Restamping blocks??????????????

[EZ Nova]

So what are peoples take on this? IF an original body IS located, yet motor and trans long gone, is it ok to restamp the block/cases and pass it off as numbers matching???? Is it legal to knowingly restamp a block and say it's the original? Like swapping tags???

Reason is for this:

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/611156/re-1969-chevelle#Post611156

As I said in this thread, "In a case where a high value car (such as this Chevelle) the re-stamp or "matching numbers" only leads to one thing, HIGHER SALE PRICE. I personally look at cars that are "NUMBERS MATCHING" as born with parts and therefore more original and subsequently worth or valued higher. "

Seem quite obvious that the block has been restamped since they went there separate ways years ago. BUT yet advertised as "numbers matching" now

https://www.mecum.com/lot-detail/SC0515-214465/0/1969-Chevrolet-COPO-Chevelle/

BUYER BEWARE I guess!!!!!!!!!!!

[Stefano]

Numbers Matching and Original Engine/drivetrain do not necessarily have the same meaning.

[RJS]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Numbers Matching and Original Engine/drivetrain do not necessarily have the same meaning. </div></div>

They had better have the same meaning!!! #'s matching only happens with the original born with engine/trans etc...
Anyone that thinks restamping is OK is a Crook period. The only reason a block or trans would be restamped is for profit.
This topic seems to carry different weight in the different camps but it shouldn't.
Ron

[Steve Shauger]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RJS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Numbers Matching and Original Engine/drivetrain do not necessarily have the same meaning. </div></div>

They had better have the same meaning!!! #'s matching only happens with the original born with engine/trans etc...
Anyone that thinks restamping is OK is a Crook period. The only reason a block or trans would be restamped is for profit.
This topic seems to carry different weight in the different camps but it shouldn't.
Ron</div></div>

Unfortunately #'s matching has many meanings and in fact is a code for restamped for many. Born with original drivetrain is a more definitive term.

[Mr70]

Safe to say RJS isn't an NCRS judge.

[Jim Ferron]

'Numbers matching' 'Classic' 'Original' 'Rare' and my favorite, 'Survivor' Have different meanings to different people...

'Born with' is certainly a more definitive description.

[SS427]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paceme</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unfortunately #'s matching has many meanings and in fact is a code for restamped for many. Born with original drivetrain is a more definitive term. </div></div>

I could not agree more and any time I read an ad today that states &quot;numbers matching&quot; I automatically think they are likely restamped. I look for &quot;born with&quot; as well. If you restamp an engine or a transmission or any component parts for that matter, you are a crook and fraud, plain and simple.

[70 copo]

I thought the term &quot;restoration block&quot; was fashionable in some circles as well.

[old5.0]

20 years ago, &quot;numbers matching&quot; meant that, at a minimum, the major hard parts such as the block, trans case, etc. were original to the car. At least that was how I and most of the people I knew in the hobby took it. The language has been twisted. Now &quot;numbers matching&quot; must be taken at its most literal interpretation, guaranteeing nothing.

[markjohnson]

Awhile back, on one of those Discovery TV shows, they actually showed someone holding the car's title up to next to the dashboard VIN # and saying &quot;Yep, she's number matching&quot;!

[RJS]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr70</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Safe to say RJS isn't an NCRS judge. </div></div>

Surely not, but let me ask does being a NCRS judge make you lose your morals???
Just asking.
Ron

[RJS]

This subject or shall I say it's interpretation nowadays is like watching &quot;the Good Wife&quot; bend the truth in court.
Ron

[Stefano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RJS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Numbers Matching and Original Engine/drivetrain do not necessarily have the same meaning. </div></div>

They had better have the same meaning!!! #'s matching only happens with the original born with engine/trans etc...
Anyone that thinks restamping is OK is a Crook period. The only reason a block or trans would be restamped is for profit.
This topic seems to carry different weight in the different camps but it shouldn't.
Ron </div></div>

Ron,

Just replying to the post. Check with the auction house regarding their specific definition of &quot;Numbers Matching&quot;, each major auction a distinct definition and interpretation.

[Late BrakeU2]

69 DZ blocks are firmly in NCRS semantic land, and most auction houses list &quot;#s matching&quot; with consigned cars based solely on sellers description.

&quot;Trust, but verify&quot;
Dutch Reagan

[TimG]

Numbers matching just plain and simple does not confirm it’s the original engine in today’s world. Dealers typically use the term numbers matching to limit their liability. How about an original engine that was decked and restamped? That’s the original engine, but restamped, it gets very confusing. If you are sure an engine is the original engine, state that it is original and not restamped. You really have to be sure it is and today we’re getting pretty good at telling the fakes from originals. I feel bad for the folks that take numbers matching as confirmation that it is the original engine and not restamped. You have to go farther with your questions and inspection than that.

[earntaz]

IMHO -- &quot;Born with&quot; and &quot;original to the vehicle/car&quot; mean &quot;that's how she came from the factory&quot;. The exception to that is when those (example - Don Yenko) pulled a 396 and stuffed a 427 in its's place. TAZ

[SS427]

I agree with TAZ, if it states that the drivetrain is the same one that was installed in the car when it was built (born with) you cannot get any more defined than that. One still needs to confirm but at least the author believes it to be.

[firstgenaddict]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RJS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This subject or shall I say it's interpretation nowadays is like watching &quot;the Good Wife&quot; bend the truth in court.
Ron </div></div>

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif ALWAYS REMEMBER Lawyers <span style="text-decoration: underline">are not</span> under oath to tell the truth in the court room.

[RJS]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RJS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Numbers Matching and Original Engine/drivetrain do not necessarily have the same meaning. </div></div>

They had better have the same meaning!!! #'s matching only happens with the original born with engine/trans etc...
Anyone that thinks restamping is OK is a Crook period. The only reason a block or trans would be restamped is for profit.
This topic seems to carry different weight in the different camps but it shouldn't.
Ron </div></div>

Ron,

Just replying to the post. Check with the auction house regarding their specific definition of &quot;Numbers Matching&quot;, each major auction a distinct definition and interpretation. </div></div>


My response has no reflection on you, don't even know you.
I was just saying that the term #'s matching means born with engine. If it has to be spelled out than something shady is going on.
I wouldn't believe an Auction house if they told me a Red car was Red.
Ron

[Vern B]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RJS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr70</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Safe to say RJS isn't an NCRS judge. </div></div>

Surely not, but let me ask does being a NCRS judge make you lose your morals???
Just asking.
Ron </div></div>

NCRS decided years ago that re stamping components was &quot;part of the restoration process&quot;. That's when the current boondoggle that we're in now began. If you want to blame someone, blame them. NCRS judges only follow the guidelines that are set out for them.

[PapaSmurf]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vern B</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RJS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr70</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Safe to say RJS isn't an NCRS judge. </div></div>

Surely not, but let me ask does being a NCRS judge make you lose your morals???
Just asking.
Ron </div></div>

NCRS decided years ago that re stamping components was &quot;part of the restoration process&quot;. That's when the current boondoggle that we're in now began. If you want to blame someone, blame them. NCRS judges only follow the guidelines that are set out for them. </div></div>

Then the question becomes.
Is a restamped component merely another word for &quot;re-creation&quot;?

[bugsy]

RESTAMPING blocks or any other part on a car should be illegal. They should ban the selling of materials to stamp blocks or parts. There are a few out there that are doing this and when they are caught they deny it. If the block is decked leave that way. RESTAMPING is nothing but GREED and once your caught you are a marked person. Just my opinion.

[luzl78]

Restamping a block is only to increase the value of a car, that's all. How much do you think an &quot;original&quot; engine increases the value of a 1967 l88 corvette. Put a 427/435hp motor in that car and compare values.

[PapaSmurf]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bugsy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RESTAMPING blocks or any other part on a car should be illegal. They should ban the selling of materials to stamp blocks or parts. There are a few out there that are doing this and when they are caught they deny it. If the block is decked leave that way. RESTAMPING is nothing but GREED and once your caught you are a marked person. Just my opinion.</div></div>

I agree 110%!!!!
If its not an original component it's fraudulent misrepresentation to state that the <span style="font-weight: bold">&quot;components are numbers matching&quot;</span> without clarifying that the components have been re-stamped. IMHO!!!!!!!!

[XXXGoldL34M20]

How about some guys here that sell re stamped Distributors and Alternators. They tell you it is a re stamp in the description so are they crooks or scammers <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif Should sYc ban the sales of re stamped parts right here on the forum in the selling area?

[PapaSmurf]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XXXBlackLs6M22</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How about some guys here that sell re stamped Distributors and Alternators. They tell you it is a re stamp in the description so are they crooks or scammers <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif Should sYc ban the sales of re stamped parts right here on the forum in the selling area? </div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">As I said if they say they are re-stamped I don't have a problem with it at all. What I take issue with is the blatant lying!</span>

[earntaz]

Misrepresentation is just NOT right!!@#$ TAZ

[RST]

Unless you personally purchased the car and have owned it since day one, then you cannot and should not use the term &quot;Born With&quot; unless you have a signed and notarized affidavit from the original owner, and even in those cases, you really have no idea! So the best way to protect yourself is to make sure the seller is known and reputable, the car is known if possible .. (not a barn find) and all date codes, castings etc. match, however once again, if you did not personally buy the car brand new and confirm everything yourself, then you really have no way of knowing for sure. I purchase a lot of cars, and I always make sure all castings, etc, are correct, and that as much documentation is present as possible and the car is well known.

Just my 2 cents <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[black69]

when I read the ad for the mecum COPO chevelle in this thread, I think when someone writes its <span style="font-style: italic">still with</span> its numbers matching engine, its like saying its got the original engine to the non savvy folks out there. But to me its just creative (yet sad) word-smithing. If its the original engine, people will say it is. I myself would not believe this is the original engine to the car.

For that amount of money, I would expect to see a picture of the broachmarks on the block with the head off. When I bought my 65 L78 out of the Otis chandler collection, I got a nice clear picture of the complete block surface (roger Gibson provided), not just of the pad. Real easy to provide. This stuff is not rocket science, if you are going to ask $200K for this type of car.

That ofcourse still does not rule out a never stamped original block was used, but that is probably a rarer case on this chevelle, as one would have to nail the casting date to be correct. That would be pretty rare to get.

[Bill Pritchard]

Good Lord.....this topic has been previously discussed to death on this forum and many others, with absolutely no clear consensus of opinion. Where's the 'beating a dead horse' icon when we need it? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif

[mr 707]

you stamp numbers on the block your asking for legal trouble.

[ss427copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: earntaz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMHO -- &quot;Born with&quot; and &quot;original to the vehicle/car&quot; mean &quot;that's how she came from the factory&quot;. The exception to that is when those (example - Don Yenko) pulled a 396 and stuffed a 427 in its's place. TAZ </div></div>

Or when BWAG did the same when Ol Yeller was delivered 12/68. Bob told me &quot;we yanked the L89 and put in the Booth-Arons L72 almost immediately. The L89 sat on the parts room floor at the shop for months and folks at my dealership scavenged it for parts&quot;. OMG, if he only had a crystal ball!

[Woj]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill Pritchard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good Lord.....this topic has been previously discussed to death on this forum and many others, with absolutely no clear consensus of opinion. Where's the 'beating a dead horse' icon when we need it? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif </div></div>

Amen. I guess it depends on what your definition of &quot;is&quot; is. Or something like that. Sheesh.

Phil W.

http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq339/ladi_izz/Emoticons/beatdeadhorse2.gif (http://media.photobucket.com/user/ladi_izz/media/Emoticons/beatdeadhorse2.gif.html)

[SS427]

Like many political issues if we just sweep them under the rug they just fester and never go away. With many web sites constantly discussing this issue it is hoped that the people who are trying to fraud others will back down to some degree as they know they are being watched and scrutinized. That and many can be named so as to bring them to the forefront so that more people learn to shy away from them. Also we are helping to educate buyers as to what to look for when buying a car or at the very least attempt to show them how important it can be to hire a professional to inspect their car potentially saving them thousands of dollars. Personally I do not think this subject can be discussed enough.

[EZ Nova]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS427</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like many political issues if we just sweep them under the rug they just fester and never go away. With many web sites constantly discussing this issue it is hoped that the people who are trying to fraud others will back down to some degree as they know they are being watched and scrutinized. That and many can be named so as to bring them to the forefront so that more people learn to shy away from them. Also we are helping to educate buyers as to what to look for when buying a car or at the very least attempt to show them how important it can be to hire a professional to inspect their car potentially saving them thousands of dollars. Personally I do not think this subject can be discussed enough. </div></div>

I agree. Just because we are &quot;in the know&quot; on this site, doesn't mean everyone out there is! Like SS said &quot;With many web sites constantly discussing this issue it is hoped that the people who are trying to fraud others will back down to some degree as they know they are being watched and scrutinized&quot;.

What's sad is, I'm just a guy from SW Ontario who likes cars, has a couple and a bit of knowledge I pick up along the way. I got into this heated discussion YEARS ago with a well known, high end dealer about a car from my home town. He did pretty much the exact same thing. Bought a car that I PERSONALLY knew, restored it, and was asking LARGE for a L78 1970 Nova, in fact, he turned down $78,000.00 I believe because he mentioned something along the lines of &quot;Where will you find a NUMBERS MATCHING restored L78 '70 Nova for that price. When I questioned him on the original motor, he said &quot;they found it in a nearby state&quot; and that it &quot;was authenticated&quot; by chevy GURU. Well we went back and forth for a bit and there was plenty on here questioning ME and my right to raise the question of this well respected dealer. WELL low and behold, the owner of the original engine showed up to support what I was told and stated he STILL HAD the engine, as well as documents and photos of the motor being PULLED from that car and going into his. The seller got quite after that.

I'm just bring to light that there seems to be more then a few holes in the whole deal, re-stamps and questionable scrap/wreaking yard body. And letting the &quot;buyer beware&quot; that this could possibly be a rebody restamp piece together car as I have spoken to the original owner who sold the car WITHOUT the original motor back in the '70's. And when he searched for the car, and found it had been scrapped, he went to the wreaking yard and the owner said &quot;they crushed it a few months ago&quot;???? But yet is shows up now, with &quot;numbers matching&quot; attached to it???

SHADY money hungry seller that is putting a bad light on our hobby.

[RJS]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EZ Nova</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS427</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like many political issues if we just sweep them under the rug they just fester and never go away. With many web sites constantly discussing this issue it is hoped that the people who are trying to fraud others will back down to some degree as they know they are being watched and scrutinized. That and many can be named so as to bring them to the forefront so that more people learn to shy away from them. Also we are helping to educate buyers as to what to look for when buying a car or at the very least attempt to show them how important it can be to hire a professional to inspect their car potentially saving them thousands of dollars. Personally I do not think this subject can be discussed enough. </div></div>

I agree. Just because we are &quot;in the know&quot; on this site, doesn't mean everyone out there is! Like SS said &quot;With many web sites constantly discussing this issue it is hoped that the people who are trying to fraud others will back down to some degree as they know they are being watched and scrutinized&quot;.

What's sad is, I'm just a guy from SW Ontario who likes cars, has a couple and a bit of knowledge I pick up along the way. I got into this heated discussion YEARS ago with a well known, high end dealer about a car from my home town. He did pretty much the exact same thing. Bought a car that I PERSONALLY knew, restored it, and was asking LARGE for a L78 1970 Nova, in fact, he turned down $78,000.00 I believe because he mentioned something along the lines of &quot;Where will you find a NUMBERS MATCHING restored L78 '70 Nova for that price. When I questioned him on the original motor, he said &quot;they found it in a nearby state&quot; and that it &quot;was authenticated&quot; by chevy GURU. Well we went back and forth for a bit and there was plenty on here questioning ME and my right to raise the question of this well respected dealer. WELL low and behold, the owner of the original engine showed up to support what I was told and stated he STILL HAD the engine, as well as documents and photos of the motor being PULLED from that car and going into his. The seller got quite after that.

I'm just bring to light that there seems to be more then a few holes in the whole deal, re-stamps and questionable scrap/wreaking yard body. And letting the &quot;buyer beware&quot; that this could possibly be a rebody restamp piece together car as I have spoken to the original owner who sold the car WITHOUT the original motor back in the '70's. And when he searched for the car, and found it had been scrapped, he went to the wreaking yard and the owner said &quot;they crushed it a few months ago&quot;???? But yet is shows up now, with &quot;numbers matching&quot; attached to it???

SHADY money hungry seller that is putting a bad light on our hobby. </div></div>


Glad you stood your ground.

As more and more people that &quot;liked&quot; cars over the years become financially stable enough to finally buy one we with knowledge shouldn't assume all have the same knowledge. A guy starts his search after the kids are grown and out of the house and because __________ states a car is #'s he makes said purchase only to be duped.
Ron

[earntaz]

Education is the key -- and as long as there are dedicated followers of this forum and the stories they relate ... the quest for truth will prevail. The sad part of this whole deal is those without a clue will continue to be hood-winked by sellers. TAZ

[PeteLeathersac]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS427</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like many political issues if we just sweep them under the rug they just fester and never go away. With many web sites constantly discussing this issue it is hoped that the people who are trying to fraud others will back down to some degree as they know they are being watched and scrutinized. That and many can be named so as to bring them to the forefront so that more people learn to shy away from them. Also we are helping to educate buyers as to what to look for when buying a car or at the very least attempt to show them how important it can be to hire a professional to inspect their car potentially saving them thousands of dollars. <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Personally I do not think this subject can be discussed enough.</span></span> </div></div>


All good comments but Amen and nicely put on all counts here Rick!!!
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/headbang.gif
~ Pete

[VintageMusclecar]

This topic is a double-edged sword.

I've personally had my ass ran up the flagpole <span style="font-style: italic">more than once</span> for informing a customer that they'd been duped into buying a re-stamped carb.

Sometimes people don't <span style="font-style: italic">want</span> the truth. They simply want you to validate the decision(s) they've already made.

The tough part is figuring out whom to tell and when to keep my mouth shut.

[SS427]

My rule of thumb in that situation is, if they ask, I tell them. If they don't ask, I keep my mouth shut. Even when they ask I have been met with some rather hostile people before. $182k paid for a Shadow Grey LS6 that used to be a Malibu. He was NOT happy but between Chris and I we got $120k of his money back from the seller so all ended well. Rick Hendrick being told two of his cars were fake. NOT HAPPY! Sad thing is, his two cars inspections were freebies and I still was the bad guy! Go figure! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/bs.gif

[XXXGoldL34M20]

A few weeks ago I was hired to inspect and consign a 1970 Challenger R/T SE 440 U-code car. He bought the car thinking it had the &quot;Born with drive train&quot; after I went under the car I told him the bad news that the Tranny was a Blank Pad service replacement 833 unit and the motor all though date code correct came from a whole different plant and car then the car it was in.
He was so pissed off he did not even want to talk to me anymore and I told him that I was just doing what he paid for.
That car went from being worth an ex amount of money that he paid out to almost half of what it's worth now.
Some guys should spend the money for an inspection before they buy a car not after they buy the car.
This also happened a few years back as a friend of mine bought an LS6 70 Chevelle SS and called me to inspect it after it was paid for and delivered to his home. Car had a fake build sheet non original drive train etc.... I told him he should have had me look at the car before he bought it.
Sellers look for people like these 2 examples but at the same time some buyers cheap out on a simple inspection that would have saved them Thousands of dollars for the small fee.

[kwhizz]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VintageMusclecar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This topic is a double-edged sword.

I've personally had my ass ran up the flagpole <span style="font-style: italic">more than once</span> for informing a customer that they'd been duped into buying a re-stamped carb.

Sometimes people don't <span style="font-style: italic">want</span> the truth. They simply want you to validate the decision(s) they've already made.

The tough part is figuring out whom to tell and when to keep my mouth shut. </div></div>



Yep x 10000

[black69]

A guy that retools convertible mopar quarters told me the other day, he has informed more that a few folks that their convertible cudas and challengers were made out of coupes. That does not go over well either <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

That's way worse that having the wrong drive train! I imagine they are just numb and speechless. I would be.

[XXXGoldL34M20]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: black69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A guy that retools convertible mopar quarters told me the other day, he has informed more that a few folks that their convertible cudas and challengers were made out of coupes. That does not go over well either <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

That's way worse that having the wrong drive train! I imagine they are just numb and speechless. I would be. </div></div>

How would they fool people if the fender tag and vin had the model right on there?
They must have used fender tags and vin tags from a convertible and put them on the chopped coupe. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif Which is the nasty re-body trick but in this case even nastier being a double whammy as a re-body and former coupe turned into a drop top. Wow

[black69]

Yep, I would assume a re-tagged car. I could imagine someone could miss that the rockers on a convertible are heavier gauge as just <span style="font-style: italic">one</span> example. You could probably get enough stuff from a wrecked or rusted car, but odds are you would miss something an expert would find.

[mr 707]

i had one of my old 67 corvettes(( sold it in 1992)) show up on ebay. it was a green 67 convertable with a tan interior 327-300 hp bought from the original owner. 15 years later it was on ebay as a 427-435 with tank sticker and pro- tecto plate . i still have the original tank sticker from the car. lol .

[SS427]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mr 707</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> i had one of my old 67 corvettes(( sold it in 1992)) show up on ebay. it was a green 67 convertable with a tan interior 327-300 hp bought from the original owner. 15 years later it was on ebay as a 427-435 with tank sticker and pro- tecto plate . i still have the original tank sticker from the car. lol . </div></div>

Oh boy would I have fun with the builder (frauder) of that car right after I got the police involved especially with original paperwork in hand. I would back trace the history until I found the guy and set him up in a conversation where he would hopefully sing like a bird. Bye bye blackbird! I have ZERO time and patience for these people!

[black69]

I doubt in court, a piece of paper without the VIN on it, would do anything. I.e tank sticker.
Now if you had a continuous non interrupted video of the body coming off the car for the first time, showing the VIN on the frame and the untouched tank and THAT tank sticker, maybe. Maybe.
But once that tank sticker leaves the car, it could belong to any car.
Odds are that guy has nothing to worry about, unfortunately.

Now I know an original owner of a 67 435hp coupe, that still has his original engine (car sold years ago). Now the car is out there with a restamp. Not an easy slam dunk lawsuit (if he did not want to sell me the car, after I buy the engine). He could go out to his garage and grind off the restamp, and I am stuck with an engine forever, I didn't need. This car bugs me, with so many restamps out there, I could actually have a real one with a real born with engine.

[Verne_Frantz]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RST</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Unless you personally purchased the car and have owned it since day one, then you cannot and should not use the term &quot;Born With&quot; unless you have a signed and notarized affidavit from the original owner</span>, and even in those cases, you really have no idea! So the best way to protect yourself is to make sure the seller is known and reputable, the car is known if possible .. (not a barn find) and all date codes, castings etc. match, however once again, if you did not personally buy the car brand new and confirm everything yourself, then you really have no way of knowing for sure. I purchase a lot of cars, and I always make sure all castings, etc, are correct, and that as much documentation is present as possible and the car is well known.

Just my 2 cents <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif </div></div>

I would take exception to that. As someone stated, &quot;knowledge is the key&quot;. I've been hired to tell people if their engine was the original or not because I have a very large sampling of original stampings. So, if I in fact happen to own a car with its original engine, purchased from the heir of the deceased original owner, then I feel perfectly safe in describing it as a born-with engine. Who do <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 14pt">I</span></span> hire to verify my claim?

I know this brings up notions of the fox guarding the hen house, but truth and my reputation are of utmost importance to me. Maybe that's why, given the information I have about certain cars, that I'm still broke.

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif

[Lynn]

Agree 100%. Would it be nice to be the original owner? Sure.
Is an affidavit from the original owner bullet proof? Absolutely not.
To me, the expert opinion of a stamp's authenticity is worth way more than the affidavit.

[Mr70]

Agree.
S***,there's a few original owners out there today claiming they still have their original born with engine,when they really don't,and they know it.

[RST]

[/quote]

I would take exception to that. As someone stated, &quot;knowledge is the key&quot;. I've been hired to tell people if their engine was the original or not because I have a very large sampling of original stampings. So, if I in fact happen to own a car with its original engine, purchased from the heir of the deceased original owner, then I feel perfectly safe in describing it as a born-with engine. Who do <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 14pt">I</span></span> hire to verify my claim?

I know this brings up notions of the fox guarding the hen house, but truth and my reputation are of utmost importance to me. Maybe that's why, given the information I have about certain cars, that I'm still broke.

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif [/quote]

While you make some great points, if you state that it is the &quot;Born with Drivetrain&quot; that is based on your opinion and your educated assumption, but you really don't have proof other then your word and your research. I am perfectly comfortable with a person making a statement that, based on the engine stamping, castings, documentation, history, etc, it is believed to be the original born with drivetrain. I mean no disrespect what so ever and I am sure you are 100 times the expert I am on engine stampings etc, I am just stating facts and the facts are, that unfortunately it is virtually impossible to guarantee originality, trust me I wish it was, I have spent a lot of money on cars with the belief that I am purchasing numbers matching cars, and that is why this site is so very important to myself and us all. Experts like you and others that are on this site that have been a part of the hobby for many years help protect others like me. And you and the other experts here on the site can provide verification services as well as information on known cars that can keep this wonderful hobby clean and protected.

Hope to see you all at SCR18 <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[mr 707]

In ohio theirs been some well known cases. One for sure is the judge who bought a so called 1967 427-435 vette. AS i recall its a felony to restamp a vin without law enforcement present. Adding fake documents made to look like originals doesnt look good in front of a judge. I always do a previous owner seach to see what they say about a car. the 2 lasts owners are usually on the title. You buy a picasso at auction thats represented as real and its turn out it isnt you have recourse.

[Verne_Frantz]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[/quote]

I would take exception to that. As someone stated, &quot;knowledge is the key&quot;. I've been hired to tell people if their engine was the original or not because I have a very large sampling of original stampings. So, if I in fact happen to own a car with its original engine, purchased from the heir of the deceased original owner, then I feel perfectly safe in describing it as a born-with engine. Who do <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 14pt">I</span></span> hire to verify my claim?

I know this brings up notions of the fox guarding the hen house, but truth and my reputation are of utmost importance to me. Maybe that's why, given the information I have about certain cars, that I'm still broke.

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif </div></div>

While you make some great points, if you state that it is the &quot;Born with Drivetrain&quot; that is based on your opinion and your educated assumption, but you really don't have proof other then your word and your research. I am perfectly comfortable with a person making a statement that, based on the engine stamping, castings, documentation, history, etc, it is believed to be the original born with drivetrain. I mean no disrespect what so ever and I am sure you are 100 times the expert I am on engine stampings etc, I am just stating facts and the facts are, that unfortunately it is virtually impossible to guarantee originality, trust me I wish it was, I have spent a lot of money on cars with the belief that I am purchasing numbers matching cars, and that is why this site is so very important to myself and us all. Experts like you and others that are on this site that have been a part of the hobby for many years help protect others like me. And you and the other experts here on the site can provide verification services as well as information on known cars that can keep this wonderful hobby clean and protected.

Hope to see you all at SCR18 <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif [/quote]

I do understand your point, but I don't think the &quot;proof&quot; you seek will ever be available for any car, unless by some chance someone took a photo of the deck stamp the day the car was delivered to compare to it today. The &quot;proof&quot; comes from knowledgeable people who inspect what is there and deem it to be original based on many factors. The age, condition, owner history etc are all put to the test to see if it appears to be unmolested. Restored cars are obviously the most difficult to document. Generally speaking, the worse the condition of the car, the easier it is to confrim originality.

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[Steve Shauger]

In my opinion if you have the experience, expertise and a data base of unrestored cars and stamping examples then you put yourself in a position to make an educated determination as to the validity of a cars stampings. Not every case is cut and dried, however if I certify or advertise a car as born with drivetrain, then I am absolutely sure of my finding.

I rather buy a car or component where the seller is stating born-with, because they are convinced because of their expertise or an expert they hired to make that statement of its originality. Is it an absolute, no, but then what is. There are a lot of variables and detective work that goes into validating a car or its components.

[iluv69s]

I guess one can never have 100% proof that the motor is 'born with'... I am sure there are experts here that could build an undetectable LS-6..or COPO... let's face it... If the experts say it is original, that is all we can go by. They are who everyone calls to document originality anyway.
I know there are experts that have made mistakes, but atleast I believe the vast majority of the real 'experts' nowadays are sincere and honest..(ie... Verne, Rick, Kurt S.. etc.)
Not talking about just your local appraiser that is a 'supposed expert' on all makes and models. I'd have much less faith in an appraiser/documentation from those type appraisers. Although a few cars I have bought had those type appraisals/docs, I saw obvious mistakes in the apprasials about original equipment, etc. I would never trust them and always decided on my own if car was original/correct before purchase. Ive never hired an expert/appraiser prior to purchase, but have enough knowledge to know what I am buying. That's why I usually stick to Camaros.
But bottom line is it is wise to hire an real expert PRIOR to purchase if you don't know enough about the car you are about to buy.
Also I would much rather have an unrestored barn find w long time storage/ownership than a car that has been restored. Even some of the most well known collectors did some shady things many years ago with these cars..sometime without any malice or never realizing the future.

my .02

[mockingbird812]

<span style="font-style: italic">&quot;I am sure there are experts here that could build an undetectable LS-6..or COPO&quot; </span> There is just too much info in certain data-collector's files that would make this highly unlikely. Some data bases can tell you when certain elements of gang stamps were changed out (i.e. certain alphanumerics had defects or slight skew in the way it was stamped) at the various plants. As long as these fellows could scrutinize the stampings, I doubt they would pass scrutiny if they were forged. JMO. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif

[SS427]

I was recently talking with a client about this very topic Sam and with regards to an LS6 Chevelle. What I told them was (other than I am about as honest as honest could be) I could very easily build an LS6 from a Malibu with full documents based on my database, experience and knowledge and pass it off as the real deal. If I can do it so can someone else. Whenever I inspect an LS6 for a customer this is what I tell them and exactly why I will not give them a certificate of authenticity, only a 10 page inspection report based solely on facts and my professional opinion. If I can fool an expert than it is only fair to say that an expert can fool me. Another reason why when I inspect a car I also try and do as much history searching on the car as I can. There is a list of restorers that one needs to potentially steer clear of due to their reputation of building clones &quot;only for the customer and not for the sake of passing it off as a real car&quot;. Ok, whatever. I also try and research previous owners. LS6 and COPO cars that suddenly appear out of thin air with no previous history are always suspect. It is very hard to keep an LS6 or a COPO under wraps for 45 years with no one knowing about it. You are absolutely correct on anomalies in stampings based on changes made on the line. However, I know many of those and when they took place with regards to the LS6 Chevelle so again if I were going to fake a stamp I could easily add those anomalies.

[iluv69s]

I'm sure the experts here could build a clone that noone could detect...they are the ones w the databases and they know exactly what is correct....

[mr 707]

past owner history usually smoke out counterfits. Dont ever trust a protecto plate. Too many original(( boxes of them)) ones left over from out of business dealers. Theirs a guy in florida who sells them every day

[RST]

[/quote]

I do understand your point, but I don't think the &quot;proof&quot; you seek will ever be available for any car, unless by some chance someone took a photo of the deck stamp the day the car was delivered to compare to it today. The &quot;proof&quot; comes from knowledgeable people who inspect what is there and deem it to be original based on many factors. The age, condition, owner history etc are all put to the test to see if it appears to be unmolested. Restored cars are obviously the most difficult to document. Generally speaking, the worse the condition of the car, the easier it is to confrim originality.

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif [/quote]

Understood and agree Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif Keep up the good work.

[old5.0]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mr 707</div><div class="ubbcode-body">past owner history usually smoke out counterfits. Dont ever trust a protecto plate. Too many original(( boxes of them)) ones left over from out of business dealers. Theirs a guy in florida who sells them every day </div></div>

Not just protect-o-plates. Repro VIN tags are supposed to be illegal, but you can buy them all day long regardless, along with the rosette rivets.

Eyewitness testimony from back in the day is far from foolproof, either. I frequently see and hear the comment &quot;Well, it's been like this since the late 70's - early 80s, and nobody was faking them back then.&quot; I don't think that's true. I've heard numerous stories about a guy from Oklahoma who, back in the early 80s, would strip parts including VIN and trim tags off musclecars down south and bring them up here to sell. While he was here, he would locate and strip cars here and sell the pieces back in Oklahoma. Off the top of my head, over the past twenty years I've probably drug thirty or more cars out of junkyards/fields/etc. that didn't have a single identifying number left on them, anywhere. And I've seen and not bought probably three times that many.


Some of those didn't make sense in that they weren't all that desirable (a 383, column auto 68 Road Runner, for example). Others, such as the 68 Hemi Super Bee, 66 L78 Chevelle and the silver 429 CJ 4-speed 71 Mach 1? I guarantee the numbers from those cars are resting comfortably attached to base Coronet, Malibu, or Mustang in somebody's garage, probably with the &quot;numbers matching&quot; block in the cradle.


Faking musclecars has been big business for a long time, and I can't even imagine how many non-numbers and just outright fake cars there must be out there. Some are easily detectable; I'd bet money there are many that are practically invisible without a down-to-bare-metal inspection.

I finally reached the point where I approached every car like it was fake unless evidence to the contrary was overwhelming. Guilty until proven innocent. Sucks for the hobby, but what can you do about it?

[mr 707]

The ncrs in my opinion got really soft in the early 90s. all those fake trim tags(( about 1990)) were showing up because buyers wanted desireable colors and they were passing them with flying colors. Reds and blacks started showing up like crazy at every show. The block stamping really showed up in 1989 in corvettes when a magazine article came out for the 435 to go to 100,000.

[EZ Nova]

Unfortunately guys, the $$$ got in the way of the hobby/passion for these cars.

I started this thread to inform those about a very strong feeling I had that this certain &quot;69 COPO Chevelle has at least a re-stamped engine and possible trans. There are doubts on the body, but that's another issue???? I just see this as FRAUD if you knowingly re-stamp an engine and pass it off as &quot;numbers matching&quot;. I think it's no different then swapping VIN tags. If I went out and stole a COPO car, changed the tags then sold it as one of the &quot;lost&quot; COPO's, how is that any different then if I stole the same COPO, kept the body, and re-stamped the engine to one of the lost COPO cars???? Or maybe I should re-stamp my 052 block and pass it on to someone as an &quot;original&quot; '69 ZL-1 block out of a long lost car???
see my point.

NOw on these so-called experts that look at cars. Well maybe today there pretty good with internet and other ways to get data. But I will tell you a story about a past friend of mine:

Seems many years ago, (hell 15-20 years anyway) he heard and stumbled across a GT-350 COUPE. YES COUPE not a fastback. Seems the car was local to us and he thought, being a big Ford guy, he would check it out. The story I got is the car had been stilling for years. Guess it had been raced, there was some sort of issues so the owner was working on it in a shop/garage. Well something happened and the owner never got back to fixing the car. Not sure if he lost interest, died or what. So when my friend went to look at it, he said it was like a time capsule. Tools on the fender, hood up, parts on the floor and off the motor. So my friend bought it. Fully restored it and took it to the big Shelby show in the states. WELL the so called &quot;experts&quot; were all over him saying this is for &quot;authentic&quot; cars and not this made-up clone. That is till Carol heard about it. He came over to see it and all the experts were sating how Shelby never had these and that the records didn't any. Well Carol spoke up and said &quot;MAN, I haven't seen one of these in YEARS&quot;. He then went over the car and CAROL authenticated it, not the experts. Carol said they tried 6 COUPE for racing. He thought they were destroyed racing but a coupe DID make it out to customer. THIS WAS ONE OF THEM.

So it just goes to show you, you can't always know what you have or what the experts think they know. SOME of these things did happen, RARE but it did. The world would have lost this particular GT350 if it wasn't for Carol being the one to say &quot;YES it's real&quot;!!!!

[RST]

Cool story EZ Nova, I agree, there is always the exception, a lot of us on the forum have seen some interesting things over the years, some in a very good way, and some in very bad ways.

Wishing you all a fantastic weekend <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[JayR]

Until the mid 90's, GM Canada documentation included the actual microfiche printout sheet showing your car. The sheets also showed dozens of other cars. I have one sheet with eleven L79 Chevy IIs on it. One of them is an SS in the rare, Canada only P code Plum Mist Metallic. You could virtually build a car from these sheets. VIN, colors, options, engine suffix codes, key codes....everything was there except engine casting numbers. A friend of mine actually built an L79 Chevy II 2 door sedan from one of my sheets. All he needed, but never got, was a new VIN plate and cowl tag. It still has it's original U.S. VIN and cowl tag and always has been presented as a clone, but it proved how easy it would be to build a car from these sheets and get GM Canada documentation for it. There are probably hundreds of these sheets still out there. GM Canada now requires proof of ownership before documenting a car, but that wasn't required earlier on. There are several of my cars still out there carrying documentation obtained in the 90's by giving GM Canada a VIN over the phone. Scary stuff.

Bob

[fiveforty]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mr 707</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In ohio theirs been some well known cases. One for sure is the judge who bought a so called 1967 427-435 vette. AS i recall its a felony to restamp a vin without law enforcement present. Adding fake documents made to look like originals doesnt look good in front of a judge. I always do a previous owner seach to see what they say about a car. the 2 lasts owners are usually on the title. You buy a picasso at auction thats represented as real and its turn out it isnt you have recourse. </div></div>

Was that the blue aluminium head car?

[Lynn]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EZ Nova</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unfortunately guys, the $$$ got in the way of the hobby/passion for these cars.</div></div>

Exactly. Same reason Picasso is forged, Renoir is forged and the $100 bill is counterfeited.

Even when someone is exposed, it seems very rare that they get prosecuted.

[mr 707]

i dont want to get to specific. Trust me alot of guys on here know all about it. You have to hold peoples feet to the fire if they want to play with the counterfit game(( fake tag and the BS)). Auctions are not a shield from fraud. A fake Picasso is a fake picasso. Get an expert opinion on a car your interested in. Or bring detail of a car to this SYC. They skewer bad cars on this site.

[bergy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mr 707</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The ncrs in my opinion got really soft in the early 90s. all those fake trim tags(( about 1990)) were showing up because buyers wanted desireable colors and they were passing them with flying colors. Reds and blacks started showing up like crazy at every show. The block stamping really showed up in 1989 in corvettes when a magazine article came out for the 435 to go to 100,000. </div></div>

NCRS has gotten really good at picking out these old fake tags at the national level. Cars show up...they take picture of tags....go to the computer for comparison....come back out on the field and tell the entrant that they are sorry that they can't judge his/her car. Also, their pad stamp data base is huge. Partial points credit for correct part numbers and cast dates has been a good thing. IMO - MCACN judging should adopt partial points in all classes for correct part numbers and cast dates - lets a lot more people try for gold. It's no secret on this site that very few muscle cars have all 3 original drive train components.

[Salvatore]

I don't know Bruce, Should they lower the standards?
Is it that important for people to get &quot;gold&quot;?
Its either original, born with or not.

Very hard!!! to find true, all original, assembly line cars with all their limbs intacted.
Makes those cars worth that much more.

[bergy]

I could look at it either way Sammy. There's a Pace Car on eBay with factory engine, trans, and rear. It's pretty clear that if/when restored it won't have any original sheet metal on it - none. So, will that car (when restored) be more &quot;original&quot; then an original sheet metal car with original engine &amp; rear, but replacement trans? I'd pay more for the original sheet metal car sans original trans. JMHO - I'd also say that the original sheet metal car in this example is more deserving of Gold.

[bashton]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mr 707</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The ncrs in my opinion got really soft in the early 90s. all those fake trim tags(( about 1990)) were showing up because buyers wanted desireable colors and they were passing them with flying colors. Reds and blacks started showing up like crazy at every show. The block stamping really showed up in 1989 in corvettes when a magazine article came out for the 435 to go to 100,000. </div></div>

NCRS has gotten really good at picking out these old fake tags at the national level. Cars show up...they take picture of tags....go to the computer for comparison....come back out on the field and tell the entrant that they are sorry that they can't judge his/her car. Also, their pad stamp data base is huge. Partial points credit for correct part numbers and cast dates has been a good thing. IMO - MCACN judging should adopt partial points in all classes for correct part numbers and cast dates - lets a lot more people try for gold. It's no secret on this site that very few muscle cars have all 3 original drive train components. </div></div>

Bergy, that has been our policy since inception. We also do not judge any cars that we find to have reproduction tags under any circumstances.

Your point is also why we offer Day2 Concours judging, which allows <span style="font-style: italic">period correct</span> but non numbers matching
parts, which to date I believe is a MCACN exclusive.

Bashton

[bashton]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: [email protected]</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know Bruce, Should they lower the standards?
Is it that important for people to get &quot;gold&quot;?
Its either original, born with or not.

Very hard!!! to find true, all original, assembly line cars with all their limbs intacted.
Makes those cars worth that much more. </div></div>

In our opinion, absolutely not. We would rather be known as the &quot;tough&quot; guys than the ones that hand out awards for sub-par cars.

Bashton

[Salvatore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I could look at it either way Sammy. There's a Pace Car on eBay with factory engine, trans, and rear. It's pretty clear that if/when restored it won't have any original sheet metal on it - none. So, will that car (when restored) be more &quot;original&quot; then an original sheet metal car with original engine &amp; rear, but replacement trans? I'd pay more for the original sheet metal car sans original trans. JMHO - I'd also say that the original sheet metal car in this example is more deserving of Gold.</div></div>

I had this discussion years back with I think Marlin about that. I am more in favor if something has to be original let it be sheetmetal, subframe, interior and things that you can see.
My Z/28 has a correct dated replacement motor. I would rather have that then a rebodied car with
born with&quot; drive train and maybe just the cowl tag if I had to make a choice.

[Verne_Frantz]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bashton</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: [email protected]</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know Bruce, Should they lower the standards?
Is it that important for people to get &quot;gold&quot;?
Its either original, born with or not.

Very hard!!! to find true, all original, assembly line cars with all their limbs intacted.
Makes those cars worth that much more. </div></div>

In our opinion, absolutely not. We would rather be known as the &quot;tough&quot; guys than the ones that hand out awards for sub-par cars.

Bashton </div></div>

You're doing it the right way Bob. Lowering the standards will make a lot of people happier for a while but soon after the value of the award will be meaningless. Organizations that just want everyone to go home with a trophy should just put one in each goodie bag.

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif

[kwhizz]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: [email protected]</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I could look at it either way Sammy. There's a Pace Car on eBay with factory engine, trans, and rear. It's pretty clear that if/when restored it won't have any original sheet metal on it - none. So, will that car (when restored) be more &quot;original&quot; then an original sheet metal car with original engine &amp; rear, but replacement trans? I'd pay more for the original sheet metal car sans original trans. JMHO - I'd also say that the original sheet metal car in this example is more deserving of Gold.</div></div>

I had this discussion years back with I think Marlin about that. I am more in favor if something has to be original let it be sheetmetal, subframe, interior and things that you can see.
My Z/28 has a correct dated replacement motor. I would rather have that then a rebodied car with
born with&quot; drive train and maybe just the cowl tag if I had to make a choice. </div></div>


Sammy........Send that &quot;Beater&quot; here to the Midwest and we will LS it so you can drive it......LOL

[bergy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: [email protected]</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I could look at it either way Sammy. There's a Pace Car on eBay with factory engine, trans, and rear. It's pretty clear that if/when restored it won't have any original sheet metal on it - none. So, will that car (when restored) be more &quot;original&quot; then an original sheet metal car with original engine &amp; rear, but replacement trans? I'd pay more for the original sheet metal car sans original trans. JMHO - I'd also say that the original sheet metal car in this example is more deserving of Gold.</div></div>

I had this discussion years back with I think Marlin about that. I am more in favor if something has to be original let it be sheetmetal, subframe, interior and things that you can see.
My Z/28 has a correct dated replacement motor. I would rather have that then a rebodied car with
born with&quot; drive train and maybe just the cowl tag if I had to make a choice. </div></div>

I agree completely Sam. It's obviously a subject with differing opinions though! I'm certainly not being critical of the judging standards - hats off to the guys who dedicate their time &amp; talent to the effort!

[70 copo]

If you cannot beat them, provide incentive to declare....

http://www.bloomingtongold.com/images/Indy/BlmGold_StampsGuidelines2015.pdf

[ANDY M]

Phil, is this why the abbreviation &quot;NOM&quot; has been changed to mean &quot;NEW ORIGINAL MOTOR&quot;? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif

[RST]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ANDY M</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Phil, is this why the abbreviation &quot;NOM&quot; has been changed to mean &quot;NEW ORIGINAL MOTOR&quot;? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif </div></div>

Dude, you just nailed it hahaha that made me smile, good one.

[PeteLeathersac]

Or if not original born with, are they born again engines?
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[70 copo]

Sadly we have so valued real stuff that the people want to roll like they have the real stuff.

[70 copo]

And the hobby is moving towards a degree of acceptance.

[58wanted]

Hello Bob,

What is the vin number of that 427/435?

Tim H.

[Lynn]

Sorry. That is bs. Gold should include born with engine. Period.
It is what is is, and guys and gals just need to accept it.
Create a separate class for restamps. Why? Because SOME of the guys want the gold cert just to get more when they sell.
Call it Gold minus or silver or something else. Just don't EVER put both original born with in the same category as restamped.
Great way to kill off the hobby.
Of course, I have no vote.
Still bs.