Trim Tag

[COPO CARTEL]

Guys Dave and I looked at this car last night here is a photo of the trim tag. Look at the spacing of the build month & week. I guess mistakes do happen.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/02/full-2742-21237-img_4147.jpg

[m22mike]

Doug
Tag looks OK, my 05A bdy# is 322423. Do you have any more pictures of the tag ?

Mike

[COPO CARTEL]

That's it Mike. I think it's legit IMO. The spacing was weird on the production date. But human error is possible

[COPO CARTEL]

Good reference for future guys

[x77-69z28]

Tag looks good to me. My 05A X77 nor# is 314xxx. Looks like they made a lot of cars that week!
Buddy

[Keith Seymore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: x77-69z28</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tag looks good to me. My 05A X77 nor# is 314xxx. Looks like they made a lot of cars that week!
Buddy </div></div>

That is a lot of cars.

In fact, I'm not sure it's physically possible.

322616 - 314000 = 8616 units.

CRG lists the Norwood line rate as 57 jobs/hour, for two shifts.

Computing a straight time rate of 57 x 8 x 2 = 912 per day x 5 days = 4560 units

Considering 6 days of 10 hour shifts still falls short at 57 x 10 x 2 = 1140 jobs per day x 6 days = 6840 units.

So it seems something is not adding up.

K

[m22mike]

Don't you need to compare the vin#'s when looking at cars made ? The bdy# in 69 was the actual order # form Chevrolet when the dealer order was entered into the system.

Mike

[bergy]

Yes - VINs - that's my understanding too Mike.

[William]

The body number has nothing to do with production or production scheduling. I have maintained a reverse-engineered production schedule for many years. GM released the first and last VINs built for most months so that's what it's based it on. Van Nuys is somewhat easier to figure as there are some VN BBCs around and they were dated when printed. That date was when final assembly began; the body was already done. The few Norwood BBCs I have seen do not have dates so it's an educated guess. Firebird was mixed in with Camaro production at Norwood starting about the 3rd week of April and that makes it tougher. The overall rate stayed the same but the mix varied.

[Keith Seymore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: William</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The body number has nothing to do with production or production scheduling. </div></div>

Well...it does for the body shop. That's why it exists. I will agree the body shop numbers are only somewhat indirectly linked to final line (general assembly) production and scheduling.

I also agree about Firebird mixing in with Camaro starting in April of 1969, but didn't want to confuse the issue. I wasn't sure if they got their own body sequence number, which would have been directionally incorrect in terms of my calculations above (for example, in the Pontiac Michigan assembly plant there were different body sequences for big car, A body hardtop/coupe and A body convertible - all &quot;Pontiac&quot; nameplated vehicles).

K

[Keith Seymore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m22mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't you need to compare the vin#'s when looking at cars made ? The bdy# in 69 was the actual order # form Chevrolet when the dealer order was entered into the system.

Mike </div></div>

Just to make sure I understand:

When you say the body # was the order # from Chevrolet, do you mean (a) a sequential number assigned to the dealer order, or (b) the actual &quot;form&quot; number?

Most of the Chevrolet dealer order numbers I am familiar with are alpha-numeric.

The order number from my '87 pickup: XA1385
Modern order numbers: 6PUP01, 6PUP02, etc

I've never been able to discern a rhyme or reason to the way the dealer order numbers are configured.

Thanks -

K

[rsinor]

Guys you should not consider the number following the plant location a sequential body number, it is a central office sequencing number or possibly a order receipt number might be a better term. The number identified the car build even before the VIN was assigned. Because of material shortages or constraints the numbers are not sequential with the vin, they were released according to availability of material and build positioning they are not sequential and can very by a significant amount.

[Steve Shauger]

The body # in 69 was the Central Office order confirmation
#. This # was sent to the dealer as confirmation of the order.
It's also on BBC and window sticker.

[Keith Seymore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsinor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys you should not consider the number following the plant location a sequential body number, it is a central office sequencing number or possibly a order receipt number might be a better term. The number identified the car build even before the VIN was assigned. Because of material shortages or constraints the numbers are not sequential with the vin, they were released according to availability of material and build positioning they are not sequential and can very by a significant amount. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paceme</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The body # in 69 was the Central Office order confirmation
#. This # was sent to the dealer as confirmation of the order.
It's also on BBC and window sticker.
</div></div>

Thank you; noted.

For comparison's sake: mid 60's Pontiacs were not that way (hence my confusion). In the Pontiac plant(s) the body number was an actual build sequence number. The numbers were sequential through the body shop but then shuffled out of the body bank based on material availability and/or workload leveling before dropping into general assembly.

Thanks again for the clarification.

K

[rsinor]

Not all Chevy's and all plants are that way either even in 69, some plants used the number in that location some did not.

[Keith Seymore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paceme</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The body # in 69 was the Central Office order confirmation
#. This # was sent to the dealer as confirmation of the order.
It's also on BBC and window sticker.
</div></div>

It's crazy to me when one notes the number of &quot;numbers&quot; that are used to usher a vehicle through the build process. Seems like they could have streamlined this a bit.

The dealer order number drops into the final assembly location and creates a PVI (Primary Vehicle Identifier) or CSN (Carrier Sequence Number).

One of these is used until the vehicle drops into general assembly (or Trim, for non Fisher Body plants) where the GA sequence number (or manifest sequence number) becomes paramount. The GA sequence number then is associated with the VIN and, for engineering vehicles, the engineering vehicle number (ie, &quot;CP5085&quot;, for example).

This &quot;central office order confimation&quot; number that I have just learned about could be added to that list.

It is interesting to note that relative to all those numbers the VIN is the one that is never referred to during the build process. It is of secondary interest, like installing a tune up label or Mulroney window sticker.

K

[PapaSmurf]

Spoken like a TRUE ENGINEER! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif

[camaromb]

Roy,

We do see sequential body/order numbers for grouped dealer orders such as the 1969 Copo Camaros. Dealers such as Yenko, Berger and numerous other dealers had sequential body numbers within each of their order groups. Copo Camaro orders shipped to Canada were also assigned sequential body number groups, not necessarily dealer related.

The body number sequencing in relation to vin number/build order reversed during the 1969 production of Yenko Camaros. The earliest Yenko order of 50 cars ordered in Oct. 68 and built in Jan '69 were built/vin assigned randomly by highest body number first/lowest vin of the group. By late February Yenko production this sequencing was reversed and continued through the further Yenko orders, low body number low vin first and each increasing throughout the order group.

Mark

[m22mike]

In my original post I made the statment <span style="color: #FF6666">&quot;The BDY# in 69&quot;</span> and we were talking about Camaros built at NOR. I have no clue what they did at other plants and years, it wasn't consistant.

Read below, taken from CGR, some of which Steve already mentioned.

1969 Fisher Body Numbers



1969 NOR Cowl Tag





Factory documentation indicates that the <span style="color: #FF6666">1969 system</span> used the central office order confirmation number as the body number and the analysis of vehicle data and documentation confirms this. This is the same number sent to the dealer as the order confirmation, used on body broadcast sheets in the IDENT number field, and that appears on the Window Sticker/Shipper. These numbers were unique for both Norwood (NOR) and Van Nuys (LOS or VN) in 1969 since they were assigned to the plants from a common pool of numbers (for example, 295460 was built at NOR (see the 69 tag picture) and 295461 may have been built at VN).
Orders were not built sequentially, but were scheduled by the assembly plant dependent on build component availability. <span style="color: #FF6666">Orders could be held for several weeks until the required components were available, e.g. 295460 may have been held for a several weeks due to a supply </span><span style="color: #FF6666">issue</span>, where as 295461 may have been added to the build schedule right away. This makes the 1969 body numbers vary relative to the VIN numbers.

Due to the extended 1969 model year, the body numbers were reset in August 1969 to 100000 at Norwood (Van Nuys has ceased Camaro production by that point).

Here is a good explanation of the 67 68 and 69 Camaro BDY#'s. Note that NOR and LOS only shared the same BDY# system in 1969

http://www.camaros.org/bodynumbering.shtml#69

[bergy]

Probably been posted before &amp; not new to the SYC community, but in 1969 the orders were received at Central Office and had to be key punched onto cards that were then fed into the card reader at the computer station. Since many of the larger dealers sent their orders in to Central office in batches, these batches would be key punched together and wind up in order in the same stack of cards that was fed into the computer. The computer feed order of the punch cards resulted in assignment of sequential body numbers. Dealers that placed large stock orders would subsequently &quot;release&quot; smaller batches of the large order for production.
Just as an aside - if you knew the right employee at Central Office, you could get your car &quot;moved up&quot; in production release sequence. In 1975, as a Senior Engineer at Chevrolet R&amp;D, I had my Corvette built &amp; shipped to the dealer so fast that it had to sit on the dealer's lot waiting for the paperwork to catch up to it. That was a GM salary employee order &amp; delivered to the dealer just down the road from the Tech center. Back then, the salary employee discount was a lot better deal then today - 18% off of the base sticker plus 20+% off of options (varied with option). If you didn't mind a few miles on your car, you could have an exec drive it 3,000 miles (company car) and get an additional 10% off (plus another 5% if it was &quot;last round&quot; - end of model year). We could buy a new Corvette every year - balloon finance 100% through GMAC - and sell it after owning it 12 months. Most of the time the out of pocket was $0.00.

[Keith Seymore]

We were able to do that with Suburbans.

I was able to get a 38% discount for 7500 mile / past model year for a couple vehicles in a row in the '97/'98 timeframe.

K