80's factory lightweights?

[old5.0]

Let's say it's 1987, and you head down to the local dealer to order a new Mustang/Camaro/Firebird/Turbo Regal/whatever. Your plan is to go racing, and with that in mind you attempt to order it with the sound deadener, insulation and seam sealer deleted. Is there a legal reason that the factory would have refused this order?

I've been trying to get a definitive answer on this for a couple of years, but nothing 100% concrete. One guy told me he thought there might be some kind of liability under some aspect of the consumer protection laws, but couldn't point out anything specific.

Thoughts? Comments? Blind speculation?

[markjohnson]

In the early '80's, Popular Hot Rodding built an NHRA-legal Super Stock Olds Cutlass from a brand new special order car and if I remember correctly, it may have had some lightweight deletions like that. I wanna say that it may have been called "Project O" or something like that.

[old5.0]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: markjohnson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the early '80's, Popular Hot Rodding built an NHRA-legal Super Stock Olds Cutlass from a brand new special order car and if I remember correctly, it may have had some lightweight deletions like that. I wanna say that it may have been called &quot;Project O&quot; or something like that. </div></div>

I've heard stories about some sort of special lightweight G-body Cutlass back then, but I've never been able to nail down any details. I wonder if they would have come on an MSO or a bill of sale only...

[Late BrakeU2]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: old5.0</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let's say it's 1987, and you head down to the local dealer to order a new Mustang/Camaro/Firebird/Turbo Regal/whatever. Your plan is to go racing, and with that in mind you attempt to order it with the sound deadener, insulation and seam sealer deleted. Is there a legal reason that the factory would have refused this order?

I've been trying to get a definitive answer on this for a couple of years, but nothing 100% concrete. One guy told me he thought there might be some kind of liability under some aspect of the consumer protection laws, but couldn't point out anything specific.

Thoughts? Comments? Blind speculation? </div></div>

Relative to road racing only,specific to factory built cars, the RPO ILE was introduced for fbods in 1988. It was a &quot;delete&quot; option with special components for track purpose, they were lightweights only by virtue of being stripper models-no special parts to reduce OA weight(like the 14-15 Z28)

[flyingn]

If the factory did not offer it as an option it could not be done. It was a different time in the 80's then it was in the 60's as far as liability goes. Since none of the manufactures offered a sound deadener delete and sealer delete, it was not available. Ford had the Cobra R's which had no radio, ac and no back seat. That would be the closest thing to a 'lightweight' factory car

[Dave Rifkin]

I thought Olds had built, or was considering building 50 special Cutlass cars to drag racing with the help of Ed Quay race cars. I don't know if that ever happened but, I am fairly certain that I read about it back then.

[Keith Seymore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flyingn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the factory did not offer it as an option it could not be done. It was a different time in the 80's then it was in the 60's as far as liability goes. Since none of the manufactures offered a sound deadener delete and sealer delete, it was not available. Ford had the Cobra R's which had no radio, ac and no back seat. That would be the closest thing to a 'lightweight' factory car </div></div>

This is correct.

The factory would not have been able to simply delete the materials spontaneously; it would have to be a pre-defined, thought out approved package with a specific RPO assigned (like the 1LE Camaros mentioned above).

K

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

I think the 1LE's had an aluminum driveshaft to cut weight (?)

[olredalert]

----Bodies in white have always been an option for those who are connected or know how. They are just that, though, and nothing more. Not even a C-of-O. At the most, a bill of sale.....Bill S

[old5.0]

Thanks for the responses everyone. Just to clarify, an 87 Mustang coupe with the above deletions does exist. I've seen the car and the paperwork; both are legit. It was ordered with the 5.0 5-speed drivetrain, radio delete and no other options. The original owner attempted to order it with manual steering and brakes, as well, but that was declined.

The OO did indicate that the process of ordering the car was... interesting. Numerous hoops were jumped through. I want to determine whether those hoops were due to some sort of illegality or because Ford just didn't want to be bothered with building the car.

[69hurstSC]

As stated above the Cobra-R's come to mind but that's about it.

[Fast67VelleN2O]

There was the WE4 T Type which had some aluminum components. Some Cutlass G bodies had aluminum hoods and radiator supports.

[old5.0]

Some Fox Mustangs have been found with aluminum bumper bars, but they're rare and there seems to be no logical pattern as to which cars got them.

[marxjunk]

there has been a program in existence since the 70s...i know GM had them..they sold a car to technical schools etc and called them &quot;bodies in white&quot;

NO VIN just a brand new shell in primer. The company i work for gets them often in current production...especially BMWs for training processes etc..we use them to measure and do structural repairs in a training process..



I remeber somewhere seeing an article or some print on a Fox body mustang that could be bought as a &quot;body in white&quot; to be used as a race car..but it was not a car per-say it was a brand new shell with absolutely nothing on it..and was bolted to a crate

I saw an early 80s camaro, before the body change, as a shell..it was bought and intended to be a race car and it was never built

I know these arent exactly what you are asking about..but...could you imagine if one made it on the street..you could do anything you wanted

by the way..in modern times..the cars are owned by the factory and must be returned and or crushed when done with.

[Lemans69]

I remember going to the Ford dealer in '87 to check out the new Mustangs and seeing a group of brand new 5.0 5-Speed LX Notchbacks lined up in the inventory lot with no options. The window stickers were blank in the options section. No A/C, no radio, crank up windows, etc. At the time I thought they were sort of like the COPO Camaros, and would probably be valuable in the future. I always wondered what happened to those cars.

[flyingn]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fast67VelleN2O</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was the WE4 T Type which had some aluminum components. Some Cutlass G bodies had aluminum hoods and radiator supports. </div></div>

The alum parts on the WE4 are because of the open rear. The G80 limited slips had the steel bumper inserts and the open rears had alum. Same as the GN's.

[old5.0]

Good discussion. Again, a Mustang with these deletions does exist, but what's the consensus? Illegal, or just an extremely unusual circumvention of corporate policy?

[old5.0]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lemans69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I remember going to the Ford dealer in '87 to check out the new Mustangs and seeing a group of brand new 5.0 5-Speed LX Notchbacks lined up in the inventory lot with no options. The window stickers were blank in the options section. No A/C, no radio, crank up windows, etc. At the time I thought they were sort of like the COPO Camaros, and would probably be valuable in the future. I always wondered what happened to those cars. </div></div>

Basically every coupe ordered that way (that wasn't an SSP) would have been ordered specifically with racing in mind. Most would have been hacked up and raced to death long ago. I've been on the hunt for a reasonably clean, zero option, radio delete 5.0 coupe for several years now with no luck. I've owned several 5.0 coupes, but they've all either had options, been ex race cars with serious issues or both.

[old5.0]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Rifkin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought Olds had built, or was considering building 50 special Cutlass cars to drag racing with the help of Ed Quay race cars. I don't know if that ever happened but, I am fairly certain that I read about it back then. </div></div>

I keep hearing about these things and it's really getting my curiosity up. Can any Olds guys shed any light on this?

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Ed Quay was involved? His ship is like 10 min from my house!

[Kurt S]

I remember being in a local junkyard in the 90's and there was a row of Mustang shells. The Rouge plant was working on the paint process and these shells had several coats of paint on them as they kept cycling them through the paint booth. The yard said in no way were those cars leaving except to be crushed.
I heard of someone that worked at the Rouge and their Mustang was painted bright blue then again white. I heard that in certain light the blue popped through.

[Late BrakeU2]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marxjunk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">there has been a program in existence since the 70s...i know GM had them..they sold a car to technical schools etc and called them &quot;bodies in white&quot;

NO VIN just a brand new shell in primer. The company i work for gets them often in current production...especially BMWs for training processes etc..we use them to measure and do structural repairs in a training process..



I remeber somewhere seeing an article or some print on a Fox body mustang that could be bought as a &quot;body in white&quot; to be used as a race car..but it was not a car per-say it was a brand new shell with absolutely nothing on it..and was bolted to a crate

I saw an early 80s camaro, before the body change, as a shell..it was bought and intended to be a race car and it was never built

I know these arent exactly what you are asking about..but...could you imagine if one made it on the street..you could do anything you wanted

by the way..in modern times..the cars are owned by the factory and must be returned and or crushed when done with. </div></div>

In Dec of 89 I purchased a one of four built 1988 Camaro IROC 1LE from Mecum racing. They were located in MI, and were at the time one of the factory supported teams competing in the IMSA Firehawk endurance series. The team manager hauled the car out west to deliver to me,as he was picking up two 89 MY Camaro 1LE 'bodies in white&quot; from the Van Nuys plant. We met there and I remember those two shells in the transporter. Won two SCCA divisional national championships in that car, they didn't handle like production versions;) A few years later I drove briefly for W2W racing out of LIvonia,before Pontiac pulled out of that racing. They were THE factory team in that series-the cars then were WS6 Firebird formulas, same bodies in white then too.

[83hurstguy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: old5.0</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: markjohnson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the early '80's, Popular Hot Rodding built an NHRA-legal Super Stock Olds Cutlass from a brand new special order car and if I remember correctly, it may have had some lightweight deletions like that. I wanna say that it may have been called &quot;Project O&quot; or something like that. </div></div>

I've heard stories about some sort of special lightweight G-body Cutlass back then, but I've never been able to nail down any details. I wonder if they would have come on an MSO or a bill of sale only... </div></div>

There are a few floating around, some still running stock eliminator with 307's and doing very well. These cars were typically bill of sale only. Some were early 80s with updated front clips to look like newer body styles. One of them was for sale over a year ago turn key for around $25k... Rick and Jerry Ryan run one of them. Alan Warman had one, but he passed away a while back, and I think the car got caught in a shop fire as well. Some info on them here...

http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=38667

[DW31S]

There was an early 80s Olds for sale (I forget where) that was reported to be a factory built special race car that had never seen street use; I think it was on RacingJunk. When I sold new Oldsmobiles many moons ago, I &quot;dream built&quot; a lightweight Stocker using an '81 Cutlass wagon with all available factory components. Olds had a cheap version of a wagon with plain vinyl seats without a front armrest and cab-like trim. I sold a few cars without A/C, so I figured the wagon would not have air or radio. There were Cutlasses with aluminum hoods and core supports and some brackets, too. If you knew the ordering guide, there were options such as heavy duty wheels, heavy duty suspension, anti-slip, numerically higher gear ratios, and such. Aluminum intakes were on some engines and in some of the cars, depending on where it was built and how it was ordered, small block Chrevies were used. I figured the car could have been a hit in the lower NHRA stock classes.

[70 copo]

In the mid 1980's CPC Norwood Senior Management was directly involved in taking orders and building units intended for racing. The factory guys also provided a degree of track support as well. This image shows members of the Norwood Management team with the first of the June 1986 1LE units right after an IROC-Z 1LE win. Final CPC Norwood Plant Manager Herb Stone is on the Left of the car driver holding the trophy. I will ask to see if there was any known deviation within plant as to the build of the race units.

[novadude]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: old5.0</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lemans69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I remember going to the Ford dealer in '87 to check out the new Mustangs and seeing a group of brand new 5.0 5-Speed LX Notchbacks lined up in the inventory lot with no options. The window stickers were blank in the options section. No A/C, no radio, crank up windows, etc. At the time I thought they were sort of like the COPO Camaros, and would probably be valuable in the future. I always wondered what happened to those cars. </div></div>

Basically every coupe ordered that way (that wasn't an SSP) would have been ordered specifically with racing in mind. Most would have been hacked up and raced to death long ago. I've been on the hunt for a reasonably clean, zero option, radio delete 5.0 coupe for several years now with no luck. I've owned several 5.0 coupes, but they've all either had options, been ex race cars with serious issues or both. </div></div>

I worked at a Chevy dealer as a lot attendant in 1993 while in my last year of college. Some guy traded a dark blue 5.0 LX Notch with a light blue interior on a new LT1 Z28. Car was odd in that it had no A/C, roll-up windows, cheap vinyl interior. It was an AOD car.

At the time, I had a '70 Nova with a mild 350 that ran high-14s. My Nova could easily take most stock loaded-up GTs when street racing (not that I condone that sort of thing). <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif

I got to drive this stripped LX around a bit - that SOB would RUN! Felt a lot faster than my Nova. It had to be super light compared to the typical 5.0.

[old5.0]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I remember being in a local junkyard in the 90's and there was a row of Mustang shells. The Rouge plant was working on the paint process and these shells had several coats of paint on them as they kept cycling them through the paint booth. The yard said in no way were those cars leaving except to be crushed.
I heard of someone that worked at the Rouge and their Mustang was painted bright blue then again white. I heard that in certain light the blue popped through. </div></div>


No kidding! I knew a guy up in Omaha back then that had a body-in-white he was turning into a drag car. He mentioned that when the shell got to his shop it had a mile of paint on it.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are a few floating around, some still running stock eliminator with 307's and doing very well. These cars were typically bill of sale only. Some were early 80s with updated front clips to look like newer body styles. One of them was for sale over a year ago turn key for around $25k... Rick and Jerry Ryan run one of them. Alan Warman had one, but he passed away a while back, and I think the car got caught in a shop fire as well. Some info on them here...

http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=38667</div></div>

Awesome! Thanks for posting. Some interesting stuff over on classracer, but now I'm hooked. I've got to find out more about these.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the mid 1980's CPC Norwood Senior Management was directly involved in taking orders and building units intended for racing. The factory guys also provided a degree of track support as well. This image shows members of the Norwood Management team with the first of the June 1986 1LE units right after an IROC-Z 1LE win. Final CPC Norwood Plant Manager Herb Stone is on the Left of the car driver holding the trophy. I will ask to see if there was any known deviation within plant as to the build of the race units.</div></div>

That would be great, thanks. I'm very interested to find out the answer to that question.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I worked at a Chevy dealer as a lot attendant in 1993 while in my last year of college. Some guy traded a dark blue 5.0 LX Notch with a light blue interior on a new LT1 Z28. Car was odd in that it had no A/C, roll-up windows, cheap vinyl interior. It was an AOD car.

At the time, I had a '70 Nova with a mild 350 that ran high-14s. My Nova could easily take most stock loaded-up GTs when street racing (not that I condone that sort of thing). wink

I got to drive this stripped LX around a bit - that SOB would RUN! Felt a lot faster than my Nova. It had to be super light compared to the typical 5.0.
</div></div>

People tend to lump all 80's cars into one group, Mustangs included, and so one 5.0 Mustang is exactly the same as every other 5.0 Mustang. In fact, there's a lot of variation from year to year, and even between same-model-year cars.

Using 1987 as an example, the difference between a loaded GT with A/C, auto and 2.73's and a stripper 5-speed, 3.08 coupe is easily a full second plus and 10 mph in the quarter.

To put that into perspective, a stock EFI 5.0 with A/C and auto will put down around 185 horsepower to the wheels, which lines up well with the 225 flywheel horsepower rating, while the exact same car with the stick and minus A/C will put down around 210-215 RWHP. In fact, I've seen a few 87 sd cars put down the full 225 rating to the tires, which would rate somewhere around 260-270 flywheel horsepower. Add in the 2-300 pound weight savings, and it's easy to see why the no-option coupe feels much faster than the typical street cruiser GT: because it is! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/burnout.gif

[novadude]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: old5.0</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To put that into perspective, a stock EFI 5.0 with A/C and auto will put down around 185 horsepower to the wheels, which lines up well with the 225 flywheel horsepower rating, while the exact same car with the stick and minus A/C will put down around 210-215 RWHP. In fact, I've seen a few 87 sd cars put down the full 225 rating to the tires, which would rate somewhere around 260-270 flywheel horsepower. Add in the 2-300 pound weight savings, and it's easy to see why the no-option coupe feels much faster than the typical street cruiser GT: because it is! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/burnout.gif
</div></div>

Definitely true. Years after driving that LX, I had a loaded '95 GT w/ AODE and 3.27 gears. Basically the same engine with a different upper intake. I added a catback, h-pipe with high flow cats, custom tuning, ported lower intake, and 9.5&quot; torque converter. The best it ever ran was 14.4x @ 95 mph. A stock low option FOX LX would run faster or just as fast with no mods. Stock, my '95 was like a 15.2x @ 91 mph car.

[russgt]

My brother had an 88' LX 5.0 5speed, that was AC delete with crank up windows. It also had the optional 3.08 rear end. I still actively watch for one thats similar.

Back when we were younger and dumber, he was friends with a state trooper and wanted to find out the cars top speed. So the cop set up to gun him and after a 5 mile start to get up to speed he was clocked at 172. The motor was 30 over, had a chip but was still speed density, and had an off road H pipe. We never had that car at the track but based on my experience with our other 5 fox bodies, it probably would have run about 14 flat.

[Fast67VelleN2O]

http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/pts/4964897496.html

80's Cutlass Aluminum Hood.

[old5.0]

Little update for anyone who's interested. I've been hearing stories of a batch of 5.0 Mercury Capri's, 85 model year, that appear to have been shipped with a slightly larger than stock bumpstick (stock was .444, 268*. These came with a cam measuring .490, 302*). Still not sure about the previously mentioned &quot;lightweight&quot; notch in terms of legality, but there's no question that these Capri's were illegal as hell if they did, in fact, ship with those cams installed at Dearborn. Also heard about a possible process through which some of these things may have occurred without the wrong people hearing about it.

[PxTx]

Sounds real cool. That is a lot of cam in 1985. Should have been easy to notice next to a true stocker. How were they used?

[beater68427]

In 1985-6ish I built a 78 Monte Carlo with a 396 I liked the small Monte's at the time and one day I was driving by the Chevrolet dealer and noticed a new SS I went in and test drove it I thought that was just cool I liked it a lot more than the new Camaros. Over the next few weeks I thought how cool it would be to have a new SS with a big block in it and came up with the idea of ordering a plane jane Monte SS and installing a new crate LS6 I went to the dealer and asked if I could order a AC delete car and other items deleted I cant remember all that was deleted, so we sat and filled out a order for a car with a 305 and 373 posi and basically no other options having manual windows manual locks etc I told him lets order it and he said I needed to pay up front for a car like that, because he would never be able to sell it otherwise.... there went that idea... But it could be done.

[old5.0]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pxtx</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sounds real cool. That is a lot of cam in 1985. Should have been easy to notice next to a true stocker. How were they used? </div></div>

ASC McLaren conversion. Two available bodystyles, a standard hatchback and a roadster conversion. All the anomalous cars appear to be hatchbacks. It was thought that ASC installed the cams during the conversion process, but then sometime back a couple of the project principles on the ASC side were located and interviewed. They swear that ASC never touched the engine internals, they came that way from Ford. They were reluctant to comment on the how's and why's, but one of them did mention that, during the unloading and conversion process, a few of the cars sounded much beefier than normal.

One other issue with ASC installing the cams that occurs to me is this: I'm not sure that, during the timeframe in question, such a cam would have existed outside of Ford's experimental garage. Not that roller cams for a small block Ford wouldn't have existed, but they would have mainly been highly specialized, race-only solid rollers. Being the first year for a production roller-ized 5.0, I'm not sure such a cam would have readily available.

[PxTx]

That is interesting! There was a dark blue and orange one that used to run around NE Philly on Sunday nights in the early 1990's but by that time anything could have been swapped. That was the height of the 5.0 movement!

[old5.0]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: beater68427</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In 1985-6ish I built a 78 Monte Carlo with a 396 I liked the small Monte's at the time and one day I was driving by the Chevrolet dealer and noticed a new SS I went in and test drove it I thought that was just cool I liked it a lot more than the new Camaros. Over the next few weeks I thought how cool it would be to have a new SS with a big block in it and came up with the idea of ordering a plane jane Monte SS and installing a new crate LS6 I went to the dealer and asked if I could order a AC delete car and other items deleted I cant remember all that was deleted, so we sat and filled out a order for a car with a 305 and 373 posi and basically no other options having manual windows manual locks etc I told him lets order it and he said I needed to pay up front for a car like that, because he would never be able to sell it otherwise.... there went that idea... But it could be done. </div></div>

That's cool! I've encountered a couple similar cars through the years. One was a '79 Mustang Cobra. Guy drove it straight home from the dealership and replaced the stock engine and trans with a worked Cleveland and a Toploader. Less than 20 miles on the clock when the swap was made. Another was an 84 Hurst/Olds. Similar deal; the guy bought the car and had a fresh rebuilt 350 Olds (supposedly out of a 69 or 70 W31 car) waiting in the garage. Brought it home and immediately pulled the 307 for the 350.

[whitetop]

A friend of mine right out of college in 1984 ordered a '85 Mustang 5.0, no radio, or heater/AC and no options.

I guess this was about as lightweight as you could get from the factory.

He actually sold it maybe 7-8 months later due to no AC. The glamour disappeared quickly when he would go to work with a sweat stained back.

[Dave Rifkin]

What about the SAAC Mustangs? Were their engines modified?

[Fast67VelleN2O]

Here is a Grand National aluminum core support.

[Fast67VelleN2O]

And here is a thread about a Monte Carlo aluminum hood.

http://www.montecarloss.com/community/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&amp;Number=818666

[PxTx]

SAAC Mustangs were used to federalize the GT40 package used in the 1993 Cobra so that in itself was new for the guys on the assembly line. I helped a friend score one from Charley and that had a blower on it- but those were after the assembly line. Real neat cars!

[old5.0]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Rifkin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about the SAAC Mustangs? Were their engines modified? </div></div>

Yes, they were actually very similar to the 93 Cobra. However, they were all built as standard 5.0 HO's and modified at Watson Engineering.


EDIT: I see Paul beat me to it. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/burnout.gif

[old5.0]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pxtx</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> That was the height of the 5.0 movement! </div></div>

Yep, the good old days. Interesting time to be a young guy into cars.

[old5.0]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fast67VelleN2O</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is a Grand National aluminum core support. </div></div>

I'm just guessing here, but that must be pricey chunk of metal. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif