"Hog Wild" '69 Z-28 Super Stock Car.

[MailOrderMotion]

Any chance anybody remembers this car ? It was raced from 1970 through the mid '80s by Gary Smiley, a farmer who raised hogs from the Red Oak Iowa area. Based in Division 5, but raced all around the nation. It is known to have run at the Spring Nationals, Winter Nationals, Gator Nationals and at Englishtown when not running in the Midwest. It's home tracks were in the Omaha and Lincoln Nebraska area. The picture with the name is the only shot I have of it actually racing. The back half was just completed and the new shoes hadn't been delivered yet. The second shot was just after pulling it out of 20+ years of storage in 2011. The car was street raced until about 1975 when it became a full time race car. The 302 was replaced by a crate L-88 in the '70s and that's how it was found. It has worn the snorkel hood shown, a GM steel ZL-2 and 2 Glass Moroso hoods, a Zl-2 and a Pro Stock style. This X-77 car is not only a ZL-2, D80 and Tach car, but also Special Paint. It was sold new at Rosen Novak Chevrolet in Omaha Nebraska. I'd love to hear from anyone who remembers it.
Thanks,
Dave

[Salvatore]

A great Div-5 car. Keep digging for stuff.

[Xplantdad]

Get in touch with McInk....on the Class Racer Forum-maybe post there as well...Lots of folks with pics from Division 5!

Click here...he posted in this thread! (http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=30083&page=2)

[MailOrderMotion]

Will do ! Thanks !
Dave

[freddyboy]

Hi Dave: My 69 is almost identical to yours, I had to look twice at the photo.Great photo

[Tracker1]

' - - ' TRIM TAG?

[MailOrderMotion]

That is correct. Also, the car is now Blue, that's why it's a different color than the past pictures.

[Tracker1]

so what was the original color?

[resto4u]

what is the conection with motion performance? That sticker looks like it has been on there for a long time. You should send in your vin# to find out who was the selling dealer.

[MailOrderMotion]

Special Paint Color - I wish I knew. The exact original color is unknown to me and I haven't had time to start digging to figure it out. I do know that it has been confirmed as being painted a Dark Blue, a Dark Green, Black and Medium Blue during it's life. It is also confirmed that it was Not a stripe delete car and the cowl plenum was painted White as it should have been on a White stripe car.

Motion connection - Unfortunately, it's just a sticker. The car was sold new at Rosen Novak Chevrolet in Omaha. That is the only known connection to a Rosen. Sadly, the wrong Rosen, so no unknown find here.

[ds1]

Most likely ordered speed parts from Motion. They advertised in magazines.

[Kurt S]

What's the date on the trim tag? Can't make it out....

[twertsy]

Looks like 03A to me...........

[camaromb]

With that nasty firewall wrinkle on the right side of the trim tag I'm surprised the trim tag is not damaged?

[jannes_z-28]

I did enlarge the trim tag pic. It can't be a 03A car, the BDY number is to high for that. There is some damage to the tag just at the 0XA number, I think it is a 06A.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2014/10/full-1473-17242-x77_nor346182.jpg

The enlargement process moves around the pixels a bit so don't make to much out of it but you clearly see that it can't be a 03A car.

Jan

[MailOrderMotion]

This is a twist I wasn't expecting, but Jan is right. The car's production / ship date according to NCRS is 04-14-69 ( a Monday ). The 03A date seemed a little early to me for a 04B built car, but after discussing it with Mr. Borris who discussed it with some of his Norwood contacts, it seemed reasonable considering everything it took to order, receive, schedule and complete a special paint if that color wasn't already in plant. I never paid any attention to the body number... I thought it was 03A and didn't go any further. The car is honestly a true Z, and it has all of the proper punchings for the ZL-2, D80 and Tach. This thing is hacked to within an inch of it's life and will never be more than a decent day 2 car or bracket bomber. Plus, the owner since 1970 couldn't care less about numbers. Time for some detective work I guess. I'm kind of embarrassed...

[Kurt S]

Sorry, nothing matches up on the tag. I wanted to confirm the data before posting about it.
The orders for that body # weren't in the system yet. It is not only too early, but it's too late. Yup, a contradiction.

[x77-69z28]

Jan, if it was 06A, the trim tag would read X77 D80 for mandatory spoiler equipment. Was the vin posted anywhere? If so I missed it. Could be 05A, but I think my body number is 317xxx
Buddy

[Kurt S]

I was asked about the date and also about my comments.
Date is too early and the body # is too high/late.
They would not have scheduled the car if the paint wasn't available. Not scheduled means the tag wouldn't be stamped (and they wouldn't store the tag for a month). Lots of special paint cars out there and all have typical build dates.
The body # was the order # in 69. The new incoming dealer order #'s weren't that high when the car was built. Hard for a car to have a number NOR346182 that wasn't even issued yet. See Buddy's body # for a comparison.

Sorry, that tag isn't original.

[70 copo]

Is the tag a repop or a swap then...and what is the motivation to do so on this particular car?

It does not look like it is going to be judged at the nationals anytime soon.

[x77-69z28]

I just checked my trim tag, it is 314XXXf. The tag in question is almost 30,000 orders later. It's a mystery I tell you!
Buddy

[Kurt S]

I don't know why.
It's a repro - those #'s should not be on an 03A tag.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know why.
It's a repro - those #'s should not be on an 03A tag. </div></div>

Somebody find the owner of this race car and ask him why he put a reproduction tag on this car...

[70 copo]

In all seriousness do we even know the build date for sure on the TT?

It is likely original BTW

[budnate]

Kurt are you saying the tag is a repop? I thought it was good?

[70 copo]

Ok let's solve this one. You body numbers guys...

We have what looks like an 03-A tag and a body number 346182 which is more like an 06-B or slightly later body number right?

Below is a 1969 NOR Fisher Body IBM Punch card template. All of the build information was punched onto cards just like this by GM employees with the job title &quot;keypuncher&quot;

These cards were later processed in stacks through the IBM model 360 computer which triggered the creation of things like the Body plate which we call the &quot;trim tag&quot;

Key punchers could make mistakes and did.

Now that number that is giving some of you fits... lets just assume the keypuncher hit one wrong key and hit a 3 instead of a 2 and presto... the tag becomes legit and falls right in where it should be as 246182 is right where it should be for 03-A build. Mystery solved.

[MailOrderMotion]

I guess I should check in more often. I have no &quot;story&quot; for why the numbers are as they are. Did somebody miss enter a digit during data entry? Were these things proof read for accuracy ? I don't know. Who knows how this stuff happens, but there has to be some basic human error involved and a reasonable explanation. It's not like these cars haven't seen their fair share of mistakes during production. This car came from the second owner who has owned it since 1970 and he raced it nearly to the grave with zero interest in numbers. The car came out of 25+ years of storage in a farm machine shed under an inch of dust. Do I think it's been screwed with ? No, I don't. Can I explain it ? No I can't. The tag is GM issue and has never been off the car, hell - there is still dum dum in the one rivet. I'm amazed it wasn't shaken out after looking at how bad this body is stressed. Repro ? Jeez, you'd think a little more care would be taken when getting a repro made. Instead of just declaring it fake because it's not normal, how about we try and figure out how a mistake like this could have happened and maybe advance the understanding of this hobby ? I'm not an idiot, and I know you see &quot;Novice&quot; and only a few posts by my name, please look me up I'm member #77, I'm not a newbie, I'm a charter member and I'm hardly naïve enough to try and pass this through this shark tank, especially over this hulk. Had I noticed the body number issue, I sure as hell wouldn't have advertised it here. All I can say is that there has to be a reasonable and logical explanation, so lets put our experience to use and find it. I have no reason to believe it's not legit, but some sort of mistake. This is a $5,000.00 hulk, not a JL-8 car headed to B.J. It's hardly a car worth faking.

[MailOrderMotion]

70COPO - I was typing while you posted and I felt I should leave what I typed as is. Thank You for digging deeper into this, I learned more about the process and I appreciate that. I knew that there had to be a simple and reasonable answer.

[70 copo]

You are welcome. All I did was develop a theory - and then spoke to the guy who ran the data systems and followed up with a key puncher to validate.

[x77-69z28]

If you don't mind, what is the vin? Does it fit with an 03A build or something later? I thought the tag looked good. We will figure it out!
Buddy

[70 copo]

VIN 627007

[Kurt S]

Maybe I shouldn't have called it repro. But again, I can't explain.
The history of the car says it's real, but *none* of the numbers line up. I've seen lots of #'s and these are off.
I'd like to hear / see confirmation of the date on the tag.
Have the partial VIN's on the car been confirmed?

03A is way off for that VIN. Phil, still think they scheduled it a month ahead?
And that new body # would still be off.

[MailOrderMotion]

Phil has the proper VIN and the hiddens have been confirmed. The body tag date is 03A without question. Phil and I have discussed the 04-14 release date vs the 1st week March Fisher date and as always he went the extra mile and found out how it was within reason. If you look at a '69 calendar, 03A is actually the 3rd through the 7th. 04-14 is a Monday and since that is the &quot;Ship&quot; date and not a true production date, the car would have been built the previous week ( 7th thru the 11th ). So that narrows the gap just a bit. To my understanding the Fisher tag dates were generated when the order was accepted, not necessarily when scheduled to be built. If a major component wasn't available, it was set aside until it was and in this case that may have been whatever color paint was not available at that moment. Anyway, Phil knows far more than I ever will, so I'll give him the floor.

[Kurt S]

If the body # was keyed in wrong, did the Norwood guys say how the broadcast sheet would be generated?
How would they pull up the order specs?

[70 copo]

The key punch of the body number was a non integrated portion of the process so the body plate (trim Tag) could have a number wrong and the car's content still got entered correctly on other sections of the key card which are separate. IBM computer created the Broadcast sheet.

Key punch errors are the primary reasons that RPO content was missed at Fisher body.

Case in point; I know of a HO Z/28 built as an RS with all the RS Equipment that had X-77 on the body plate whereas the requirements for an X-33 build up on the body were carried out. I have known the car since a youth and the car has all right equipment for X-33 right down to the wiper motor.

incidentally that car is an 03-B build-pretty close to OP's car in a production time frame.

Same key puncher perhaps?

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

I've only studied the '70 Yenko TT's, but even within the 3 week build date I can tell you that the first 15 bodies have a build date of 06A and the next 20 bodies have a build date of 05D - completely backwards vs conventional thinking! Scheduling issues, typo's, etc... it happens!

[x77-69z28]

Just thinkin out loud. If the number was typed in wrong, would it have been a one shot deal, or would it have been a group of cars? Kurt, have we seen this in any of the other cars in that time frame?

[Tracker1]

BRING IT TO MCACN , put it in the barn finds section and ask the Norwood Ambassadors to crawl over it and help figure out what went on with the tag...

[70 copo]

We can do that!

[camaromb]

The recent Mecum Dallas '69 Yenko that sold is another example of weird build time/vin tag/bdy sequencing. The car is an N615XXX vin with a 219770 BDY # within the Yenko order/03B build. The car was built in April with its original 417BE, PPG glass, 110th day dated booster, etc. I don't know how the vin was assigned within the March built Yenko cars but the car was not built until later in April? I believe the ship date from the NCRS report was the 3rd week of April.

[MailOrderMotion]

I'd be happy to bring detailed photos of the tags and VINs, but the car itself would take up valuable space at the show.

Thanks to everybody who contributed, it is good to hear that there are other oddballs out there. If this discussion proves anything it is that mistakes and anomalies exist throughout these cars.

Going back to the start of this - does anybody have any photos of this car ? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[Kurt S]

There are now three different topics being discussed.

This car:
Looking at the tag, it's amazingly straight for having the firewall behind it twisted.
I don't understand how you are saying this is possible - body # or build date.
The Chevrolet Central Data Systems (basically the Central Office) &quot;tele-processed&quot; the orders to the plant. Orders were tracked by the order #.
When the body came through the wall to the body bank, the clerk would pull up the order via the number on the trim tag (which is the same as the order # in 69) and input the VIN (which had just been assigned). The data from the order was used to generate the Chassis and Body Broadcast Sheets that were printed throughout the plant.
Without the correct order #, the order couldn't be pulled up and the broadcast sheets could not be generated.
http://www.camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtml#chev


Marlin,
That's normal - body # to VIN vary a little. Same with the 69 COPOs.
The build date of this car is a month early and the body # is 50,000 units - months of production - late.

Mark,
Tag and VIN match on that COPO - just looks like it was held (for a repair?) at the plant.

X77,
No. There are no other anomalies like this. 20,000 cars in the database - none have a trim tag a month early nor a body # off like this. That's why the tag caught my eye.

[70 copo]

Kurt,

You forgot me... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[Kurt S]

Sorry, you are part of the 'This car&quot; discussion. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[70 copo]

Kurt,

As you no doubt are are aware I stand ready to assist the CRG in making it's assembly process document the best it can be.

As it is the process as written today is accurate for the assembly operations managed by General Motors Assembly Division (GMAD) but is lacking in it's technical discussion pertaining to the differences where Fisher Body and Chevrolet worked as separate operating divisions at Norwood.

Let me know how I can be of assistance for the betterment of the hobby.

[camaromb]

Kurt,
Yes I understand the Yenko I mentioned has a matching vin # /BDY #. The &quot;Hog Wild&quot; car has a BDY # that does not match the vin # /build date. The Yenko has an actual build date (components/ship date later in April) that does not match the vin/ BDY #. If the Yenko was held for repairs, they repaired/built the entire car later in April.
Mark

[RichSchmidt]

What are the sheet metal dates on the body?

[Kurt S]

Phil,
Feel free to propose edits.

[70 copo]

Sounds good. I have your e mail.

[MailOrderMotion]

Sorry, my computer was in the shop for a few days. When I can, I'll dig her out of the back of the shop and get some more info off this thing. Better photos of the tag, VINs, punchings and sheetmetal dates. Wasn't expecting this left turn in things, so I'm unprepared.

[70 copo]

All you asked for was info on the race car...I feel for you in this instance.

[MailOrderMotion]

I was finally able to get some additional photos of areas that were questioned. Hopefully these will ease some concerns. First was the mention of the crumpled area of the cowl and why wasn't the tag damaged. These show that it may be nothing more than a less than perfect stamping of the panel.

[MailOrderMotion]

Next are the factory holes for the ZL-2 equipment. This stuff probably hit the dumpster pretty quickly.

[MailOrderMotion]

Lastly are the remainders of what were holes for the Muncie Speedometer Cable and the Oil Pressure line. You can still see some of the original hole at the top of the Speedo cable hole and the where the retaining clip attached. The oil line hole isn't easy to verify as no evidence of the original hole remains, however the 2nd owner ( since 1970 ) verifies it was a gauge car. He says why drill a new hole when you can punch out the one already there. Makes sense from a hack job standpoint, but makes it harder to fix. Obviously, this old girl was ridden hard, but doesn't deserve a bad rap.

[resto4u]

If you pull the LF fender off, you will probably see side cowl damage.

[MailOrderMotion]

We replaced the 'glass front with steel and there is no damage whatsoever. No evidence of repairs either.

[BULLITT65]

Could this be the original block:
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=12905.0;topicseen

Now to verify those numbers....

[BULLITT65]

Sounds like we may have a winner!

[tom406]

That would be pretty amazing. What are the odds that the owner of a clapped out race car and the owner of a long mothballed engine would both decide to seek information on the web simultaneously after so many years? I hope it's a match and that this old race car can now have a proper restoration justified.

[MailOrderMotion]

To say I am pretty surprised is an understatement. We do have a match and are working out the final details. I've provided this gentleman with all the proof he desires and he seems satisfied. He didn't have to go to this effort and it impresses me that he did. He could have also really reamed me on the price and isn't. A true car guy who gets it. I truly owe him a huge Thank You ! I've owned the car for about a year now and decided it was time to try and learn some of it's history and that's why I posted it. Better to be lucky than good sometimes I guess.

A full restoration ? Maybe someday. I kinda like the car as a drag car and with an L-88 as it's been since the '70s. I have been collecting the parts in case I decide to but that will be down the road a bit. At MCACN this year I spent some time chatting with Ken Barnhart about his car and it really dawned on me the similarities between the cars. Both were tubbed for S/S at the same time, using the same stuff. His a ZL-1, mine a Z-28. Soon after mine gained an L-88 making things more similar. It was then that the &quot;History&quot; truly sunk in. I will say that the motor and car will never be more than a few yards apart again. Who knows, when I get that 302 in the shop, I might change my mind. Either way, their day will come.

[Fast67VelleN2O]

WOW! Awesome. I love seeing this happen. Now that the original block was found with the assembly stamping, where does that leave the trim tag?

[70 copo]

If I read the Craigs list ad right the block was V0310DZ. Cast C-4-9.

Tag was dated 03-A

[Day2_69Z]

Congrats on the find,
Humm? An L88 in a restored '69 Z/28 1970 era vintage race car with history and provenance is a sight to behold. Along with the original born with 302 dZeeing away on an engine stand a few feet away in the show display is well..........a joy to most, a thrill for many and a history lessen to all.
Come on,,,get that shell on a rotisserie
and get rolling...... I'm a top 5 fan !!!