Camaro History On Display Tomorrow Evening

[70 copo]

Arguably one of the most important pieces of Camaro production history (perhaps the most exclusive) will be on display early tomorrow evening in south central Ohio.

If you are near by send me a PM and you can join us for the get together. Pizza is on me. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

For those who can't make it...I will get the pictures up for you guys.

[MailOrderMotion]

I wish I could attend. Looking forward to seeing the pictures and news.

[70 copo]

I get to drive it! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/3gears.gif

[70 copo]

While I await the arrival of the car... here is the 1967 Camaro Pilot Booklet cover page and the build information for VIN #0001 Fisher Body Plate unit 860 computer designated for IBM 360 data testing as &quot;DD01D&quot;.

This is the real deal. #1 build in the Pilot book delivered from Norwood Fisher body to Chevrolet Norwood on 5-21-66. The IBM card was already key punched for September Production on this particular unit.

The coach for the car was built out as unit 860 (which obviously it was not) as a test for the Fisher Body automated systems. (IBM 360 computer)

Photos of the car to follow shortly. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[enio45]

that is real cool......gezzz, I thought all the cars got &quot;show paint&quot; :-)

[ZLP955]

What was the &quot;110 Volt Wiring&quot; option? Something to do with lighting for an unveiling?

[L72copocamaro]

So it could be plugged into 110 at car shows instead of running on the battery.

[70 copo]

It was actual 110 volt so they could display the car with installed accent lighting.

[70 copo]

The Number one Camaro from the &quot;Number One Team&quot; arrived tonight in a glass trailer. Here are some teasers.

[70 copo]

More...Since the car was a tubbed race car before restoration he took extra pains to acknowledge the car's race history leaving the weld seams on display on the trunk floor.

The guy who had built the car into a racer had the original front sheet metal and the engine. The guy who restored it tracked him down and got the front end back.

The cost of the restoration is estimated at $250K <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif Many-many NOS parts used on this car.

[Geoff Smith]

Nice work Phil....

[ds1]

The car was on Ebay and a no sale at around 35k. I remember thinking that was crazy for a 6 cylinder car. But need that it was number 1.

[Tracker1]

That's incredible. Thank you for posting...any chance at all it will be at MCACN? I would dearly love to see this car up close as it is such a historical piece.

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif

[bwag]

I didn't see the shifter in any photos but the under hood shot looked like it is 3 on the tree, column shift. I remember a few Camaros and Firebirds equipped that way.

[XXXGoldL34M20]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The cost of the restoration is estimated at $250K <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif Many-many NOS parts used on this car. </div></div>

$250K Yikes, is this for real?

[70 copo]

For real...Ownership cost including the restoration cost and a boatload of NOS parts is currently at $250K.

Example: Current owner located the guy who made the car into the bushmaster. The original engine and the front sheet metal are in the guy's barn. Grille is broken but the rest is otherwise complete. Owner of the car had to buy the entire contents of the barn from the now very old race car guy just to get the front sheet metal...guy who had it was crazy and would not separate anything so he had to buy it all.

This was the Bushmaster race car.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tracker1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's incredible. Thank you for posting...any chance at all it will be at MCACN? I would dearly love to see this car up close as it is such a historical piece.

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif </div></div>

Yes MCACN is possible...Charley knows about the car. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[70 copo]

Correct..It was/is a pretty basic car..column shift.

[67rs/ss]

Here is a post about this car in 2009.
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=155777

[Charley Lillard]

When he bought the front sheetmetal were they the orig fenders and that is why no Camaro emblem ?

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When he bought the front sheetmetal were they the orig fenders and that is why no Camaro emblem ? </div></div>

Correct. Never drilled. The early Pilots left the factory with no primary name emblems. The build at Norwood was called the &quot;F car&quot; only at that point.

[6t7 camaro]

It's really cool that it survived and has been so meticulously restored. I too would love to see it MCACN . Is there any ownership history prior to it becoming a drag car? Like did it end up being sold new at a dealership or did a GM exec have it as a demo?

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 6t7 camaro</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's really cool that it survived and has been so meticulously restored. I too would love to see it MCACN . Is there any ownership history prior to it becoming a drag car? Like did it end up being sold new at a dealership or did a GM exec have it as a demo? </div></div>

Owners wife title searched the car back to January 1967. When she started hitting dead ends, they contacted General Motors, and GM told them to contact me.

There is a binder that has information on every owner to date including pictures of cemeteries..yes they went to the places where the previous owner was buried (if dead)

Good guess on the dealer... not a GM exec, but a big shot dealer ended up with the car when it was new.

[Xplantdad]

Neat stuff...I remember the ebay link from when it was for sale....

[70 copo]

The owner of the car is a noted Shelby Cobra aficionado. He is going to get a new glass panel made for the trailer very soon. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/burnout.gif

[Mr70]

Who was the big shot dealer?

[70 copo]

R.T Ayers Chevrolet... Long gone it is a car wash now

[70 copo]

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/oklahoman/obituary.aspx?n=rt-ayers&amp;pid=144347611

[Charley Lillard]

Is there a reason for the lack of a cowl seal ?

[Charley Lillard]

Was that Richard Ellis' trailer ?

[70 copo]

Yes it was...the trailer with the Shelby hi po parts display indoors at MCACN.

[ss427copo]

Wow&quot;..........did I say WOW?
Gorgeous.
(Looks like one of InTech Trailers? They build some bad ass trailers)

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there a reason for the lack of a cowl seal ? </div></div>

That is a good question. I will ask the owner tomorrow. I know that he was still looking for some hard to find NOS parts.

I almost choked when he told me he paid $550 each side for NOS sill plates..and then he showed me one NOS heater hose and said he was looking for the other one, and regretted having to use anything other than NOS on this car -even to get it operable. He has an NOS battery, but it is dry and he is on the fence if he will use it or just display it with the car.

Tomorrow he is meeting with 4 surviving Pilot build guys from Norwood at a private residence to discuss the car and the pilot program. We will be rolling video where we can - to gather what we can for the documentary.

Tuesday the car will be on display for the main active UAW retiree group. They will number about 400 and we will be rolling video there also.

[Charley Lillard]

I think the cowl seal is still available from Chevrolet. I see one on Ebay now new in the box. Makes no sense to me to use NOS parts but not repair the trunk properly.

[bergy]

Gotta have NOS dum-dum too! Just kidding - great piece of history. It's a labor of love for sure.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the cowl seal is still available from Chevrolet. I see one on Ebay now new in the box. Makes no sense to me to use NOS parts but not repair the trunk properly. </div></div>

Owner is the type of guy who insists on NOS where the P/N is the part number on the wrapper as found in the AIM, that is just the way he is.

We spoke at length on the trunk repairs. Undeniably the car took an unprecedented beating across many forums when the car initially appeared on the E-bay auction, and a review of the 22 pages of team Camaro forum replies alone show the animus towards the car because of the extreme restoration needed to save it.

Weld seams visible was an intentional act because the next allegation to be thrown would be the rebody assertion when the car resurfaced as a restoration.

With the way the car was done that allegation is taken off the table from the get go.

Given a review of what was said about the car I agree 100% with the restoration approach taken.

[68l30]

Thanks for posting this Phil. A historic part of Camaro history and thanks to all involved for saving it. Interesting on the trunk floor sections. That is one way to preserve what could also be a special floor pan. It would be nice to see if there are any minute differences from the production 67 panels. I felt the same way about the Firebirds, too bad they all ended up in the dumpster.


BIG

[Charley Lillard]

Just great photo documentation during restoration would prove it's not a rebody.

[COPO CARTEL]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just great photo documentation during restoration would prove it's not a rebody. </div></div>. I agree Great job Phil on the info

[70 copo]

Well the way it is no one will ever claim that there was any trickery employed.

If that makes him happy good for him, besides dressing in the seams could still be done at a later date.

[Material_Boy]

Absolutely amazing car Phil. I have a couple of questions and I am in no way being critical at all. I notice in the engine compartment pic that top screw hose clamps are used on the heater hoses. I think spring clamps were still being used back then and continued to be used thru 1968. Is that the correct location for the fuel filter? Admittedly I am used to seeing Camaro's with V8's rather than inline 6's so that is probably the correct fuel filter since you describe the owner as very exacting. It just looks kind of aftermarket. Another question I have is why didn't the General use a flashier color with the debut of this car? The gold is beautiful but it just doesn't jump out like a red or yellow ETC. I also wonder why they didn't use a 327 rather than the 6 and an automatic transmission rather 3 on the tree? Who was the target audience back in the day when the car debuted? This was GM's 3 year late answer to the Mustang and I just wonder who they were tying to appeal to.
Thanks for posting the pics of this historic piece of history.

Dave

[markjohnson]

I would've thought &quot;re-body&quot; if that roll cage mount plate was missing from the trunk floor. Maybe I'm in the minority but I really enjoy seeing small scars from the life of an old car. Old roll bar mounts, dented floor pan from a driveshaft explosion, trimmed 1/4 panel lips for big slicks, etc. Just like a human body, every scar has a story behind it.

[ds1]

I read all 22 pages on Team Camaro and find it funny that some people are so stuck up that they look past the fact it is still left and that someone took the time to save the car for all to enjoy. I LOVE the welds left in the trunk. They are character marks from the cars past. When we restore a car we usually leave something behind from its past.

[Charley Lillard]

I love the car and the fact that it was saved also. If it were me and I had chosen to take on the task I think I would have tried to duplicate exactly how it left the factory and that would have meant no clues like the trunk floor. Having 250K into it is hard to believe unless the purchase price was a really high amount. Pretty cool piece of history no matter how it is restored.

[Lynn]

I remember when Charley predicted $100k in resto cost.

Be interesting to know how much was purchase and how much was resto.

And I have to agree on the trunk seams. Don't get that at all. Isn't the picture in race trim enough of a tribute to its history? Maybe they ran out of money and couldn't afford a new trunk pan. Perhaps the budget was very &quot;strict&quot; at $250k. I can hear it now: &quot;No, not another dime&quot;.

[Mr70]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What was the &quot;110 Volt Wiring&quot; option? Something to do with lighting for an unveiling?</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It was actual 110 volt so they could display the car with installed accent lighting. </div></div>

Phil
Was the car found with this special 110v wiring still intact on the car after all these years?
If not,was it put back on during resto?...and can you show it to us today &amp; how it was intended to work?

Besides no wording on the front fenders,were there any other characteristics that set it apart from other mass produced '67 camaros?

[ds1]

There is no right or wrong when it comes to restoring a car. It is a persons personal choice. Case in point ZL1 number 1. Porterfield chose to restore the car as a race car, not as it came from the factory. He stated he felt it better to leave it as raced because it was cut up. And at that point he had to choose which incarnation of the car he wanted it to look like. I have choose to restore my car to how the first owner had it with a scattersheild, traction bars, Hurst shfter, and aftermarket tach. I like and respect the history of it. The original engine is long gone and have chose to install a CE block. I have talked to many of the EXPERTS and got their input. I keep going back to this is my HOBBY, but investment potential and high dollar restorations kill the fun for the little guy like me. Just be glad it is still around

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lynn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I remember when Charley predicted $100k in resto cost.

Be interesting to know how much was purchase and how much was resto.

And I have to agree on the trunk seams. Don't get that at all. Isn't the picture in race trim enough of a tribute to its history? Maybe they ran out of money and couldn't afford a new trunk pan. Perhaps the budget was very &quot;strict&quot; at $250k. I can hear it now: &quot;No, not another dime&quot;. </div></div>

Good comments. The preference on the restoration and the detail was driven by the way the hobby seeks to expose fakes, rebody cars and clones.

The owner has no financial constraints when it came to the restoration. &quot;The car as restored pays tribute to its Bushmaster race car heritage&quot;, that is a direct quote from him because I too asked essentially the same kind of question.

He is planning a Major car show/auto museum tour with the car in the not too distant future just to let people see it.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr70</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What was the &quot;110 Volt Wiring&quot; option? Something to do with lighting for an unveiling?</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It was actual 110 volt so they could display the car with installed accent lighting. </div></div>

Phil
Was the car found with this special 110v wiring still intact on the car after all these years?
If not,was it put back on during resto?...and can you show it to us today &amp; how it was intended to work?

Besides no wording on the front fenders,were there any other characteristics that set it apart from other mass produced '67 camaros? </div></div>


Rick,

Wiring was not found in the car. The 110V wiring was installed so the car interior areas trunk and under hood could be illuminated with display lights without draining the battery. This was described as &quot;drive the car up to the display spot and plug it in&quot;.

The pilots were distinguished by strange build configurations, 283 engines, exterior paint delete (build in prime) heavy option content, missing option content too- as the early AIM was used and as the pilots were built the revisions to the AIM began.

For example if a part did not fit the part could be modified to fit and an engineering change submitted to revise the part specification. If you look at the 1967 AIM the initial release was on March 1, 1966. If you look further at the revision record there are quite a few UPC's that were revised in May, June, and July, when the pilots were being built and the production specifications were finalized.

[SS427]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ds1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is no right or wrong when it comes to restoring a car. It is a persons personal choice. Case in point ZL1 number 1. Porterfield chose to restore the car as a race car, not as it came from the factory. He stated he felt it better to leave it as raced because it was cut up. </div></div>

And thank God he did restore it as a race car. Perfect tribute to all that were associated with the car back in the day and in my opinion worth considerably more (and I don't necessarily mean monetarily) as a race car instead of a stock as delivered ZL1.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Material_Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Absolutely amazing car Phil. I have a couple of questions and I am in no way being critical at all. I notice in the engine compartment pic that top screw hose clamps are used on the heater hoses. I think spring clamps were still being used back then and continued to be used thru 1968. Is that the correct location for the fuel filter? Admittedly I am used to seeing Camaro's with V8's rather than inline 6's so that is probably the correct fuel filter since you describe the owner as very exacting. It just looks kind of aftermarket. Another question I have is why didn't the General use a flashier color with the debut of this car? The gold is beautiful but it just doesn't jump out like a red or yellow ETC. I also wonder why they didn't use a 327 rather than the 6 and an automatic transmission rather 3 on the tree? Who was the target audience back in the day when the car debuted? This was GM's 3 year late answer to the Mustang and I just wonder who they were tying to appeal to.
Thanks for posting the pics of this historic piece of history.

Dave </div></div>

Dave,

I will ask some of the pilot guys more specific questions tomorrow on the build configuration. Why Gold was picked?? Who Knows??

Hose clamps and small detail items may be hard to get a read on after close to 50 years. However I will tell you that I recently spoke to the worker who was assigned to pick up miscellaneous hardware items for the plant during the period.

Let me be clear I do not wish to stir up a hornets nest, BUT when a fastener shipment was delayed a Currier was dispatched to pick up enough fasteners from a nearby plant this was the first step. If that failed or if time was needed to cover the trip time of the Currier typically bolts (generally not safety system related) could be and were picked up at local hardware stores in quantity's sufficient to maintain production.

I know this because I recently interviewed a worker whose job it was to do exactly that. We are not talking huge numbers of cars affected but it did happen.

It was not uncommon for boxes of bolts to be flown in at Lunken field from suppliers within the region. Again a different worker had the job of meeting the supply planes at Lunken.

[Charley Lillard]

You posted Pilot car paperwork at the beginning of the thread where it mentions 110 volt wiring etc. Is there something on that paperwork that ties it to this particular car ?

[68l30]

I'm assuming a reference listing the new IBM DD01D to 860 coach/ Fisher number...??

BIG

[Jeff Murphy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS427</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ds1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is no right or wrong when it comes to restoring a car. It is a persons personal choice. Case in point ZL1 number 1. Porterfield chose to restore the car as a race car, not as it came from the factory. He stated he felt it better to leave it as raced because it was cut up. </div></div>

And thank God he did restore it as a race car. Perfect tribute to all that were associated with the car back in the day and in my opinion worth considerably more (and I don't necessarily mean monetarily) as a race car instead of a stock as delivered ZL1. </div></div>

Yes, but then it got updated to modern NHRA cage and other stuff didn't it? Would have tried to put it back to 1969 race car specs, personally.

[68l30]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeff Murphy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS427</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ds1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is no right or wrong when it comes to restoring a car. It is a persons personal choice. Case in point ZL1 number 1. Porterfield chose to restore the car as a race car, not as it came from the factory. He stated he felt it better to leave it as raced because it was cut up. </div></div>

And thank God he did restore it as a race car. Perfect tribute to all that were associated with the car back in the day and in my opinion worth considerably more (and I don't necessarily mean monetarily) as a race car instead of a stock as delivered ZL1. </div></div>

Yes, but then it got updated to modern NHRA cage and other stuff didn't it? Would have tried to put it back to 1969 race car specs, personally.

</div></div>

Now that would have been cool!


BIG

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You posted Pilot car paperwork at the beginning of the thread where it mentions 110 volt wiring etc. Is there something on that paperwork that ties it to this particular car ? </div></div>

Several things line up perfectly:

100001 = vehicle serial number sequence

709 = Standard Gold Bucket Seats.
Z = (A50) Strato Bucket Seats (without headrests).
G-G = Car Color is Granada Gold
G = Interior paint is Gold
Options:
5Y = (A39) Belts All Deluxe

A car matching its option content appears in the pilot book as DD01D

VIN#100001 spent its life in the official geographic area of delivery destination for DD01D and this is verified by a detailed ownership and title search.

The other Gold Pilots:

Car DD8 is Gold/Gold but 350 car.
Car DD10 is Gold Gold 283 car.
Car DD54 is a Gold/Gold L-6 <span style="font-style: italic">and went to New Orleans.</span>
Car DD52 is a Gold/Gold L-6 <span style="font-style: italic">and went to Virginia.</span>
Car DD64 is a Gold/Gold 327 and went to Plant Manager Jack Rhodes.
Car DD65 is a Gold/Gold 327 and went to Flint.
Car DD65 is a Gold/Gold 327 and went to Flint Assembly Research.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 68l30</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm assuming a reference listing the new IBM DD01D to 860 coach/ Fisher number...??

BIG </div></div>

The Coach as the old Fisher guys called it was built out as unit 860 (which obviously it was not) as a test for the Fisher Body automated systems. (IBM 360 computer) The IBM card was already key punched and ready to go, so several of the really base option cars had option content added as write in information for the build.

The Key punchers were typically Women. I interviewed several nice ladies... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif

[70 copo]

<span style="font-weight: bold">Corrected List:</span>

The other Gold Pilots:

Car DD8 is Gold/Gold but 350 car.
Car DD10 is Gold Gold 283 car.
Car DD54 is a Gold/Gold L-6 and went to New Orleans.
Car DD52 is a Gold/Gold L-6 and went to Virginia.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Car DD63 is a Gold/Gold 327 and went to LA Plant Manager Kuyper (Norwood Built car)</span>
Car DD64 is a Gold/Gold 327 and went to NORWOOD Plant Manager Jack Rhodes.
Car DD65 is a Gold/Gold 327 and went to Flint.
Car <span style="font-weight: bold">DD78</span> is a Gold/Gold 327 and went to Flint Assembly Research.

[GaryC]

Was wondering what happened to that Camaro. Glad to see it got what it deserved. Great looking piece of history. I know this isn't car related but being that it was a pilot car reminds me of the very first C5A that was built and tested and when it finally received it's official tail number. 66-8307...was part of the flight line crew on that plane for 5 years and every part had to be built and modified by hand to work on that plane first before it was put into production for the rest of the C5A fleet. Always was fascinated with that aspect of engineering.

[jannes_z-28]

Nice historic Camaro!

About the missing Camaro emblems, wasn't the name &quot;Camaro&quot; a very late decision? Note that the papers never mention Camaro, just F-car.


Jan

[70 copo]

Jan,

That is a good observation. June 29 1966 was the official announcement date. The emblems for the header and the trunk easy to apply later. The fenders not so much.

[iluv69s]

is that 09D cowl date?

[bcmiller]

I would like to see some of the drive train date codes (engine stamp, distributor, etc.) and some of the sheet metal date codes (deck lid, hood, fenders, etc).

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bcmiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like to see some of the drive train date codes (engine stamp, distributor, etc.) and some of the sheet metal date codes (deck lid, hood, fenders, etc). </div></div>

Not Codes in the traditional way that would be useful as the hobby currently defines and uses data analysis. This is a tag off of Pilot car 10....Lots of paper tags color codes and Part numbers all hand written.

[70 copo]

Big day at the UAW Summer Picnic.

I slipped outside to snap a picture. While I was outside right in front of the Camaro the UAW financial Secretary was rear ended hard trying to turn into the hall-- by a lady who might have been distracted. UAW guy is ok. Lady got out of the car limping all shook up (after placing the car in reverse instead of park) and the car took off again this time going after approaching traffic backwards with no driver so now she is limping and chasing it and everybody is steering to avoid a pending secondary collision... Lady's car finally jumped a curb and got hung up in the median.

What a day. Finally got a picture with the guy from the cover of the book...how cool is that?

[6t7 camaro]

It's funny that both the first Camaro and the first Z28 were gold. I guess somebody knew they would eventually be worth their weight in it.

[volspeed1970]

I have a question as to what I am looking at in the picture showing what looks like window tracks. Is this from this coupe? If so what is that silver cylinder for?

[68l30]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: volspeed1970</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a question as to what I am looking at in the picture showing what looks like window tracks. Is this from this coupe? If so what is that silver cylinder for? </div></div>


That's a power top cylinder on a convert.

BIG

[volspeed1970]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 68l30</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: volspeed1970</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a question as to what I am looking at in the picture showing what looks like window tracks. Is this from this coupe? If so what is that silver cylinder for? </div></div>


That's a power top cylinder on a convert.

BIG </div></div>

Okay so that is not from this car then. I am old and have forgotten stuff over the years but that had me stumped. Thank you BIG

[Kurt S]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Material_Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...why didn't the General use a flashier color with the debut of this car? The gold is beautiful but it just doesn't jump out like a red or yellow ETC. I also wonder why they didn't use a 327 rather than the 6 and an automatic transmission rather 3 on the tree? </div></div>
These are pilot builds - they build a mix of powertrains and options.

JohnZ has said this about the color:
All Chevrolet prototype vehicles were painted &quot;Gold&quot; as a quick means of identification.

[Mr70]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">JohnZ has said this about the color:
All Chevrolet prototype vehicles were painted &quot;Gold&quot; as a quick means of identification. </div></div>

I assume he was talking about the 1967 camaro when he said this?...I know of other years chevrolet protoypes that were not gold.

[70 copo]

The majority of the 1967 F pilots are colors other than gold.

[Mark_C]

How did this car get an 09B cowl tag? Did all the pilot cars not have cowl tags when they were originally assembled in May?

[Kurt S]

He was talking prototypes. There's many pics to back this up.
These are pilots - probably not relevant....

[Kurt S]

I take it the decklid is not the original? Early cars didn't have decklid emblems.

[the427king]

The alternate vin was not there when it was on ebay as per the owner or person who listed it . I dont believe it was due to rust but rather a race modification.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark_C</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How did this car get an 09B cowl tag? Did all the pilot cars not have cowl tags when they were originally assembled in May? </div></div>

#1 build in the Pilot book delivered from Norwood Fisher body to Chevrolet Norwood on 5-21-66. IBM card was already key punched for September Production on this particular unit.

The coach for the car was built out as unit 860 (which obviously it was not) as a test for the Fisher Body automated systems. (IBM 360 Model 40 computer)

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I take it the decklid is not the original? Early cars didn't have decklid emblems. </div></div>

According to the owner the decklid is the original.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: the427king</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The alternate vin was not there when it was on ebay as per the owner or person who listed it . I dont believe it was due to rust but rather a race modification. </div></div>

Old discussion on the car from this site:

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&amp;Number=400045

[Mark_C]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The coach for the car was built out as unit 860 (which obviously it was not) as a test for the Fisher Body automated systems. (IBM 360 Model 40 computer)


</div></div>

What does this mean in plain language what were they testing if the tag was made in September? If the car was built without a tag originally, just what was being tested, or was it just post dated to September even though it was stamped in May? I have an image of a May of 66 Camaro tag, body number 46 VIN 13 05B build week. Assuming this tag is also from a pilot car and is real (and it does appear to be) why would this car have a tag attached to it when it was built, and this one has the tag it has? I'm do not doubt that this is a pilot car, but I'm not understanding how the numbers ended up the way they did. What was the process for selling a pilot car, when it had finished its, show, or engineering duties? Did it need to go back to the assembly plant and get reworked to make it legal to sell?

[70 copo]

The purpose of the Pilot program was to functionally test all portions of the assembly process that were new for the new model.

The IBM card was key punched. That was then fed to the IBM 360 Model 40. This generated the downstream data feed to generate the body plate which the hobby calls the trim tag.

[70 copo]

The builds designated as pilots were selected from a batch of already key punched IBM cards intended for regular early September production.

[volspeed1970]

Kurt S asked the exact question I was going to ask. That car didn't have an emblem on the trunk when it was on Ebay so how did the owner install it because there shouldn't be access holes in the bottom of the decklid to install the nuts on a car supposedly built in May. The early August production cars didn't have emblems on the trunk from what I have been told. Maybe Kurt S or others can explain to me if I am right or wrong.

JT

[Mark_C]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The builds designated as pilots were selected from a batch of already key punched IBM cards intended for regular early September production. </div></div>

Again, I'm not quite following this so I apologize as I try to follow the process. GM was building pilot cars in May 0f 66, regular production appears to have started in August as theres some 08A tags,and maybe some others before you get to 09B. How would there be at least 860 cars already que'd up in the order process as ready to build in May, when the car wasn't even announced for till July?

[70 copo]

I have still photography of a gold pilot with a deckled with the emblem installed. While the photography does indicate which goldl L6 it is the location of the photograph by background structures is consistent with the initial destination of DD01D.

More importantly the decklid is as original as the owner could save. The strengthening channels on the trunk side had to be partially replaced because they were cut out to remove weight. The skin and the remaining infrastructure was saved.

The owner states he &quot; spent a fortune&quot; saving every piece of sheetmetal. &quot;Would have been a fraction of the price to replace with nos&quot;

Finally: original trunk lid had holes which were found during the restoration.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark_C</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The builds designated as pilots were selected from a batch of already key punched IBM cards intended for regular early September production. </div></div>

Again, I'm not quite following this so I apologize as I try to follow the process. GM was building pilot cars in May 0f 66, regular production appears to have started in August as theres some 08A tags,and maybe some others before you get to 09B. How would there be at least 860 cars already que'd up in the order process as ready to build in May, when the car wasn't even announced for till July? </div></div>

Validation of the planned production process requires data insertion that would exercise and verify that the support systems were &quot;in control&quot;. Meaning that they tested with production data elements that were planned for regular production so IBM cards that were already key punched were selected and used. The system was further validated with manual insertion of additional content to the build. (handwritten content)

[Kurt S]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I take it the decklid is not the original? Early cars didn't have decklid emblems. </div></div>

According to the owner the decklid is the original. </div></div>

Do you have a pic of the bottom side of the decklid?

[Kurt S]

I'm not following on the Fisher body date and number.

Norwood had been in operation for years, the tag system was the same.
I have early tag data from several other plants - I've never seen them make up data to try out the system on new model changeovers.

[PeteLeathersac]

When any early/preproduction cars were later assigned Vins (as William noted in the CRG thread) and this example happened to end up w/ tag # 00001, is it known conclusively yes/no if hidden Vins were added then too?
As understood, this 00001 car when found was missing original metal where the hiddens would've been but it's hard not to wonder whether any were ever really added in the first place...someone would need to have been following the tag installer around w/ a gang stamp and digit kit also who spent the time removing obstructions for access to the areas to be stamped?
What of other existing early cars and any hiddens also the found original engine for this one, original Vin stamping or no?
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif
~ Pete

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I take it the decklid is not the original? Early cars didn't have decklid emblems. </div></div>

According to the owner the decklid is the original. </div></div>

Do you have a pic of the bottom side of the decklid? </div></div>

You want the pictures from where it was under restoration of after completion...after the pilot guys signed it? It was/is an early lid for sure...

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not following on the Fisher body date and number.

Norwood had been in operation for years, the tag system was the same.
I have early tag data from several other plants - I've never seen them make up data to try out the system on new model changeovers. </div></div>

Kurt,

I really do not know what to add to the discussion at this point on this particular line of questions. I have explained this about 5 times all the same reasoning. The tag system was the same the computer generating it was new.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PeteLeathersac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
When any early/preproduction cars were later assigned Vins (as William noted in the CRG thread) and this example happened to end up w/ tag # 00001, is it known conclusively yes/no if hidden Vins were added then too?
As understood, this 00001 car when found was missing original metal where the hiddens would've been but it's hard not to wonder whether any were ever really added in the first place...someone would need to have been following the tag installer around w/ a gang stamp and digit kit also who spent the time removing obstructions for access to the areas to be stamped?
What of other existing early cars and any hiddens also the found original engine for this one, original Vin stamping or no?

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif
~ Pete
</div></div>

On this car the alternate vin was actually found in four other places.......some were just last five digits. They were easily found when the car was disassembled and dry media blasted, but they weren't in the conventional assembly line places........

[Kurt S]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You want the pictures from where it was under restoration of after completion...after the pilot guys signed it? It was/is an early lid for sure... </div></div>
Either one.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You want the pictures from where it was under restoration of after completion...after the pilot guys signed it? It was/is an early lid for sure... </div></div>
Either one. </div></div>

Glad to assist Owner of the car is leaving for Hawaii.. I have requested the photos as soon as i get them i will post them up.

[bcmiller]

Still looking for date codes from the sheet metal - any YES they should have them. I believe Fisher Body should have date stamped just about everything. Even on a pilot car.

Alternator, distributor, cylinder head, engine block, transmission and rear axle should have date codes too. If not stamped assembly dates, then casting dates. These did not just appear out of thin air.

If you can't get the numbers, let me know the locations this car will be on display in the next year and I can look the car over myself.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bcmiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Still looking for date codes from the sheet metal - any YES they should have them. I believe Fisher Body should have date stamped just about everything. Even on a pilot car.

Alternator, distributor, cylinder head, engine block, transmission and rear axle should have date codes too. If not stamped assembly dates, then casting dates. These did not just appear out of thin air.

If you can't get the numbers, let me know the locations this car will be on display in the next year and I can look the car over myself.
</div></div>

Boy this thread has epic potential for educational purposes moving forward...

[bcmiller]

Just trying to &quot;learn something new&quot;. So are you saying there are no date codes on any of the parts?

[Mark_C]

That's the whole idea of this &quot;hobby&quot; learn something new every day, put the pieces together as to how things were done back in the day.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bcmiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just trying to &quot;learn something new&quot;. So are you saying there are no date codes on any of the parts?



</div></div>

The Body and the sheet metal parts on the car have no date codes as you would expect from the stamping plant. There were tags only Some of the tags were found.

I have pictures on the way to address some of the other questions. In a later post I will be more specific on the description of what was found on the car.

[70 copo]

Here is the car in Detroit for its unveiling. More photos to follow shortly inc, deck lid as found.

[70 copo]

Pictures Right side up this time..(hopefully)

[70 copo]

The trunk lid as found. The race car modifications included removing the reinforcement ribs on the underside which was rebuilt and replaced on the original trunk lid skin.

[70 copo]

More Detail:

[70 copo]

The Car is exactly as I said it was. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/Charley.gif

[bcmiller]

Oh, come on now. Be nice. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bcmiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, come on now. Be nice. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif </div></div>

I am <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[L72copocamaro]

Hopefully this doesn't offend anyone. I'm sure it will, but turrets won't let me stop....is it possible that with no hidden vins that it could be rebodied and only the trunk floor reused as evidence of it's history? That might explain the trunklid.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: L72copocamaro</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hopefully this doesn't offend anyone. I'm sure it will, but turrets won't let me stop....is it possible that with no hidden vins that it could be rebodied and only the trunk floor reused as evidence of it's history? That might explain the trunklid. </div></div>

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/thumbsdown.gif it will only offend you when I have to waste more time posting pictures of the quarters being patched in.

[bcmiller]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The early Pilots left the factory with no primary name emblems. The build at Norwood was called the &quot;F car&quot; only at that point. </div></div>

What did the emblems say then on the header panel and on the deck lid? I am talking about the pics posted that were in the original ebay auction that were supposed to be of this car when new. They clearly show emblems in those two locations.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bcmiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The early Pilots left the factory with no primary name emblems. The build at Norwood was called the &quot;F car&quot; only at that point. </div></div>

What did the emblems say then on the header panel and on the deck lid? I am talking about the pics posted that were in the original ebay auction that were supposed to be of this car when new. They clearly show emblems in those two locations. </div></div>

Please post the pics you are making reference to so can elaborate...I want to be sure we are discussing the same images.

[FESTIVAL78]

Phil. Any chance you could furnish the Social Security numbers of the older fellows in the parking lot? I'd like to quickly make sure they are who you say they are.
Please thank the owner for spending a 1/4 of a million dollars for our collective hobbie. I honestly appreciate the car being saved in such a well executed way.
I'd like to thank you personally for the thousand + hours you have spent researching the factory the proper and correct was and then putting it to ink for all posterity

Tom McGinnity

[bcmiller]

You included one above. But here are the two pics.

[427TJ]

Leave this poor car alone! It's cool that someone found it and restored it as best as he thought necessary. If it was &quot;fake&quot; then the sniffers would expose it as such. If you had a financial interest in the car, as in buying it, then yeah, some kit-picking would be in order. This car is an interesting part of Camaro--and automotive--history. Relax and appreciate it for what it is.

The Internet is ruining the car &quot;hobby.&quot;

[Steve Shauger]

This car is historically significant and I appreciate that it's being discussed. I sense this thread is starting to get personal, so lets keep it on topic and informative.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bcmiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The early Pilots left the factory with no primary name emblems. The build at Norwood was called the &quot;F car&quot; only at that point. </div></div>

What did the emblems say then on the header panel and on the deck lid? I am talking about the pics posted that were in the original ebay auction that were supposed to be of this car when new. They clearly show emblems in those two locations. </div></div>

I addressed this point a ways back in the thread:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jan,

That is a good observation. June 29 1966 was the official announcement date. The emblems for the header and the trunk easy to apply later. The fenders not so much. </div></div>


Now to expand on what I think the question is (Panther or Camaro?) I just watched the converted video of the pilots on display - and the header and the lid are both &quot;Chevrolet and camaro&quot; as you would expect for production.

[1967Z28]

Very neat, historical car. I believe it is what you say it is. I'm happy someone stepped up and restored it.
It certainly deserved it. I would not have left the weld seams like that but I respect the owners' right to
restore it as he saw fit. I have had to wrestle with certain decisions in the restoration of my own car.

[the427king]

Here is a pic of a 67 camaro trunk gutter[quarter]I owned Date code is last week June 66 [30th week]. Trim tag was a 08D and the vin and body number were around 30 and 80..... trunk lid and other sheetmetal was dated as well. Car was a gold/gold 3 speed on tree, 6 cyl

[67rs/ss]

I think it's great the car was restored as the owner wanted. Look at the re-bodied super cars and pace cars. They caused a lot of debate the way they were done. I have no problem with the way this car was restored, just never thought about it being restored this way.
I have 2 questions.
Was the front subframe replace to the correct early version?
Should the rear light housing be black? In the early promo pics they look to be not painted.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1967Z28</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very neat, historical car. I believe it is what you say it is. I'm happy someone stepped up and restored it.
It certainly deserved it. I would not have left the weld seams like that but I respect the owners' right to
restore it as he saw fit. I have had to wrestle with certain decisions in the restoration of my own car. </div></div>

The decision to do the restoration as was done was by intent in anticipation of all the howls of &quot;rebody&quot; that were sure to arise upon completion.

2200 photographs were taken during the restoration.


<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif I appreciate your positive commentary and your ability to rise above the noise.

[black69]

what I think is cool, is the back of the raw rough trunk lid, it looks like they had some custom work done to get access to the emblem pins. There is just enough material left in those pictures as a clue (curved around the pins, not straight like the restored pic), that shows this car was unique, as if done by hand so you could put nuts on). I almost feel like they had to make the emblems work on a decklid that never had the cutouts for the emblems in the superstructure, because it was a pilot. But all that pilot info maybe was lost when they cutout the superstructure to make it a drag car. Very cool!

Love this car!

[C1SS396]

I like it as raced <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For real...Ownership cost including the restoration cost and a boatload of NOS parts is currently at $250K.

Example: Current owner located the guy who made the car into the bushmaster. The original engine and the front sheet metal are in the guy's barn. Grille is broken but the rest is otherwise complete. Owner of the car had to buy the entire contents of the barn from the now very old race car guy just to get the front sheet metal...guy who had it was crazy and would not separate anything so he had to buy it all.

This was the Bushmaster race car. </div></div>

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C1SS396</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like it as raced. </div></div> [/quote]

Would have been far cheaper to restore as a nostalgia race car for sure! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[L72copocamaro]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: L72copocamaro</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hopefully this doesn't offend anyone. I'm sure it will, but turrets won't let me stop....is it possible that with no hidden vins that it could be rebodied and only the trunk floor reused as evidence of it's history? That might explain the trunklid. </div></div>

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/thumbsdown.gif it will only offend you when I have to waste more time posting pictures of the quarters being patched in. </div></div>

Post away. They can't be any worse in comparison to the trunk lid photos.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: L72copocamaro</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: L72copocamaro</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hopefully this doesn't offend anyone. I'm sure it will, but turrets won't let me stop....is it possible that with no hidden vins that it could be rebodied and only the trunk floor reused as evidence of it's history? That might explain the trunklid. </div></div>

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/thumbsdown.gif it will only offend you when I have to waste more time posting pictures of the quarters being patched in. </div></div>

Post away. They can't be any worse in comparison to the trunk lid photos. </div></div>

Quarters were rebuilt and patched in. Trunk lid was restored using the original skin.

You know perhaps you can explain something to me... Being serious and not sarcastic:

With all the criticism and banter that goes on pertaining to a so called rebody restoration....when somebody actually goes all out to do the restoration in a way that saves literally everything that can be saved as accomplished with pilot #1 seemingly this is exactly what the hobby would applaud and support right??

Yet You seem critical...tell me why--I am curious as to the rationale.

[Kurt S]

I am the person the prior owner of the car first contacted when he realized he had #1. I don't question the car - it's real. I'd suggest posting some in-process pics of the original fenders and quarters to allay the naysayers.
I highly suspect this car got a much better resto than the #1 and #2 Firebirds got.

Tag - no, you never mentioned it was a new computer system. It's original, but strange.
Decklid - that's actually the 2nd version of the lid. The first version has no access holes (what were they thinking?) and is only on very early cars. Looks like the original was cut as black69 noted, but there wasn't much to go on.
Sheetmetal - not surprising they were tagged and not stamped. Bet some were stamped (because they are part of the die design), but many stamps are hidden and hard to find.
Block should be stamped.

Posts like Tom's aren't helpful to the conversation, IMO.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am the person the prior owner of the car first contacted when he realized he had #1. I don't question the car - it's real. I'd suggest posting some in-process pics of the original fenders and quarters to allay the naysayers.
I highly suspect this car got a much better resto than the #1 and #2 Firebirds got.

Tag - no, you never mentioned it was a new computer system. It's original, but strange.
Decklid - that's actually the 2nd version of the lid. The first version has no access holes (what were they thinking?) and is only on very early cars. Looks like the original was cut as black69 noted, but there wasn't much to go on.
Sheetmetal - not surprising they were tagged and not stamped. Bet some were stamped (because they are part of the die design), but many stamps are hidden and hard to find.
Block should be stamped.

Posts like Tom's aren't helpful to the conversation, IMO. </div></div>

Looks like the thread has been educational to a degree then...also nice to see that we seem to agree that the #1 car has been found and has had a proper restoration. Excellent.

[iluv69s]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am the person the prior owner of the car first contacted when he realized he had #1. I don't question the car - it's real.
</div></div>


enough said..thanks Kurt

[iluv69s]

So,I am here at my office discussing this car and thread with my Dad and he mentioned a very interesting memory from back then. The story goes like this.

My Pop and our family was visiting with my Godfather (must have been in 1966). I was born 1962. Then my godfather, who was some kind of a manager type at GM, told my Dad about the all new car Chevy was coming out with for the 67 model year. Then he came out of his bedroom and showed my Dad an IBM type printout (with the holes on both side). He said it was Chevrolet's list of 'possible names for thier new car soon to be released&quot;. My Dad remembers very clearly this conversation because he says that my Godfather was very in favor of the name &quot;carrera&quot; which was on the list.. (not sure on the spelling). This is because my Godfather's last name was Carriero.

Last we heard from my Godfather was about 1985? when he gave a reference for my younger 18 yr old brother to get a job at the Fisher plant in Trenton. NJ..At the time my godfather was plant manager at a GM plant in Buffalo NY.. (not sure which). And beleive it or not, lil bro is going to retire from GM this September...4 GM plants and 30 years later !!


I'd sure like to see that list now !! I am going to try and see if he is still around.. maybe there are some more memories that he could share.

BTW....Awesome car !!! Thanks for saving and sharing history !!!!!

[427TJ]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

With all the criticism and banter that goes on pertaining to a so called rebody restoration....when somebody actually goes all out to do the restoration in a way that saves literally everything that can be saved as accomplished with pilot #1 seemingly this is exactly what the hobby would applaud and support right??

Yet You seem critical...tell me why--I am curious as to the rationale. </div></div>

Because the Internet makes it easy to nit-pick and criticize. It empowers otherwise invisible people (yes, me too) to become visible by sounding educated and informed on a given subject, often while actually being not at all educated and informed on a given subject. People complain that the world has too many lawyers. Well, it seems many of those 'lawyers' exist on car forums for the sole purpose of making themselves visible through endless nit-picking and critique.

If one of the &quot;big gorillas&quot; owned this car--and explained it as it has been explained here--the glowing praise and adulation would be nauseating.

[Mark_C]

I don't think anyone is outright critisizing to car, or the restoration directly, its just an attempt to find out how it was originally made, how much of it was original when the previous, or current owner got it and where it is now. It's only when people step in and either try and deflect the question, or feel the need to stick up for someone else that things start to turn awkward. Lets just stick to asking and answering questions to the best of our ability and eventually everyone will learn something. If we start bickering over that that and the other thing the opportunity to learn something about this car, and the other pilots will be lost.

This car is unique, and beyond being a hand built pre production car it has several oddities about it. I don't think anyone is questioning the realness of the car, we just want to know how it got to where it is today, either now, or back in 1967.

For example the car has an 09B dated cowl tag (ok its been explained it was pulled from a body scheduled for september build), other very low VIN cars have way earlier tags including at least 1 that has an 05B dated tag which line up with the actual dates the pilots were assembled.

This car has a later version trunk lid on it now as the very early cars don't have the holes for the emblems, and it looks like the original substructure in the original pictures may have been hole sawed (later?) to add the deck lid emblems. Because this car was originally wired for 110V power, maybe it had to be returned to Norwood in September(?) to get that wiring removed, maybe it got a new trunklid at that time with the emblem holes at that time. Who knows.

You can't exactly go looking for NOS parts for a pre production car, maybe they are the same, maybe they are not, so saving as much as possible from whatever he had should be admired. Some people don't like seeing welds in the trunk or floor, well when they buy it they can replace the floor pan, it doesn't bother me that much, but then I wouldn't have had the cash to do it anyways.

In the words of the late Rodney King &quot;Can't we all just get along&quot; at least for a while. Ask your questions, give an answer if you know it and we'll all learn something.

[Mr70]

Was this car always known as the first 1967 camaro protoype with it's owners throughout it's life?
...or was it just recently realized?

If the latter,when &amp; who?

[GaryC]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paceme</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This car is historically significant and I appreciate that it's being discussed. I sense this thread is starting to get personal, so lets keep it on topic and informative. </div></div>

X2. Way toooo many extremist nitpicking at everything these days until it turns into a big damn highway or my way fight. Can't we all just enjoy what is left in our life whether it's restored or not? Geeze.

[resto4u]

It is a pilot car, not a prototype.

[L72copocamaro]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Yet You seem critical...tell me why--I am curious as to the rationale. </div></div>

It's my nature to be skeptical until presented with the facts. Don't get me wrong, I think the car is real. I'm not questioning that at all. I just wonder how much of it is real. The reason given for saving the original trunk floor sounds unrealistic and the trunk lid photos that you posted do not help your position in my opinion. The car looks fantastic; kudos to the owner for getting it done, especially at that cost. But if you're going to put it out there and pump it up with originality, yet not show your work, you need to be prepared for the questions.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr70</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was this car always known as the first 1967 camaro protoype with it's owners throughout it's life?
...or was it just recently realized?

If the latter,when &amp; who? </div></div>

Rick,

The car's VIN was ignored until right around the time the car was placed on E-Bay as a race car when that owner fell on hard times and had to sell.

The issue that had clouded the car's complete legitimacy is/was the current internet based working understanding of production sequencing and the application of that theorem to the manufacture of the experimental pilot cars.

For example:

In 2009 when the car was found the following information was posted in the original thread here in this site:

__________________________________________________ _______________________________________________

67L78conv
enthusiast
Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 310
Loc: NJ USA
09B is actually OK for the early &quot;Pilot&quot; cars that have very very low VINs. Have no idea why but there are several documented pilot cars that have low numbers but the tags are dated 09B with a body number that is far to low for an 09B. For the cars that are known the body number used here along with the date lines up very well. Regular production cars had normal dated tags and what not. Is this car a &quot;Pilot&quot; car? Hard to say for sure with the current information I have but does look pretty good so far.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________________________


The information posted by blogger 67L78Conv is correct - however the continued attempt by a few here to attach a later data based production logic to the build of this car cast a cloud over the car as various individuals attempted to purchase the car at a fire sale price -- while casting disparaging remarks in order to leverage the community in one way or the other.

This is the dark side of social media...but it is what it is. The vast majority of the bad was over at the Team Camaro forum.

The focal point of the fork in the discussion is Pilot car #10. Pilot car 10 is also body 10. Pilot car #10 also has misaligned hidden VIN's stamped into the body and obviously stamped by hand. Notable about the pilot book information on this specific car is the fact that its build information has no hand written changes incorporated into it's build specification and has option content that could have caused GM to make a specific IBM card for it (in May 1966) triggering the 05-B date on the Body plate and a sequence consistent with the Fisher DD10D designation.

With the knowledge of this tag, its Vin and Production order and Date assigned, it would be therefore logical for the research group to weight the data there consistent with a &quot;logical design&quot; of the entire program and thus question the validity of the body plate on VIN#10001 as Kurt did in 2009:

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________

Kurt S
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 08/01/00
Posts: 1600
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI

I was contacted when this car was originally found.
The cowl tag is out of sequence for the car. There's one other early 67 car like this.
A guess would be they didn't have cowl tags originally and they retrofitted them.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________________

This is as far as I go with this because to go farther opens up a litany of historical disputes that all have origins based in social media conflict where the people on forums are in disagreement on a variety of technical issues.

On one side there is the data and the assumptions based upon that data.

On the other side is the GM documents the surviving cars and the workers who built them.

I was getting ready to reveal this car right over at the Camaro Research Group Site. However several days before I announce the reveal there-- I was banned from that site, consequently I contacted Charley and got advance permission to do the reveal here on Yenko.net

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: L72copocamaro</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Yet You seem critical...tell me why--I am curious as to the rationale. </div></div>

It's my nature to be skeptical until presented with the facts. Don't get me wrong, I think the car is real. I'm not questioning that at all. I just wonder how much of it is real. The reason given for saving the original trunk floor sounds unrealistic and the trunk lid photos that you posted do not help your position in my opinion. The car looks fantastic; kudos to the owner for getting it done, especially at that cost. But if you're going to put it out there and pump it up with originality, yet not show your work, you need to be prepared for the questions. </div></div>

No problem at all... However I am not able to spend vast amounts of time posting Photos. As I said earlier the car was the subject of 2200 individual restoration photographs.

These photographs will be incorporated into planned a rolling exhibit on the car currently scheduled for next year. My recommendation would be to go and see the car while on tour and view the photographs at that time.

[L72copocamaro]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
These photographs will be incorporated into planned a rolling exhibit on the car currently scheduled for next year. My recommendation would be to go and see the car while on tour and view the photographs at that time. </div></div>

Will you be posting a tour schedule?

[70 copo]

Yes

[70 copo]

I am pleased to announce that 1967 Camaro VIN 123377N100001 will go on public display at MCACN 2014. The owner has had a mini documentary produced to tell the story of the first production Camaro built.

The documents, the photos,the extensive history and research on this car will be presented as part of the documentary which will be looped on a big screen next to the car.

[Tracker1]

EXCELLENT!!

[70 copo]

Those of you attending MCACN this year will have an enormous number of really great cars to look over and your time will be at a premium...so many really great cars and so little time! The owner of N100001 wanted to be as transparent as possible about the great story of this car and has created a website to tell the basic story of the first Camaro built and has authorized the site roll out right here on Yenko.net

The film documentary is almost ready also-so when you stop by to see the car be sure to check it out too on the TV located by the display.


http://www.pilotcarregistry.com/

[70 copo]

It just occurred to me that some of you reading about N100001 may think it strange that the Retirees of UAW 674 use the union hall of Local 647 for the summer picnic...due to the number of retirees from Norwood that are still active the 674 hall on Symmes Rd in Fairfield just is not big enough so 647's hall is rented and that is where the Gold gem was displayed. These guys built our Impalas, Camaros and Firebirds. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[bashton]

<span style="font-weight: bold">This is going to be an awesome display, with some incredibly significant display properties along with N100001 and some of the folks that were there when it actually rolled off the line. This is an excellent opportunity to see how it really was &quot;back in the day&quot; and hear from those who were there making history.

Thanks go out to COPO70 and all of the <span style="font-style: italic">Norwood Ambassadors </span>that will be joining us at MCACN, November 22-23.

Bashton
MCACN Managing Member</span>

[70 copo]

The owner Of Camaro #1 is at it again... He just purchased PILOT #10...this is notably the first Pilot convertible located over 32 years ago now...also congrats to Rich Fields of the CRG who was interviewed for the article.

Here: http://triblive.com/mobile/7261637-96/car-camaro-pilot

Be sure to click on the gallery for more photos. This car is a book end for #1 and makes complete sense to acquire.

[Day2_69Z]

A complete restoration ahead for this pilot car is an Understatement.
I saw this 67 on the trailer at our
Norwin Cruise a year and 1/2 ago,,
it was a sight for curious eyes and inquiring minds.
Low Vin, Low Body #'s and needing one of everything, Two of most and three of any thing else. Solid Shell, partial interior with power windows.
I didn't see an engine or trans in it or a front clip.....327/210 power glide I think. Good Luck to the new owner/resto shop and congrats to the longtime owner in placing it with the right people......It's a really cool piece of history <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif

[70 copo]

Corey says he looking forward to the restoration of Pilot car #10. For anyone who may have not made it to MCACN..here is #1 as displayed and with the Norwood Ambassadors <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[Car55_History]

As a native of Cincinnati and touring the Norwood Assembly plant in May 1966, I was very excited to become a part of this history of uncovering this #10 pilot car and documenting the car to help bring the car and its many parts into the &quot;light&quot;. By a remote chance from a &quot;69 Camaro Z28 owner at a car show who referred me to the owner, the timing was just perfect in finding this car which had been sitting on jack stands for 32 years. Along with the Norwood Plant History from Phil Borris efforts to write and publish his fantastic book &quot;Echoes of Norwood&quot; covering the pilot car history brought a greater dimension to what I had found. My goal was to have this car saved and I believe Corey and his son will be up to making this a fine restoration to preserve a valuable part of our automotive history for future generations to enjoy. I look forward to helping them do further parts research and to help them complete the restoration.

Jay Stokes

[70 copo]

Jay,

Thanks for the support. The history on pilot production is being revealed in remarkable clarity.. If you have not had an opportunity check out Lawson's site at http://www.pilotcarregistry.com/

It now contains data on each car. Just click on the main tabs and the sub tabs. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[markjohnson]

Here's another early (8D) Camaro that just popped up on the 'Bay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Camaro...=US_Cars_Trucks (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Camaro-HARDTOP-1967-chevy-camaro-project-vintage-hotrod-67-chevrolet-ss-sbc-bbc-/321616945639?forcerrptr=true&amp;hash=item4ae1dd21e7&amp;i tem=321616945639&amp;pt=US_Cars_Trucks)

[70 copo]

Fisher #2556 VIN 123377N102435 <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

Early regular production... looks like it was parked sometime during the pro street craze.

[70 copo]

First MCACN now fox news:

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2015/02/2...intcmp=features (http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2015/02/25/first-camaro-ever-built-restored-headed-to-2015-carlisle-gm-nationals/?intcmp=features)

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: L72copocamaro</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
These photographs will be incorporated into planned a rolling exhibit on the car currently scheduled for next year. My recommendation would be to go and see the car while on tour and view the photographs at that time. </div></div>

Will you be posting a tour schedule? </div></div>


2015 dates to see N100001

April 30th Scottsdale AZ at the Barrett-Jackson display showroom. Open to the public.

May 16th at the Detroit Belle Isle Grand Prix circuit. 2016 Camaro reveal event. Closed event

June 26, 27, 28, at Solid Lifter Showroom Carlisle All GM nationals. Open to the public

[70 copo]

Getting questions as to the April 30th display in Scottsdale AZ.

This is a very special day as the car will be on display and in addition a very special guest will join us.

Scottsdale Resident Herb Leitz the Plant Manager of Chevrolet Norwood Final Assembly will be there to say &quot;Hi&quot; and talk about the Norwood plant and its operations.

Herb was the Deputy Plant Manager under Jack Rhodes from 1967 through early 1969 and then succeeded Mr. Rhodes as the full plant manager through the end of the 1971 build out.

The Herb Leitz &quot;reunion&quot; will be hosted at the Barrett-Jackson showroom in Scottsdale and Herb will be there most of the day to meet and greet Camaro and Firebird owners. Bring your car and a sharpie marker - Herb will be happy to sign and autograph or your trunk lid if you want him to.

There will also be copies of the Team #1 Norwood employee newspaper front page from 1970 that Herb will also autograph if you want a copy.

Several artifacts will be on display including the ultra cool &quot;Norwood production gang Wire Tree&quot; which was a gift to Herb While at Norwood. Here is Herb on the right side of the vintage photo accepting the Wire tree in 1970. The second Photo is Herb and his extended family today. He is now 88!

The man in the center of the family photograph is Steve Leitz - Herb's Son. Steve worked the assembly line at Norwood in 1968 while in attending school.

Steve will be there to meet and greet and talk about life on the &quot;long line&quot; while assembling the 1968's.

[70 copo]

Here is one of the event flyers. Herb may stay later than 12:30 we will see how he feels.. media and TV interviews are set during this period of time as well so he will be one busy 88 year old guy. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[Mr70]

Great photos &amp; read.

[Keith Seymore]

I am glad to see Mr Leitz is doing well.

I worked in his organization as a young buck, in a newly created position which demonstrated the now commonplace concept of having assembly plant representation in the engineering community. I found him to be intelligent, fair and an excellent administrator/manager (as you might expect) and I appreciated my time there.

Please give him my best wishes.

K

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/leitz%20note_zps9yqo41hl.jpg

[70 copo]

Keith,

Sad to report that he is not well and has entered pulmonary Hospice... That is why this event was arranged so quickly. This is a 100% mercy mission. We need to do things quickly before things deteriorate.

[70 copo]

Good article in the daily mail on yesterday's Herb Leitz Reunion event with pictures too.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...ction-line.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3063841/First-Chevrolet-Camaro-reunited-man-built-40-years-rolled-production-line.html)

[70 copo]

More and better coverage here! Lots of video.


http://www.12news.com/story/news/local/valley/2015/05/01/camaro-pilot-car/26671197/

[Keith Seymore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keith,

Sad to report that he is not well and has entered pulmonary Hospice... That is why this event was arranged so quickly. This is a 100% mercy mission. We need to do things quickly before things deteriorate. </div></div>

Ouch - I am sorry to hear that bit of news (sorry for the assumption on my part).

Prayers lifted up for Mr Leitz and his family, and glad to see the event was a hit.

K

[70 copo]

Keith,

The show room area was pretty much filled to capacity with well wishers, and car people. We were pleased to have some reasearchers asking good technical questions which Herb seemed to enjoy immensely, however he did not recall any details concerning Yutvio assembly operations in the PI. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/no.gif

[70 copo]

Mary Teresa Barra the Chief Executive Officer of General Motors stopped by to see the car and visit. Great lady.

[L72copocamaro]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mary Teresa Barra the Chief Executive Officer of General Motors stopped by to see the car and visit. Great lady.

</div></div>

Very cool!

[al8apex]

They got my rear side ...

http://www.fox10phoenix.com/story/289469...barrett-jackson (http://www.fox10phoenix.com/story/28946986/2015/04/30/1st-camaro-ever-built-rolls-into-the-valley-at-barrett-jackson)

[70 copo]

Getting Mary Barra in the seat is not an easy task.

To be sure a third party was brought in to examine the car and its research and the claims. I am pleased to say that all the hard work put into the pilot car registry site and the open display of the research is winning critical acclaim nearly everyplace and GM is watching. Several conversations were held concerning the rocky reception the Norwood Research has had with in the internet segment of the hobby - and GM was puzzled as to why?

So much so HOT ROD was asked to look at the evidence in advance of the Camaro SIX unveiling.

http://www.hotrod.com/features/1504-is-this-the-first-camaro-ever-built-ever-we-find-out/

This simple article nails it. However the continued silence from the hobby on this particular car has principles within GM scratching their heads.

For those of you wanting to see the car Brian's event at SLSR is a do not miss event for several reasons. Norwood workers will be there. Chassis side build seminars will be held and a myth shattering unveiling of a holy grail artifact will be held in full public view.

It is gonna be fun.

[Charley Lillard]

I'm not sure why or if GM is scratching their heads. It's a neat car but I personally can think of alot of Camaro's I would rather own. With it's appearance at the Barrett-Jackson showroom it has the feel of a marketing effort. Will we see it at a future Barrett-Jackson auction ?

[70 copo]

Getty images has a great spread on the museum event including additional pictures of Barra as we look on next to the car

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-p...photo/473624256 (http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/general-motors-ceo-maty-barra-looks-at-the-first-camaro-news-photo/473624256)

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not sure why or if GM is scratching their heads. It's a neat car but I personally can think of alot of Camaro's I would rather own. With it's appearance at the Barrett-Jackson showroom it has the feel of a marketing effort. Will we see it at a future Barrett-Jackson auction ? </div></div>


Charley I am glad you asked <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

People at GM watch these forums and they see how we interact. Anyone who has not observed the historic hobby negativity on multiple forums surrounding this specific car is not being honest, and much of what is said (that was negative) was stated due to the absence of detailed and accurate information on the topic of debate--Is this the first Camaro Built? To that end the Pilotcarregistry.com site was created to remedy that absence of information.

What is on display however is on display for all to see is the good and the bad. GM has observed the bad. I was asked point blank by a GM official why I put up with the hobby politics and exactly what motivated me? My reply was that I try to focus on the good and celibate any gain which results in furthering interest in the GM collector car segment. I was positive and criticized no one or any group or any forum. Within 30 Minutes Mrs. Barra and her entourage arrived to greet us. Would the result have been the same if I started to name all the forums where the car was bashed where the research was bashed where credibility was attacked? I was left with the impression that the people at the top of the corporation are sharp and know exactly how to measure the character of an individual.

To that end the resulting positive publicity with GM is a clean win for all of us and it gets no better for me than the Chief Executive Officer of General Motors taking real interest in our cars. It happened - we need to celibate it.

On to the Barrett-Jackson comment-here is the deal - straight up: I asked for a venue to meet with a man with 6 months left to live.

To this end I wanted to make it as eventful for Mr.Leitz as I could and have guests and family there too.

After I made the request to use the Barrett- Jackson Showroom I got exactly what I asked for with Kindness from Craig and Carolyn Jackson. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif

Next I asked Lawson to bring the N100001 car from Kansas to Scottsdale and take a week out of his life -- and out of the goodness of his heart he agreed.

To the extent that the event was promoted in the media that was entirely Barrett-Jackson and I do not blame them one bit-- good for them. Echoes Of Norwood got one mention in one local Phoenix article I sure did not reap any publicity or sales from the event.

Finally there are no plans that I am aware of to sell N100001 at this time or in the foreseeable future. There is however real public interest in this car and in my estimation with the 50th anniversary of the Camaro approaching - I see no signs of the interest in this car nearing a peak.

To this end if this car helps all of us and our hobby segment then I am all in. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[68l30]

Thank you for being &quot;All In &quot; ! Without the hard work and the work of others,parts of history would be lost forever, Timing is everything and without a sieze the moment attitude and this current whirlwind tour, I'm sure this would have never happened. Honestly, with or without the car, I'm glad someone is picking the brains of those that were there...Thanks!

BIG

[TAR6569]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not sure why or if GM is scratching their heads. It's a neat car but I personally can think of alot of Camaro's I would rather own. With it's appearance at the Barrett-Jackson showroom it has the feel of a marketing effort. Will we see it at a future Barrett-Jackson auction ? </div></div>

I'm confused too. When was this car bashed, the research about it bashed or it's credibility attacked? Asking questions about the car and it's history is bashing it? I think it is a way to learn more about it. As a result of some of the questions asked, the website about the car now has some new and interesting information, which people can learn about. Also, how has the hobby been quiet about the car? The car has been displayed at several shows and people have come to see it. I agree with Charley in that it's a 6cyl so how many people are going to be extremely interested in it? I would think only those that are truly interested in the research aspect of the hobby. As a fullsize guy, if someone found a 65 Biscayne four door 6cyl with vin #1, I'd be all over it but most people would pass it by even if it was #1. It's a 6cyl four door so it's a minimal interest vehicle for most people. And I'd be extremely happy to have many questions asked about the car as have been asked about the #1 Camaro. It shows there is an interest in learning more about the process and I enjoy researching that kind of stuff.

If the people at GM are sharp and have been following the discussions about this car as you say, then they will see that no one has set out to diminish this car in any way.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TAR6569</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not sure why or if GM is scratching their heads. It's a neat car but I personally can think of alot of Camaro's I would rather own. With it's appearance at the Barrett-Jackson showroom it has the feel of a marketing effort. Will we see it at a future Barrett-Jackson auction ? </div></div>

I'm confused too. When was this car bashed, the research about it bashed or it's credibility attacked? Asking questions about the car and it's history is bashing it? I think it is a way to learn more about it. As a result of some of the questions asked, the website about the car now has some new and interesting information, which people can learn about. Also, how has the hobby been quiet about the car? The car has been displayed at several shows and people have come to see it. I agree with Charley in that it's a 6cyl so how many people are going to be extremely interested in it? I would think only those that are truly interested in the research aspect of the hobby. As a fullsize guy, if someone found a 65 Biscayne four door 6cyl with vin #1, I'd be all over it but most people would pass it by even if it was #1. It's a 6cyl four door so it's a minimal interest vehicle for most people. And I'd be extremely happy to have many questions asked about the car as have been asked about the #1 Camaro. It shows there is an interest in learning more about the process and I enjoy researching that kind of stuff.

If the people at GM are sharp and have been following the discussions about this car as you say, then they will see that no one has set out to diminish this car in any way. </div></div>

Warren

Chumming the water with bait for the CRG is getting a bit old. You are the same guy that jumped feet first into another thread about this car at team camaro where you misinterpreted data on production I had supplied you and made a claim that my book was wrong which I promptly and completely refuted.
These types of replies where the topic gets obviously partisan need to go to a PM first. When they do not this is how they end up. Messy.

[Charley Lillard]

Play nice everyone.

[iluv69s]

Well said Warren. But if I recall, there was definitely doubt, atleast in the beginning, about the car being the actual first car..don't know if that is negativity??? This is a very skeptical crowd..myself included..for good reason at this point.

But at least in my mind, this is THE first camaro and a neat peice of history..and I am grateful it and it's history have been saved and displayed for the world to appreciate !!

[TAR6569]

My post was not meant to bring the CRG into the discussion.

&quot;Would the result have been the same if I started to name all the forums where the car was bashed where the research was bashed where credibility was attacked?&quot;

You mentioned in your post above, the car/research/credibility being bashed/attacked in other forums and in my opinion, it was not. Just my opinion here from what I observed. I would hope GM does not see it that way and I'm not sure why they would. The discussion pertaining <span style="text-decoration: underline">specifically</span> to questions about the #1 Pilot Camaro has resulted in new and helpful information being posted to the website.

And we cleared up that part about the production figures/book a few months ago. It was the way it was worded that made it a little confusing. As you mentioned, &quot;we were both correct kind of...&quot; I'm good on that front.

[TAR6569]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iluv69s</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well said Warren. But if I recall, there was definitely doubt, atleast in the beginning, about the car being the actual first car..don't know if that is negativity??? This is a very skeptical crowd..myself included..for good reason at this point.

But at least in my mind, this is THE first camaro and a neat peice of history..and I am grateful it and it's history have been saved and displayed for the world to appreciate !! </div></div>

Thanks! Yeah, I remember people were wondering if it was the first built when it popped up on ebay and was subsequently bought to be restored. It is/was definitely a legit question. It's the FIRST Camaro by vin so naturally there are going be lots of questions (and a skeptical crowd). But that's what this hobby is all about. You ask the questions, they get researched and the results/answers get shared with the hobby so everyone learns something new. That's why I started a fullsize Chevy website. I love answering research questions about the fullsize cars. There is no stupid question in my book. And actually, I do get questions in a skeptical sense from people wondering if certain claims someone is making (about a fullsize car) are indeed true. I don't always have the answers but try my best to research the question for an answer. There is still a lot to be learned about these cars and I'm all for people learning something new. I'm looking forward to what will be discovered in the coming years.

And I agree, it's a 67 Camaro with vin #1! I'm very happy it was restored. I love the low vin, early production cars. I have the paperwork to a 67 Caprice from Southgate, 7C100001. Vin #1! The owner of the dealership that got it, knew it was a special car. (I have the notes to him from the zone office) I wish I could find that car and own it!

Warren

[Kurt S]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would the result have been the same if I started to name all the forums where the car was bashed where the research was bashed where credibility was attacked? </div></div>

Warren asked a good question about what you brought up. Instead of answering it, you attack the person. ??

Please post links to &quot;where the car was bashed where the research was bashed where credibility was attacked?&quot;
I've seen some discussions, as others have noted, but no bashing.
Please post these links, we'd all like to see them and evaluate them ourselves.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would the result have been the same if I started to name all the forums where the car was bashed where the research was bashed where credibility was attacked? </div></div>

Warren asked a good question about what you brought up. Instead of answering it, you attack the person. ??

Please post links to &quot;where the car was bashed where the research was bashed where credibility was attacked?&quot;
I've seen some discussions, as others have noted, but no bashing.
Please post these links, we'd all like to see them and evaluate them ourselves. </div></div>

Kurt,

Take this to a PM or an email please....I am confident Charley would not approve of this direction the thread is taking. We were already warned a page back to play nice and I will abide.

I do see the one sided continuing banter-as verification of the issue that I just described.

[Kurt S]

So posting links to other posts about this car would somehow be offensive?
How?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am confident Charley would not approve of this direction the thread is taking. </div></div>
Let's just do it the easy way.
Charley,
Do you have a problem if Phil posts links to other forums?

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So posting links to other posts about this car would somehow be offensive?
How?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am confident Charley would not approve of this direction the thread is taking. </div></div>
Let's just do it the easy way.
Charley,
Do you have a problem if Phil posts links to other forums? </div></div>

For the record I am not in support of the continuation of supporting or continuing a feud as there is no win in it for any one - and it diminishes the premium standing of this forum.

Kurt believe me- we can get this done on PMs or on Email if your motive is to &quot;understand&quot; but I strongly suspect that all you want is conflict.

[Steve Shauger]

This thread has gone on long enough. I see nothing good coming out moving forward, so it is now locked.