Am I missing something?

[ss427copo]

I see this auction on eBay. #331178483254

I read the description and if I understand it correctly, it turns out to be "the original car is gone, the VIN and cowl tag removed and put on a another shell". Is this illegal? Here the ad.

"
1969 Camaro COPO ZL1

This Fathom Green ZL-1 Camaro was 1 of 50 Camaros ordered by the late Fred Gibb in November 1968. Due to the excessive cost of the ZL-1 option, this car was returned to Norwood, OH for redistribution by Joe Pike.

Alan Green Chevrolet, Seattle, WA to delivery of the Camaro in the latter part of 1969.

The first owner of this ZL-1 was Dick Tutino then service manager at Alan Green Chevrolet.

Dick mentioned that this ZL-1 ran in the NHRA Super Stock class, sponsored by Alan Green Chevrolet and Boeing Company. The ZL-1 ran a best quarter mile time of 11.08 @127 MPH.

In the late 1970's early 80's the car was mated with another 69 Camaro body.

In 2008 the car was treated to a full restoration and brought back to original Fathom Green exterior with black interior. It is truly in almost perfect condition!

This Fathom Green ZL-1 is 1 of 4 Green Automatics made. There were only 22 Automatic Transmission ZL-1’s made out of the 69 total production.

This 1969 Fathom Green ZL-1 COPO Camaro came from the factory equipped as follows:

VIN# 124379N609965

Originating Dealer: Fred Gibb Chevrolet

Order Number: 222032

Dealer Transfer: Allen Green Chevrolet Seattle, WA

Factory Options:

Ext Color: Fathom Green

Interior Color: Black Standard

Transmission: Turbo 400 Automatic

Wheels: 14 X 7 steel XT wheels

Tires: F70 X 14 Raised White Lettered Tires

This 1969 Camaro was a limited production vehicle, equipped from factory with COPO 9560, a special performance package including an aluminum ZL-1 427-430 HP engine, special ducted hood, transistorized ignition, dual exhaust system, increased cooling capacity, and special front and rear suspension. It was specifically designed for drag racing.

COPO #27 ZL1 was originally built and sent to Fred Gibb Chevrolet. It was then redistibuted through GM and sent to Allen Green Chevy in Seattle WA

Dick Tortino bought and tubbed the car and raced the car and then sold it. The new owner wanted it un tubbed and when he took it to the body shop the improperly cut out the rear sub frame floor. He sued the shop and won the suit.

With the car cut up, he went to a salvage yard bought another 69 shell and disposed the original shell including the Cowl Tag. He kept most all of the components of the car including interior, steering wheel body parts ect and the "original VIN TAG and title he then constructed the new 69 ZL1 and fixed the original VIN TAG to the new shell correctly.

He sold the original ZL1 engine and drivetrain and replaced it with small block and different drive train.

He then raced it until 1981 and sold it to a Chevy dealer in WA. The car was then sold as a drag car and the owner sold the original ZL1 VIN TAG and title to another gentleman that attached it to its current body and completed the car with period correct ZL1 components ie... engine trans rear end interior and exterior. He fully restored the car in it's original color Fathom Green with black interior as it is today.

It has the "Original Factory VIN TAG" from the #27 COPO ZL1 that was produced in 1969 for Fred Gibb Chevrolet and is titled that way.

[Lynn]

Yes it is illegal.

Chuck is a stand up guy and has confessed (btw, 1. I am sure Chuck has tired of explaining this, and 2. I do not admit it, but I MAY have done dumber things than this).

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/306777/1

[ss427copo]

Well, at least he's forthright. That does count to me!
The car certainly looks like it was done correctly, but man, that's too much risk for me.

[ss427copo]

Okay, I just read the link. NOW I know the car. I'm friends with Chuck and just connected the dots......

Chuck is a standup guy.

[Charley Lillard]

I'm impressed with Brighton attempting to sort out what they are selling and disclosing it.

[CanCOPO]

Stand up guy or not I've see "you guys" slaughter rebodies on countless occasions. I'm sure you realize that a definite double standard exists on the forum.

[hep1966]

Depending on who the owner is, things are overlooked. There was a post a while back about a guy getting a photo from the original owner of his factory 427 Camaro. The picture clearly shows 350 emblems on the fender. All questions about it are ignored. No explanation.

[bulletpruf]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hep1966</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Depending on who the owner is, things are overlooked. There was a post a while back about a guy getting a photo from the original owner of his factory 427 Camaro. The picture clearly shows 350 emblems on the fender. All questions about it are ignored. No explanation. </div></div>

Happens all the time; common amongst the street racing crowd. Recently sold a 67 Fairlane that had 289 flags on the fenders. What was under the hood was almost double the displacement of a 289...

[ds1]

My understanding years ago that swapping bodies was not illegal as long as you disclose it. Additionally the Dynacorn bodies are considered and approved by GM as a restoration part. So here is some big fuel for a debate. Just remember there was a time when resources were not out there, so options were few. I hear it all the time when friends are restoring an older maintained car &quot;Why would someone do this to a car&quot; Just consider the options we had for restoration and that restoration and cars were fun and a hobby, not BIG BUSINESS as they are now. Dan

[Jack_Tar]

As long as everything is fully disclosed and someone is not trying to sell a car as something that it is not, all is good. If someone tries to sell a rebody as an all original sheet metal car with the bornwith drive train, the gloves come off.

[Stefano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CanCOPO</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stand up guy or not I've see &quot;you guys&quot; slaughter rebodies on countless occasions. I'm sure you realize that a definite double standard exists on the forum. </div></div>

The reference was to the disclosure by the seller of the car, as to what they have found out about it.

[Stefano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hep1966</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Depending on who the owner is, things are overlooked. There was a post a while back about a guy getting a photo from the original owner of his factory 427 Camaro. The picture clearly shows 350 emblems on the fender. All questions about it are ignored. No explanation. </div></div>

Post the link to the car you are referencing. I can't tell you how many &quot;real&quot; &amp; &quot;Documented&quot; COPOs and Yenkos have been found dressed as Z28s and or small blocks.

[Born30YrsLate]

A recent example is reference the 4900 mile LS6 Chevelle recently discussed...obvious original LS6 car but vintage pics show 396 emblems...owner chose to do some creative advertising to drum-up racing business. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[njsteve]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ds1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My understanding years ago that swapping bodies was not illegal as long as you disclose it. Additionally the Dynacorn bodies are considered and approved by GM as a restoration part. Dan </div></div>

As for the first sentence: Not to rehash, but you are quite incorrect from a criminal law standpoint.

As for the second sentence: just because GM declares it a replacement part, that doesn't over-rule 100 years of motor vehicle laws. Regardless of what side of the VIN swapping debate you are on, this is the problem with old laws not keeping up with the advance of technology. There needs to be an update of the federal and state laws concerning the issue of replacement bodies.

I'll use an example in the legal field: it is similar to the problem with the old wire tapping laws that were established in the 1920's that were still in effect in the 21st century.

Back in the old days, when the cops wanted to listen in on a land-line telephone conversation, they got their court order from a judge and then literally put a jumper wire (a tap) on a telephone line and listened.

With the advent of the mobile phones in the latter half of the 20th century, the same 1920's legal and technical requirements were still in effect. A bad guy could buy a dozen phones at Walmart and make a single call on each and throw it away. But the existing laws required the cops to follow the original land line method of obtaining a wiretap which took them weeks of paperwork for a phone that they knew was no longer being used. Only after the 9/11 attacks were the laws finally updated to take into account the advance of technology over the ensuing 80 years.

So, back to our previously scheduled program: until SEMA or some other powerful entity takes up the issue and gets a final answer from Congress, it is still illegal. And since the statute of limitations has long since passed on the original race car conversion, there isn't a liability issue there for the original act, but the car is still besmirched and could be subject to seizure by a DMV or law enforcement agency at any time. I wouldn't want to buy a car like that, that has the Sword of Damocles hanging over it.

[hep1966]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/499221/1

[njsteve]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Born30YrsLate</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A recent example is reference the 4900 mile LS6 Chevelle recently discussed...obvious original LS6 car but vintage pics show 396 emblems...owner chose to do some creative advertising to drum-up racing business. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif </div></div>

The original owner of my old 1970 hemi charger did the same thing. He could never get a race with the &quot;hemi&quot; emblems on the fenders so he popped them off soon after delivery and everyone thought is was just another 440 R/T.

[Steve Shauger]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hep1966</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Depending on who the owner is, things are overlooked. There was a post a while back about a guy getting a photo from the original owner of his factory 427 Camaro. The picture clearly shows 350 emblems on the fender. All questions about it are ignored. No explanation. </div></div>

The above is a silly statement. The car was never represented as a factory 427. Take a look at his for sale ad, and read and look at the documents.BTW I've never spoken to the owner of the car but what it was is clear as day and never misrepresented.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/536149/1

[John]

... He clearly states that the 427 motor was installed later.... and he has the original 350 motor.

... Pretty clear to me .

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[Billohio]

I thought the dynacorn bodies had to be inspected to get a vin from the state??

[x77-69z28]

Technically yes. Does anyone do it? No. It is essentially the same as a kit car that needs to be inspected by the state DMV.

[hep1966]

In the thread I linked to, questions were asked and unanswered.

The ad thread is clear.

[69SSZL1]

hep1966, So sorry, and I did not mean to ignore your questions! I had moved on by then with the thread. Most people know Camaros never came with 427 emblems on them anyway, and no SS Camaro ever came with a 427. My signature at the time spelled out the car pretty well, and though I no longer own the car, it is a pretty well known car and had been featured in Hemmings Muscle Machines in 2011.

[ds1]

I knew I would strike a nerve with someone. Good editing of my post. Look at the next post backing what I had to point out. I have had several dealings with my great state of Pennsylvania, the anything for a buck state, over titles and what can and can not be done. They have told people if you change the engine in your car from the factory engine that the car should be turned in as reconstructed. I talked to the head of Glass over the tinted windows we bought for his 55 Chevy at Carlisle that is DOT stamped and was told we could not do it if the car did not come down the assembly line with it. I keep my state inspection license up to date and have different rules to follow than the police do. Recently we went through process of titling a T Bucket project and went through all the paper work and had it all go through with out a problem. Now the car is done it has to be inspected the way it is built. I am not here to get into one of this forums pissing contests, but each state law is different and there are ways people find to get around the law. Misrepresented and fake car owners should be dealt with accordingly. Big business, money and greed cast a dark shadow over the hobby I love so much.

[Lynn]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hep1966</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/499221/1 </div></div>

It is unfortunate that no one replied to your question in that thread. I don't remember seeing it. I assume that every one else felt like the car was fully explained in the for sale section. It was. It left the factory as a 350 SS car. The ZL-1 engine was installed later. There was never an attempt to pass the car off as anything it was not. Definitely not on par with the current discussion of taking a vin from a destroyed ZL-1 body and putting the vin plate on another body.

Apparently, you did not ever see the ad and therefore did not have a chance to connect the dots.

And I have to agree with Charlie about the attempt to disclose on the rebodied ZL-1. Most auction houses DON'T go out of their way to disclose. I was talking to Roy Sinor a few weeks ago about a well known faked car up for auction. Roy asked the auctioneer why he didn't disclose facts about an obviously faked car when he (the auctioneer) KNOWS the car to be a fake. The response:

&quot;Why would I shoot myself in the foot?&quot;

[black69]

back to the original car that started this thread, I have to say, did anyone ever think how hard it would be to insure? If you bought it for say $400K, and insured it for that amount, and had a claim for total loss, they (the insurance company) would have you over a barrel. They could make the case it was a toxic vehicle, and pay you nothing is my guess.

I wonder what MK would say? I just don't think it can be insured with predictable total loss coverage. Big time buyer beware.

[ss427copo]

In my real estate world, we call it &quot;a cloud on the title&quot;. To quote njsteve, &quot;but the car is still besmirched and could be subject to seizure by a DMV or law enforcement agency at any time. I wouldn't want to buy a car like that, that has the Sword of Damocles hanging over it&quot;, I concur 100%.

[njsteve]

Hey, any time I can use two SAT vocabulary words in one paragraph I am doing OK. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif

[bulletpruf]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: njsteve</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ds1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My understanding years ago that swapping bodies was not illegal as long as you disclose it. Additionally the Dynacorn bodies are considered and approved by GM as a restoration part. Dan </div></div>

As for the first sentence: Not to rehash, but you are quite incorrect from a criminal law standpoint.

As for the second sentence: just because GM declares it a replacement part, that doesn't over-rule 100 years of motor vehicle laws. Regardless of what side of the VIN swapping debate you are on, this is the problem with old laws not keeping up with the advance of technology. There needs to be an update of the federal and state laws concerning the issue of replacement bodies.

</div></div>

Agreed. Disclosure is a good thing, but swapping the VIN tags from one body to another like what apparently happened to the car in question is simply illegal.

What you can do in some states - if the VIN needs to be removed from a vehicle to repair it, you can do so, but you need to have someone from the state police there to watch, verify, and fill out some sort of paperwork. I believe this is how one could try to legally take a VIN from an existing vehicle and attach it to a Dynacorn body -- you would have to say that it's necessary as a repair (i.e., the completely rusted 69 T/A in the other thread). With the police there to verify and document, this might work. A cleaner way to do this would be to use the firewall from the original car and graft it into the new body, without removing the VIN.

Bottom line - you have to concern yourself with the federal law and state law. And state laws differ from state to state.

My $.02.

Scott

[TechNova]

I've swapped VINs more than once with the DOT inspector watching. He had the rosette rivets locked up and issued them one at a time as he documented the process.
All were late 70's early 80's rusted pickups, 3 times if I remember correctly.
State code now says it is a felony and lists no provisions for an inspector to let you do it.
Just sayin it's not always illegal.