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Steve_Hoog
04-22-2015, 07:15 PM
I can't speak much about the late 50's or the early sixties cars; but I know there are some here that can.

I personally have three favorites at the end run of the game in 69/70.

Two are Knafel Judges that squeaked through Engineering IMO with special blocks; both Sprayed Caps, one a 428 maybe both. The well documented white Judge that was campaigned by Knafel; heavy hands on by Mr. Arlen Vanke:

http://image.hotrod.com/f/9146586+w660+h495+cr1/hppp_0708_02_z%2Btin_indian_pontiac_gto%2B1970_pon atic_gto.jpg

Less known and or accounted for but IMO just as important; this car sparked and unforgettable series of threads on this Yenko forum over ten years ago that certainly was a forum spotlight for some time. The silver one.

http://www.428gto.com/gto/silverjudge.jpg

And my personal favorite; and debatable between it and the White Judge as the most important, the one and only 350 HO Firebird!

http://www.428gto.com/magazines/march69sscover.jpg

Steve_Hoog
04-22-2015, 08:04 PM
This pic is the time that set the stage for all that Bill accomplished in just a couple of years forward, this is a great pic!

http://www.428gto.com/gto/knafel62.jpg

Astock
04-22-2015, 08:14 PM
The silver car was pretty cool. I've known Vanke since I was 14. I should have picked his brain before selling it. The car was sitting since 1971 in a pole barn outside of Akron. Of all things, belonged to the widow that worked with my Mother in law at At&T. I guess Bill and son John Knafel were looking for that car a long time. Too bad I found out after selling it to your buddy.

Steve_Hoog
04-22-2015, 08:16 PM
Astock if I remember correctly you were the one that worked with Gary to get the car to Tulsa?

Steve_Hoog
04-22-2015, 08:18 PM
Never mind that, I just paid attention to your last sentence.

I keep waiting for that car to service; it left Oklahoma a bit a go for nice resto, but I haven't seen one thing on it yet.

Astock
04-22-2015, 08:20 PM
I sold it to Gary. Man, that's a young and skinny Arlene.

Steve_Hoog
04-22-2015, 08:23 PM
Do you mean to tell me after all that chaos that went on here at Yenko over that car, no one ever questioned Arlen after the fact?

Steve_Hoog
04-22-2015, 11:14 PM
FYI there is a real good chance it was a multiple line MEMO car <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif

old5.0
04-23-2015, 01:06 AM
I'm a Ford man at heart, but I've always had a soft spot for Plymouths and Pontiacs. My closet Pontiac lust came from my mother's stories about street racing a then-new 67 burgundy 400 HO GTO, and a particularly memorable one about teaching her best friend to drive stick in an also brand new 67 Gulf Turquoise Ram Air I Firebird.

I've owned a few Pontiacs in the meantime, but I'm still waiting on the &quot;right&quot; one. The 70 Tin Indian car pictured above is definitely in my top 5, and the various threads on the silver Knafel Judge are like a great book; I still go back and reread them about once a year.

Steve_Hoog
04-23-2015, 02:06 AM
Old5.0

Don't forsake the Firebird; Royal and Royal Engineering did some phenomenal stuff with that car.

And supposedly it's a secret rumor it is still in the Detroit/ Pontiac Area; Dr. Schiffer and a couple of others have hinted to that.

I challenge Keith to go find it <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

And there are still others worthy of mention that I'll let other people bring up if they will join in the conversation; just like that big thread you re read, new interesting threads are waiting to be made if people will only talk <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

old5.0
04-23-2015, 02:36 AM
Oh no, I'd never forsake that car. I'll be honest, when I was younger I was ambivalent toward 69 Firebirds; I didn't dislike them, I was just sort &quot;meh&quot; on them. But that Royal car made me a believer. Now I want a 69 R/A IV 'Bird so bad it hurts a little. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/burnout.gif

Steve_Hoog
04-23-2015, 05:21 AM
I owned one 69 Bird back in the day; I thought I didn't like it at that time, I would like to re evaluate that that today. Having the same car back would be fine <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif

StealthBird
04-23-2015, 05:23 AM
old5.0, here's a page full of 1969 RAIV Firebird convertibles. http://www.musclecarfilms.com/1969PontiacRAIVconvertibles.html

I'll have some more pics of the Warwick Blue 1969 Bird in the next couple weeks when I go to the shop.

It's amazing all the interest in these cars in the past few years, and all the ones that have been or are in the process of being restored.

Interesting that you were sort of &quot;meh&quot; on the 1969 Firebirds back then. A lot of people were. Some just never liked the front end. Oddly enough, the 1970 GTO front end was based on the 1969 Firebird (sans Endura bumper). Pontiac styled the 1970 GTO front end with Frenched-in headlights, grilles, and &quot;bullet&quot; parking lights off the 1969 Firebird.

As far as factory built Pontiacs that came out the back door, I'd say the 1963 Tempests (and LeMans's) were the most over-the-top. One ended up with Paul Goldsmith who raced it at Daytona, and the accompanying photo is proof that Pontiac had definitely rattled some cages in the racing world. It was on pole and won the race. This car was so fast that Mercedes-Benz reportedly bought the car after this race and had it shipped back to Germany where it was dismantled and analyzed by their technicians. Mercedes tore down the SD421, they were far more curious about the way Pontiac had mated two 2-speed automatic transmissions together for this very special car, and of course Pontiac's gratuitous use of aluminum parts from nose to tail, including drivetrain parts.

Steve_Hoog
04-23-2015, 10:33 AM
Stealthbird

I wouldn't mind having several of the cars in the photo <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

I lost my web presence at my old work and am trying to get some of the stuff on the old empgmc.com server back up.

Here are two pages I have on the 350 HO Firebird:

http://www.428gto.com/magazines/florida/69julydragracing.htm

http://www.428gto.com/magazines/florida/PICS.htm

Steve_Hoog
04-23-2015, 10:45 AM
It was just this type thing that George Delorean an Milt Schornack did that spawned people like Tulsa's own Terry Drenner just shortly after, literally.

http://www.428gto.com/gto/terrydrenner/judgementday.jpg

http://www.428gto.com/gto/terrydrenner/e.jpg

Steve_Hoog
04-23-2015, 01:51 PM
Astock

Forgot that I managed a single pic while it was in Oklahoma, looks like someone had paid attention to the RAV Ignition install GM Print.

http://www.428gto.com/gto/silverb.jpg

http://www.428gto.com/gto/ravprint.jpg

http://www.428gto.com/gto/ravprintc.jpg

olredalert
04-23-2015, 03:04 PM
----I would love to see a real picture of that ignition box. In the drawing it looks very similar to the 67/68 optional Transistor Ignition available on Oldsmobiles (mainly W-30s).I have a complete Olds NOS T.I. set-up on my 67 W-30. Now if I could just finish the car!.....Bill S

----And,,,as a follow up, what did the distributer innards look like. Corvette T.I.???

Steve_Hoog
04-23-2015, 03:22 PM
Here you go <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

http://www.428gto.com/gto/rav/c.jpg

http://www.428gto.com/gto/rav/f.jpg

old5.0
04-23-2015, 03:46 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StealthBird</div><div class="ubbcode-body">old5.0, here's a page full of 1969 RAIV Firebird convertibles. http://www.musclecarfilms.com/1969PontiacRAIVconvertibles.html

I'll have some more pics of the Warwick Blue 1969 Bird in the next couple weeks when I go to the shop.

It's amazing all the interest in these cars in the past few years, and all the ones that have been or are in the process of being restored.

Interesting that you were sort of &quot;meh&quot; on the 1969 Firebirds back then. A lot of people were. Some just never liked the front end. Oddly enough, the 1970 GTO front end was based on the 1969 Firebird (sans Endura bumper). Pontiac styled the 1970 GTO front end with Frenched-in headlights, grilles, and &quot;bullet&quot; parking lights off the 1969 Firebird.

As far as factory built Pontiacs that came out the back door, I'd say the 1963 Tempests (and LeMans's) were the most over-the-top. One ended up with Paul Goldsmith who raced it at Daytona, and the accompanying photo is proof that Pontiac had definitely rattled some cages in the racing world. It was on pole and won the race. This car was so fast that Mercedes-Benz reportedly bought the car after this race and had it shipped back to Germany where it was dismantled and analyzed by their technicians. Mercedes tore down the SD421, they were far more curious about the way Pontiac had mated two 2-speed automatic transmissions together for this very special car, and of course Pontiac's gratuitous use of aluminum parts from nose to tail, including drivetrain parts. </div></div>

Funny you should mention that convertible list; I was just looking at it yesterday, as a matter of fact.

Not sure why I didn't pay more attention to the 69 Birds back then. I think maybe it was because it seems like they were overlooked somewhat by the hobby at large. When I was a kid in the 80's, I read all the musclecar mags religiously and I recall that you'd see about a hundred 69 Judges (and about a million 69 Z/28's) featured for every 69 Firebird. Oh well. Now I'm older and (hopefully) a little smarter. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif


I've heard about the &quot;Mercedes&quot; Tempest before. Anybody know if it still exists? I still wanna know what happened to the spare Powershift that disappeared out of Dale Sharp's parts room over here in Topeka. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif

Lynn
04-23-2015, 03:58 PM
Which race is that in 1963?

Obviously not the Daytona 500. No stock cars, and that race was won by Tiny Lund (sp?) in a Ferd.

Not the International GT Championship as Paul Goldsmith finished 3rd in that race.

olredalert
04-23-2015, 05:33 PM
----Steve, Thanks so much. One in the same! Wonder why Olds dropped the TI after 68 and Pontiac picked it up. There were supposedly only around 100 cars sold in 67 with TI, and that was across all Olds's, even Toronados......Bill S

Steve_Hoog
04-23-2015, 05:36 PM
As far as regular production, there were some Pontiacs but I do not remember which. It was something like a one year option or so.

These RAV pieces I listed, could not tell you if they are one in the same with that limited production run.

Steve_Hoog
04-23-2015, 05:41 PM
Google shows this listed as a 1966... that's sounds about right and I'm sure there are some here that can nail this down to a T.

http://www.2040-cars.com/_content/cars/images/39/439139/003.jpg

StealthBird
04-23-2015, 05:48 PM
Lynn, that's the 250-mile Daytona American Challenge Cup race. There were many different racing series that ran (and still run) at Daytona, not just NASCAR. The #4 car next to the 1963 Tempest was Mickey Thompson's car, driven by Bill Krause. It had one of the &quot;Mystery Engine&quot; 427's under the hood.

http://bangshift.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/tempest5.jpg

It was a banner day for Pontiac, and an embarrassment not only for Chevrolet, but Ferrari and Ford as well. To have a sedan take out the most elite 2-seat sports cars in the world was something that shook up the racing world. That's why Mercedes-Benz bought the #50 Tempest and shipped it back to Germany, to disassemble it to see what made it tick.

Pontiacs dominated NASCAR in 1962 winning 22 of 53 races. The other races were split between Chevrolet, Plymouth, and Ford.

StealthBird
04-23-2015, 05:56 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: olredalert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">----Steve, Thanks so much. One in the same! Wonder why Olds dropped the TI after 68 and Pontiac picked it up. There were supposedly only around 100 cars sold in 67 with TI, and that was across all Olds's, even Toronados......Bill S </div></div>

Pontiac offered transistorized ignition back on the 1963-1964 Pontiacs, and it was optional on 1964-1967 GTO's.

Lynn
04-23-2015, 07:06 PM
Thanks Mike. I knew there were lots of races, just didn't know which one it was.

442w30
04-23-2015, 08:29 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: olredalert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">----Steve, Thanks so much. One in the same! Wonder why Olds dropped the TI after 68 and Pontiac picked it up. There were supposedly only around 100 cars sold in 67 with TI, and that was across all Olds's, even Toronados......Bill S </div></div>

Is the option K66? Then I can tell you a bit about production thanks to the GM Heritage Center.

For F-85/Cutlass/etc. almost 1900 were built through June 1967. The July sheet is missing so that's not total production.

Tenney
04-23-2015, 10:01 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StealthBird</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It was a banner day for Pontiac, and an embarrassment not only for Chevrolet, but Ferrari and Ford as well.</div></div>

The original &quot;GTO vs. GTO&quot;!

StealthBird
04-23-2015, 10:11 PM
Actually, on the topic of cars that made it out the back door at Pontiac, I believe Tenney has one of those. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif