonna take 40 bikers and go buy dat der Yenko Camaro?


seriously, I'm just kidding... I hope the story is all true !!! Would be an awesome car !!!

[Lynn]

Thanks for the response. Good to know it is just a story you heard from someone else. Guys that fake these cars tend to put together elaborate stories that are difficult to check out.

Have fun in Maui.

[bwag]

The car sold for $200,000..Wonder where its going??

[PeteLeathersac]

Possibly to litigation?
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif
~ Pete

[Bill Pritchard]

Many times, ignorance is bliss.

[69LM1]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lynn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not the best image, but just for comparison, a real 09D tag from a spoiler car, although one that has been separated from the car. Look for it to show up on a &quot;real deal&quot; Z/28 one of these days.

Not sure who posted this one, but it was probably for sale on ebay or craigslist at one time. I know the guys at CRG are keeping a database of fake and loose trim tags. </div></div>

Here's one of my cars:

http://www.69lm1.com/x66d80/ttag.jpg

Rich

[Billohio]

I didnt stay that long but someone sure got the shaft there. It was a pretty car but I didnt like the block stamps at all. I think most people that have looked for the VIN by the filter would have been suspicious. I saw some cars that the buyers must never have looked over before they bid. Unreal. A buddy and I spent 3 hours under a car last night and this morning that didnt sell and still not sure what to think of it! Narrowed down what is not correct on it anyway.

[Kurt S]

I've stated before I don't think the car is real.
Docs are fake. Tag is fake. Drivetrain looks restamped.
Thanks Bill for the pics!

[Lynn]

This is a sad day for this hobby. As a nice clone car it does, of course, have some value. Maybe $60k or there about. Didn't a nice clone ZL1 recently bring around $50k? It would be a lot harder to come up with a complete ZL1 motor than to put a fake L89 together.

If someone were selling forged Renoir as an &quot;original&quot; Renoir, he would likely be prosecuted.

[Lynn]

OH, and yes, great job getting pics Bill.

[bbbentley]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lynn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is a sad day for this hobby. As a nice clone car it does, of course, have some value. Maybe $60k or there about. Didn't a nice clone ZL1 recently bring around $50k? It would be a lot harder to come up with a complete ZL1 motor than to put a fake L89 together.

If someone were selling forged Renoir as an &quot;original&quot; Renoir, he would likely be prosecuted.

</div></div>
As a side, there are NINE 69 SS 396 cars on Ebay right now and by the pics, maybe one of them is a real deal. It makes me sick as none are being advertised as bogus. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery it is said until someone, like myself, would try and sell my real deal car and have to defend it as such with all the fakery out there. Of course, selling is not in the picture for the foreseeable future.

[kwhizz]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lynn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is a sad day for this hobby. As a nice clone car it does, of course, have some value. Maybe $60k or there about. Didn't a nice clone ZL1 recently bring around $50k? It would be a lot harder to come up with a complete ZL1 motor than to put a fake L89 together.

If someone were selling forged Renoir as an &quot;original&quot; Renoir, he would likely be prosecuted.

</div></div>


&quot;Bingo&quot;

[bergy]

Yikes! Can you imagine how badly the broach would have been worn to create those broach marks?

[Billohio]

I told my Buddy I hope they used good head gaskets!

[PeteLeathersac]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kwhizz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lynn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is a sad day for this hobby. As a nice clone car it does, of course, have some value. Maybe $60k or there about. Didn't a nice clone ZL1 recently bring around $50k? It would be a lot harder to come up with a complete ZL1 motor than to put a fake L89 together.

If someone were selling forged Renoir as an &quot;original&quot; Renoir, he would likely be prosecuted.

</div></div>

&quot;Bingo&quot; </div></div>

Or it could be a good day for the hobby if the buyer who after facts surface doesn't appreciate being made a fool of digs in his heels and does something about it?
Not sure which ZL1 clone went for 60 thou recently, perhaps you're thinking of the totally bogus ZL1 motored car that sold for $160 this past fall here in Canada wearing a claimed ZL1 #48 identity?
As for as the Renoir comparisons, in the art world crooks in cahoots buy each other's bogus 'works' at auction when real buyers don't appear touting them as genuine and great buys etc regardless of controversy.
These fraud pieces are put back on the block or held for a while first depending on how much of a kerfuffle ensued when last offered then another whirl given to find real money buyers.
Whether real buyers or crooks passing each other's items around the auction houses make their commisions so obviously they're better off financially to say nothing especially when if a refund is necessary they still get to keep their $.
Sound familiar?
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/bs.gif
~ Pete

[Vern B]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PeteLeathersac</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kwhizz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lynn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is a sad day for this hobby. As a nice clone car it does, of course, have some value. Maybe $60k or there about. Didn't a nice clone ZL1 recently bring around $50k? It would be a lot harder to come up with a complete ZL1 motor than to put a fake L89 together.

If someone were selling forged Renoir as an &quot;original&quot; Renoir, he would likely be prosecuted.

</div></div>

&quot;Bingo&quot; </div></div>

Or it could be a good day for the hobby if the buyer who after facts surface doesn't appreciate being made a fool of digs in his heels and does something about it?
Not sure which ZL1 clone went for 60 thou recently, perhaps you're thinking of the totally bogus ZL1 motored car that sold for $160 this past fall here in Canada wearing a claimed ZL1 #48 identity?
As for as the Renoir comparisons, in the art world crooks in cahoots buy each other's bogus 'works' at auction when real buyers don't appear touting them as genuine and great buys etc regardless of controversy.
These fraud pieces are put back on the block or held for a while first depending on how much of a kerfuffle ensued when last offered then another whirl given to find real money buyers.
Whether real buyers or crooks passing each other's items around the auction houses make their commisions so obviously they're better off financially to say nothing especially when if a refund is necessary they still get to keep their $.
Sound familiar?
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/bs.gif
~ Pete

Lot F254 in the Mecum auction on Friday was a ZL 1 clone that sold for $ 62k. Very nice car with a lot of original parts including an original 69 block.
I talked to the guy and his wife, from Houston, that bought it and they were ecstatic and couldn't believe it sold for that price. There was a HO 69 L 72 clone that later bid to $70 and was a no sale, go figure.


http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_detail...mp;startRow=281 (http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=FL0114-177112&amp;entryRow=283&amp;lottype=&amp;startRow=281)




</div></div>

[mr 707]

a stigma will be attached to this car forever. I wonder who bought it.? at 200k im sure the buyer felt it was a real car. If the car sold for clone money i think the seller would be off the hook.
someone here must know who bought the car???

[Lynn]

That's the one I was thinking of Verne.

Nice car for the money.

The fake L89 car in question would be worth about that, if properly represented.

Wonder if Mr. Edward J. (Jack) O'Donnell kept the original trim tag from car 690139?

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yikes! Can you imagine how badly the broach would have been worn to create those broach marks? </div></div>

You mean to say how sharp the blades were...<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif

[Born30YrsLate]

...looks like you can have one now built for 20% of the auction price...
Ebay Ad Pics (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Camaro-RS-SS-YENKO-COPO-Z28-1969-chevrolet-camaro-rs-ss-zz-8-copo-yenko-new-build-by-/271381419146?forcerrptr=true&amp;hash=item3f2f97d48a&amp;i tem=271381419146&amp;pt=US_Cars_Trucks#ht_9585wt_1238)

[jannes_z-28]

In the art world an auction house would be sure if the painting they sell is legit, it would ruin their name for ever if they sold a fake. And they would commit an illegal act. Apparently not a problem in the auto auction world...


Can't just about anybody call the FBI on this auction company, evidence in this case i clear.


Jan

[Lynn]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Born30YrsLate</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...looks like you can have one now built for 20% of the auction price...
Ebay Ad Pics (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Camaro-RS-SS-YENKO-COPO-Z28-1969-chevrolet-camaro-rs-ss-zz-8-copo-yenko-new-build-by-/271381419146?forcerrptr=true&amp;hash=item3f2f97d48a&amp;i tem=271381419146&amp;pt=US_Cars_Trucks#ht_9585wt_1238) </div></div>

The first 8 or 9 photos are from the Mecum auction ad. Wonder if those guys built the O'Donnell car.

[Jack_Tar]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jannes_z-28</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the art world an auction house would be sure if the painting they sell is legit, it would ruin their name for ever if they sold a fake. And they would commit an illegal act. Apparently not a problem in the auto auction world...


Can't just about anybody call the FBI on this auction company, evidence in this case i clear.


Jan </div></div>
The auction companies all state clearly on the descriptions that all of the information is provided by and represented by the seller and not the auction. That way it keeps them out of the &quot;misrepresented&quot; trouble.

[Billohio]

Does mecum or seller put estimated value in listing? If it's mecum they should research the cars. Trim tag was easy to see

[Lynn]

There is no way for the auction companies to vet all the vehicles that come through. While I can't appreciate the &quot;nod and wink&quot; approach that they all take, the REAL culpability is on the guys misrepresenting the cars.

[Fast67VelleN2O]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lynn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> the REAL culpability is on the guys misrepresenting the cars. </div></div>

This is the problem that American's suffer from today: &quot;Who can this be blamed on?&quot; Obviously it's never anyone's own fault these days. You are always going to have frauds and cheats. That's a given. It's the buyers fault. Anyone who puts their trust into someone or something that barely know anything about and then get burned by it, it's their own fault. Responsibility ultimately falls on the person forking over the cash.

[Fast67VelleN2O]

With the internet and access to information that we have today, there is no one else to blame but yourself for not doing the research, asking questions, and finding a knowledgeable appraiser.

[Xplantdad]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lynn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is no way for the auction companies to vet all the vehicles that come through. While I can't appreciate the &quot;nod and wink&quot; approach that they all take, the REAL culpability is on the guys misrepresenting the cars. </div></div>

Thanks Lynn...I agree.

[Xplantdad]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fast67VelleN2O</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With the internet and access to information that we have today, there is no one else to blame but yourself for not doing the research, asking questions, and finding a knowledgeable appraiser. </div></div>

Exactly!

[al8apex]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Born30YrsLate</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...looks like you can have one now built for 20% of the auction price...
Ebay Ad Pics (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Camaro-RS-SS-YENKO-COPO-Z28-1969-chevrolet-camaro-rs-ss-zz-8-copo-yenko-new-build-by-/271381419146?forcerrptr=true&amp;hash=item3f2f97d48a&amp;i tem=271381419146&amp;pt=US_Cars_Trucks#ht_9585wt_1238) </div></div>

So let's just go <span style="text-decoration: line-through">steal</span> borrow all the pictures we can of someone else's black 69 Camaro and pretend that is what we can do ...

or maybe they DID build the car in question ... ???

[Lynn]

Same thing I thought Jim.

They did not build it. I was curious and sent them this question: I noticed the first few pics are of the Jack O'Donnell L89 car that just sold at Mecum. Did you guys build that car?


Got this answer: That's a photo file. We have many pics of builds we have done. I just love that pic of the Camaro

[jannes_z-28]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jireh Customs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jannes_z-28</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the art world an auction house would be sure if the painting they sell is legit, it would ruin their name for ever if they sold a fake. And they would commit an illegal act. Apparently not a problem in the auto auction world...


Can't just about anybody call the FBI on this auction company, evidence in this case i clear.


Jan </div></div>
The auction companies all state clearly on the descriptions that all of the information is provided by and represented by the seller and not the auction. That way it keeps them out of the &quot;misrepresented&quot; trouble. </div></div>


Even so the auction company has a responsibility. I doubt that an art auction company could get away with that clause if they sold a fake painting of Picasso. And the same should apply here as well, they have obviously been participating in fraud here. A fake painting sold for less than this car would have stirred up a lot of fuss in the art business.


It could be simple for the auction companies if they asked the seller for a certificate of the car before entering the action. No certificate no sell.


Jan

[SuperNovaSS]

Certificate? If that was the case there would be no cars going through the auction at all.

Who would certify the cars? What if a car came up as being fake down the line? How long would the certifier be accountable?

It is easy to throw out a solution like this but much harder to make it reasonable in the real world. All it would do is make real cars much more expensive in my opinion.

Jason

[Kurt S]

Barrett-Jackson has hired automotive specialists to do inspections before the cars go across the block. So they are actually taking action....

[twertsy]

How about GM simply releasing their records? Problem solved.

[iluv69s]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barrett-Jackson has hired automotive specialists to do inspections before the cars go across the block. So they are actually taking action.... </div></div>

I wonder how they inspect the cars..and are the inspectors make/model specific?? With all the paperwork, this car could fool a lot of people.

I know some of the most renowned appraisal/certificate issuers have been bashed here for thier inspections.

..just think they are taking on liability and asking for more litigation... ???

[njsteve]

The inspectors are retired or current law enforcement officers who are checking for obvious VIN issues like VIN swaps, bad rivets, non matching dash VINS when compared to the body VINs, etc. They do not certify car's as &quot;authentic&quot;. They are only checking for law violations in a rapid triage line during initial check-in.

When I was at Mecum Indy there was a couple rows of cars that were moved to the &quot;lot of misfit toys&quot; where they parked those cars that did not pass the inspections. One was a 69 Judge. Several street rods, too. But cars get through - there was a horrendous VIN tagged 1971 440-6 barracuda convertible with a real BS27V VIN tag that had it's body vin welded over with another body VIN section on top. The attempt was at least 3/8&quot; taller than the surrounding metal on the cowl. The dash VIN was held on with Home Depot rivets...

[twertsy]

???..guy is looking for clear title and vin plate...WTF? (http://charlotte.craigslist.org/cto/4304858133.html)

[bbbentley]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: twertsy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">???..guy is looking for clear title and vin plate...WTF? (http://charlotte.craigslist.org/cto/4304858133.html) </div></div>
I don't know the individual and can't speak for his motives, but probably this guy is not so much wanting to make a fake high dollar replica, rather, has bought a Dynacorn body and wanting to title it. It is getting almost impossible to find a good car body these days. Most stuff is used and abused. The thing to do especially if you are wanting a &quot;pro touring&quot; type car is to get one of these new bodies and build a car from that. The laws are clear about VIN tampering and putting a VIN on these new bodies is not the way one is supposed to go about it, but it happens all the time. Truthfully, it has been going on for years with old pre-war hotrod cars and the resurgence of the &quot;ratrod&quot;. I can't tell you how many guys I've seen build a Model A Ford, buy a title for it and there you have it. These young ratrodders don't even care if the title is for a Model A. They have titles for anything. One guy had a old T body and told me it is titled as a 36 Plymouth. Another, told me his A is titled as a 41 Chev P.Up. I read a few articles about insurance companies not paying, as you are insuring (you have to prove) that your car is what you say it is. It is a real mess. In a way, being a hotrodder myself, I don't blame some of these guys. They are not intending to defraud anyone, they just want to drive their hotrod. To do it legit, here, in Ohio, you are supposed to get your car inspected by the Hwy. Patrol(it takes a long time to get appointment too) and then have a builders title issued. The problem with that is they put you through hell as far as DOT stuff and can impound your car if there is a question about a part, not to mention, some don't go this route because some car shows you cannot participate, because they allow only cars of a certain age and older and even though it is obvious a car is an old one, with a builder title, it does not qualify for entry or prizes. Getting back to the Camaro. If these pedigree cars keep their status as investments, like coins, Rolex's and art, this forgery problem will persist. It is getting to a point that you have to spend more time proving what you have is real than it is worth to me.

[Billohio]

One of the &quot;inspectors&quot; at BJ doing camaros and chevelles is an expert for those cars. He told me a year ago he was doing it and pretty excited to get the job. I think they are actually doing some authenticating

[69LM1]

Same thing i heard from one hired by BJ. Not a leo, but a known certifier in the community. He didnt mention issuing any certs, but more looking for obvious issues on behalf of BJ. I wonder if he looked at this car as he is a Camaro specialist.

I would think this opens BJ up for more scrutiny as they possibly had the car looked at by an expert, and as a buyer Id want to know those results before bidding.

Rich

[JohnZ]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yikes! Can you imagine how badly the broach would have been worn to create those broach marks? </div></div>

You mean to say how sharp the blades were...<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif </div></div>

As Bergy noted, worn blades in the broach create &quot;furrows&quot; <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/thumbsdown.gif, although not as bad as those in that photo; freshly-dressed or new blades leave hardly any broach marks at all. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[njsteve]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lynn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OH, and yes, great job getting pics Bill.

</div></div>

How could any potential buyer think that was an original block stamping? Looks like it was done an hour ago. Way too crisp and sharp.

[quick-bowtie]

Barrett Jackson has hired Jerry MacNeish (Chevrolet), Jim Mattison (Pontiac), Kevin Marti (Ford) and Dave Wise (Mopar).. to help verify cars

I personally saw first hand at this years auction a Blue 1970 Chevelle LS5 Convertible that was listed as numbers matching with documentation and after it was inspected the new description read RECREATION.

I think if the consignor list it as numbers matching with paper work the car get looked at a little more closely

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JohnZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yikes! Can you imagine how badly the broach would have been worn to create those broach marks? </div></div>

You mean to say how sharp the blades were...<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif </div></div>

As Bergy noted, worn blades in the broach create &quot;furrows&quot; <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/thumbsdown.gif, although not as bad as those in that photo; freshly-dressed or new blades leave hardly any broach marks at all. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif </div></div>

I guess intelligent sarcasm can be taken the wrong way right John? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif

The block is an obvious restamp and the surface looks prepped by a belt sander and hand files.

[Lynn]

VIN derivative by oil filter:

[Fast67VelleN2O]

Wow that's really bad.

[bbbentley]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fast67VelleN2O</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow that's really bad. </div></div>X2,or too good....to be real.

[Lynn]

Does <span style="font-weight: bold">anyone</span> know who bought this car?

PM me if you do.

Thanks.

[dabigpud]

Good evening everyone...

Hopefully some of you see this and we can get to the bottom of this fraud discovery together. I'm confident this could be the start of something very exciting.

Here's the quick run down on my discovery. By the way, this happened literally today.

I am a local law enforcement officer in Southern California and just this week purchased two project 1969 Camaros from a woman whose husband passed away two years ago here in Orange County, CA.

After meeting with her a few times last week before we struck a deal, we had shared various stories with each other in the process. During one of our conversations, she had mentioned they once had owned a 3rd Camaro; but it was stolen out of a parking lot circa 1990.

Any who, I didn't think much of it initially until reviewing some of the documentation in the stack of folders she gave me for my other 2 cars I purchased. As I flipped through the pages, I came across a couple documents related to another car with a different VIN. In her initial story, she mentioned their 3rd Camaro had been red in color. The document listed the VIN#124379N690139, a red 1969 SS 396 Camaro; dated 4/7/1990.

I still really didn't give it much thought until I turned to my friend while we were on the couch at my house and I loosely joked, "I wonder what will pop up if I Google their old VIN number on that car of theirs that was stolen 28+ years ago."

My mouth dropped as I looked at the results of my search. Well I'll be damned! There was their car! It was resurrected from the depths, painted black and given a fake history before crossing the Mecum Auction block at Kissimmee in 2014 and selling for a whopping $200,000!

During my search on Google, I also came across this very thread and was delighted to see 10 pages worth of criticism about the car's dubious history and suspect looking documentation.

I immediately called Mecum and left a voicemail for a gentleman who is supposed to call me back.

We HAVE to find out more about this car and bring justice to the last true owner of this Camaro! Any details about the vehicle's current owner would also be amazing!

[parkbrau]

Good job! Did you let the true owner owner know of this new discovery?

[ZLP955]

124379N690139 doesn't show up with a record in an NICB check......
Interesting, but would advise caution until it could be proven that was the car that the PO said was stolen.

[dabigpud]

Tim,

Right now I’m treating this as very preliminary. I notified the woman I purchased the 2 Camaros from of my initial findings on this 3rd Camaro they used to own and she will be going into the depths of her house in an attempt to find additional supporting documentation. Apparently, the car was stolen when her husband was on a road trip without her. I even joked with her and asked if it was possible that her husband gave her a false story and secretly sold the car while he was away and didn’t have the heart to tell her. But she was adamant that he wouldn’t have done such. However, she was confident he would NOT have had insurance on the car because he had a tendency not to have such on his play toys. Even though that sounds a bit moronic, I’m having to take it for face value. The other difficulty is she is unaware as to which agency would have taken the police report at the time as the car was being driven on a road trip at the time of its taking.

They owned the car for approximately 8-9 years throughout the 80s from about 1981/82-1990. Her husband restored the car himself at that time and it was red. Hopefully she can find me some more documentation and/or photographs.

With all of this being said...even if it was determined the car was NOT stolen (very unlikely based on her information), the black car being sold as an original with loads of supporting documentation definitely appears to be fraudulently sold as something it’s not.

Ryan

[cook_dw]

What docs do you have on the car in question? Is it just a police report that the car was stolen or ?? Great work nonetheless.

[dabigpud]

Darrell,

Right now, it is limited to only a few pieces of paper as it appears the paperwork was accidentally slipped into the two folders that were given to me for the two other Camaros I purchased from her. Mostly mechanic slips, etc.

However, the most interesting piece found so far is paperwork from an old (now defunct) auction house under the name of Donen-Hazard SPECTRUM Vehicle Auctions (Oxnard, CA) where it appears her late husband had made an attempt to sell the vehicle at one time. Based on the paperwork, the auction took place on Sunday April 8th, 1990. His vehicle was slated as Lot #425.

I've included some snippets of the paperwork showing the vehicle's description and VIN on the paperwork while cropping their information for privacy reasons.

Now clearly at this point, it's just an interesting story. I will gladly concede defeat if this new found discovery of mine gets debunked. However, at least initially, there appears to be no reason to believe the story so far is inaccurate.

When I spoke to his wife a bit more, she says it is entirely possible she may still have their original title for this vehicle buried in the paperwork. It may take some time, but I'll uncover as much as I can.

I think what makes this story more interesting than most is the fact that so many of you were speculative from the beginning on the accompanying paperwork that came with the car as it rolled through Mecum in 2014. Plus, the fact that car sold for so much dang money is also intriguing.

This is as much about getting justice for the last true owner of the car as it is for the current owner who unwittingly may have purchased a falsified car.

[cook_dw]

Correct and I agree with everything you have stated. I was just curious/hopeful the docs would have been a pop or dealer invoice etc. Unfortunately the info listed could be due to a paint change and the trim tag still code 10-10. Playing devils advocate. Though I doubt that was the case since this cars trim tag was/is fake.


Hopefully the gentleman's wife will find more important documentation about the car or better yet track the car from the state it was stolen to the first known state this car reappeared in.

[dabigpud]

I can assure you I will delve deeper into the story and uncover as much as possible if I find anything.

Is it sad that I'm more interested in the car she no longer has than the two I bought!? I guess it's the hunt for the truth that makes this exciting.

Hey, at least I got a 69 Z/28 and a 69 Pace Car outta the deal!

[cook_dw]

Nice! Start a new thread and post pics of those with info!!

[dabigpud]

Just posted a new thread regarding the other two Camaros :)

[mr 707]

doesnt the owner have the TITLE?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

... they once had owned a 3rd Camaro; but it was stolen out of a parking lot circa 1990.

... The document listed the VIN#124379N690139, a red 1969 SS 396 Camaro; dated 4/7/1990.

My mouth dropped as I looked at the results of my search. Well I'll be damned! There was their car! It was resurrected from the depths, painted black and given a fake history before crossing the Mecum Auction block at Kissimmee in 2014 and selling for a whopping $200,000!


In some other instances of stolen vehicles from back in the past - emerging years and decades later - the rightful legal previous owner received the car back in their possession. In most cases the car was in better condition (restored) than when it was originally stolen.

I hope she gets back a fully restored Black , Aluminum Headed upgrade .

The footsteps will lead right back to whomever re-tagged the car and fabricated the bogus history/documents.
That will take some explaining , and won't look real shiny to any investigator , even if that person wasn't involved with the actual theft 28 years ago. He won't be looking at an easy-out situation.

Even if what he did, had nothing to do with concealing previous theft, and was only based on profit margins, he's real deep in the ugly zone now.

No legalities on swapping a trim tag , or recreating fantasy documents , but probably a big Catch-22 when the car involved winds up having been stolen and a laundered title.

:youguysrock:

[dabigpud]

Mr707,

I’m working on that now with her. At this point it remains to be seen but you would think that she does. Given that, as many relationships are, the man’s hobby (and he’s now deceased), it may take her some time to uncover what we would need to help her. But as the story unfolds I will try to keep you all in the loop.

[Lynn]

doesnt the owner have the TITLE?

If you are talking about the current owner, yes, I am certain he has a title.

I can tell you that the Florida title was created from an "air title" acquired through Georgia, where they do not require titles on older vehicles.

Sending Ryan a PM.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

... he claims to have purchased from the original owner. That first owner would have to be the name on the POP, Kenneth Wright.

<span style="font-weight: bold">From the AutoTrader ad:</span>
Since restoration of the entire car, it has been driven less than 10 miles. Mileage at purchase of car was 33,700 (exempt on Florida new title) <span style="font-weight: bold">I am the restorer and second owner.</span> This one has all the correct nuts and bolts and has passed the test of all scrutiny. Search till your heart's content, you will not find another one like it. Jack O'Donnell Contact me by phone only 352-610-4136


... but the case for this guy Kenny having a number of intersting big block cars (that he bought on time, new from the local Jim Quinliin Chevrolet in Clearwater, FL) is strong.

I'm guessing Chevy Enthusiasts didn't have NCRS data available yet in 2013/2014 when this car was being offered/discussed .

If it were applied for now (NCRS), doubtful that it would come back showing Quinliin in Florida. That would be even more evidence stacked against the bullsquat.

Someone sure knew the legacy of Kenneth Wright well enough to exploit the hell out of his death. Very in-depth and highly executed fraud from start to finish. Jack-O will probably be getting another call or two about the car and etc ...

WoW

[dabigpud]

All of this information is very insightful. I can assure you that we will spend a vast amount of time trying to gather as much information as possible and take actions to remedy this to the fullest extent of the law.

It is so wonderful to see all of this information coming in. Some information has already come in privately that is very intriguing.

Thank you to both Lynn and Baron.

Lynn I will respond to your PM soon. Definitely going to connect.

[mr 707]

Mr707,

I’m working on that now with her. At this point it remains to be seen but you would think that she does. Given that, as many relationships are, the man’s hobby (and he’s now deceased), it may take her some time to uncover what we would need to help her. But as the story unfolds I will try to keep you all in the loop.

maybe the california DMV has something.

[The Boss]

Following.

[mssl72]

I thought we had a popcorn smiley? I'm going to need some while following this thread.

[cook_dw]

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