Who knows about the Mk II motor? (re: Bill Thomas)

[442w30]

A friend asked me if I knew anything about Bill Thomas' involvement with the Mark II 427 motor. A member of this site hooked me up with his son, but no dice. As the knowledge base here is rather robust, I was curious if anyone had any leads? I've read a bunch of sites and threads on the motor, but not much about a possible connection, which also may involve Mickey Thompson.

On a related note, if you know of a good site that lays out the Bill Thomas story in general, I'd love to see it - there's a lot of scattered info, almost like he's been kept behind the scenes like it seemed he was back in the day.

Thanks in advance!

[markjohnson]

There's gonna be a big story on the Mystery Motor in Hot Rod Magazine within the next couple of months including a recent dyno session of a surviving example. Mickey Thompson had two of them in the Z06 Corvettes he raced at Daytona in early '63.

[442w30]

Well, this is related to that story, although I wasn't aware that the magazine had announced this. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif

[olredalert]

----Bob Auxier in Phoenix (the guy who does so much Cheeta stuff) knows about as much about Bill Thomas as anyone. I don't know how to reach him but someone on the sight will, I think......Bill S

[442w30]

I'll try to look him up as I'm in AZ till Tues eve....

[Verne_Frantz]

To my knowledge, I've never heard of a connection between Bill Thomas and the MK-II. I know Mickey Thompson was also in CA but I think he did his own work with a <span style="font-style: italic">little</span> help from some Chevrolet engineers.

This is a good read.
http://hotrodenginetech.com/mystery-motor-development-engineer-bill-howell-tells-all/

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif

[Keith Seymore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 442w30</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A friend asked me if I knew anything about Bill Thomas' involvement with the Mark II 427 motor. A member of this site hooked me up with his son, but no dice. As the knowledge base here is rather robust, I was curious if anyone had any leads? I've read a bunch of sites and threads on the motor, but not much about a possible connection, which also may involve Mickey Thompson.

On a related note, if you know of a good site that lays out the Bill Thomas story in general, I'd love to see it - there's a lot of scattered info, almost like he's been kept behind the scenes like it seemed he was back in the day.

Thanks in advance! </div></div>

My dad made the rocker arms, guide plates, valve covers and oil pans for the Mystery motors while he was a die maker at Chevrolet Flint Manufacturing (Pressed Metal Divsion).

The only non-GM supplier he mentioned sending parts to was Smokey.

K

[Stefano]

Not much is known publicly or written about Bill Thomas and his involvement with General Motors in the early years of performance.

It would surprise me if he was not involved with the Mark II Mystery Motor in some way.

I have traced his connection with GM /Zora Duntov back as far as the late 1950s, where he built the motor and FI (I believe) for one of Jim Jefford's Corvette Race Cars. I can't remember if it was the SR2 or the Purple People Eater MK I.

[442w30]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Verne_Frantz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This is a good read.
http://hotrodenginetech.com/mystery-motor-development-engineer-bill-howell-tells-all/
</div></div>

Yeah, I had seen that article - thanks!

[Verne_Frantz]

It's entirely possible that Bill Thomas played with one of those motors, but not during the development stages. Smokey did some testing with intake manifold runner design for them, and of course, he created the extra main bearing caps (fit over the stock 2 bolt caps).
I had the pleasure of talking with Dick Keinath a few times before he died and learned a lot, mostly about the secrecy of the whole project. According to Dick, the GM top brass didn't find out about the MK-II until a reporter asked them about it at Daytona in Feb. They said, &quot;what new motor?&quot; That was when the poop hit the propeller. Anyone found working on race parts after that was immediately shown the door.
Dick told me he wanted to measure &quot;mass&quot; flow through the ports but the equipment to do that hadn't been invented yet. He was ahead of the curve as an engineer. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[markjohnson]

Hot Rod Mag also did a fantastic several page story on these back in 1963 with lots of photos &amp; details.

[markus37]

There is a book on Bill Thomas &quot; in the works&quot; now...lots of documents and original info. I will keep you posted.

[Verne_Frantz]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: markjohnson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hot Rod Mag also did a fantastic several page story on these back in 1963 with lots of photos &amp; details. </div></div>

I have that issue Mark. Along with every other issue from '58-'72.

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[JoeC]

Jr Johnson probably had the most experience with them.
a few NASCAR teams had them at Daytona in 63 but I think Jr was the only one who ran it for the full season

[WILMASBOYL78]

Here's a little &quot;mystery&quot; reading for those who are interested.

very cool <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/3gears.gif


http://hotrodenginetech.com/chevrolet-427-mystery-motor/

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/ccrp-0611-chevy-mystery-motor/

http://www.macsmotorcitygarage.com/2015/02/04/inside-the-63-chevy-427-mystery-engine/

[442w30]

Spoke with Bill Thomas III today. Don't have the answer I'm looking for just yet, but he's got a wealth of information.

The Mark I-IV engine story can get somewhat confusing, but this is what I think it is:

Mk I: The motor in the Z11
Mk II: The Mystery Motor, which was a prototype of sorts to the Mk IV
Mk III: Never produced
Mk IV: The production BBC that came in 1965

[Verne_Frantz]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 442w30</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Spoke with Bill Thomas III today. Don't have the answer I'm looking for just yet, but he's got a wealth of information.

The Mark I-IV engine story can get somewhat confusing, but this is what I think it is:

Mk I: The motor in the Z11
Mk II: The Mystery Motor, which was a prototype of sorts to the Mk IV
Mk III: Never produced
Mk IV: The production BBC that came in 1965 </div></div>

Minor corrections:
The MK-I included all the 348s and 409s, and also the Z-11
The MK-II was the mystery motor at 409 cid
The MK-IIs was the mystery motor stroked to 427 cid
The MK-III was only on paper and never developed.

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[JoeC]

also adding to the confusion is that there was also some 396 MKII engines that Smokey was working on

the 1963 427 Z11 was still used by some top Chevy drag racers in 1964 in the new 1964 Chevelle

there was the MKII mystery engine 1963 427 used in NASCAR Impalas and some Corvettes also built as 409 and 396 cu in

then when the production 396 came out in 1965 it was allowed to run as a 427 in NASCAR
as the early 396 block were made to take the 427 bore

another interesting mystery as mentioned in some articles and in Smokey's books was a 1964 Chevelle 427 test car

[PxTx]

http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww101/Plowman7/PxTx/chevellescoop.jpg (http://s710.photobucket.com/user/Plowman7/media/PxTx/chevellescoop.jpg.html)

[JoeC]

I believe Malcom D and Dick Harrell ran their old 427 Z11 engines in their 1964 Chevelles

there was talk about some drag racers getting some MKIIs but don't think it happened
Jr Johnson had to scrape up all the MKII parts he can find to finish the 63 season

In that article, they asked the Chevy engineers if any drag racers ran the MKII and they did not recall any.

They mention the guy with the Z/33 MKII tribute or something drag car but they don't recall it back in the day

[442w30]

Oh, that's right - Mk IIS. Thanks, Verne!

[Verne_Frantz]

The &quot;Z-33&quot; tribute was a creation by Roger Sortino (who also owned a few Z-11s) as something Chevy &quot;could&quot; have built, but never did. HE lettered it up with Hayden Proffitt's name and on the back panel it said &quot;Hayden's last ride&quot;. Hayden wasn't too happy about that. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/haha.gif

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

PS: I meant to say the first MK-II was a 396, not a 409 cid. Sorry for the error.

[Verne_Frantz]

Yes, Harrell's Nova had a Z-11 in it.
Verne
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/03/full-1145-23754-harrell.nova.jpg

Likewise, his Chevelle
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/03/full-1145-23755-dick_h.64_chevelle.jpg

[442w30]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Verne_Frantz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
PS: I meant to say the first MK-II was a 396, not a 409 cid. Sorry for the error. </div></div>

Do you know anything about a 402? Seems that the Chevy II GT was supposed to receive this motor but nothing I've seen outside of GM paperwork suggests anything about this motor.

[Verne_Frantz]

Never heard ANYTHING about a 402 connected to a MK-II. It's merely a .030&quot; over 396. I HIGHLY doubt that the MK-II engineers bothered to make oversize pistons for that engine.

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif

[442w30]

The 402 was referred to as 4x4, which I could not figure out but someone told me it's likely bore x stroke. I used a calculator and that's what it is.

[Paul_S]

Chevy II GT as in '62-'63 Fastbacks? Think could have had anything but SB 377 was the/a hot item. 4x4 would be trying to fit a 4&quot; stroke in there. Don't think that is a good idea.

That Hot Rod article is short but nice info. The video adds little more. Too bad they didn't run with the original manifolds/headers. That engine seems to be a stock MkII 427 HiPerf by the power output. Video said power was leaning over ~5,700... think should be like ~6,300 from data history.

Hot Rod MkII Article/Video (http://www.hotrod.com/features/1503-watch-the-first-dyno-pull-of-chevys-famous-427-big-block-mystery-motor/)

Paul

[442w30]

Yes, the fastbacks.