worth it or just plain robbery?

[Spooky]

Hi all, My name is Scott and am fairly new here but have been on Team Camaro for 15 years. I have owned a 69 Camaro RS/SS x22 since 1988. The resto has gone slow due to life and limited funds but is progressing. I recently got a NCRS report and have found the selling dealer, which is out of business. I did contact the dealerships owners son (who I think is about 60ish years old) and he said he would look for paperwork. I originally was looking for a dealer emblem or plate frame. Fast forward to yesterday when he emails me back that he has the original invoice and a few more details about it and is asking for $2,000 cash.

My car does not have a matching numbers engine or trans, and is not going to be "factory correct" or will be sold willingly. I do think it has some value but $2,000? To me that is a couple of mortgage payments. These days while working on my car I feel that I am a little fish playing in a big boy pond, seeing on how much people are paying for correct stuff.

Any opinions are appreciated
Scott

[ne70ss]

Way out of line.

[PapaSmurf]

Like everything else with a restoration; one questions money spent versus added value (real or imagined) and this is the same. Other than being able to tell people you have the original invoice, what value is there in having it?
IMHO

[TDW]

Two grand is robbery. The guy is a jerk. If he had any class, he would say "give me 50 bucks for my time and it's yours". I know I would.

[RST]

If your car was matching numbers then I would say 2000.00 would be well worth it, along with an affidavit from him stating the car is correct and the paperwork is legit, with that it would verify your car and add considerable value. However since your car is not matching and you are not building it to correct factory standards, 2000.00 for this totally unnecessary paperwork is NOT money well spent.

Just my 2 cents.

[neresto]

What was the original selling dealer of your car. Many of us have searched high and low far any shred of paperwork for our cars and it's nice to know where it may be available. I have personally paid much more than 2k for original dealer paperwork. IMO For your original X22 RS you will get back multiple times the cost of the paperwork and if it's a L78 it will double the value of the car. It will also allow you to feel more comfortable investing money in the car.

[Spooky]

The car was sold from Brown Chevy Olds in Powhatan VA. It is a low HP 396/325

[Charley Lillard]

Offer 250.00 and explain that because it is not numbers matching or high hp etc that is not worth 2000.00. 250.00 is better than nothing and nobody else is going to buy it. If he says no just keep his # and pass it on to whoever you sell it to in the future. Or ask him to email you a pic of it.

[Lynn]

Exactly what Charley said. I have seen guys give up complete smog systems, exhaust manifolds and other parts that were removed in week one for less. A REAL CAR GUY would give it to you. I understand he may have spent some time looking, but seriously, $2k is way out of line. What a ******.

[x77-69z28]

Robbery without a gun! If he is the son of the owner of the dealership, he should be happy to give it to you. What is wrong with people?

[earntaz]

Scott -- don't let him set the hook ... spit it out!

[L78steve]

If he has the paper he is entitled to make a buck. He is fishing, explain your situation and make an offer.

[marxjunk]

i feel different...i thinks its excessive..but probably worth it, since documentation is so important...

its so rare to have...i think i'd do it if it was a car i was attached to..just my opinion

of course id beat on the guy a bunch....but...where ya gonna get another shot at it?

[BJCHEV396]

The guy's a rip-off artist!

[scuncio]

I have to agree with Mark...it's an opportunistic move on the seller's part, but I would be prepared to spend around half the asking price. I'd pay that for the invoice for any of my hi-po Chevys, in fact.

[PeteLeathersac]

Bummer he wants so much but best be honest and tell him thanks but you simply can't afford it also ask if he'd consider anything less?
Keep in mind too that if this is a genuine response to an ad you placed, an untapped treasure trove of dealer paperwork may exist for others including some much more valuable?
That said, perhaps Verne or others w/ Z11 info can check deeper into this thought but wasn't Powhatan VA also home to Jack May's Sox/Sinclair Service?
If so and unless unless known otherwise, it's certainly worth checking into possibilities of this Powhatan Chevy dealership being the ordering/delivering dealer for any of the Jack May/Ronnie Sox/Larry Wilson Z11 cars?
Long shot but worth trying as 2 g's may quickly seem cheap if any original Z11 paperwork!
Best of luck!
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[the427king]

I would have paid him already.

[markjohnson]

Unfortunately no Z11 cars came out of Brown Chevy-Olds.

[iluv69s]

I paid 1000 bucks for my original ZL1 paperwork including a signed letter from Fred Gibb !!! Would have definitely paid 10x that...2000 for this car is steep, but I would try offering 1000 but if not, I'd pay his price...

[Spooky]

I think that it is the difference on cars/wallets that come into play. I see most of you have very valuable cars that most of the general collector public can not afford. To me that is 2 mortgage payments. I took Charlies advice and sent an email. We will see. If the car was original, I would be in the truck for a 20+ hour road trip

Scott

[MosportGreen66]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: the427king</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would have paid him already. </div></div>

End of thread. Listen to Chuck.

I paid more that amount for the Protect-o-plate for my old '66 L72 Corvette and paid about that much for the paperwork from my 1970 LT1 Corvette. If the paperwork became available for my '69 Z28, I'd pay even more. Documentation is the end game in this hobby. If you can afford to pay the man, I suggest doing so. While I do not agree with his methodology or reasoning for making you pay him, it is an unfortunate evil in this hobby.

Dan

[Charley Lillard]

But this is not a L72, LT1 Vette or a 69 Z28. It is a non numbers matching 325 hp 69 Camaro that he is not going to do a &quot;factory correct&quot; resto on and he has no plans to sell it any time soon. He could offer 250.00 and leave him his # if he ever changes his mind. He is on a budget. I don't have a problem with the seller wanting money but Scott has already stated &quot;resto has gone slow due to life and limited funds&quot;. It sounds to me like the 2K is not something just sitting around. I would spend the 2K on other things like getting the car done and worry about the paperwork later. I don't think it is going anywhere.

[PeteLeathersac]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: markjohnson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unfortunately no Z11 cars came out of Brown Chevy-Olds. </div></div>

Bummer but thanks for clarifying that Mark.
It was just a thought anyway, sure wish it could've turned out otherwise.

Back to the subject at hand, perhaps someone here other than the OP should consider buying the whole lot of whatever exists of Brown Chevy/Olds Powhatan dealer paperwork?
If the seller would let it all go for a larger chunk, a quick cruise of what's there by someone understanding of the big picture may be enough to know if a worthwhile venture/adventure?
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif
~ Pete

[67 Nova Boy]

X2 Charlie!


Dave
67 Nova Boy

[m22mike]

X3 Charley, hopefully the guy will come to understand there is not 2K of paper there based on the car.

Mike

[MosportGreen66]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But this is not a L72, LT1 Vette or a 69 Z28. It is a non numbers matching 325 hp 69 Camaro that he is not going to do a &quot;factory correct&quot; resto on and he has no plans to sell it any time soon. He could offer 250.00 and leave him his # if he ever changes his mind. He is on a budget. I don't have a problem with the seller wanting money but Scott has already stated &quot;resto has gone slow due to life and limited funds&quot;. It sounds to me like the 2K is not something just sitting around. I would spend the 2K on other things like getting the car done and worry about the paperwork later. I don't think it is going anywhere. </div></div>

I don't disagree with any of what you're saying. I'm just defending the point of been there, done that. These situations are tough to navigate no matter the cost, car, original born with or not. I do maintain the position that the paperwork should not be held hostage away from the car but that is a whole other topic.

Dan

[markjohnson]

And to think . . . I've tracked down several cars/people to reunite them with lost paperwork for free when I could've been making mad bank this whole time. Sheesh!

[427TJ]

Capitalism, pure and simple. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if you got 2K together, went to him, looked over the paper, plopped down the cash and he said, &quot;I want three grand now.&quot; It's no longer a hobby, it's asset management and the sharks swim around waiting for such occasions.

[Stefano]

The paperwork isn't going to change the monetary value of this particular Camaro very much. The original trim tag tells you it was a Big Block, Style trim and exterior color and interior trim. Good pictures of original components, sheet metal, firewall. etc. will help verify it was an RS. So Based on the circumstances discussed, I wouldn't pay $2,000.00 the original paperwork on this particular car. Offer him whatever you feel comfortable giving up.

[marxjunk]

i dunno...2Gs is a bunch i agree...but there's millions of car guys that wish they could find their invoice...it may be just a plain old SS396 but the way you guys tear trim tags apart every freakin time one is posted...id want the invoice myself...

simple equasion...whats the car worth? is it a 20 grand car? id say so..is 10% of the value worth iron clad docuentation...i know its just a SS396 but i thinks its worth it the more i think about it...

take 2gs..put 500 in each pocket...look at the paperwork if is what its supposed to be..pull 500 out...tell him your not being disrespectfull..but you are the only one on the planet that wants that piece of paper...see what he does...if he doesnt flinch pull some more out..and make damn sure his wife is there and sees the money..in some cases the wife has more influence than you could understand..

remember..he grew up in the car business...he has an idea what he wants...all car sales people read people...

[olredalert]

----Mark,,,with all due respect, he IS the only guy on the planet that wants that paperwork. The son is pounding sand if the car owner walks. I would also explain the situation, etc., offer him a somewhat respectful figure and then let him stew. Really,,,The car owner, in my opinion, and in this instance, has the upper hand. He already knows where the car was sold from and he knows how the car was delivered and he knows he can sleep at night if he doesn't get the paper......Bill S

[marxjunk]

true...true

[TDW]

Lot of different opinions here. I guess that I'm still from the era where people helped each other out. Maybe not the era, but I just think like this. If I can help someone out, I will. I've given away many parts that I don't need, some small that aren't worth much and some that would carry a decent price tag. Some to guys on this site, hell, I even pay shipping when I give something away. I've loaned parts to guys from this site that I have no idea who they are. I fix the kids in the neighborhoods bikes and go-carts, fix the neighbors mowers, plow snow for a bunch of people, all for no charge, ever. I've helped guys get parts and different things they need, just to help out. If I had the paperwork, I'd send it to the OP, FREE of charge. Maybe I'm doing it wrong after all.

[marxjunk]

i have done the same...i had a build sheet for a hemi convert...called Galen, and he hooked me up with the current owner and i sent it to him for exactly $0

i bought a hemi convert sheet off ebay for 60 ( i think it was that..cheap..cant remember any more its been so long..i know it was under $100) and sent it to the current owner for what ever i paid...

both where shocked and astounded...

lots of feel good points

[Fast67VelleN2O]

I've reunited a few Muncie transmissions and a block or 2 to the original car. Didn't make them pay more than current market value. I never held anything hostage. That's just cruel.

[luzl78]

The additional documentation does help the owner,if and when he decides to sell, an added incentive to sell the car and maybe get some more. If I were a potential buyer I would love to have that documentation.

[Mr70]

I would pass on it for 2K,but keep his contact info in my file for any perspective buyers for when the day comes that you decide to sell that Camaro,for just the reason stated before mine.
Let them pay him,not you.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Just for a point of reference, I believe the Yenko paperwork from Warren is $500/page. Also, a buddy has the original invoices from a dealership, and he also gets $500/page.

[427.060]

Original paperwork for a Yenko or ZL1 can add tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to the value of the car. The paperwork for this car will add very little value. At most, I would pay $500 just to have it. Anything more and it is just throwing money away.
James

[kwhizz]

Put a LS engine in it so you can drive it anywhere.......then the paper work doesn't matter......My solution to the problem........LOL

[earntaz]

Stir, stir, stir ... LOL

[kwhizz]

Just my opinion..........lol

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427.060</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Original paperwork for a Yenko or ZL1 can add tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to the value of the car. The paperwork for this car will add very little value. At most, I would pay $500 just to have it. Anything more and it is just throwing money away.
James </div></div>

Exactly! So, $500 / Yenko page should put this pricing into perspective, and IMHO is a good line of logic towards negotiating per Charlie's advice.

[69hurstSC]

The people telling you to &quot;pay him already&quot; probably have much deeper pockets than some of us other enthusiasts. I've been in that situation where something is &quot;two mortgage payments&quot; as well.

Perhaps he has additional items he can offer to make the $2,000 worth your effort. Ask if he has an original dealer plate or badging. How about some original sales brochures or other items pertaining to the dealership in general. That way you can recoup some of your costs.

[x77-69z28]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kwhizz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Put a LS engine in it so you can drive it anywhere.......then the paper work doesn't matter......My solution to the problem........LOL </div></div>
That's your solution to everything!!! LOL!!!

[m22mike]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: x77-69z28</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kwhizz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Put a LS engine in it so you can drive it anywhere.......then the paper work doesn't matter......My solution to the problem........LOL </div></div>
That's your solution to everything!!! LOL!!! </div></div>

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/haha.gif <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/haha.gif

Yea, Chevelle ruiner guy... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif

[the427king]

If Yenkos weren't known by VIN, the factory paperwork wouldnt be 500.00 a page...That being said ,I think 500.00 for any yenko paperwork is a sure steal even if you have 20 other pieces of factory paperwork for your car. As far as the x22 car goes,for one,many people add RS to their car.To be able to document ralley sport alone,is worth the 2000.00,since RS cars bring about 5K more than non RS cars. Taking your backup lights out to try and prove it was a factory RS wont get it done as easy as an invoice . How many people have spent thousands for an inspection or opiniin on their nom z28 w x77 or x33 tag,youd think they wouldn't need any proof either of what they have since the tag says it all .....