Car for Sale Misrepresentation

[caj]

Hi all, I'm new here. My name is Craig and I live in St George Utah. I purchased a Yellow 1970 Dodge Challenger R/T SE from Danny (XXXBlackLs6M22) that was listed for sale here as well as a few other sites. I'm sure that some of you here will remember his post. I and others feel that he has deleted all of his posts because of his misrepresentation of the car. I was hoping it wouldn't come to this but here is an update of the purchase. I want to apologize for the length but I didn't want to leave anything out.

Some of you here might remember Danny selling his 70 Challenger maybe here, cuda-challenger, or another site or you may have seen it for sale on Ebay . The car was supposed to be "perfect". I live in the US and do not have a passport so I could not inspect the Challenger. Per Danny's description, the car was again supposed to be in perfect condition with nothing needed for the car at all except for a problem with the drivers seat bottom (which he told me about in private) not being supported very well because of it's age. Danny said that he puts a pillow between the seat bottom and the floor to support the seat bottom. I asked Danny (before I purchased it) if there was anything else wrong with the car? He emphatically said there was nothing else wrong except for a chip in the drivers door paint (which he himself caused when opening the door). I specifically asked Danny about the engine and how it ran and any unusual noises, the carb and it choking properly, the transmission and clutch, the interior and all working gauges, lights, wipers, any leaks on the ground, etc....everything and anything that I could think of. He told me that the car needs absolutely no additional work done to it at all other than what he already told me about with the seat and door. Over the course of a week or two of phone conversations with Danny, we seemed to have become friends. We had a lot of things in common and I felt comfortable with what he had told me about the car being true and since I also thought he was honest, I decided to purchase the Challenger. Turns out, I was absolutely wrong. I have purchased many cars on the internet. A 73 Mustang with 2,000 original miles, 2 low mileage Corvettes, a 75 Maverick Grabber with 20,000 original miles, and an 86 Monte Carlo SS with 2,000 original miles and every one of the sellers were totally honest with the description of their cars. Everyone was honest except for Danny. I have sold cars on Ebay and have also been totally honest with my descriptions and discussions with perspective buyers on the phone. I never want anyone coming back to me saying "you didn't tell me this or you didn't tell me that". I believe in honesty.....that's how I live my life and I like to treat people fairly and that is the way I like to be treated in return from others. I also have always like to think the best of people.

The following is what is wrong with the Challenger:
1. The car was delivered from TFX and when I got in it to drive it into the garage, the clutch was not smooth acting...and when putting the clutch down to the floor, it almost pops when coming up. I learned how to drive on a stick shift and have driven them for 44 years so I know this is not normal. Something Danny never told me about when I questioned him about the transmission and clutch.
2. The car has a very loud ticking from the passenger side and when giving it a little slight revving, the car misses. My thinking was one of the cylinders has a bad lifter, valve spring, or the cam could possibly be bad. Something Danny never told me about when I questioned him about the engine.
3. After Danny received his full payment, he then tells me (on the phone before the car arrived) that the vinyl insert is separating from the fabric of the driver seat bottom and that he tucks the vinyl into the fabric to hide it at shows. Danny already had the money I sent him so what was I supposed to do now after I paid him? Something Danny never told me about when I questioned him about the interior.
4. The car has a carb choke problem. The choke does not set up properly (making it hard starting) and I am not overly concerned about fixing that as it shouldn't require much work. Something Danny never told me when I questioned him about the carb and the choke.
5. There are numerous leaks underneath car when left parked. I have seen three. I have noticed that one is from the rear drivers shock. The car sits too low to see where the other leaks are coming from, but when I backed the car out...it seemed like one of the other leaks was where the rear main is. But again, something Danny never told me about when I questioned him about leaks under the car.

On the positive, the Challenger is beautiful...I will say that about it. The body, engine compartment, and underneath are pristine. But, now with the engine work that will need to be done, how will the engine compartment and engine look when that's all done? I'm sure this is why Danny didn't do anything to really fix the engine problems because of that very reason...it might screw up the looks of the engine bay.

The engine is my main concern, then the seat, then the clutch, the leaks, and lastly the carb. All I can say is Danny was less than 100% honest with everything and took advantage of me because I wasn't there to see and hear the car myself. He was very deceitful and I'm really trying to be nice here with my choice of words. With Danny telling me about the seat vinyl/fabric separation after he received all of his money and never telling me about the engine, clutch, leaks, or carb at all and letting me find that out on my own. I ask you, what kind of person does this. Does he have any scruples or morals?

After I received the Challenger, I calmly called Danny and asked him about the loud engine tick and the clutch. I didn't want to fully confront him until I had a clear head and also had a mechanic look and listen to the car. He told me that he knew about the engine tick but he was never overly concerned about it. He told me that he and his mechanic took the valve cover off 2 or 3 years ago (Danny has owned the Challenger for 5 years) and the mechanic told him to leave it alone or put spacers (?) on to quiet down the noise of the lifter. Danny also told me that when he drove the Challenger, he would occasionally speed shift it and the engine held up fine so why worry about it? I ask you, why would anyone ever want to speed shift a numbers matching 45 year old show car and take a chance of missing a shift and breaking something and then not having a total numbers matching car anymore? Maybe it's just me but I think that is just wrong. You are all car guys and I'm sure know what I'm saying, I then asked about the clutch and he said that when he first got the Challenger the clutch was terrible...much, much worse than it is now. He spent hours trying to adjust it but this was the best he could get it. I know that the clutch is not right but Danny told me to just leave it alone because it won't get adjusted any better.

Almost 4 weeks ago I was able to bring the Challenger to a recommended mechanic that works at the local Dodge dealership. He also works on race cars with his brother after hours. He listened to the engine, heard the loud tick-tick-tick and came to the same conclusions that I did. He also felt the clutch and feels there is a problem there too and it may be a problem with worn bushings or the pressure plate. He is going to do all of the mechanical work for me at his brothers garage. I don't know him so I just hope he's good and will take care of the car. Good thing is that I can be there with him when he works on it. Although he sounds good, he has not done any work yet and I think he is having second thoughts because of the possibility of messing up that perfect engine compartment. He keeps on pushing the start date off. It's really hard getting any kind of work done in this small town. Danny knew that because that was my main concern about having any problems with a car that I bought.

After talking to the mechanic I called Danny and finally didn't have to hold all this in anymore and had a nice talk with him. I was very calm and cordial. I told Danny that I was very disappointed in him because of his being less than honest with me and that I felt that I was deceived. I told him that I thought we had a developed a friendship and that he had gained my trust. He was very quiet and admitted that he was less than honest and even apologized. I asked him if he would pay for the work and parts for the Challenger and he said no. His reasoning was that I got a good deal on the car and he was not going to pay for anything. I told him that the price I paid was supposed to be for a turn key car in "perfect" condition...which it is not. I then said that I would be willing to cover the first $1,000 of the bill and he still refused. Why would he refuse that offer...especially if I am paying the first $1,000? My thinking is that he knows or thinks that the engine needs more work than just the top end. After talking to him some more he finally reluctantly agreed to cover any charges over $1,000...but his agreeing to paying was totally unbelievable and I felt that he just wanted to get off the phone with me. To be able to continue our friendship I was willing to pay the first $1,000 and I feel that I am being more than fair.....and he balked at that.

All I can say is that if Danny would have told me about the engine noise....I would have walked away and never would have considered buying the car. I told him that too. And...that's just the engine nixing the deal for me. Adding the problems with the seat, the clutch, the carb choke, and the leaks and I would have ran away from it. BTW...The seats are all original and I can't find any NOS materials or NOS seat covers. I'm really stuck. I either keep the original seats with a ripped drivers seat or I replace all of them so they all match.

When I purchased the Challenger, I promised my wife that this would be my last muscle car because this is what I always wanted. This is the most expensive car that I have ever purchased and it should have been a GREAT day and experience for me when it arrived. Well...it wasn't. I think about this all the time now, and am losing a lot of sleep too. I had to finally tell my wife what happened and that wasn't easy either, especially since our friends have always asked (throughout the years) "how can you buy a car on the internet without seeing it? My answer always was that I have lengthy discussions with the sellers, ask the right questions, but mainly that I consider myself a pretty good judge of character. Now, after years and years of being able to trust people at their word...that's changed. Thanks Danny for everything and making me look and feel pretty stupid.

The update to this is that I am getting no where with the mechanic. I think he is afraid of touching the car. Knowing this and now wondering how long it will take to get all of these issues fixed in this small town, I talked to Danny a little more than a week ago and discussed these matters with him. I told him that I would like him to make this right because he was not honest with me. I started to tell him that he can either buy the Challenger back for what I paid for it or he can send me $5,000 for me to put in the bank (in an interest bearing account to be paid to him) to be used towards fixing the Challenger as time goes on. I was going to tell him that any unused money would be returned to him but he hung up the phone on me. I'm asking for money up front now because I don't trust him at all anymore. I'm very honest and I'm not looking to make one dime off of this guy....I just want him to pay for the issues that he flat out lied about. I just feel that he sent me a car that is certainly not as he described. It's the principle of the thing for me. Anyway, he hung up the phone on me. I called twice more and he just hung up the phone. I sent him an email and he never responded. So, I was totally right with my concern about his sincerity about him ever helping with the costs.


He lied and shows no remorse except saying he is sorry. I'm 63 with some medical issues and really didn't need all of this. I'll tell you all that he is not someone that you would ever want to trust or want to buy a car or anything from.

One thing I have learned is that a car should never be purchased on the internet unseen. I did good up till now but have learned a lesson here.

Any ideas or comments? Please PM me.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Craig

[KENNY PASCOE]

Getting to the point on here that a few bad apples misrepresenting cars on here are going to spoil the bunch for the rest of the SYC Members . Hope there is a resolution to this for you . Good Luck ... KP

[JBALL]

Sorry to hear this Craig. I bought a rebodied car from one of the used car dealers here. Please PM me for the details.

I wish you the best.

Jason

[Charley Lillard]

Please no piling on in this thread. Please keep it factual.

[Dave Rifkin]

Sorry to hear about your bad experience but, in my opinion, if you're going to spend that kind of money on your dream car it probably would have been wise to invest a few extra dollars to have someone inspect it for you. Buying something like a collector car site unseen is a recipe for disaster. I hope you can get the car straightened out so you can enjoy it.

[kwhizz]

Was the seller from Nu Yawk!!.........Seriously......I feel your Pain and basically you are in a no win situation.........Put it to bed and move on.......That's about all you can do.....

Ken

[DW31S]

I have no gun in this fight, but considering the amount of money changing hands plane tickets or an independent inspector not only seem cheap, but appropriate. Rarely is any car "perfect" and if it is, chances are it won't sell on a public forum sight unseen; it would be in a private collection and sold privately. I hope this situation can be worked out amicably and I really don't think this is the norm for members of this site.

[COPO CARTEL]

Hopefully the site can be impartial and help BOTH parties fix these problems . It's best for the hobby <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif

[daleone3]

I have no dog in the fight either but it has become the way of the world. Buying cars interstate or in this case out of Canada is a crap shoot and you really have no recourse under any circumstances without litigating and any attorney will tell you that you have very little chance of recovery after legal fees.
I had a friend bought a Nova out of mid west and got beyond screwed, was nothing like described, front springs chopped, headers dragging as it came off the truck, gauges did not work body was far worse than portrayed. He called an Attorney and was told to chalk it up to experience. It is unfortunate that you cannot trust people and I understand that after developing a rapport you felt that you had &quot;bonded&quot; with the seller however I would offer that was a tactic and not genuine to draw you in.
I also find it interesting that the posts advertising the car are no longer up, leads me to believe further that the plan was to misrepresent the condition of the car as any posting could potentially be used for litigation.
To the earlier point, get an inspection or view the car in person and assume that no matter what, you are dealing with someone that will take advantage of you. Condition is a subjective thing, I say a car is in excellent condition....what is my measure? My opinion, my experience?
This is a shame but I really don't think you have any recourse that would be less expensive than fixing the car the way you want it and moving on.
Best of luck, sorry to hear this happened.

[SS4Real]

I would get it fixed on move on. No car is perfect and even the very good ones need some type of maintenance if they are driven. While the seller may not have been as forthcoming as you are, nothing substitutes for an inspection by you. Sorry to hear it was not as good as you had hoped, but it can be fixed. The issues you describe don't sound all that daunting. There are lots of good restorers out there that can fix your car to your standards. I've had my car for 17 years and it was nearly perfect when I bought mine, yet I still fix or make something better every year.

I would like to hear from the other side. Sounds like a fair compromise is in order.

[Charley Lillard]

I have changed the settings in the for sale section so now after 24 hours the post can't be edited. It would have been nice to see what the ad had said.

[Don_Lightfoot]

It is unfortunate to read these circumstances regarding Danny. He and I have communicated over the years on the odd matter. I certainly cannot comment on the car since I don't recall seeing the &quot;for sale&quot; ad.

When I got back into the hobby in 1991 I bought a 64 GTO based on pictures only. It was a long way away in Alberta so travelling to inspect it was tough. I knew it needed a full restoration so some of the misrepresented items in the ad did not upset me too much. Also, values back then were nowhere near what they are today. I never did get back to him once I received and inspected the car. Deal was done and so be it. I restored the car and enjoyed it for a few years.

Since that time I have purchased four other Musclecars. I did personal inspections on all of them. Two of them were in Florida which was a major expense to go and see them. Each one had some issues which I learned in the inspections and others after I got them home. For me there was always things I wanted to do to the cars anyway to improve them, etc., so I didn't lose any sleep over the issues. For each of them I was happy with what I got, where I improved it and enjoyed them as well. Since I am not an investor, I was not overly worried about the money spent to improve and/or correct things as it was all about the enjoyment. At least that was my philosophy which can obviously be different than other people.

As mentioned earlier, I cannot comment on the correctness of the ad. What bothers me in today's world is a lot of manipulation in &quot;wording&quot; for a bunch of sale ads (not saying it was done in this circumstance). I can only imagine that every car that is sold needs something, some more than others. Hard to itemize all items in an ad. More times than not I would say these items would be disclosed and/or discussed in telephone conversations before the sale. From your standpoint it appears not all of this was done in this case.

From what you say Craig all the items can be addressed. If this is indeed the car you want then go ahead and fix them I guess (as was mentioned by another member previously). Once it's done then you will be happy and be able to enjoy it rather than dwell on the sale process itself. You are certainly frustrated at this time which I know will be hard to put behind you. I wish you luck and hopefully the car will turn out to be everything you wanted.

[budnate]

Craig, locate the best Challenger restorer in the US, ship him the car make the corrections and enjoy the car.

at this point no use fighting it, just make it right and drive it. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/3gears.gif

[Mr Yenko]

Just a shame that a MAN'S word is not what it use to be worth. But I always said, that when buying 20K or 200K dollar car. Hire someone to inspect it for ya.. Don't see anything good coming out of this..BUYER BEWARE

[daleone3]

To your point Mr. Yenko, could this all be somewhat resolved and out in the open if the person that sold the car who appears to be an active member here repost the ad? It is interesting that there have been many ads posted over time by the seller but this one is curiously missing from his profile history, that being the case one has to assume that there is some interpretation of the ad that may not align with what the buyer experienced.
Everyone has there own idea of &quot;excellent&quot; or &quot;untouched&quot; or even &quot;correct&quot; so you need to be careful about that but to infer a vehicle is in excellent running condition or a clutch is performing well when it certainly appears there were top end and clutch issues, makes one wonder about how honest the portrayal of the vehicle actually was.
In this case, I hope everyone realizes that you have to assume a car needs work and you have to assume a seller is going to be less than up front about some aspect of the vehicle. Not always the case but needs to be the general belief going into any sale

[427TJ]

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a234/BE427TJ/More%20Misc%20Pix/Trust%20But_zpswe4p0vtr.jpg (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/BE427TJ/media/More%20Misc%20Pix/Trust%20But_zpswe4p0vtr.jpg.html)

[RS_COPO_Canuck]

I have a Mopar or two and can suggest the following. The clutch pedal popping can be a normal thing with age - such on a survivor. If this is a totally restored car, using all new/rebuilt parts....then it should be able to be adjusted so it doesn't happen.....assuming the correct parts were used in the assembly. Ticking on the passenger side could be as simple as a heat-riser valve - check that to see if it moves correctly with no slop caused by worn bushings. May be a weak lifter not pumping up.....a pain but totally fixable. The choke? I bet the car needs a real good tune up and a proper carb rebuild. What engine? Does it match? Who checked? How about some pics so I can tell you more? Where in Canada did you buy it? I know a lot of Mopar people there - respectable ones and the ones to avoid.

[caj]

I really want to thank everyone for all of their thoughts and thank you all for taking the time to put them in words here on this board. My question about this whole thing, is it worth ruining ones reputation over a few thousand dollars or whatever the cost may be to make things right? Is it worth ones reputation to say whatever needs to be said to sell a car? My word is my word and I value my reputation. I have never sold a car on Ebay where anyone came back to me and said anything negative. If anything, I would over emphasize anything that I felt could possibly need attention. I am probably considered honest to a fault. When I was in talks with Danny about purchasing the car, he knew that about me and he seemed to be the same way. It wasn't until after he received all of his money that things started coming out....telling me about the rip in the seat and how he tucks it in at car shows to hide it. I was shocked when he told me that because there were supposed to be no further problems except for what he had told me. But what was I suppose to do at that point.

I am hoping that he will see this post and very closely think about things. I would like to see him make contact with me by phone or even on this board by private message or reply to this post. The members at the cuda-challenger board have not seen any postings by Danny to refute what I have detailed in my post there almost 2 weeks ago. I also seriously doubt that he will make an appearance to reply to this one.
I will move forward with the Challenger because I love this car. But it is hard to get anything done in this small town. That's the problem and that is what gets me upset the most. It's not like being back in Chicago where we lived before we retired and moved here to St George. Back in Chicago, you could get anything and everything done.
Charley, I think that is a great idea to not be able to modify or delete posts after a certain amount of time. I'm sure that most members that post their cars for sale here are upfront, but this can help protect people from this possibly happening again.
Again, I really do appreciate everyone's input here. You are all a great group. Maybe the input will get Danny's head out of the sand and help him in some way and get him to do the right thing. I know that he does post here a lot so lets see what happens.
Craig

[caj]

I have done research on the clutch. I received a pm from a member here saying that if a centerforce clutch is installed, you need to remove the over center spring under the dash. If you don't, the clutch will give you problems. I have contacted the owner (Ron) before Danny that did all the work on the car. He doesn't remember if a centerforce was installed, but it's a good place to start looking. Remove the over center spring under the dash may solve the problem.
The ticking is not a heat riser problem. Talking to Ron, his mechanic seemed to think it is a top end problem just like the guys that looked at it here. So I will see about getting the rocker arm shaft (one assembly on a 440 and un-adjustable) and lifters replaced.....maybe push rods too but won't know that until it's opened up.
Before purchasing the car, Danny sent me pics of the Carter carb that he said was on the car and that Ron had sent out to Scott Smith of Harms Auto (Spokane WA) to rebuild and set up. I have met Scott and he is a great guy and no one ever questions his work on carbs....he's great. I compared the pic of the carb that Danny sent me with the carb that is on the car now. NOT THE SAME CARBS!!! I questioned Danny about that and at first he denied swapping them out mentioning that I should look closer because they are the same carb. When I told him that they are not one of the same carbs because you can tell by the screw positions of the main body screws.....he quickly changed his story and said that the Carter carb that came on the car was the wrong carb and was a carb for an automatic transmission car and he swapped it out for a 4 speed manual car. Well, I have know way of knowing what is fact and fiction with Danny, but I do know that the carb needs work. I will have to get it sent out to Scott to rebuild.
I bought the car from Danny in Bolton Canada. In hind sight, I sure wish I would have asked if someone lived near there to check out the car for me. But, I didn't know anyone in the board that well and I have never done that before. I guess I also didn't want to bother anyone. I know....it's a very lame excuse when spending that kind of money but it is what it is.
The numbers are all matching. I have books and tons of documentation including the original LA broadcast sheet. I have not rechecked the VIN numbers but I plan to when we get the car on a lift. I have checked the pad numbers on the top of the engine and the date is correct and it is stamped P 440 HP and some other stuff.. I believe the engine and tranny VIN numbers are low on the passenger side. The Dana rear end is supposed to be date codes. Like I said, tons of pics with the numbers and dates with matching broach markings. I don't think that I will have any problems with anything being swapped out, but believe me, with what Danny did to me, I will check everything the first chance I get. I'll see if I can provide some pics. What are you exactly looking for?

[Fast67VelleN2O]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have changed the settings in the for sale section so now after 24 hours the post can't be edited. It would have been nice to see what the ad had said. </div></div>

Charley, that's unfortunate since I won't be able to mark an actual ad as &quot;sold&quot;. I will have to put it in the comments and rarely does anyone read that. That and the fact that if I have to mark an old ad as &quot;sold&quot;, it will bring it back to the top knocking off newer ads on the top page to do so.

[njsteve]

On the clutch issue I was going to mention the same over-center spring located under the dash. It is a heavy gauge coiled spring that returns the pedal to the up position. It takes the place of the return spring attached to the fork like on GM cars. It does &quot;pop&quot; the pedal up. It can be extremely disconcerting if you are not used to Mopar clutch pedals, especially when you have the transmission out and go to pull the clutch pedal up while working under the dash and the spring suddenly yanks the pedal back up, and you get a face full of clutch pedal. OUCH!

[caj]

It sure would be a somewhat easy fix to just remove the over-center spring. It could solve all the problems with the clutch. I've got my fingers crossed that it will be this easy.
When I questioned Danny about the clutch, he told me to leave it alone because he spent many hours trying to get it right...and this was the best he could get it. I don't know if he knew about the over-center spring or not. A friend (that I met on the cuda-challenger site) drove out from Vegas last Friday because he wanted to see the Challenger. He sees the issue with the clutch and sent me the link to the over-center spring yesterday. Nice guy and very knowledgeable.

[the427king]

It sure would be a somewhat easy fix to just remove the over-center spring. It could solve all the problems with the clutch. I've got my fingers crossed that it will be this easy.

Then why post anything until you have all the facts about whats wrong?????? Hopefully you aren't relying on a mechanics opinion that doesn't want to do work for you....

[L78steve]

Rarely are cars perfect even when new. I would not lose sleep over the issues you have. Get them corrected and enjoy life. The rear seal issue is not one to waste time on, All 2 piece seals leak soon after they are installed.

[Charley Lillard]

Send me or Paceme a PM and we can add sold. Trying to make this work for everyone.

[the427king]

Lets face it. If a person buying a high dollar car sight unseen can include a correctly working choke as being a misrepresented item,everyone that's sold a car on this or any forum can be accused of misrepresenting a car in some fashion. Im sorry your experience was not a positive one . Hopefully all the issues wont be as bad as they seem Its also too bad you didn't join this great site before the incident ,not simply because of it.

[Bill Pritchard]

I will add that hiring an inspector does not always work either. 15 yrs ago I hired one to inspect a car in CA for me.....this was a guy who has (and still does) advertised in Hemmings for as far back as I can remember. Won't go into all the details here, but suffice it to say that the car I bought based on his inspection was exactly what I told him I <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">DID NOT</span></span> want <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/mad.gif And then after I sent him photographic proof of exactly what he missed, he would not even refund the $300 I paid him.

[caj]

removed to add quote

[Fast67VelleN2O]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: the427king</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lets face it. If a person buying a high dollar car sight unseen can include a correctly working choke as being a misrepresented item,everyone that's sold a car on this or any forum can be accused of misrepresenting a car in some fashion. </div></div>


100%

[caj]

deleted to add quote.

[caj]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: the427king</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It sure would be a somewhat easy fix to just remove the over-center spring. It could solve all the problems with the clutch. I've got my fingers crossed that it will be this easy.

Then why post anything until you have all the facts about whats wrong?????? Hopefully you aren't relying on a mechanics opinion that doesn't want to do work for you.... </div></div>

I posted because there is a problem with the clutch that the last owner (Danny) could not get fixed. I received the car with the clutch not being right and am hoping that I can get the mechanic (here in St George) to finally work on everything. That could be the problem and then it might not be the problem. Who knows at this point but the problem is there and was there when I received the car. It wasn't disclosed just like numerous other items that Danny decided to let me find out for myself.

[caj]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: the427king</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lets face it. If a person buying a high dollar car sight unseen can include a correctly working choke as being a misrepresented item,everyone that's sold a car on this or any forum can be accused of misrepresenting a car in some fashion. Im sorry your experience was not a positive one . Hopefully all the issues wont be as bad as they seem Its also too bad you didn't join this great site before the incident ,not simply because of it. </div></div>

I totally agree about joining the site....I only first heard about it from a friend recently that told me Danny had the car posted here and also deleted his 4 sale posting, just like he had done on all of the other boards.
I mentioned the choke but didn't get into the whole carb issue in my initial post. In a recent previous post, I mentioned that he actually switched out the carb (that he originally sent me a pic of before I bought the car) with another carb that is on the car now. With the pic he sent me of the carb, he said that was the carb on the car and was rebuilt from Scott Smith. I couldn't understand why the carb acted so poorly, especially one that Scott worked on. I confronted Danny about the swap and he constantly denied it until I provided him proof of the swap. That is why the carb is flooding and the choke isn't working properly....because he switched them out and I don't think he ever had this one rebuilt. I'll take this one off and send it to Scott for a rebuild after I get some of these other issues fixed.

[caj]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: L78steve</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rarely are cars perfect even when new. I would not lose sleep over the issues you have. Get them corrected and enjoy life. The rear seal issue is not one to waste time on, All 2 piece seals leak soon after they are installed. </div></div>

The rear seal is the least of my concerns. Not really a biggy. The engine and clutch are the biggest concerns and the ripped seat is right up there too. Getting an auto upholsterer is not going to happen here in St George. I'll eventually get everything fixed. I know that when you purchase a car they're never perfect. I've purchased 5 online...but have never encountered the problems in all 5 combined that I have with the Challenger I purchased from Danny. I just don't like to be deceived and lied to....nobody does. I have learned a valuable lesson because of this guy. I will not be very trusting anymore when it comes to any online purchases.

[caj]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: daleone3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have no dog in the fight either but it has become the way of the world. Buying cars interstate or in this case out of Canada is a crap shoot and you really have no recourse under any circumstances without litigating and any attorney will tell you that you have very little chance of recovery after legal fees.
I had a friend bought a Nova out of mid west and got beyond screwed, was nothing like described, front springs chopped, headers dragging as it came off the truck, gauges did not work body was far worse than portrayed. He called an Attorney and was told to chalk it up to experience. It is unfortunate that you cannot trust people and I understand that after developing a rapport you felt that you had &quot;bonded&quot; with the seller however I would offer that was a tactic and not genuine to draw you in.
I also find it interesting that the posts advertising the car are no longer up, leads me to believe further that the plan was to misrepresent the condition of the car as any posting could potentially be used for litigation.
To the earlier point, get an inspection or view the car in person and assume that no matter what, you are dealing with someone that will take advantage of you. Condition is a subjective thing, I say a car is in excellent condition....what is my measure? My opinion, my experience?
This is a shame but I really don't think you have any recourse that would be less expensive than fixing the car the way you want it and moving on.
Best of luck, sorry to hear this happened.</div></div>

Thanks for your reply. I agree with you that our friendship was a tactic and not genuine and was used to draw me in. My wife would even tell me after getting off the phone with Danny that we talk like women. LOL It's sad but I agree. My only recourse is making people aware of this guy....the same guy that owns and runs the 1970 Chevelle site. The deleting of the all of his for sale posts speak loads of what he did and his intentions. I also know that condition is a subjective thing but covering up, lying, and deceiving is not. Thanks again for your reply.

[caj]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS4Real</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would get it fixed on move on. No car is perfect and even the very good ones need some type of maintenance if they are driven. While the seller may not have been as forthcoming as you are, nothing substitutes for an inspection by you. Sorry to hear it was not as good as you had hoped, but it can be fixed. The issues you describe don't sound all that daunting. There are lots of good restorers out there that can fix your car to your standards. I've had my car for 17 years and it was nearly perfect when I bought mine, yet I still fix or make something better every year.

I would like to hear from the other side. Sounds like a fair compromise is in order. </div></div>


Believe me Jim, I would like nothing more than Danny to come on this post and talk to everyone. I had originally offered to pay the first $1,000 towards expenses but that wasn't working for Danny. I agree, a fair compromise is in order. I have heard from members here that they have seen him lurking here today. I'm not sure how they can tell that but if he has been here, he hasn't said anything. Danny, if you see this, say something so we can work something out. Otherwise, your inactions speaks for itself.

[caj]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Don_Lightfoot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is unfortunate to read these circumstances regarding Danny. He and I have communicated over the years on the odd matter. I certainly cannot comment on the car since I don't recall seeing the &quot;for sale&quot; ad.

When I got back into the hobby in 1991 I bought a 64 GTO based on pictures only. It was a long way away in Alberta so travelling to inspect it was tough. I knew it needed a full restoration so some of the misrepresented items in the ad did not upset me too much. Also, values back then were nowhere near what they are today. I never did get back to him once I received and inspected the car. Deal was done and so be it. I restored the car and enjoyed it for a few years.

Since that time I have purchased four other Musclecars. I did personal inspections on all of them. Two of them were in Florida which was a major expense to go and see them. Each one had some issues which I learned in the inspections and others after I got them home. For me there was always things I wanted to do to the cars anyway to improve them, etc., so I didn't lose any sleep over the issues. For each of them I was happy with what I got, where I improved it and enjoyed them as well. Since I am not an investor, I was not overly worried about the money spent to improve and/or correct things as it was all about the enjoyment. At least that was my philosophy which can obviously be different than other people.

As mentioned earlier, I cannot comment on the correctness of the ad. What bothers me in today's world is a lot of manipulation in &quot;wording&quot; for a bunch of sale ads (not saying it was done in this circumstance). I can only imagine that every car that is sold needs something, some more than others. Hard to itemize all items in an ad. More times than not I would say these items would be disclosed and/or discussed in telephone conversations before the sale. From your standpoint it appears not all of this was done in this case.

From what you say Craig all the items can be addressed. If this is indeed the car you want then go ahead and fix them I guess (as was mentioned by another member previously). Once it's done then you will be happy and be able to enjoy it rather than dwell on the sale process itself. You are certainly frustrated at this time which I know will be hard to put behind you. I wish you luck and hopefully the car will turn out to be everything you wanted. </div></div>

Hi Don and thanks for your reply to this matter. I have a question for you. You mentioned that you and Danny have communicated over the years on the odd matter. Was the odd matter that you communicated with Danny the clutch problem that he was experiencing with the Challenger by any chance? If so, did he try any remedies besides just trying to adjust the clutch? Thanks, Craig

[Xplantdad]

I don't know either of these folks but I do want to remind everyone of the &quot;rule&quot; stated at the top of the For Sale section. Seems like a simple enough thing to do...&quot;to make it right-or not be able to post here any more&quot;.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> We still have the satisfaction guarantee rule. If it is yours you need to stand behind what you are selling or risk being able to post here.</div></div>

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[69LM1]

I was having a hard time with this one. So many things are subjective on these old cars, and one mans standards can be way different than another's.

The ad being deleted was my first hmmmmm moment.

However, when the OP stated that he had picture proof that the carb that he was shown pictures of on the car was not the carb that came on the car, that was a clincher for me.

To swap out ANY parts after a car is sold, for any reason, and not get buy in from the new owner is downright fraud in my book.

To the OP.... My opinion is that the clutch, seat and leaks are all items that you would have a hard time suing the seller over. Even the possible valve issues as he could say the car was fine when it left.

I would recommend that if you indeed have photo evidence of a carb swap out, and you felt it justified to go after the seller, that you use the fraud of swapping parts as the reason.

It will cost you more in stress, money and time however than just fixing the small items, even if you have to ship the car to a big city to have the work done.

I am sure the mopar guys here can point you in the right direction.

Rich

[COPO CARTEL]

Well said Bruce ....but ...why is it so hard to practice what is preached .

[Don_Lightfoot]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: caj</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Hi Don and thanks for your reply to this matter. I have a question for you. You mentioned that you and Danny have communicated over the years on the odd matter. Was the odd matter that you communicated with Danny the clutch problem that he was experiencing with the Challenger by any chance? If so, did he try any remedies besides just trying to adjust the clutch? Thanks, Craig </div></div>

It wasn't about your car Craig. Danny is a fellow Chevelle enthusiast and our communications were related to that species.

[watk69]

The only analogy I can draw is like selling a vintage watch and the customer having it tested and expecting it to keep time on par with the Naval Observatory Clock.

Its an old car, I bought a car similar high $ car, in fact an award winning car that won every award in sight 6-10 years ago that did not qualify for Legends this year due to the natural age of things getting a little bit of fuzz around the edges. When I got it, it barely ran, leaked from the valve covers and the clutch chattered. All the more reason to go delve deeper into it, brush off old tuning knowledge buried years ago, and see what makes it tick. I love smelling like old hydrocarbons when I come in from the barn at night. Makes me feel young again, and I got it running like a champ- that's my reward. You can do it!!

[caj]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 69LM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was having a hard time with this one. So many things are subjective on these old cars, and one mans standards can be way different than another's.

The ad being deleted was my first hmmmmm moment.

However, when the OP stated that he had picture proof that the carb that he was shown pictures of on the car was not the carb that came on the car, that was a clincher for me.

To swap out ANY parts after a car is sold, for any reason, and not get buy in from the new owner is downright fraud in my book.

To the OP.... My opinion is that the clutch, seat and leaks are all items that you would have a hard time suing the seller over. Even the possible valve issues as he could say the car was fine when it left.

I would recommend that if you indeed have photo evidence of a carb swap out, and you felt it justified to go after the seller, that you use the fraud of swapping parts as the reason.

It will cost you more in stress, money and time however than just fixing the small items, even if you have to ship the car to a big city to have the work done.

I am sure the mopar guys here can point you in the right direction.

Rich

</div></div>

Rich, I have the proof...that's not a problem. Danny finally admitted doing the swap after I told him I had proof and what kind of proof that I had. Before I mentioned the proof, he constantly denied it. I have proof of his reluctant admittance also. I won't sue the seller because it will cost me more in litigation than fixing the car. I'm sure he knows that too, that's why he's keeping his head buried in the sand. Also, He lives in Canada and I'm in the US without a passport which makes it hard. My only hope is these great boards and getting my word out. Maybe I can eventually get through to him that a little money is not worth your reputation and doing the right thing is always the best thing. But just the fact that I was willing to pay for the first $1,000 in repairs and he wouldn't accept that offer should tell everyone here about this guys character. I'm sure that he's getting a big chuckle out of this knowing I can't/won't sue him but that's fine....I believe in Karma.

[70 Forest Green Zee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xplantdad</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know either of these folks but I do want to remind everyone of the &quot;rule&quot; stated at the top of the For Sale section. Seems like a simple enough thing to do...&quot;to make it right-or not be able to post here any more&quot;.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> We still have the satisfaction guarantee rule. If it is yours you need to stand behind what you are selling or risk being able to post here.</div></div>

</div></div>

As usual, Bruce has hit the nail right on the head..... XXXBlackLS6M22 needs to make this right to CAJ's satisfaction or be banned from using this sight. Blatantly misrepresenting a car for sale here should just not be tolerated and Mr. Pascoe I also agree with you that a few bad apples are going to ruin it for everyone. I truly hope that Danny makes this right for everyone's sake!

[iluv69s]

I love this site..but, I am going to question the policy here...

Why when another person recently purchased a rebodied car from a member/dealer here, was NOONE permitted to add thier opinions and it was clearly stated to wait and let the seller respond..and then the thread was locked...

in this case it seems anyone is permitted to state thier opinion without the seller yet responding...

..and did the buyer get satisfaction on that rebodied car as stated in the policy here???


...just saying...

[JBALL]

Nothing was done about my rebody.

I was actually told by Charlie &quot;go find a new place to play&quot; The reason the thread was locked is simple. He is protecting his buddy.

The good news is I have met a ton of folks out of this and all of them have been willing to help in any way they can. Yes this was a setback but I'm still very thankful for all the new friends I have met here. I now know how to take a cowl off a car and look at hidden VINS now. Each show I learn something new. Thanks to the members here at SYC that have stood up for me.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iluv69s</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I love this site..but, I am going to question the policy here...

Why when another person recently purchased a rebodied car from a member/dealer here, was NOONE permitted to add thier opinions and it was clearly stated to wait and let the seller respond..and then the thread was locked...

in this case it seems anyone is permitted to state thier opinion without the seller yet responding...

..and did the buyer get satisfaction on that rebodied car as stated in the policy here???


...just saying... </div></div>

[RS_COPO_Canuck]

This guy must be more of a non-Mopar person....I don't know him. To all members looking at a Mopar near Toronto.....I would be happy to go check it out for you. I know them inside-out. Not strong on any other brand as far as stampings etc....but getting there.

So what was this car? Was it a 440-4, a Hemi - what?

[Charley Lillard]

Goodbye Jball. You had asked me to ban you but I tried to ignore it. Now you are banned like you asked. Stefano tried to work things out with you. It takes two usually to make something work. I'm tired of you accusing me of this crap. Find somewhere else for your juvenile accusations.

[Charley Lillard]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iluv69s</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I love this site..but, I am going to question the policy here...

Why when another person recently purchased a rebodied car from a member/dealer here, was NOONE permitted to add thier opinions and it was clearly stated to wait and let the seller respond..and then the thread was locked...

in this case it seems anyone is permitted to state thier opinion without the seller yet responding...

..and did the buyer get satisfaction on that rebodied car as stated in the policy here???


...just saying... </div></div>

Have you seen the seller respond ? Maybe I am waiting for him to respond before locking the thread ? Things are not all black and white only on this site. I try to keep things fair for everyone.
As for JBall..Stefano offered to get the car back to his shop, have law enforcement look at it to verify what has been done, what is legal etc and he declined.

[iluv69s]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iluv69s</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I love this site..but, I am going to question the policy here...

Why when another person recently purchased a rebodied car from a member/dealer here, was NOONE permitted to add thier opinions and it was clearly stated to wait and let the seller respond..and then the thread was locked...

in this case it seems anyone is permitted to state thier opinion without the seller yet responding...

..and did the buyer get satisfaction on that rebodied car as stated in the policy here???


...just saying... </div></div>

Have you seen the seller respond ? Maybe I am waiting for him to respond before locking the thread ? Things are not all black and white only on this site. I try to keep things fair for everyone.
As for JBall..Stefano offered to get the car back to his shop, have law enforcement look at it to verify what has been done, what is legal etc and he declined. </div></div>

Thanks for the explanation !!! The best site on the internet !!!

I have no bones in this transaction nor do I know the buyer or seller...... I hope the seller responds soon before people make opinions..and atleast let him tell his side of the story or hope he contacts the buyer atleast...good luck with the car !! how about a pic?

[TMagda]

It seems that there is just nothing, cost effective, that can be done legally. Maybe the guys at Graveyard Cars can help you with a diagnosis. They seem to be experts and have a passion for Mopars.


http://www.sportscarmarket.com/columns/legal-files/6286-the-frankenstein-mercedes-benz-280sl

[earntaz]

Charley -- couldn't agree with you more ... there is always two sides to a story. TAZ

[caj]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RS_COPO_Canuck</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Darn - Bolton is about 40 minutes away from me. This guy must be more of a non-Mopar person....I don't know him. To all members looking at a Mopar near Toronto.....I would be happy to go check it out for you. I know them inside-out. Not strong on any other brand as far as stampings etc....but getting there.

So what was this car? Was it a 440-4, a Hemi - what? </div></div>

I can't get under the Challenger but I hope to get it on a lift sometime soon. I seriously doubt that Danny swapped the tranny, Dana, or engine, but could you please tell me where I can check the VIN on the engine and transmission. Also, where is the dated code at on the Dana? I was told on the passenger side low on the engine and passenger side for the tranny. Is that correct? The pad on the top of the engine is correct. BTW...I sure wish I would have known you before I purchased the car from Danny. You could have saved me a lot of lost sleep and a major headache. Thanks, Craig Jung

[caj]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TMagda</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It seems that there is just nothing, cost effective, that can be done legally. Maybe the guys at Graveyard Cars can help you with a diagnosis. They seem to be experts and have a passion for Mopars.


http://www.sportscarmarket.com/columns/legal-files/6286-the-frankenstein-mercedes-benz-280sl </div></div>

Thank you for the valuable link. I most certainly will use them in the future. Craig

[Charley Lillard]

And now I can lock this thread. Please no more threads.

&quot;Hi Charlie,
This Person is legally causing Slander &amp; Cyber Bullying and I have hired a Defamation Lawyer to deal with this matter. This has been going on for weeks on Cuda-Challenger.com
Just to let you know that this car was not SOLD from your site.
Craig only joined your site to continue his Defamation-Slander and Cyber Bullying upon myself.
My Lawyer has advised me to post absolutely no comments on the internet as we build our case in this civil law suit and copy every comment on every web site posted by Craig.
If you want to kick me off your site that's fine but I have an outstanding record selling stuff directly from your site with no problems just review my posts.
Yours truly
Danny&quot;