1969 Copo ?

[brent396]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/231162189837?ssPageName

[bbbentley]

Yea, I saw that last night, but I am not seeing it! You would think that some of the tell tales would have had pics-firewall,eng.compartment, etc... Seems it would benefit seller to have less pics of trunk and side view of car and concentrate on what evidence he has to back up his claim. Is it on this site as hinted? I could not find it. I cannot make out the rear end code...assuming it is BE he is trying to show?!

[NovaMob03]

April L posted/inquired about the car around March 2012.

[RPOLS3]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NovaMob03</div><div class="ubbcode-body">April L posted/inquired about the car around March 2012. </div></div>

Click here for April L COPO thread (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/484210/1)

[bbbentley]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RPOLS3</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NovaMob03</div><div class="ubbcode-body">April L posted/inquired about the car around March 2012. </div></div>

Click here for April L COPO thread (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/484210/1) </div></div> Ah! Thanks guys. I read it. Nice novel. 9 pages of...NOTHING. I like the fact that April L starts out wondering if she has a COPO. By page 9, she admits she is ignorant of just about anything to do with a car, yet she went buying a race car??!! Headline: Naive girl buys car and gets a bunch of experienced geezers to corroborate a myth. Why put it up for sale until its history is vetted and proven beyond a doubt? Why not invest in or borrow a decent camera? What you have April L is a highly modified race car with more holes and rivets than a Grumman F6F Hellcat nothing more at this point. Hey, this afternoon, I am taking all the &quot;goodies&quot; off my very original SS 396 car and putting them on the yellow X11 out in the yard, then getting my crappy cell phone camera out to take some out of focus pics. Man, am I going to get rich. Sorry I am so jaded and skeptical, but haven't we seen it all! Show me the carfax,lol.

[Salvatore]

GO bb GO!

[bbbentley]

The revised add now has reference to &quot;COPO&quot; no less than 15 x's. I guess if you say it enough, it will make it come true. You ever hear of &quot;less is more&quot;? The plethora of inaccuracies and statements lead one to question more, than less, the credibility of the statements used to support the claim. In the original add, it was stated that racers changed parts and sold off stuff. Could this car have a rear end that was traded for or bought through a fraternity of other racers? How many race cars have deluxe interiors and although all other components are gone, those pieces seemed to stay with car? Please, I am not putting down the person or the car, just my observations as an unbiased observer. I have heard and seen many reports about Bigfoot, but the more I hear and see and the more I say Bigfoot, does not make it anymore a fact.

[Charley Lillard]

Maybe when NCRS has the name of the selling dealer we can shed more light on it.

[Lynn]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe when NCRS has the name of the selling dealer we can shed more light on it. </div></div>

X2. I don't think most guys realize how huge that will be.

[69LM1]

Says RS but missing the back up lights?

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NDc4WDY0MA==/z/ly8AAOxy0bRTBAWv/$_3.JPG

Rich

[camaromb]

The BDY number/ vin is in line with other documented Copo cars. Curved neck radiator looks original, no RS backup lights in tail panel?, interior sprayed black. If that is a real BE its hard to imagine a coincidental swap with a date that is a known BE date and one that fits with the car date wise. I would expect this will be found out to be a real Copo, but being frost green/deluxe green interior it will take a dedicated person to restore this one. The selling dealer information that is imminent will be very helpful, if it turns out to be a known Copo dealer of course.

[COPO]

For the $20K starting price it is probably worth taking a chance. I just don't like the colors which would be the only reason for me not to pull the trigger. The price is low enough if it does not turn out to be a documented COPO, you haven't lost too much. The car could pretty easily sell for around $10K without the COPO story, so little risk if you like the colors and are looking for a 69 Camaro project.

It would take a closer inspection to see if it was actually a factory RS car as I have owned two different 1st gen. Camaro cupercars where the rear panel was crudely filled to remove the back-up light cut outs. This was not unusual to do on race cars to remove weight.

I hope someone here picks it up as I am curious to learn more about the history.

[COPO CARTEL]

Run an NICB on the car ....check date on the radiator ....Keystone car ...could mean Pennsylvania ....a Yenko is 20 vins away and several cars are sprinkled very close to this including Sandlins old Azure RS Copo car Looks to be an automatic car . 6-10 Rearend date is well known and documented.

[jannes_z-28]

As I pointed out in the AprilL thread, it has a TH400 crossmember. X11D80 on the tag it shouldn't have a TH400 crossmember unless it is a COPO.

[bbbentley]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jannes_z-28</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As I pointed out in the AprilL thread, it has a TH400 crossmember. X11D80 on the tag it shouldn't have a TH400 crossmember unless it is a COPO. </div></div>
So, let me get this straight. I have a T400 X-member laying out in my shop. I own an X11 car. All I have to do is take the X-member and bolt it in my car an wala, a COPO? Point is, X-member, Rear end and anything else has BOLTS, meaning it can be removed and switched. Back in the day, most of the parts cited exclusive for a BB car were readily found at swap meets, salvage yards and over the counter from Chevrolet. It is stated the car was a long time race car. You don't think 4 core radiators, x-members,T400's and such were a dime a dozen back when this car was being modified? Before this became a rich man's hobby, those cars where cheap, teenager abuse machines. I know, I still have mine.

[bkhpah]

This car would be a real killer COPO if it checks out, and it has a lot of traits in place. IMO a very rare Frost Green COPO with a black vinyl top with X11 style trim, D80, and black pin stripes would be stunning. I do not recall ever seeing a FG COPO, plenty of Fathom and Rally green ones. This fresh Frost Green/ green interior Z/28 is a great example of just how cool that car could be....BKH http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2014/02/full-10-9804-edsc_5601_copy.jpg

[68l30]

Damn that's classy! Love the contrast with the black accents <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif



BIG

[iluv69s]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe when NCRS has the name of the selling dealer we can shed more light on it. </div></div>

Whennnn ???

[brent396]

Smoking !!!!!! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/3gears.gif

[markinnaples]

That green Z is beautiful. A shame &quot;off&quot; colors such as Frost Green, Fathom Green, and Gold get a bad rap, they look great when done nicely. Plus, those were THE colors bitd.

[68l30]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: markinnaples</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That green Z is beautiful. A shame &quot;off&quot; colors such as Frost Green, Fathom Green, and Gold get a bad rap, they look great when done nicely. Plus, those were THE colors bitd. </div></div>

You'd be surprised how many like those colors today....I believe, the stereotype is just that.


BIG


&quot;Keeping earth tones alive since 85&quot;

[John]

&quot;As I pointed out in the AprilL thread, it has a TH400 crossmember. X11D80 on the tag it shouldn't have a TH400 crossmember unless it is a COPO.&quot;

Jan, when you state this .... is that because if the car came with a big block motor and turbo 400 transmission and it was not a COPO then there would be a DIFFERENT &quot;X&quot; Code on the cowl tag?
..... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif

[PeteLeathersac]

Again other dates are good also rear stamping although unclear is a known BE date too.
Being a drag car its whole life it's lucky the cowl tag is even still there!
Surprising someone here hasn't arranged an eyeballs look to make a deal on what could be a stunning FG Copo!!!
Best of luck April whatever way things go!
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

---------------------

VIN 124379N664166
ST69 12437 NOR352686BDY
TR 725 59 B PNT
06A X11D80


http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2014/02/full-2506-9811-02_14_vin124379n664166.jpg


---------------------

[Thomas]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bkhpah</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This car would be a real killer COPO if it checks out, and it has a lot of traits in place. IMO a very rare Frost Green COPO with a black vinyl top with X11 style trim, D80, and black pin stripes would be stunning. I do not recall ever seeing a FG COPO, plenty of Fathom and Rally green ones. This fresh Frost Green/ green interior Z/28 is a great example of just how cool that car could be....BKH http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2014/02/full-10-9804-edsc_5601_copy.jpg
</div></div>

There was a Frost Green Copo project here in Ontario.
I looked at it but it was too much work for me at the time.
It was raced since day one and the original engine lasted two months.
I am not sure whatever happened to that car.
The last I heard, someone had bought it, started the restoration and then put it up for sale part way through.
I have never seen another one.

[COPO CARTEL]

I will say ...if the car is in Florida ....we have troops on the ground .....as we speak .....isn't that right B. E. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif

[bbbentley]

I have information about prior ownership (original) that may possibly be relevant to this car, but I am withholding till sale is final.

[Stefano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bbbentley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have information about prior ownership (original) that may possibly be relevant to this car, but I am withholding till sale is final. </div></div>

This has to be one of the all time &quot;jerk-off&quot; posts I have ever seen.

You've been spouting off about this car and now you have &quot;relevant&quot; &quot;original owner&quot; info, but your not going to share until AFTER someone buys the car?

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/thumbsdown.gif

[69 Post Sedan]

I just looked at the eBay ad....it appears someone pulled the trigger.

&quot;This listing was ended by the seller because the item is no longer available.&quot;

Kurt

[twertsy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bbbentley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have information about prior ownership (original) that may possibly be relevant to this car, but I am withholding till sale is final. </div></div>

This has to be one of the all time &quot;jerk-off&quot; posts I have ever seen.

You've been spouting off about this car and now you have &quot;relevant&quot; &quot;original owner&quot; info, but your not going to share until AFTER someone buys the car?

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/thumbsdown.gif </div></div>

I try to give everyone the &quot;benefit of the doubt&quot; so maybe he bought the car?? If not, X2

[bbbentley]

First, don't put words in my post or mouth! You are using quotes on words I did not use. 2nd. I resent an accusation of &quot;spouting off&quot;(and that is a quote,by the way)when I seem to be the only voice of reason. I merely have been playing Devil's Advocate, so to speak and looking at everything said from a factual point and trying to bring sanity to the claims. Yes, the car does have some &quot;signs&quot; of its history and claim of a COPO, enough, that I even give it some credence. I am not wanting to start anything with anybody, if anything,posters, here, should proof read what they write. There have been so many things that are stated as it has this...therefore it must be this. Maybe not what is meant, but what is being said, nonetheless. I am merely pointing out, which long ago before this car came along, true proof is documentation at this point. I spent some time researching what I have and found a something that may link a similar car which had a lead to the purchaser. This could be &quot;possibly relevant&quot; if someone wants to or is able to track down this person. I have no &quot;skin in the game&quot;. I thought , I would like to help. At this point, I would only help the seller generate interest (while not against, feel unless it really helped, why not just wait till it sells and buyer may want the info) At this point, it may have no relevance and may not have anything related, that is why I say &quot;may&quot;. Not trying to be secretive, jerky or anything of the kind. I probably should not have even mentioned I read in older publication about a similar car-in Florida. With so many mis-statements by the current sellers, they may take this information and make a claim which I do not feel is appropriate at this point whether intentional or not. I know the sellers are still learning about the car, but I dislike claims that are not factual, By the sellers or anyone else, for that matter and my responses were addressing those mis-statements, like, the car is an original 427 car(prove it), that is hearsay, everyone here should know that. Same with claim about only SS cars come with consoles-B.S. This whole thing is like a circus and the sellers have made it that way, IMO, by not being factual-not knowing what to or how to take pictures and a host of other egregious statements from here-which I am surprised to see. I expected the guys here to be the voice of reason, state the facts, that is why I like the guys here. A lot,lot lot of great talented, knowledgeable folks that I admire. Now, I am being skewered because I am right about all my post and assertions, you should admit. Devulging anything I may have at this point with so many mis-representation, would only ad to that scenario.A simple statement in the ad would have been,we believe this is possibly a COPO by the fact some existing components are present(which does not prove without a doubt) and based on its long race history consistent with many of the COPO cars and the pictures provided as evidence. We no way can be 100% an cannot unequivocally pronounce this car to be what we believe at this time . Further data and documentation would have to occur to draw a conclusion, you be the judge. This, I feel, would have been a factual, concise description that would have prevented the current flames from being fanned.

[BARRY]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bbbentley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First, don't put words in my post or mouth! You are using quotes on words I did not use. 2nd. I resent an accusation of &quot;spouting off&quot;(and that is a quote,by the way)when I seem to be the only voice of reason. I merely have been playing Devil's Advocate, so to speak and looking at everything said from a factual point and trying to bring sanity to the claims. Yes, the car does have some &quot;signs&quot; of its history and claim of a COPO, enough, that I even give it some credence. I am not wanting to start anything with anybody, if anything,posters, here, should proof read what they write. There have been so many things that are stated as it has this...therefore it must be this. Maybe not what is meant, but what is being said, nonetheless. I am merely pointing out, which long ago before this car came along, true proof is documentation at this point. I spent some time researching what I have and found a something that may link a similar car which had a lead to the purchaser. This could be &quot;possibly relevant&quot; if someone wants to or is able to track down this person. I have no &quot;skin in the game&quot;. I thought , I would like to help. At this point, I would only help the seller generate interest (while not against, feel unless it really helped, why not just wait till it sells and buyer may want the info) At this point, it may have no relevance and may not have anything related, that is why I say &quot;may&quot;. Not trying to be secretive, jerky or anything of the kind. I probably should not have even mentioned I read in older publication about a similar car-in Florida. With so many mis-statements by sellers they may make a claim which I do not feel is appropriate. I know the sellers are still learning about the car, but I dislike claims that are not factual, like the car came with a 427, as if they can prove it. That is hearsay. Same with claim about only SS cars come with consoles-B.S. This whole thing is like a circus and the sellers have made it that way IMO by not being factual-not knowing what or how to take pictures and a host of other egregious statements from here-which I was surprised to see. I expected the guys here to be the voice of reason, state the facts. A simple statement in the ad would have been,we believe this is possibly a COPO by the fact some existing components are present(which does not prove without a doubt) and based on its long race history consistent with many of the COPO cars and the pictures provided as evidence. We no way can be 100% an cannot unequivocally pronounce this car to be what we believe at this time . Further data and documentation would have to occur to draw a conclusion, you be the judge. This, I feel, would have been a factual, concise description that would have prevented the current flames from being fanned. </div></div> YOU SOULD GET IN TO POLITICS

[the427king]

&quot;YOU ShOULD GET IN TO POLITICS&quot;..............Barry, I hear the mayoral job in Toronto is the one to have??

[Unreal]

My opinion ain't worth much, but I don't think the sellers were trying to be deceitful.....just the opposite. If I ever have a possible COPO for sale, I'll get bbentley to write the ad. That way it will be flawless. And if it isn't he can't very well &quot;shoulda&quot; his own words.

[bergy]

I contacted the owner to make an appointment to inspect the car. I have NO interest in buying it, but I do enjoy looking at old race cars. The owner sent me a message that the listing was being withdrawn in anticipation of a certification inspection this weekend. He/she would not give me a contact phone number at this time. The only additional thing that I noticed from the eBay pictures - is it my eyes, or does the pass side TT rivet appear to be much larger in diameter then the drivers side rivet? I personally hope that it is an RS COPO - would be killer when restored!

[bbbentley]

I don't think the sellers were being deceitful either. They were just repeating things they had read and been told. I didn't have to be sarcastic when I made some earlier posts, but what irked me is that a lot of guys here are so well meaning, genuinely helpful and dag gone knowledgeable, and a car like this generates a ton of interest, no doubt, that everyone chiming in was not always careful to state as Sgt. Friday would say,&quot;just the facts,mam.&quot; This led to an ad on the ebay that was easy to discredit. Worst is, the sellers praised this site, and while not intentional, gave the site a black eye possibly by making us seem wrong in our facts, which is why the sellers got involve with sYc in the first place was to &quot;get it right.&quot; Had I not been on here for awhile, if one read what was stated and drew a conclusion that they must have learned what is stated off that site and those guys must not know anything. Mr. Lilliard and others have worked hard to make it not only a fun group of car guys(gals), but a group with credible knowledge. So, when I saw statements that easily be discredited, I got a little honked off and sarcastic. Like most , if not all, here, I too have seen it all...think I said that in 1st post.

[BARRY]

Keep politics off of this site.

[Charley Lillard]

Please keep this thread civil folks.

[Justbad Joe]

Not trying to stir the pot but are you a player on this car? I have seen very creditable people say this car is in line with a lot of known copos. Not saying it is a copo but you down playing the car might mean your a player. I know Bergy and Doug Perry will find out if it is what it is and hope this car will be something. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
Joe

[Salvatore]

Brent is a troublemaker! Freekin nova guys!

[Justbad Joe]

Not Brents fault. I am partial to nova guys. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/3gears.gif
Joe

[Justbad Joe]

Anybody know how it checked out? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif
Joe <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[bergy]

Last I heard, the owner was going to have someone &quot;certify&quot; the car. He told me the name of the certification person (I &amp; others never heard of him). I sent him a list of things to look for &amp; instructed him to make sure that nothing gets taken apart. He said that he wanted me to look at the car, but wouldn't give me his phone number. I'm still waiting for a call from him.

[William]

Nobody can certify a non-OE drivetrain no docs car as a COPO.

After 15 years in the Camaro business I sold every part needed to create the appearance. All the noise about BE axles and TH400 cross members cracks me up. In the late '80s one of our customers did a near-perfect clone using an 06A Florida car. Frost Green, green standard, automatic. Wonder where it is today...

[Charley Lillard]

I could see a situation where a known group of Copos were built for a dealer and done in a sequential run. Maybe this car could fall within that group. Example would be the body #'s before and after were both Copos. I would probably then think it was a Copo. Not enough to certify it but enough to believe it.

[William]

Even Gibbs ZL1s were not all in sequential body number order. The #3 ZL1 isn't in sequence with other known Berger COPOs.

All Camaro orders submitted by a dealer at the same time may be in body number order. JMs '69 book has Z/28 shippers for N623127 &amp; N632342. Body numbers are 307027 &amp; 307028. Dale Chev here in WI had many performance Camaros. 3 of their L72 cars still exist, one is not in body number sequence with the other two. I will bet some of the non-performance orders they placed are in sequence with all three.

As you noted, really doesn't mean much.

[the427king]

&quot;Nobody can certify a non-OE drivetrain no docs car as a COPO.&quot;...............I had a 350ss 4 speed late build x11D80 with factory cowl induction. If someone took a used heater box and core,3/8 fuel line, and a BE rear, and removed a few small block items, that car would be more &quot;certifiable&quot; than many ive seen.

[bergy]

Once again, IMO - original paperwork, ownership history, &amp; certification.......all 3 are important. It appears that the car in question has 0 of these 3 critical pieces (so far).

[COPO CARTEL]

At some point ....good old common sense prevails ....not the cookie cutter crap ....until you see it for your own eyes ...don't pass judgement .....to many negative people on this thread ....AND ....NO I AM NOT A PERSON OF INTEREST ON THIS CAR <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[William]

Judgment is defined as &quot;an opinion or decision that is based on careful thought.&quot;

In my case that is over 38 years in the hobby including 15 years of Camaro business experience. Just to ensure you get it I will repeat it.

Nobody can certify a non-OE drivetrain no docs car as a COPO.

[COPO CARTEL]

What's your problem. I can read YOUR OPINION ..and I do not need for you to repeat it ....visual is good medicine to form an opinion. Ones opinion is not the final say in any discussion....since we BOTH haven't seen this car ...I guess we both only have opinions .

[Charley Lillard]

Enough already.

[Stefano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: William</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Judgment is defined as &quot;an opinion or decision that is based on careful thought.&quot;

In my case that is over 38 years in the hobby including 15 years of Camaro business experience. Just to ensure you get it I will repeat it.

Nobody can certify a non-OE drivetrain no docs car as a COPO. </div></div>


William,

My intent with this post is not to challenge you only to provide another point of view. You and I as well some others in the industry completely disagree on this matter.

You can in some circumstances prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a 1969 Camaro is indeed a COPO L72 and in some cases you may also be able to prove some of the factory options on said vehicle.

Whether or not you individually choose to believe that particular vehicle is a 9561 COPO L72 is up to you. But the case wherein a certification can be provided by someone, is valid.

I have seen at least one certification from a prominent &quot;core member&quot; of CRG, wherein, the Camaro certified had no paperwork, none of the original drivetrain, was not directly in a body and/or vin sequence, had no dealer or long term owner history etc and did receive a certification. While I may not agree with that particular certification. It is obvious that in the hobby and even amongst CRG members that there are some varying opinions.

Certainly the perceived and or realized market valve of a paper-worked, documented and or original drivetrain COPO 9561 Camaro may far exceed that of one without such proof.

[William]

Hi Stefano:

Challenge away! I welcome intellectual debate. You have been around the cars as long as I have.

You’re correct; I do not agree. My position has everything to do with my long history in the hobby, virtually all of it involving the ’69 Camaro-bought my first in 1975. When I started out with CPX in the ‘80s buying/selling parts one often bought as much as they sold at a good meet. In fact I often walked those swaps with some of your buds: Stevie, George, Ron, The Hippie, Drew, Joe. Parts were everywhere and as a group we sold it all: disc brake sub frames, DZ engines, 837 alternators, 4053 &amp; 4346 carbs, 472 &amp; 163 intakes, YH &amp; XT wheels. We sold 2 BE axles [I know where they are…]. Many parts were still available from GM such as the TH400 cross member, BB frame mounts, fan shrouds. We stocked and sold all of that also. Now imagine 15 years of that exposure-where did all those parts go? The Frost Green clone I mentioned was certainly one recipient. Another was a triple black ’69 SS-RS convertible L78 clone, done correctly and to near perfection. I know for a fact it was re-sold years ago as being real. If you know what you are doing it isn’t hard to do.

So from my standpoint claiming a car is a COPO only because it happens to have all the correct componentry, holes, clips, whatever, is ludicrous. Several good books out there showing what is needed; plenty of parts around. This in particular applies to cars that have had a long rough life and cars that have undergone complete restorations. In both cases there is often virtually nothing original remaining; anything could have been done to them. A case might be made for a car that was in untouched survivor condition but just happens to no longer have its original engine or paperwork.

The CRG has no involvement whatsoever in “certifying” anything.

Some don’t care for my viewpoint; some may not care for yours. But as a couple of guys that have a long history in the hobby it is important that we speak our minds. Let the chips fall where they may.

[Stefano]

&quot;The CRG has no involvement whatsoever in “certifying” anything.&quot;

I believe the CRG has done a wonderful job of collecting and presenting data regarding first generation Camaros. I reference the published data often.

You and I can debate semantics, so call it what you will, but at least one of the CRG &quot;core&quot; members (this is stated as a credential on the actual certificates) will certify as well as render opinions regarding the authenticity as well as validity of a first generation Camaro and or parts and components to include COPOs as well as other vehicles, some of which are not Survivors, do not have any factory paperwork and sometimes do not even have one single original drivetrain component.

I'm not questioning your degree of knowledge regarding COPOs and their components, I would believe that you know as much as anyone regarding the subject matter.

Since you like to quote definitions, look up &quot;certification&quot;. You state that it can't be done, I disagree. While the credibility and value of a given &quot;certification&quot; may be subjective, it has been done.
.
I believe that calling out a potentially real factory original COPO Camaro is a good thing. I also believe that those who use their knowledge and info to restamp, retag, fake up cars and or parts and or purposely attempt to defraud people are criminals.

[DW31S]

I've been following this thread since the beginning and have come to a couple different conclusions.
First: I would say that the car is probably worth gambling on, although I am not interested in buying it. A decent '69 Camaro race car has some value and depending on how nice it is in person, the asking price isn't out of the stratosphere.
Second: I would consider this an &quot;entry-level&quot; COPO (a new term) as this car probably will never have the original components and/or documentation. This being the case, in my opinion, it may not warrant a high-end restoration as it might be a money losing proposition. How much is a non- numbers and non-documented &quot;possible&quot; COPO worth? Is it worth more than the price of the car, the price of the COPO-specific pieces that are missing, and the cost of the restoration including chrome, sheet metal , etc. when you total all of these things?
Third: William and Stefano and many others have voiced their opinions and each of those opinions are formed by data and experience. While these opinions do have validity, they do also differ. Opinions should differ---we are talking about a 45 year old race car with no supporting paper trail or any original documentation. I'd be more surprised if everyone thought the same.
The guys and gals here know their stuff, but instead of the bantering and cross examinations, why not pool the facts and draw a reasonable conclusion and see if there really is a hidden Supercar that has surfaced?

[markinnaples]

DW, There's no room for rational thinking and calm discourse on the internet!

[Stefano]

I'd keep it as a race car and run the &quot;Oldtimers&quot; as the Super Car Reunion........wheels up!

[Kurt S]

Stefano,
Jerry is a member of the CRG. Jerry certifies/appraises cars.
But that doesn't mean that the CRG does. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

No matter who does an appraisal, one should read the report and understand what the basis of the conclusion was.

[Stefano]

That is exactly one of my main points, you have one CRG member who states that you cannnot certify a COPO without factory paperwork and/or original engine/drivetrain and you have another who does without any of the above.

[Mr70]

I'm just curious...When Jerry certifies a camaro,does he state anywhere on the certification paper that he is a member of CRG?

[COPO CARTEL]

Some of these cars have been lost to badged up Z28 race cars ....I have been lucky ....of all the cars that I have purchased most of them did not have certain drivetrain components nor paperwork ...but based upon my inspection ...I considered them to be COPO cars....and not one has failed me thus far. My point is only to say if you do enough homework then eventually it pays off. We had this issue with the Radical One when we inspected it 2 weeks before the auction took place. It is healthy to disagree but wrong to discredit any particular car until it has been inspected...and only then it becomes an opinion. My black COPO was discredited...and with homework ...it was found to be one body number off another documented COPO from the same dealership and further homework turned up Joe Patrick of Marion Ohio ...the original owner. My point is ...you just can't quit on a car or part it out just because you have no paperwork or some/all of the drivetrain is missing.

[70 copo]

Since Doug has mentioned the black car in his post above the time is ripe to discuss it as my experience with it falls in line with the topic content.

The car was presented to me as an SS 396 but previously sold by a dealer as a COPO

The car had a rear end that was not a BE and had an assembly date that matched the production date range of the body/ VIN#.

Car had a reproduction Tach

Car had Q-Jet fuel lines on it.

Seller was evasive when I asked to do a more in-depth inspection. Seller became a non seller soon after and sold the car telling the buyer that I had verified the car as a COPO.

[COPO CARTEL]

Hmmm different story ....I was told that you inspected the car and the both of you could not agree upon a price. The seller contacted me after the both of you could not get a deal done.. that was his words to me . He never said it was a COPO ..but was hoping it to be and asked me to come and inspect the car. The Rearend in question was dated 10-8-69. That would be almost 2 weeks after the build date on the car ....as you looked at the reproduction tach you concluded that it was a 396 low horse car...and inspecting the date and axle code was a start to an intense inspection ..... I am the one that brought it to your attention that is was a reproduction tach and the big block heater box had never been touched.... As well as the trim tag with X 11 code had not been messed with or altered. Also some other COPO traits were still there . I guess the original owner Joe Patrick was the ace in the hole as I found him approx 9 months after I purchased the car. He is approx 74 years old and lives on Marion Ohio. Doing ones homework does pay off.... This particular car went on to score Legends at GM Carlisle.

[DW31S]

A little off topic but, would a bonafide, documented, unrestored, ex-factory backed &amp; dealer-sponsored '69 W-31 stick be welcome at the race Stefano speaks of in one of his latest posts? 'Cause I'm all about that &quot;Wheels Up&quot; stuff!!! I'm changing the rear and installing some fresh M&amp;Hs for this upcoming season. 2013 was an uneventful year due to my back surgery----2014 should be a whole lot more fun!!!

[Stefano]

Absolutely!

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C O P O CARTEL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmmm different story ....I was told that you inspected the car and the both of you could not agree upon a price. The seller contacted me after the both of you could not get a deal done.. that was his words to me . He never said it was a COPO ..but was hoping it to be and asked me to come and inspect the car. The Rearend in question was dated 10-8-69. That would be almost 2 weeks after the build date on the car ....as you looked at the reproduction tach you concluded that it was a 396 low horse car...and inspecting the date and axle code was a start to an intense inspection ..... I am the one that brought it to your attention that is was a reproduction tach and the big block heater box had never been touched.... As well as the trim tag with X 11 code had not been messed with or altered. Also some other COPO traits were still there . I guess the original owner Joe Patrick was the ace in the hole as I found him approx 9 months after I purchased the car. He is approx 74 years old and lives on Marion Ohio. Doing ones homework does pay off.... This particular car went on to score Legends at GM Carlisle. </div></div>
I hear you... first of all I want to say congrats on your COPO!!... but what the seller told you is not true. There was no price discussion

We did not get that far and I told you that when you contacted me after you bought the car, and again in our public &quot;Discussion&quot; at Good Guys.

After I found the car I discussed some initial reasons with the seller as to why I had doubts the car was a COPO: Low horse Tach, Q jet lines, Cowl hood with no guts, fresh looking radiator that did not match the patina of the rest of the engine compartment and the BB Heater box looking new or refinished... then there is the rear end discrepancy.

Already researching the book I reached out to the Norwood repair guys. These guys were the repair men at AGR and Supervision in 1969.

I was told that it was not at all uncommon for a car to sit in the plant holding lot out back for replacement parts to arrive and this could be well over a week or sometimes longer to get parts to repair -- especially on specialty low volume Hi Performance parts as the HOT specialty parts in the pipeline were already build committed-so replacement parts had to be salvaged or ordered for repair.

At the time I was thinking perhaps the car was a factory COPO with a defective BE rear? Perhaps the rear that finally made it to the car was a replacement rear end to get the car off to the dealer? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif I was really trying to talk myself into the possibility.

Next I contacted Arena Auto Sales and spoke to the salesman who placed the AD stating the car was a COPO which the seller had framed and on display with the car.

Arena Auto Sales guy remembered the car stated the car was dressed as a 396 but the TT was incorrectly coded for a 396 factory build. When I asked him why they advertised it as a COPO? He stated that the info on COPO's had just been released by the USCC at the time they had the car for sale and since the car had &quot;big block stuff on it&quot; and the car had a &quot;curved neck Radiator&quot; &quot;we advertised it as a COPO&quot;.

Several weeks passed and I called the seller back and told him I wanted to inspect the car again and I would take three hours to look it over and If I was convinced it was a COPO we would discuss the price. He took that one call from me and told me he would get back to me the next day. He did not call me back. I tried calling him again leaving messages to call me. I had all but forgot about the car until about 18 months later - my Secretary told me &quot;some Camaro guy was on the phone&quot; and that day you had told me you had purchased the car having gotten my information from the seller in Ashville.

On the Tach.. Yep I am giving your restoration guy the credit for stating it was a reproduction and I have no reason to disbelieve him to state otherwise would be to enter into a debate that is not needed. I think we both agree it was a low horse tach and obviously contributes nothing to proving COPO or not.

Again this discussion should not be taken as questioning Doug's car or his research. <span style="font-weight: bold">Again CONGRATS on your COPO Doug.</span>

This story does underscore the thread topic of discussion here of just how darn hard it is to authenticate a COPO car when the entire drivetrain is long gone.

[camaromb]

Didn't the black car have the original X11 coded trim tag? X11 coded 396 car?

[bergy]

Good discussion - sounds like Doug saw enough on physical inspection to take a chance - then, to his credit, he tracked down the OWNERSHIP HISTORY. People fake paperwork &amp; people fake car parts, but it's a lot harder to fake complete ownership history with contact info. I've had the same great experience tracking down old owners (with the holp of some really nice people on this site).
I truely wish that I could add more to the subject of this thread (the green RS car) - the owner hasn't called back yet.

[COPO CARTEL]

Yes Mark you are correct ...we are attempting to upload a photo of the engine compartment just after the motor was taken out by Dave McGaffee. We are challenged at the tech world Lol

[GrumpysToy]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2014/03/full-5642-9970-dsc03024.jpg
Here is a picture of Doug's Black COPO after I removed the engine. Single fuel line cut off at firewall, original heater box, original cowl induction selonoid and throttle arm etc....

[70 copo]

Yep that is the car alright. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[Kurt S]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is exactly one of my main points, you have one CRG member who states that you cannnot certify a COPO without factory paperwork and/or original engine/drivetrain and you have another who does without any of the above. </div></div>
So?? How does that involve CRG? This is a stretch.
Neither are posting or appraising as the CRG. Affiliation does not make CRG complicit in their statements.

[ZL1#61]

Did some one say that it had a shine heater box? looks like it has never be touched to me, also I NEVER seen a X11 with a 396!!!! someone also said it had the wrong fuel line (looks like a single 3/8 to me) NO cowl guts?? I can see in the picture the guts are there. ARE YOU GUYS TALKING ABOUT THE SAME CAR, If so I think some one is upset they didn't closed the deal before you Doug

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZL1#61</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did some one say that it had a shine heater box? looks like it has never be touched to me, also I NEVER seen a X11 with a 396!!!! someone also said it had the wrong fuel line (looks like a single 3/8 to me) NO cowl guts?? I can see in the picture the guts are there. ARE YOU GUYS TALKING ABOUT THE SAME CAR, If so I think some one is upset they didn't closed the deal before you Doug </div></div>

Same car. It also needed rear floors because they were hammer modified for large dual mufflers.

It is Doug's car-he says it is a COPO so it must be. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/burnout.gif

[GrumpysToy]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2014/03/full-5642-9971-dsc03047.jpg
Here is a picture of the floors.....nothing needed replaced just a little straightening here and there. Most people would love to start with a car this nice and solid, it even has the original quarters along with ALL of the other body panels intact.

[Unreal]

No guarantee of anything, but isn't that a small block clutch rod?

[COPO CARTEL]

You guys can see what I saw and draw your own conclusion as to why I bought the car.... Visual inspection is far better than looking at a monitor.

[Stefano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is exactly one of my main points, you have one CRG member who states that you cannnot certify a COPO without factory paperwork and/or original engine/drivetrain and you have another who does without any of the above. </div></div>
So?? How does that involve CRG? This is a stretch.
Neither are posting or appraising as the CRG. Affiliation does not make CRG complicit in their statements. </div></div>

The CRG is a tremendous resourse, none of my points are meant to be derogagtory to the CRG.

I'll try to make my main point again; <span style="font-weight: bold">1969 COPO 9561 L72 Camaros can sometimes be authenticated, verified and &quot;certified&quot; without any of their original drivetrain and/or with out any dealer paperwork.</span>

Point number two: A &quot;core member&quot; of an organization which specializes in first generation Camaros facts/data/assembly processes etc. states the opposite while another &quot;core&quot; member of the same first generation Camaro &quot;organization&quot; routinely certifies such Camaros as COPOs and happens to state his core membership of CRG as a credential of expertise on his certificates.

Who is the ultimate &quot;voice&quot; for the CRG? Does the CRG have any, even one single 1969 Camaros in their data base, which do not have paperwork or numbers matching drivetrains, which are classified as 9561 COPOs or potential COPOs?

[William]

Perhaps you overlooked one of my points in a previous post:

<span style="font-weight: bold">A case might be made for a car that was in untouched survivor condition but just happens to no longer have its original engine or paperwork. </span>

Why does it bother you that some CRG members disagree? Someone once said &quot;When two people in a business always agree one of them isn't necessary.&quot; We are no different than any other organization. Do you assume politicians, engineers, scientists, historians always have to be in agreement?

[Stefano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: William</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Perhaps you overlooked one of my points in a previous post:

<span style="font-weight: bold">A case might be made for a car that was in untouched survivor condition but just happens to no longer have its original engine or paperwork. </span>

</div></div>

A case might be made for a car that was in untouched &quot;unrestored&quot; condition but just happens to no longer have its original engine or paperwork.

Replace &quot;Survivor&quot; with &quot;unrestored&quot; and we are in agreement and thus not necessary.

[69LM1]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is exactly one of my main points, you have one CRG member who states that you cannnot certify a COPO without factory paperwork and/or original engine/drivetrain and you have another who does without any of the above. </div></div>
So?? How does that involve CRG? This is a stretch.
Neither are posting or appraising as the CRG. Affiliation does not make CRG complicit in their statements. </div></div>

The CRG is a tremendous resourse, none of my points are meant to be derogagtory to the CRG.

I'll try to make my main point again; <span style="font-weight: bold">1969 COPO 9561 L72 Camaros can sometimes be authenticated, verified and &quot;certified&quot; without any of their original drivetrain and/or with out any dealer paperwork.</span>

Point number two: A &quot;core member&quot; of an organization which specializes in first generation Camaros facts/data/assembly processes etc. states the opposite while another &quot;core&quot; member of the same first generation Camaro &quot;organization&quot; routinely certifies such Camaros as COPOs and happens to state his core membership of CRG as a credential of expertise on his certificates.

Who is the ultimate &quot;voice&quot; for the CRG? Does the CRG have any, even one single 1969 Camaros in their data base, which do not have paperwork or numbers matching drivetrains, which are classified as 9561 COPOs or potential COPOs? </div></div>

My car that was once listed at Nickey, Tin Soldier, has zero paperwork no original drivetrain, and has been certified as an original copo. Of course, the original owner is alive and verified the car, and it has nhra history.

Just an example.

Rich

[70 copo]

Helpful Hint...If the car has it's original heater box (and core) a good indicator is to pull the hoses and look at the nipples. An original Harrison core will always have the crimp restrictions on the lower as pictured below. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/burnout.gif

[m22mike]

Or maybe this little wire clip on a X11/X44 car.... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2014/03/full-2974-9975-cowl_hood_wire_clip.jpg

[Stefano]

The heater core is also date coded.

[enio45]

Mikeeee, I understand that wire clip is for the cowl induction wiring harness??

[x77-69z28]

You are correct sir!

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The heater core is also date coded. </div></div>


Like this:

[njsteve]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Helpful Hint... a good indicator is to pull the hoses and look at the nipples. </div></div>

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/blush.gif



Always look for an Adam's Apple first. Then you won't have to go through the embarrassment of your above mentioned step.

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: njsteve</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Helpful Hint... a good indicator is to pull the hoses and look at the nipples. </div></div>

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/blush.gif



Always look for an Adam's Apple first. Then you won't have to go through the embarrassment of your above mentioned step.


Especially if the car may have non COPO &quot;junk&quot; hiding under it's various parts... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/haha.gif

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif </div></div>

[Ryan1969Chevelle]

Great stuff.

Adams Apple........................funny.

Hidden Junk..........................funnyyyyyyy

Ryan

[COPO CARTEL]

And that would hopefully be a fish dinner not a meat and potatoes dinner <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/Can-I-Have-It.gif

[Craig_Maiorana]

Holy Moly did this thread get funny

[70 copo]

That is how we roll...once the goodies are laying out on the table we tell a few jokes... It all boils down to a few pictures some nipples, hiding Junk, and fish for dinner. Priceless.. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[Born30YrsLate]

...and I'm thinking if there's even a hose to pull u really don't want to see the associated nipples...but hey different strokes for different folks...

[Keith Seymore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: njsteve</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Helpful Hint... a good indicator is to pull the hoses and look at the nipples. </div></div>

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/blush.gif



Always look for an Adam's Apple first. Then you won't have to go through the embarrassment of your above mentioned step.

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif </div></div>

Especially when buying a Lola.

K

[John Brown]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Especially when buying a Lola.

K
</div></div>

That's rather Kinks y <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif

[SuperNovaSS]

Does anyone know what actually happened to this car?

Jason

[Xplantdad]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: John Brown</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Especially when buying a Lola.

K
</div></div>

That's rather Kinks y <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif </div></div>

LOL!

[COPO CARTEL]

Ok. Being a pitcher is always better than being a catcher ....batter up !!! Need to order a drink !!

[resto4u]

ThIS has got to be one of the longer threads about nothing. I will get back to watching the paint dry.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: resto4u</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ThIS has got to be one of the longer threads about nothing. I will get back to watching the paint dry. </div></div>

Yep..reading between the lines is tough, but I have to agree with you if nobody wants to tackle the issues presented in the thread or contribute anything additional to it-- all for fear someone will be offended by the truth--then the thread is indeed over.

[COPO CARTEL]

Phil ...let it go . Negativity is a dead end.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C O P O CARTEL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Phil ...let it go . Negativity is a dead end. </div></div>

What are you speaking to here Doug?

[COPO CARTEL]

X11....ORIGINAL BIG BLOCK HEATER BOX = COPO

[COPO CARTEL]

I am on an airplane...lets not banter.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C O P O CARTEL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am on an airplane...lets not banter. </div></div>

No banter-you have internet access.. what is bothering you?

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C O P O CARTEL</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> X11....ORIGINAL BIG BLOCK HEATER BOX = COPO </div></div>

Oh I get it the Original box that you posted pictures of with the nipples that are not clearly original Harrison.. Is that what you are talking about?? The box you told us was untouched?

Looks like someone put a core in it that is all... Still could be a COPO Right?

[Charley Lillard]

Phil you have been trashing the car by saying the rear floors need replacing and then we see what is in fact pretty nice floors. You say the car had quadrajet fuel lines and then we see a single line. You then go on to say it has a big block heater box that looks new or refinished and we are then shown what does not look like an new or refinished box. At this point I don't think anyone is going to believe whatever you say about this car. Can we stick to facts please and not bring some unknown agenda into this ? I'm about to lock this thread.

[Mr70]

Have to agree,this is all sounding like sour grapes for the most part.

[Stefano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SuperNovaSS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anyone know what actually happened to this car?

Jason </div></div>

It was completely restored and then Judged at the Camaro Nationals. I believe that it achieved one of the highest scores ever awarded to a COPO 9561 at that venue.

[enio45]

I think we should MBTMF the thread!

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Phil you have been trashing the car by saying the rear floors need replacing and then we see what is in fact pretty nice floors. You say the car had quadrajet fuel lines and then we see a single line. You then go on to say it has a big block heater box that looks new or refinished and we are then shown what does not look like an new or refinished box. At this point I don't think anyone is going to believe whatever you say about this car. Can we stick to facts please and not bring some unknown agenda into this ? I'm about to lock this thread. </div></div>

Charley,

A full year passed between the time I looked at the car and the time Doug bought it.

I told the original seller the reasons I believed the car was not a COPO.

The seller or someone must have acted upon what I told him and made some cosmetic changes to its appearance and then to top it off lied to Doug stating I had &quot;Certified&quot; the car which I did not.

When Doug called me after he got the car he became upset that I would not acknowledge that I had &quot;Certified&quot; the car.

Again at the Good guys (3 years later) in Columbus both My Wife and I were confronted in person with an uninvited Perry insisting that I confirm I had &quot;Certified the car&quot;. This was witnessed by several SYC members in attendance there. This was an ugly situation. Brian H and Arone were there.

The photos of the floors do not reflect the severity of the original damage which was clearly sledgehammer damage. I stand 100 Percent as to what the car was when I saw it. But...Apparently Doug has now located the original owner and it turned out to be a COPO after all.

Fakes are hurting the hobby and I thought that was what this thread was all about? How do you spot a fake with respect to the subject car on page 1, I had experience with the black car and I qualified my post original as not being a challenge to Perry or his assertions that the car was real.. then he posted the pictures as a way to create a rebuttal to my post about the car.

I am Ok with that, but on the same side you cannot make the claim that he does that the heater box in the picture is validation of COPO when it has an aftermarket core in it that is real clear to see.

I hope this is still the Premiere site on the web for this discussion - I fear we becoming too PC to discuss the obvious?

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SuperNovaSS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anyone know what actually happened to this car?

Jason </div></div>

It was completely restored and then Judged at the Camaro Nationals. I believe that it achieved one of the highest scores ever awarded to a COPO 9561 at that venue. </div></div>


That is my understanding...if everybody knows the original drive train is gone..how does a car score that high? Not being critical just asking...

[ZL1#61]

So Phil you passed on this car because the after market heater core?? I would love to see some pictures of the car when you looked at it the first time, If you say you told the owner what to look for and he made the changes, Please post the pictures.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZL1#61</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So Phil you passed on this car because the after market heater core?? I would love to see some pictures of the car when you looked at it the first time, If you say you told the owner what to look for and he made the changes, Please post the pictures.
</div></div>

I Did not pass in it I did not get the chance. I tried to perform the additional due diligence needed in an honest attempt to validate the car. I am left to conclude that I spooked the seller.

Doug has pictures and he has posted them. Doug has located the original owner and the car is a COPO.

If I post pictures the next allegation will be that they are photo shopped. If I am not believable with what I am telling you what would make me believe that posting pictures would change your minds? In review:

Doug introduced the allegation that His car was &quot;Discredited&quot; at post 560292 on page 7 which I read and this opened the discussion for the other side of the story--so and replied to his post on page 7 at post 562096.

Again on page 7 at post 562115 Doug states a different story. I replied on page 7 at post 562136 to correct the record and add additional information.

[ZL1#61]

So if you would have had a chance to get the car would you have pulled the trigger??

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZL1#61</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if you would have had a chance to get the car would you have pulled the trigger?? </div></div>

I do not know...I never got a price. Guy never called me back. After I looked at the car the first time for three hours on a lift -the car had a massive set of Calvert Racing Cal Tracs on it as well and a healthy 427 in it but the car was badged as a 396.

I do recall that he was asking me why I needed three additional hours to look at the car when I called him back on the phone and he questioned why I felt qualified or needed to make a determination? I recall telling him that I was a blue coat Gold Spinner Judge at Chevy Vettefest and a Member of the SYC Forum here.

This was over 10 years ago now. My how time flies...

[jannes_z-28]

Are we still talking about the April L car or another one, I'm confused here-

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jannes_z-28</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are we still talking about the April L car or another one, I'm confused here- </div></div>

Jan,

Different car..see the first post on page 7 of this thread. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[GrumpysToy]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2014/03/full-5642-9992-black_copo_engine.jpg

Here is the black camaro's engine compartment just before I took it apart to restore it. Does anything in this picture look like he took any ones advice and changed anything to present it as a COPO car???

THIS is a dead horse as far as I am concerned and the last I will say or post about it.....

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GrumpysToy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2014/03/full-5642-9992-black_copo_engine.jpg

Here is the black camaro's engine compartment just before I took it apart to restore it. Does anything in this picture look like he took any ones advice and changed anything to present it as a COPO car???

THIS is a dead horse as far as I am concerned and the last I will say or post about it.....


</div></div>


Dave...Good by me. Why not end this OK? Do you promice this is your last picture?

<span style="font-weight: bold">It is a COPO... Doug has located the original owner cut and dried right?</span>

At this point you posting additional pictures is not helping as a way to continue to attack my reputation and description of this car as I originally inspected it....as clear as day... the under side of the cowl hood is exactly as I said it was - no guts.

[ds1]

So far off subject. You should be embarrassed with your posts. I come here to learn and rely on others knowledge learned by experience. I read THIS thread to learn about the April L car and it has turned into a cat fight of another car. What????

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ds1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So far off subject. You should be embarrassed with your posts. I come here to learn and rely on others knowledge learned by experience. I read THIS thread to learn about the April L car and it has turned into a cat fight of another car. What???? </div></div>

I agree. The same approach was used by the seller of the black car when I located it..&quot;I think it is a COPO but I cannot verify it..all the signs are there&quot;.

Just like the April L car is presented for sale today - except that Doug did his research and the black car turned out to be a COPO after all--and I have acknowledged that in most of my replies.

This thread should move on. Lets see if it does.

[396L35]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ds1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So far off subject. You should be embarrassed with your posts. I come here to learn and rely on others knowledge learned by experience. I read THIS thread to learn about the April L car and it has turned into a cat fight of another car. What???? </div></div>

I agree. The same approach was used by the seller of the black car when I located it..&quot;I think it is a COPO but I cannot verify it..all the signs are there&quot;.

Just like the April L car is presented for sale today - except that Doug did his research and the black car turned out to be a COPO after all--and I have acknowledged that in most of my replies.

This thread should move on. Lets see if it does.

</div></div>

I am glad we are going to move away from all this crap about the black car and talk about the April L car and figure out if it is real.

[Mr. Chevy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Phil you have been trashing the car by saying the rear floors need replacing and then we see what is in fact pretty nice floors. You say the car had quadrajet fuel lines and then we see a single line. You then go on to say it has a big block heater box that looks new or refinished and we are then shown what does not look like an new or refinished box. At this point I don't think anyone is going to believe whatever you say about this car. Can we stick to facts please and not bring some unknown agenda into this ? I'm about to lock this thread. </div></div>

Amen Brother!!

Rich

[Charley Lillard]

Locking this thread. A new thread can be started on the orig car in question