1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process

[70 copo]

<span style="text-decoration: underline">I spent quite a bit of time looking into the EO mystery as presented only to be too late to get in before the lock.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">What got me thinking is three statements made about the car over at team Camaro in 2012 as follows:</span>

The Restorer said: <span style="font-weight: bold">&quot;At the time of the appraisal we looked there and behind a door panel and both places looked silver&quot;.

&quot;Later on after tearing the vinyl top off it looked more reddish silver (look at the photo earlier in the post) but i didn't think much of it&quot;.

&quot;Then after getting the story from Clem i started to look harder, and found the color under the tar on top of the saddle bag area, on the wiper transmission, on the front inside edge of the fender's, on the heads of some of the door hinge bolts, and on the tail pan underneath the bondo&quot;. </span>

A person replying said: <span style="font-weight: bold">&quot;Whatever you found on the wiper transmission is not original. Was installed after paint; never had overspray&quot;.</span>

Another person then replied: <span style="font-weight: bold">&quot;Brad - understand your dilemma. Any chance that the car was resprayed Evening Orchid over the Cortez Silver soon after delivery, hence why original owner may have thought it was EO from the Dealership? Would also explain why no EO under roofrail w/strips, and the overspray on the wiper trans arms&quot;....</span>
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____

With a picture of the car I consulted with two Norwood Production Superintendents that were in plant in 1969:


<span style="font-weight: bold">First up Fisher Body</span>



Q: Tell Me about special paint cars?

A. We hated them a real pain in the ass to build.

Q. Why?

A. All of our in plant chemistry was engineered, meaning primers were designed to work for color match with approved sourced paints. Anything else was out in the wild.

Q Can you expand on that?

A. Yea, the SP cars usually used Jobber grade paint that was locally sourced. Complicating matters was that it was a pot job, which interrupted the normal function of the line and with Union classification was normally done with ARO's. Two guys - one on the right and one on the left hand spraying the paint -- dragging pots.

Q What about color match?

A. Most of the time one side of the car did not match the other especially with the lighter colors. One guy would spray it light, the other guy would spray it heavy, coverage and paint color was dependent on how the paint worked with the primer. Some better some not so good. There was no chemistry validation... . In a production setting we relied on engineered processes that confidence was not there all the time on a SP job.

Q. Who mixed/tinted the paint?

A Paint shop. Color chips by eye or we could get it premixed by a local jobber.


<span style="font-weight: bold">Next Chevrolet Chassis side</span>

Q: Tell Me about special paint cars?

A. Pain in the ass.

Q. Why?

A. Sheetmetal match was nearly impossible.

Q how did you build them?

A. Sheetmetal was specified install in primer.

Q So the front end met the car in Primer?

A. Yes and built out on the final line in primer.

Q. How was the car finished?

A. Car was sent to AGR where the trim was removed from the front end to the fullest extent practicable, and then the paint Fisher left in the trunk was used to match the front end in. This was again a problem as we had to match Fisher's Primer to get the top coat to match and often they forgot to give us the primer. Remember we were two separate divisions then. Next was the oven where we did the best we could to get reflow and a gloss match but there was only so much we could do. These paint jobs were often terrible with high customer dissatisfaction.

Q. What about overspray in areas under the hood- at AGR?

A. Sure. Think Earl Sheib quality. The hood was popped to get the edges..so yes they taped it off the best they could but these were done very fast.

Q. Did the AGR Process change much through the years?

A. A bit when we switched to Towveyor, but we still painted cars in AGR one after the other right up to close of the plant.

Conclusion:

<span style="text-decoration: underline">The Picture Below is AGR in 1982. In this case I believe William and Jerry saw a bad quality paint job. I believe Clem and his wife were the recipients of a bad quality paint job that was likely a bit on the light side. I believe all parties have acted in good faith and the recollections of these two workers place this situation in proper prospective. The car in question was EO just a light EQ and poorly mixed, poorly matched, and perhaps on the inconsistent side in coloration to boot. The wiper transmission overspray as reported by the restorer is consistent with an AGR front end paint job</span>

[m22mike]

Thanks Phil, very interesting. Never picked up on the wiper trans OS when reading those older threads.

Mike

[Mr70]

Awesome research,but I'm confused about these quotes vs. what you followed up with.

~Restorer:&quot;Then after getting the story from Clem i started to look harder,and found the color under the tar on top of the saddle bag area,on the wiper transmission,on the front inside edge of the fender's,on the heads of some of the door hinge bolts,and on the tail pan underneath the bondo&quot;.

~Team Camaro:&quot;Whatever you found on the wiper transmission is not original.Was installed after paint; never had overspray&quot;.

~Phil:&quot;The wiper transmission overspray as reported by the restorer is consistent with an AGR front end paint job.&quot;

So was the wiper transmission installed before or after they painted it?

[70 copo]

Rick,

Trying to abide as to Charley's wishes to the fullest extent that I can. He does not want this thread going full retard like the last one did.

[clem]

I hope the people who believe the car was painted EO at the dealer as mrs clem worked there are not allowed to vote in our elections as they are certifiably nuts. I can not understand why the experts can not admit they made a mistake after all the evidence came out.

[firstgenaddict]

I know in the past I have spoken in absolutes on the wiper transmission issue... I was wrong.

Thanks for taking the time to do the research on this Phil.

To answer Mr70

The wiper transmission was installed on cars by fisher was after the body was painted, however in the case of SPL Paint the front ends were installed as fully assembled primed units then in repair booth they were stripped of trim to a practical point taped and painted reassembled and finished.

Normally we say as an absolute that over spray on a wiper transmission would not have happened at the factory as this goes to show you, the only absolute is there are no absolutes.

[70 copo]

Correct... Rick I did not answer in detail as I was diving to the store.

[Mr70]

OK,that makes sense.
..to both of you. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[Rick99]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hope the people who believe the car was painted EO at the dealer as mrs clem worked there are not allowed to vote in our elections as they are certifiably nuts. I can not understand why the experts can not admit they made a mistake after all the evidence came out. </div></div>

Here we go again. Can we please keep this topic about the special paint procedure and keep the hate out of it. I too have a -B paint code car and I would like this tread to stay open so I can learn more.

[wagonman]

I'm still a lover of EO..

Being an early 60's car fan and the significance of it being an SS only color at the time ads to my opened sense of taste.

I would love to have a 1965 Nova SS 327 300 HP speed EO car.

So..... with that said.....

Do we have more lovers or haters at this point?

Oh by the way... My vote counts as two!

[Mark_C]

Jeez Phil. Didn't we just here in the thread that shall not be named you had never met anyone who had painted a car at the factory with a paint pot? Now all of a sudden its normal practice for special order paint. Selective memory, or pot stirring.

[Charley Lillard]

Clem please give it a break....

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark_C</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jeez Phil. Didn't we just here in the thread that shall not be named you had never met anyone who had painted a car at the factory with a paint pot? Now all of a sudden its normal practice for special order paint. Selective memory, or pot stirring. </div></div>

Mark,

Here is what I said in the now locked thread:

William,

Have you ever met a guy from the Fisher Body division at Norwood who sprayed out of a paint pot?

This was a question to stimulate intelligent discussion. My questions were ignored.

[SPEEDYB]

Thank you, great info <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/youguysrock.gif

[shor]

Phil, thank you for sharing all of your research, both on the forums and at the shows.

[iluv69s]

Just goes to show that never say never w/these old cars !! I remember seeing judges at the Camaro Nationals arguing over which way the alternator brackets went on a 67 Z... for many years they never made a Z-28 vert either !! Neat info !!!

[bergy]

Thanks for getting input from the guys who were at the plant Phil.

[DW31S]

Very interesting to say the least. This info confirms some of the stuff I posted in the other thread. My old Buick with special paint was one of the worst factory applied paint jobs I've ever seen; now I know how and why. Also confirms the overspray I spoke of, and the good possibility of a mis-match. So the front clip was installed by the time it went in for the spray, but without color?!? The front end on that GS REALLY didn't match, but maybe some special paint cars do.....they just might not match side to side! Great information to say the least. Thanks for digging it up and posting!!!
I hope (also like I said in the other post) that all involved can take a breather and look at this stuff a little more open-minded. Things were WAY different back then in the car business.......

[68l30]

The one concept I like to preach in this hobby is EVOLUTION. It is constantly changing and for the better. What was once considered a fantastic and correct restoration is now average or even considered a custom. With the knowledge we have on part numbers, castings, date ranges and now more technical aspects such as processes and procedures the pool of information is vast. Things change as new information and documents are brought to light. A lot of what was believed to be correct has been debunked, or at the vary least proven to have multiple variations. We can all learn a lot more moving forward by keeping an open mind. Remember when undercarriages were all black, COPO's didn't exist and they never ever made 427 Chevelles.... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif

Thanks Phil for understanding and using the resources at hand to dig a bit deeper... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/worship.gif

BIG

[cook_dw]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: firstgenaddict</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know in the past I have spoken in absolutes on the wiper transmission issue... I was wrong.

Thanks for taking the time to do the research on this Phil.

To answer Mr70

The wiper transmission was installed on cars by fisher was after the body was painted, however in the case of SPL Paint the front ends were installed as fully assembled primed units then in repair booth they were stripped of trim to a practical point taped and painted reassembled and finished.

Normally we say as an absolute that over spray on a wiper transmission would not have happened at the factory as this goes to show you, the only absolute is there are no absolutes.
</div></div>


Just trying to learn and understand. When they added the striping on say a Z were those done off line as well or in Chevrolets paint booth? Why or how would paint get on the wiper trans unless they forgot to spray the cowl area on the fisher side? Just trying to determine how overspray ended up on the wiper trans in one spot on my 68 Z. LOS car also..

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s649/cook_dw/1968%20Matador%20Red%20302%20Camaro/DSC03644_zps2d2566ff.jpg (http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/cook_dw/media/1968%20Matador%20Red%20302%20Camaro/DSC03644_zps2d2566ff.jpg.html)

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s649/cook_dw/1968%20Matador%20Red%20302%20Camaro/DSC03643_zps889ec93f.jpg (http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/cook_dw/media/1968%20Matador%20Red%20302%20Camaro/DSC03643_zps889ec93f.jpg.html)

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s649/cook_dw/1968%20Matador%20Red%20302%20Camaro/DSC02378_zps7d9a8849.jpg (http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/cook_dw/media/1968%20Matador%20Red%20302%20Camaro/DSC02378_zps7d9a8849.jpg.html)

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s649/cook_dw/1968%20Matador%20Red%20302%20Camaro/DSC02379_zpsf2c95d2b.jpg (http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/cook_dw/media/1968%20Matador%20Red%20302%20Camaro/DSC02379_zpsf2c95d2b.jpg.html)

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s649/cook_dw/1968%20Matador%20Red%20302%20Camaro/DSC02380_zps9e5c3a82.jpg (http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/cook_dw/media/1968%20Matador%20Red%20302%20Camaro/DSC02380_zps9e5c3a82.jpg.html)

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s649/cook_dw/1968%20Matador%20Red%20302%20Camaro/DSC02391_zps278f1cc1.jpg (http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/cook_dw/media/1968%20Matador%20Red%20302%20Camaro/DSC02391_zps278f1cc1.jpg.html)

[70 copo]

Darrell,

Anything I could add is speculation, however LA was already TOWVEYOR for assembly so just like 1982 at NOR if the car was touched up at AGR then blending operations would likely be subject to the same kinds of human issues. In this case the potential for a paint blending operation at the factory where the masking portion of the element was less than adequate.

[Mark_C]

Cowl area was painted stripe color on a Z28 by fisher on their side of the plant (at Norwood) when they painted the cowl vent, trunk and spoiler stripes. wiper transmission was installed by Chevy on their side (at Norwood) and should never have paint on them (special paint color cars possibly excluded), unless there was a repair done to the paint after the car was finished (or at least the wipers were installed). Also note that GMs paint specifications called for the inner area of the wiper well to be blacked out after the cowl area was painted white so the wipers arms would be less noticable, and that most cars never had that done to them.

Please note that this thread is discussing NON-standard paint color cars only, not special paint instruction cars which is probably what 99% of the - - tag cars were.

[novadude]

Thanks to the OP for posting this. It's always interesting to learn how things were really done in production.

[firstgenaddict]

If I am not mistaken the wiper cowls were striped at Fisher at the same time the deck was striped. HOWEVER given the information Phil has uncovered I would (IF POSSIBLE)check to see if there is a variation in original stripe color front to rear... if so I would venture to guess the possibility exists that the wiper cowl was repainted to match the hood stripes in the touch-up booth.

FWIW The stripe color front to rear looked off on the original paint black RS/Z, not by much but my opinion was the front looked like Ermine and the rear like Dover. The Wiper cowl stripe color match matters less on a Cowl Hood car than a flat hood because of the way the hood overhangs the wiper cowl.

[cook_dw]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Darrell,

Anything I could add is speculation, however LA was already TOWVEYOR for assembly so just like 1982 at NOR if the car was touched up at AGR then blending operations would likely be subject to the same kinds of human issues. In this case the potential for a paint blending operation at the factory where the masking portion of the element was less than adequate. </div></div>


Thanks.

[cook_dw]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: firstgenaddict</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I am not mistaken the wiper cowls were striped at Fisher at the same time the deck was striped. HOWEVER given the information Phil has uncovered I would (IF POSSIBLE)check to see if there is a variation in original stripe color front to rear... if so I would venture to guess the possibility exists that the wiper cowl was repainted to match the hood stripes in the touch-up booth.

FWIW The stripe color front to rear looked off on the original paint black RS/Z, not by much but my opinion was the front looked like Ermine and the rear like Dover. The Wiper cowl stripe color match matters less on a Cowl Hood car than a flat hood because of the way the hood overhangs the wiper cowl. </div></div>

Good points.

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Clem please give it a break.... </div></div> no matter what people post here it is all opinion or speculation and I have and know the facts on my Z/28.

[clem]

people who have never ordered a new special paint car and had it delivered to the dealership should not be posting about what and how it happens.

[cook_dw]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">people who have never ordered a new special paint car and had it delivered to the dealership should not be posting about what and how it happens. </div></div>

Im sorry Clem but what does ordering a special paint car have to do with how the procedures were done at the plant during the production. The comments provided above are from people that have talked with plant workers or were in engineering from GM when the cars were new.. That to me are 2 totally different aspects.. Just because you ordered a car doesnt mean you knew how it was assembled in a production setting unless you were there on the line when the car was coming down..

Chill out a little.. We are all here to learn (or at least I know I am).

[firstgenaddict]

There has been more relevant information brought forth in a few posts here than in 100 pages of other threads... can everyone please refrain from personal jabs I'd like to keep this one open and figure out some more information.

[Tenney]

[/quote] no matter what people post here it is all opinion or speculation and I have and know the facts on my Z/28. [/quote]

That's the great thing right, Clem? And good of you to share your experience - look forward to hearing about your other cool cars!

Keith Seymore posted some excellent, experienced-based, info on the special paint process earlier, btw.

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tenney</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[/quote] no matter what people post here it is all opinion or speculation and I have and know the facts on my Z/28. </div></div>

That's the great thing, right? And good of you to share your experience - look forward to hearing about your other cool cars! [/quote] that is what is p-----g me off people keep telling me what I had or did not have or why it was possible or not possible.

[MailOrderMotion]

I agree. Thank you Phil for all of the research you do, the information is priceless. The guys who worked there are getting up in years, soon this information will be lost forever.

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cook_dw</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">people who have never ordered a new special paint car and had it delivered to the dealership should not be posting about what and how it happens. </div></div>

Im sorry Clem but what does ordering a special paint car have to do with how the procedures were done at the plant during the production. The comments provided above are from people that have talked with plant workers or were in engineering from GM when the cars were new.. That to me are 2 totally different aspects.. Just because you ordered a car doesnt mean you knew how it was assembled in a production setting unless you were there on the line when the car was coming down..

Chill out a little.. We are all here to learn (or at least I know I am).

</div></div>someone said there should be no paint on the wiper parts and since the restorer said there was EO there it had to be a dealer repaint. everything you read here is not gospel. there are too many opinions and little facts

[Keith Seymore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SPEEDYB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you, great info <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/youguysrock.gif </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Phil, thank you for sharing all of your research, both on the forums and at the shows. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for getting input from the guys who were at the plant Phil. </div></div>

x1000. Thanks, Phil, for running that down and writing it up.

There is one thing we know for sure: special paint cars were in a pain in the ass...

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif

K

[novadude]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith Seymore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is one thing we know for sure: special paint cars were in a pain in the ass...

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif

K
</div></div>

Apparently not only in production - still a PITA on automotive forums 46 yrs later! LOL

[clem]

There is one thing we know for sure: special paint cars were in a pain in the ass...

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif

K
[/quote] and GM only charged $15 to $25

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: novadude</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith Seymore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is one thing we know for sure: special paint cars were in a pain in the ass...

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif

K
</div></div>

Apparently not only in production - still a PITA on automotive forums 46 yrs later! LOL </div></div>only if you believe the self appointed experts and not the original owner. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/laugh.gif

[firstgenaddict]

I am the one who stated the wiper transmission over spray absolute... I have also stated I was wrong that the only absolute is there are no absolutes. The wiper transmission was installed after the body was painted so barring touch up or mismatch they should not have over spray.
Previously no one had the information that front ends on special paint cars were installed primed and then de-trimmed and painted. This formerly unknown process was brought to light through this thread, yes the discussion was spurred by your vehicle however before this information was brought to light the only known way to have paint on the wiper transmission was a dealer touch up or repaint.

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tenney</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[/quote] no matter what people post here it is all opinion or speculation and I have and know the facts on my Z/28. </div></div>

That's the great thing right, Clem? And good of you to share your experience - look forward to hearing about your other cool cars!

Keith Seymore posted some excellent, experienced-based, info on the special paint process earlier, btw. [/quote]how about a 74 chevy pickup with a 482 cu inch BBC with aluminum heads, headers,corvette cam,850 holley and a 400 turbo with 3.70 gears that would scare the hell out of corvettes. used to street race them with dirt bikes or a snowmobile in the bed for traction. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/laugh.gif had 2 22 gallon fuel tanks because it need them.

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: firstgenaddict</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am the one who stated the wiper transmission over spray absolute... I have also stated I was wrong that the only absolute is there are no absolutes. The wiper transmission was installed after the body was painted so barring touch up or mismatch they should not have over spray.
Previously no one had the information that front ends on special paint cars were installed primed and then de-trimmed and painted. This formerly unknown process was brought to light through this thread, yes the discussion was spurred by your vehicle however before this information was brought to light the only known way to have paint on the wiper transmission was a dealer touch up or repaint. </div></div>I don't fault you I fault the people who after plenty of info refuse to admit they made a mistake on what they saw.

[Woj]

Phil,

Thanks for all y,our information on this subject.

At our Chevelle show this past weekend, we had a gent there that worked on the Baltimore assembly line for decades. He did numerous jobs to include, assembly, supply and paint. His insight and knowledge were incredible. He brought, tools, pictures and clothing from the line. He talked about problems on the assembly line and how they were solved. Worker turnover was very high. For every 100 GM would hire, only 5 would last within a week or so. It was grueling work and the line rarely stopped. Plenty of mistakes were made during the assembly process.

He remembers the COPO cars and other special oddball orders. He said there were approximately 50 build sheets per car for all the components (two Baltimore cars and I have none), normal procedure was to throw them away when done. If you find one folded up under the dash, that car had an assembly problem that had to be fixed off the line and the defect was noted or circled on the build sheet.

I know this wasn't a Norwood rep, but I'm guessing the production environment was similar. His time on the paint line was short. He said it was miserable. They had to cover their faces with Vaseline and the bottom of their boots with grease to keep their masks from sticking to their faces and boots from sticking to the floor.

Phil Woj.

[cook_dw]

Ok Clem.. Enough is enough.. Opinions are not gonna change on either side.. Time to let it go..

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tenney</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[/quote] no matter what people post here it is all opinion or speculation and I have and know the facts on my Z/28. </div></div>

That's the great thing right, Clem? And good of you to share your experience - look forward to hearing about your other cool cars!

Keith Seymore posted some excellent, experienced-based, info on the special paint process earlier, btw. [/quote]how about a new 53 chevy 6 with a 261 truck block,dual csrbs and exhaust,cam and dual point ignition. had lots of fun blowing off the 54 v-8 fords with their new OHV v-8

[Mr70]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Woj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...His time on the paint line was short.He said it was miserable. They had to cover their faces with Vaseline and the bottom of their boots with grease to keep their masks from sticking to their faces and boots from sticking to the floor.</div></div>

I was just thinking about this.
Think about that,you're working for one of the 3 largest vehicle assemblers in the world @ that time.Painting them as well with lead based paint all day had to be one of the most undesirable environments in the world back then.

[Schonyenko2]

I hesitate to add this (no dog in the fight either way) On the -- 69 huggar orange nova we restored for Alan Forman, it had a redish/pink card wedged in between the heater box, and floor board that said it needed to go to the repair area. It was hard to read, but pnt could be made out. The car had lots of overspray on the inside.

We had the same thing with the painters at the plant I worked in before they went to full air suits. Vasaline all over their faces and extremities. Better to be a welder. :-)

[firstgenaddict]

LOL I painted a couple of 18 wheeler moving van trailers we bought 55 gallon drums of white paint... everything I had was white misted for years.

[Verne_Frantz]

I think we need to remember that any so-called experts on any type of car probably never worked at the plants when they were built. Their knowledge is accumulated from viewing lots of original cars and taking diligent notes. Their knowledge tends to reflect typical production. When an anomaly comes along, they need to be open minded and willing to learn that some strange things do happen at the plants that do not conform to what might be expected.
As an &quot;expert&quot;, they must be open to learning new things, rather than feeling they already &quot;know it all&quot;. There's a big difference between 30 years experience and one years experience 30 times.

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Woj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Phil,

Thanks for all y,our information on this subject.

At our Chevelle show this past weekend, we had a gent there that worked on the Baltimore assembly line for decades. He did numerous jobs to include, assembly, supply and paint. His insight and knowledge were incredible. He brought, tools, pictures and clothing from the line. He talked about problems on the assembly line and how they were solved. Worker turnover was very high. For every 100 GM would hire, only 5 would last within a week or so. It was grueling work and the line rarely stopped. Plenty of mistakes were made during the assembly process.

He remembers the COPO cars and other special oddball orders. He said there were approximately 50 build sheets per car for all the components (two Baltimore cars and I have none), normal procedure was to throw them away when done. If you find one folded up under the dash, that car had an assembly problem that had to be fixed off the line and the defect was noted or circled on the build sheet.

I know this wasn't a Norwood rep, but I'm guessing the production environment was similar. His time on the paint line was short. He said it was miserable. They had to cover their faces with Vaseline and the bottom of their boots with grease to keep their masks from sticking to their faces and boots from sticking to the floor.



Phil Woj.
</div></div>

Phil,

Norwood was pretty much the same. I am very glad that you reached out to a worker from Baltimore.... Did you know that Walt Gregonis left Norwood and went on to manage Baltimore Assembly?

[SS427]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Verne_Frantz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think we need to remember that any so-called experts on any type of car probably never worked at the plants when they were built. Their knowledge is accumulated from viewing lots of original cars and taking diligent notes. Their knowledge tends to reflect typical production. When an anomaly comes along, they need to be open minded and willing to learn that some strange things do happen at the plants that do not conform to what might be expected.
As an &quot;expert&quot;, they must be open to learning new things, rather than feeling they already &quot;know it all&quot;. There's a big difference between 30 years experience and one years experience 30 times.

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif </div></div>

Amen!!!! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[clem]

this site is to be about the preservation of camaros and I saved a rare Z/28 from being lost forever because the experts did not know what to look for and all I get is static and the experts are praised.

[Keith Seymore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">how about a 74 chevy pickup with a 482 cu inch BBC with aluminum heads, headers,corvette cam,850 holley and a 400 turbo with 3.70 gears that would scare the hell out of corvettes. used to street race them with dirt bikes or a snowmobile in the bed for traction. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/laugh.gif had 2 22 gallon fuel tanks because it need them. </div></div>

No doubt; you speaking of scaring Corvettes reminds me of this. Ours was an '85 stepside with an all aluminum 454, TH400, 9.5 ring gear rear axle drilled for 5 hole 5&quot; bolt circle. Best ET was 10.71 (see &quot;Is it True?&quot; below).

K

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/img093.jpg

[cook_dw]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this site is to be about the preservation of camaros and I saved a rare Z/28 from being lost forever because the experts did not know what to look for and all I get is static and the experts are praised. </div></div>


OMG.... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/no.gif

I give up..

[Keith Seymore]

*deleted *

[watk69]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cook_dw</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this site is to be about the preservation of camaros and I saved a rare Z/28 from being lost forever because the experts did not know what to look for and all I get is static and the experts are praised. </div></div>


OMG.... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/no.gif

I give up.. </div></div>





Lord please take us all now.....LOL

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Verne_Frantz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think we need to remember that any so-called experts on any type of car probably never worked at the plants when they were built. Their knowledge is accumulated from viewing lots of original cars and taking diligent notes. Their knowledge tends to reflect typical production. When an anomaly comes along, they need to be open minded and willing to learn that some strange things do happen at the plants that do not conform to what might be expected.
As an &quot;expert&quot;, they must be open to learning new things, rather than feeling they already &quot;know it all&quot;. There's a big difference between 30 years experience and one years experience 30 times.

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif </div></div>the trouble is if there is $$$ involved they don't want to learn about the anomalies as it could hurt their bottom line. you got the same thing over on the NCRS people who make the $$$ from the hobby make the rules

[novadude]

What's really funny to me about all of this, is all the emotion surrounding original numbers, authenticating factory details, etc. While I can appreciate preserving a piece of history, I think too many people get caught up in it and forget about why the car was made in the first place.

It's a lot more fun to wind up the 302 and powershift 2nd gear than it is to agonize over whether the 45 yr old paint on the cowl was silver or purple. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: novadude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What's really funny to me about all of this, is all the emotion surrounding original numbers, authenticating factory details, etc. While I can appreciate preserving a piece of history, I think too many people get caught up in it and forget about why the car was made in the first place.

It's a lot more fun to wind up the 302 and powershift 2nd gear than it is to agonize over whether the 45 yr old paint on the cowl was silver or purple. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif </div></div> Good point. This topic has drifted to the ridiculas.

[markinnaples]

I think if any one of us was put in Clem's place, they would have been insulted.

Basically, people were calling him and the other people who claimed it was EO from the beginning, liars.

No one likes to be called a liar, so cut him some slack because any of us would have felt the same way.

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: markinnaples</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think if any one of us was put in Clem's place, they would have been insulted.

Basically, people were calling him and the other people who claimed it was EO from the beginning, liars.

No one likes to be called a liar, so cut him some slack because any of us would have felt the same way. </div></div>thank you as it amazes me people just take someone else word who have no knowledge of the car.

[earntaz]

OK sports fans -- this horse has been beat to death ...

[rts]

Omg!!!
All right already!!
Does anyone have something more interesting about cars to talk about???

[bkhpah]

I know Clem, and he is a great guy that has accomplished many things most of us only dream about. He has owned many amazing cars over his lifetime. When the OE or -B or whatever you like to call it, was found, Clem had no idea. He was contacted well after the fact, and to think he still retained paperwork for the car is equally amazing. In fairness to William and JM, I doubt the last thing they ever expected to see is a purple Camaro, who would. The code - B would seem to indicate the car was a stripe delete car since it was determined by them it was Cortez Silver. Now the car and its story lands on team Camaro where I saw it. I immediately knew it was Clem's car, the infamous purple Z/28. When Clem came on board and told the world it was not silver, it was ordered EO, the thread blew up. He was called out, and the theories flew wildly. Everything form Clem didn't know what color HIS car was, to Grabiaks themselves painted the car OE behind his back in some cases. Even after Clem and Sam Grabiak wrote letters about the car, it was still in many peoples mind, silver, after all thats what the report said. I saw all kinds of derogatory comments made by both sides. I never doubted the car was what it was, why would Clem even fabricate such a story? He has no stake in the car anymore. He told his side of the story, and for that he was raked over the coals. To me its over, and the bottom line the car is purple, what shade of purple and just how well GM painted the car is another story. Clem ordered a OE Z/28 and that is exactly what he received to the best of his knowledge...BKH

[70 copo]

Who wants to join the Norwood retirees on a tour on the LGR tour?

Where the gen 1,2 and 3 guys meet the Gen 6 guys face to face on the assembly lines?

If there is interest here I can start a seperate event thread.

[watk69]

^^^ Best, most concise written explanation to date that almost anyone can digest, now if Clem could just calm down, and cut the <span style="text-decoration: underline">readership</span> some slack here, that would be great! We're all car lovers and gearheads here.

[kwhizz]

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/kwhizz/kwhizz002/Camaro%20Flathead.jpg

[Rick99]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: markinnaples</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think if any one of us was put in Clem's place, they would have been insulted.

Basically, people were calling him and the other people who claimed it was EO from the beginning, liars.

No one likes to be called a liar, so cut him some slack because any of us would have felt the same way. </div></div>

Your wrong. If I were in Clems place I would of stated the facts and left them at that. If people don't want to believe me or call me a liar that fine. Everyone is entitled to there own opinion. I would know deep down inside I was telling the truth and that's all that matters. I wouldn't get on here and act like a third grader with all the name calling. To me someone that goes to that far has something to hide. Clem did the same thing over at TC and CRG. He just wouldn't shut up. I love hearing about the cars and the paint process. But I'm sick and tired of hearing from Clem. Maybe it's time he gets another tread shut down.

[markinnaples]

Rick99, sorry, I only know what I've seen on this thread, and based on that, I think &quot;you're&quot; wrong, but that's all I will say as I have no dog in this fight. I was only basing my opinion on this thread and don't want to get into any ****ing matches with anyone. Cheers everyone.

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rick99</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: markinnaples</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think if any one of us was put in Clem's place, they would have been insulted.

Basically, people were calling him and the other people who claimed it was EO from the beginning, liars.

No one likes to be called a liar, so cut him some slack because any of us would have felt the same way. </div></div>

Your wrong. If I were in Clems place I would of stated the facts and left them at that. If people don't want to believe me or call me a liar that fine. Everyone is entitled to there own opinion. I would know deep down inside I was telling the truth and that's all that matters. I wouldn't get on here and act like a third grader with all the name calling. To me someone that goes to that far has something to hide. Clem did the same thing over at TC and CRG. He just wouldn't shut up. I love hearing about the cars and the paint process. But I'm sick and tired of hearing from Clem. Maybe it's time he gets another tread shut down. </div></div>I believe there is something you can do on your computer that my posts will not show up show why don't you do that???

[70 copo]

Clem,

Please just do not take the bait. This thread is going partisan. Based upon what I see on another site (where I happen to be Banned) there are posters there that are also posting here and I see a pattern as we are being cattle herded to a thread lock.

Lets not do that ok?

Phil Borris

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Clem,

Please just do not take the bait. This thread is going partisan. Based upon what I see on another site (where I happen to be Banned) there are posters there that are also posting here and I see a pattern as we are being cattle herded to a thread lock.

Lets not do that ok?

Phil Borris

</div></div>he seemed to be having problems with what showed up on his computer so I was just giving him some help with his computer problems. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/laugh.gif

[Mark_C]

Maybe if everyone stayed on topic and quit reiterating a subject that 99.8 percent of us don't give a S### about useful information could be passed around and we would all learn something, instead of suceeding in getting two threads locked down in 24 hours. Everyone has said their piece about what they saw, what they ordered, who's friends with who, who's better than who, lets quit the arguing, man up and drop that part of the subject.

[PeteLeathersac]

** INTERMISSION TIME **

Click below for the Intermission Movie, brought to you by your friends at Chevrolet.
Enjoy the new for '66 General Motors A-Bodies...including Cutlass and Tempest in Special Paint!
Anybody else miss cage dancers too?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pTYWPndNbgc

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[clem]

hey pete I see you race vintage snowmobiles. back in the day,1960s i drag raced alky burning Rupps. my last sled was a water cooled Rupp that had the rad in front of the rider. what sled do you race ???

[Tenney]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">back in the day,1960s i drag raced alky burning Rupps.</div></div>

440?

[Charley Lillard]

Clem.....you have managed to take a thread about paint process and trash it all by yourself. I asked you to chill out but you keep babbling on about this. This is the last time I am going to ask you to drop it.

[DW31S]

About the video, is it me, or was the '66 Olds a shade of (almost hate to say it) Purple? However, the sky also seemed to cast a Purple-ish hue, as did some of the actors skin! Suffice to say that lighting, angles of light, age, etc., can change how a color is perceived.
Now back to the EO Camaro.....I'm guessing (have no cold hard facts to support my theory) that the primer used on Clem's Special Order Camaro could/would have been something other than Red Oxide or Black. That EO metallic would be much easier to spray (back to spray in a second) over a lighter primer than a darker. Is that a feasible thought? And the first two shots of the door panel being peeled back show two distinctly hidden colors.....one a shade of Purple and the other a shade of Grey. Could the unusual light primer (if in fact it was an out-sourced product that has been stated by an ex-assembly line worker) and some metallic overspray &quot;created&quot; a color mimicking Silver? We now know the the Special Paint cars received a substandard and out-of-the-norm paint job with a product likely obtained from an outside vendor and that color &quot;could&quot; have been mixed BY EYE to a 1&quot; long paint chip. And then the front clip was painted by DIFFERENT painters in a DIFFERENT area under DIFFERENT conditions.
My point here is that with so many variables and the 47 (car built in 1968) year time span, how can there really be a 100% definitive conclusion? I don't think anyone involved here thinks that they themselves are wrong, and frankly, there may be some validity to their strong-willed opinion. Guys and gals, let's stop the mud slinging and childish rants and get back to the real reason we are united here.....we aren't gonna sing Kumbaya (sp.) around the campfire, but it is so counterproductive to cast negative slurs to one another......this is supposed to be fun!!!

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tenney</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">back in the day,1960s i drag raced alky burning Rupps.</div></div>

440? </div></div>440 nitro

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Clem.....you have managed to take a thread about paint process and trash it all by yourself. I asked you to chill out but you keep babbling on about this. This is the last time I am going to ask you to drop it. </div></div> I have not started any new posts about my car. I have only replied to other people posts. if not for my car this thread about the paint process may not have been started

[Lynn]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DW31S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys and gals, let's stop the mud slinging and childish rants and get back to the real reason we are united here..... it is so counterproductive to cast negative slurs to one another......this is supposed to be fun!!! </div></div>

Exactly.

Everyone just needs to take a step back here.

We need all the different sources of information, and objective looks at each source.

I greatly appreciate the input from retired workers. Likewise, the recollection of an owner AND the observation of MANY cars over the years is valuable; as is GM documentation. They are all pieces of the puzzle.

Clem can’t understand why notarized statements of events from 46 years ago doesn’t result in a “closed case”. Sadly, it doesn’t. Not because of Clem, Clem’s integrity, or any thing else having to do with someone’s honesty. Memories fade. I can’t tell you how many times I have thought something happened a certain way and was corrected by a brother, a high school friend, or whatever. I AM NOT SAYING CATEGORICALLY THAT CLEM IS WRONG.

I have seen notarized statements from owners and dealers that turned out to be absolutely false. I can’t think of ONE where I believed the person making the statement was intentionally lying. They simply made mistakes. So, we have become skeptical of the notarized statements. Does that mean all of them are useless? Not at all. They are a piece of the puzzle.

Lastly, check the ego at the door. It gets in the way. We all have something to learn. When the obvious point of a post is to prove you are right, or how much you know, you aren’t likely going to be contributing in any meaningful way.

I spend more time on this site than any other car site. Why? Because I learn from some of the best. Because NORMALLY, we can agree to disagree, or at least disagree civilly.

[rts]

Well said!!!
I think that said every thing needed to be said, so now hopefully we can get back to the learning and the real reason I cant stop looking at this site!!

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lynn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DW31S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys and gals, let's stop the mud slinging and childish rants and get back to the real reason we are united here..... it is so counterproductive to cast negative slurs to one another......this is supposed to be fun!!! </div></div>

Exactly.

Everyone just needs to take a step back here.

We need all the different sources of information, and objective looks at each source.

I greatly appreciate the input from retired workers. Likewise, the recollection of an owner AND the observation of MANY cars over the years is valuable; as is GM documentation. They are all pieces of the puzzle.

Clem can’t understand why notarized statements of events from 46 years ago doesn’t result in a “closed case”. Sadly, it doesn’t. Not because of Clem, Clem’s integrity, or any thing else having to do with someone’s honesty. Memories fade. I can’t tell you how many times I have thought something happened a certain way and was corrected by a brother, a high school friend, or whatever. I AM NOT SAYING CATEGORICALLY THAT CLEM IS WRONG.

I have seen notarized statements from owners and dealers that turned out to be absolutely false. I can’t think of ONE where I believed the person making the statement was intentionally lying. They simply made mistakes. So, we have become skeptical of the notarized statements. Does that mean all of them are useless? Not at all. They are a piece of the puzzle.

Lastly, check the ego at the door. It gets in the way. We all have something to learn. When the obvious point of a post is to prove you are right, or how much you know, you aren’t likely going to be contributing in any meaningful way.

I spend more time on this site than any other car site. Why? Because I learn from some of the best. Because NORMALLY, we can agree to disagree, or at least disagree civilly. </div></div>


Lynn,

At the risk of portraying you as someone who is trying to have it both ways, I am a bit confused.

At what point is enough eyewitness testimony enough? Just wondering since the biggest hurdle these days seems to be in reaching technical agreement on a revision to a topic when another group has a hard and fast position already established.

In this case it seems no amount of first hand evidence will convince everyone... Which then logically follows: Is there a better way to communicate new information and discoveries to the hobby in general?

[clem]

a lesson to be learned here is run the VIN thru goggle when you are looking to buy a car. if brad had done this first this whole episode would be moot as my post of the VIN was there.

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lynn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DW31S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys and gals, let's stop the mud slinging and childish rants and get back to the real reason we are united here..... it is so counterproductive to cast negative slurs to one another......this is supposed to be fun!!! </div></div>

Exactly.

Everyone just needs to take a step back here.

We need all the different sources of information, and objective looks at each source.

I greatly appreciate the input from retired workers. Likewise, the recollection of an owner AND the observation of MANY cars over the years is valuable; as is GM documentation. They are all pieces of the puzzle.

Clem can’t understand why notarized statements of events from 46 years ago doesn’t result in a “closed case”. Sadly, it doesn’t. Not because of Clem, Clem’s integrity, or any thing else having to do with someone’s honesty. Memories fade. I can’t tell you how many times I have thought something happened a certain way and was corrected by a brother, a high school friend, or whatever. I AM NOT SAYING CATEGORICALLY THAT CLEM IS WRONG.

I have seen notarized statements from owners and dealers that turned out to be absolutely false. I can’t think of ONE where I believed the person making the statement was intentionally lying. They simply made mistakes. So, we have become skeptical of the notarized statements. Does that mean all of them are useless? Not at all. They are a piece of the puzzle.

Lastly, check the ego at the door. It gets in the way. We all have something to learn. When the obvious point of a post is to prove you are right, or how much you know, you aren’t likely going to be contributing in any meaningful way.

I spend more time on this site than any other car site. Why? Because I learn from some of the best. Because NORMALLY, we can agree to disagree, or at least disagree civilly. </div></div>


Lynn,

At the risk of portraying you as someone who is trying to have it both ways, I am a bit confused.

At what point is enough eyewitness testimony enough? Just wondering since the biggest hurdle these days seems to be in reaching technical agreement on a revision to a topic when another group has a hard and fast position already established.

In this case it seems no amount of first hand evidence will convince everyone... Which then logically follows: Is there a better way to communicate new information and discoveries to the hobby in general? </div></div>it is the same on all these car website. if the truth goes against common beliefs you will have a battle on your hands if there is $$$ involved.

[tom406]

Thank you for the original posting on the special order paint process as told by the workers. Awesome info that will soon be unavailable to the hobby.

I never would have guessed that with all my relatives baiting me on Facebook with opinions on trophy hunting, $15 minimum wage, and abortion that the most volatile subject in my social media would be a purple Camaro, lol <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/cry.gif

[Tenney]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tenney</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">back in the day,1960s i drag raced alky burning Rupps.</div></div>

440? </div></div>440 nitro </div></div>

Nice!

[Rick99]

Phil,

Do you know if there was there much difference in the way special paint cars were done in Van Nuys compared to Norwood?

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rick99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Phil,

Do you know if there was there much difference in the way special paint cars were done in Van Nuys compared to Norwood? </div></div>

Sorry no direct knowledge of LOS.

Anything I could offer would be speculation similar to 99% of the people posting here with opinions. I try to stick to things that I can conclusively verify with people who were on the lines or in the offices at Norwood.

I am only the messenger-who has the guts to buck the system with the truth.

[Lynn]

Phil:
I absolutely want it both ways. In fact, I want it (at least) five ways.
1. Fist hand accounts by Fisher and GM workers.
2. First hand accounts by original owners.
3. Facts as set out by unbiased researchers.
4. GM documentation on what was available or possible.
5. Contemporary photographs, such as car mags, owners pics from weddings, etc.

In addition, the CONCLUSIONS of experts who have researched thousands of cars are helpful. Doesn't mean they are always right.

I want all the evidence. No one source is infallible. I can remember in great detail the first time I saw a girl naked. But, ask me what day it was. I don't have a clue. Ask me what she was wearing 20 min. before. No idea. Now, suppose that girlfriend kept a diary, and had a dated entry of the event. Now we have another piece of the puzzle. Suppose also, that the date happened to be her brother's birthday, and there were family photos from the birthday. Now we have a third piece.

James admitted that what he had always thought was chipped in stone, was not. The revelation from the workers on the paint process for special paint cars changed his mind.

I have no idea what you mean by the following question: &quot;Is there a better way to communicate new information and discoveries to the hobby in general?&quot; Just present it. If someone doesn't want to believe it, it wouldn't matter if Moses brought it down from the mountain etched in stone. That is their problem, not yours and mine.

Just to be clear; the very first pic I saw a couple years ago of the paint under the door panel on Clem's car, I thought to myself (before I even read the thread) &quot;Wow, that car was Evening Orchid from the factory.&quot; Could I be wrong? Absolutely. Do I care if someone else disagrees with me? Not one bit.

I appreciate what you have done for this hobby. On the other hand, I appreciate what others have done coming from a different perspective. Doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong. MOST OF THE TIME, it is simply two ways of arriving at the same conclusions. For those times when they don't reach the same conclusions, I want as many facts as possible.

[Schonyenko2]

Info: no opinion. When I went to body paint tech school in 1971 we were told that GM used 4 paint jobbers Dupont Acme, R&amp;M, and Ditzler. All laquer. All the same, but slightly different. So sometimes you had factory variences. Also that made panel painting difficult without blending into the next panel.

The lighter colors like EO or Cortez silver deteriorated quickly due to UV rays. Color fade, bleaching out, cracking was very common for any of those shades especially if they spent time in direct sunlight.

It's an interesting car. The tech side discussion has been interesting.

Having worked in a factory during that time we're probably lucky the cars looked as good as they did. Lotta those guys &quot;smoked&quot; lunch.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lynn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Phil:
I absolutely want it both ways. In fact, I want it (at least) five ways.
1. Fist hand accounts by Fisher and GM workers.
2. First hand accounts by original owners.
3. Facts as set out by unbiased researchers.
4. GM documentation on what was available or possible.
5. Contemporary photographs, such as car mags, owners pics from weddings, etc.

In addition, the CONCLUSIONS of experts who have researched thousands of cars are helpful. Doesn't mean they are always right.

I want all the evidence. No one source is infallible. I can remember in great detail the first time I saw a girl naked. But, ask me what day it was. I don't have a clue. Ask me what she was wearing 20 min. before. No idea. Now, suppose that girlfriend kept a diary, and had a dated entry of the event. Now we have another piece of the puzzle. Suppose also, that the date happened to be her brother's birthday, and there were family photos from the birthday. Now we have a third piece.

James admitted that what he had always thought was chipped in stone, was not. The revelation from the workers on the paint process for special paint cars changed his mind.

I have no idea what you mean by the following question: &quot;Is there a better way to communicate new information and discoveries to the hobby in general?&quot; Just present it. If someone doesn't want to believe it, it wouldn't matter if Moses brought it down from the mountain etched in stone. That is their problem, not yours and mine.

Just to be clear; the very first pic I saw a couple years ago of the paint under the door panel on Clem's car, I thought to myself (before I even read the thread) &quot;Wow, that car was Evening Orchid from the factory.&quot; Could I be wrong? Absolutely. Do I care if someone else disagrees with me? Not one bit.

I appreciate what you have done for this hobby. On the other hand, I appreciate what others have done coming from a different perspective. Doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong. MOST OF THE TIME, it is simply two ways of arriving at the same conclusions. For those times when they don't reach the same conclusions, I want as many facts as possible. </div></div>



<span style="font-weight: bold">Great.. Now I know where you stand, so please indulge me in a simple and respectful examination of where we agree:
</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">You say:</span>

&quot;I absolutely want it both ways&quot;. <span style="font-weight: bold">Gotcha... and your original quote bears that out. You are not willing to throw the establishment under the bus nor are you willing to throw Clem under the bus. I get that.</span>


&quot;In fact, I want it (at least) five ways&quot;.

1. &quot;Fist hand accounts by Fisher and GM workers&quot;. <span style="font-weight: bold">I agree we have that from one plant (possibly more in the future)</span>

2. &quot;First hand accounts by original owners&quot;. <span style="font-weight: bold">We have that from Clem and His wife.</span>

3. &quot;Facts as set out by unbiased researchers&quot;. <span style="font-weight: bold"> Comment... One persons unbiased researcher is another Man's &quot;Partisan researcher&quot;</span>

4. &quot;GM documentation on what was available or possible&quot;. <span style="font-weight: bold">We have that to an extent.. and I have quite a bit of that from research on the plant.</span>

5. &quot;Contemporary photographs, such as car mags, owners pics from weddings, etc&quot;. <span style="font-weight: bold">Comment... potentially useful however old photos have limitations when you are looking at color (for instance) and the disagreement within the locked thread bears this out clearly.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">You say:</span>

&quot;I appreciate what you have done for this hobby. On the other hand, I appreciate what others have done coming from a different perspective. Doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong. MOST OF THE TIME, it is simply two ways of arriving at the same conclusions. For those times when they don't reach the same conclusions, I want as many facts as possible&quot;.

<span style="font-weight: bold">I agree, however if we are talking about factory issues and special paint (which is and was the focal point of Clem's old car) then that is a narrow knowledge path where the workers are the subject matter experts. </span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Lynn, For better or worse I am the voice of the organized Norwood worker group. They have discovered the intense interest that exists within the hobby through the writing of the book. Also know this....If you think Clem is abrasive in the critique of what goes on in these forums you should hear what several of the Norwood guys really think of the knowledge base that posts here. They look with amazement on the &quot;certainty&quot; the group has in drawing conclusions about the most trivial detail of the assembly process process mostly from individual cars 45 years on now, and trust me Clem is charitable by comparison with what he thinks. </span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">The workers have recently tried to reach out through the book and through me. My outreach to the hardcore segment of the hobby is mostly a failure and since I never worked at Norwood a day in my life-- I admittedly have zero direct Knowledge of what happened on the lines. </span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">What I continue to do is assist the workers by providing a voice to their work experiences as a liaison to the collector car hobby. In reply to your question about the hobby and communication well that is pretty obvious. The fact is that most every thread I am involved in eventually goes partisan where the hobby expert class has existing positions that sometimes are at great odds with the reality of the consistent recall of the workers who were there. </span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Make no mistake the message is not my mine, it is the workers and they feel quite rejected. Rejected to the point where meetings were extended to the persons that could benefit the most from the interaction. All declined.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">So in the face of forum bans, locked threads, declined invitations to meet and threads that consistently go negative with an impossible burden of proof, how would you suggest that the information from the workers be released to the hobby?</span>

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Schonyenko2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Info: no opinion. When I went to body paint tech school in 1971 we were told that GM used 4 paint jobbers Dupont Acme, R&amp;M, and Ditzler. All laquer. All the same, but slightly different. So sometimes you had factory variences. Also that made panel painting difficult without blending into the next panel.

The lighter colors like EO or Cortez silver deteriorated quickly due to UV rays. Color fade, bleaching out, cracking was very common for any of those shades especially if they spent time in direct sunlight.

It's an interesting car. The tech side discussion has been interesting.

Having worked in a factory during that time we're probably lucky the cars looked as good as they did. Lotta those guys &quot;smoked&quot; lunch. </div></div>

Exactly.. You nailed it.

[Lynn]

This is where egos need to be checked at the door. Why does ANYONE need to get thrown under a bus?
You got me? I have no idea what that means. If it means that you win the pissing match, then fine, I gladly concede. I hope you mean something else.

I never said Clem was abrasive.

Tell you what, I am covered up through October, but should have some free time after that. Set up meetings with workers. Give me a time and place. If it is in the Continental US, and I don't have a prior commitment, I will be there. I will be glad to help spread the workers' messages.

I have some suggestions for you that are 100% constructive, but given the tone of this thread, they are not going to be perceived as such. Tried to reach out to you by PM, but your box is full.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lynn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is where egos need to be checked at the door. Why does ANYONE need to get thrown under a bus?
You got me? I have no idea what that means. If it means that you win the pissing match, then fine, I gladly concede. I hope you mean something else.

I never said Clem was abrasive.

Tell you what, I am covered up through October, but should have some free time after that. Set up meetings with workers. Give me a time and place. If it is in the Continental US, and I don't have a prior commitment, I will be there. I will be glad to help spread the workers' messages.

I have some suggestions for you that are 100% constructive, but given the tone of this thread, they are not going to be perceived as such. Tried to reach out to you by PM, but your box is full. </div></div>


On the Egos I could not agree more.

This year I did Norwood type events on both coasts and I have a big event coming in the November time frame. YOU ARE INVITED!

I cleaned out my PM box BTW..and I am looking forward to a constructive relationship. I will be in touch. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[bergy]

Phil - I know that the Norwood assembly workers don't all have the skill and/or desire to write a book. That's where your presence has been invaluable. It would be really cool, however, if one or two of the most knowledgeable of those workers could participate directly in a forum like this. Can you encourage them to do that? I actually worked at St. Louis and Tonawanda during late 60's &amp; throughout the 70s, but I never worked at Norwood. It would be great for us to be able to ask the actual worker(s) questions in a forum like this. Many of the members here won't be traveling to the Norwood events. It would be a real service to our hobby if you could encourage them to check in with us once in a while.

I'm a geezer now, but at 28 years of age I was promoted to superintendent of production at Chevrolet. At 26 I was senior engineer in charge of troubleshooting quality &amp; special projects. So, I got to see and experience a lot the production processes. It would be great to be able to &quot;compare notes&quot; on this site with others who had production experience. Memories fade (I know that mine does!).

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Phil - I know that the Norwood assembly workers don't all have the skill and/or desire to write a book. That's where your presence has been invaluable. It would be really cool, however, if one or two of the most knowledgeable of those workers could participate directly in a forum like this. Can you encourage them to do that? I actually worked at St. Louis and Tonawanda during late 60's &amp; throughout the 70s, but I never worked at Norwood. It would be great for us to be able to ask the actual worker(s) questions in a forum like this. Many of the members here won't be traveling to the Norwood events. It would be a real service to our hobby if you could encourage them to check in with us once in a while.

I'm a geezer now, but at 28 years of age I was promoted to superintendent of production at Chevrolet. At 26 I was senior engineer in charge of troubleshooting quality &amp; special projects. So, I got to see and experience a lot the production processes. It would be great to be able to &quot;compare notes&quot; on this site with others who had production experience. Memories fade (I know that mine does!). </div></div>

I just had this discussion with them about this over the past few days. I was promptly reminded that I had written a book, and was working on a documentary and that is how we had jointly agreed to put a public face on the worker experiences.

I was cooked when both guys pointed out how the original owner was chastised for what they termed &quot;straight talk&quot; about his car. Bottom line was that they were clear the hobby issues on the internet were &quot;my job&quot; to communicate.

I cannot blame them <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif .

They prefer personal interaction face to face. That are what the events are for.

[clem]

what happened to me happen to a friend over on the NCRS board. when his rare corvette came to light in a national magazine one of the big wigs in the hobby ?? wanted to broker his car. when my friend refused this guy started to tell people that the car was not real. does this sound familiar ?

[SS427]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm a geezer now, but at 28 years of age I was promoted to superintendent of production at Chevrolet. At 26 I was senior engineer in charge of troubleshooting quality &amp; special projects. So, I got to see and experience a lot the production processes. It would be great to be able to &quot;compare notes&quot; on this site with others who had production experience. Memories fade (I know that mine does!). </div></div>

Amen to that! As a detail fanatic I strive to learn as much as I can every day and there are many things it would be nice to hear about.

As far as the Norwood guys go, I met several of them at MCACN last year and they are great guys with a huge willingness to talk about their experiences and gave me an open door.

[bergy]

Phil, IMO - you're doing the wrong thing in sheltering these guys from sites like this one. Good for you - bad for the community. :-( Rick - did they give you contact info?

[sYc]

I find it interesting that a letter from Jack Douglass will make one of his COPOs become a Yenko, but a similar letter from Mr. Grabiek regarding the color of this Z-28 carries little, if any weight.

[CanCOPO]

I hate to chime in but I've watched this since joining. While some people need iron clad objective evidence others are free to invent provenance from scraps and this becomes gospel. Life aint fair, victors write history, etc., etc.

[the427king]

scuncio has an L89 el camino for sale in the ad section with an affidavit from the original owner. Absolutely great price and truck , thinking of buying it myself ! . Thankfully the original owner isnt on this site making 60 posts a day on why hes not being believed

[SS427]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rick - did they give you contact info? </div></div>

No I did not get that from them. I was fighting a MAJOR illness while talking to them and really needed to get to my room and it did not cross my mind. I would imagine Phil could put you in touch.

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: the427king</div><div class="ubbcode-body">scuncio has an L89 el camino for sale in the ad section with an affidavit from the original owner. Absolutely great price and truck , thinking of buying it myself ! . Thankfully the original owner isnt on this site making 60 posts a day on why hes not being believed </div></div>another jerry ass kisser heard from. I know you guys need jerry to bless your cars but you should not obvious about it that he has you by the gonads. anyone who put up a snide remark about mewill be counter till you throw me off the board

[Keith Seymore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Phil - I know that the Norwood assembly workers don't all have the skill and/or desire to write a book. That's where your presence has been invaluable. It would be really cool, however, if one or two of the most knowledgeable of those workers could participate directly in a forum like this. Can you encourage them to do that? I actually worked at St. Louis and Tonawanda during late 60's &amp; throughout the 70s, but I never worked at Norwood. It would be great for us to be able to ask the actual worker(s) questions in a forum like this. Many of the members here won't be traveling to the Norwood events. It would be a real service to our hobby if you could encourage them to check in with us once in a while.

I'm a geezer now, but at 28 years of age I was promoted to superintendent of production at Chevrolet. At 26 I was senior engineer in charge of troubleshooting quality &amp; special projects. So, I got to see and experience a lot the production processes. It would be great to be able to &quot;compare notes&quot; on this site with others who had production experience. Memories fade (I know that mine does!). </div></div>

Bergy - thank you for highlighting your experience.

I also co- op'd, but as a GMI student out of Chevrolet Flint Assembly. My first &quot;real&quot; job was as a production supervisor, Line 1 pickups, second shift and as of now I've been with GM for 37 years in assembly, product design/development, and engineering program management. I've launched product in every GM full size truck plant in North America (about a dozen - including St Louis) and one small car plant. I also shepherded about a dozen products from inception through to full volume production (the second generation Denali, Escalade, original H2 and first gen Chevy Volt/Opel Ampera, to name a few). I'm currently on a three year special assignment creating a low volume passenger car which I am not at liberty to talk about.

My dad also worked for GM for 32 years, in manufacturing (pressed metal) for Chevrolet, and as an advanced manufacturing engineer for CPC. He is the GM patentholder for several inventions, including the hydroform process which is in use on Corvettes and full size trucks, and used to make &quot;special&quot; parts for Duntov, Smokey and Penske. He also raced semi professionally for Pontiac Motor Division through Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac.

I am surprised our paths have not crossed previously, and I share your sentiments about keeping our memories intact...

K

[Keith Seymore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith Seymore</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> blah blah etc. through Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac.

etc...

K </div></div>

Oh! But I'm not a geezer; I started at a very young age!

(I started two weeks after graduating high school; 7th level at the age of 23 and 8th level at the age of 30).

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif

[Steve Shauger]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: the427king</div><div class="ubbcode-body">scuncio has an L89 el camino for sale in the ad section with an affidavit from the original owner. Absolutely great price and truck , thinking of buying it myself ! . Thankfully the original owner isnt on this site making 60 posts a day on why hes not being believed </div></div>another jerry ass kisser heard from. I know you guys need jerry to bless your cars but you should not obvious about it that he has you by the gonads. anyone who put up a snide remark about mewill be counter till you throw me off the board</div></div>

Clem, you've proven your point and collectively most of us appreciate your valuable input and passion. However there comes a point that your continued bashing of the inspector and members opinions is detrimental to this site and hobby. May I suggest you temper your remarks or you will wear out your welcome and be banned.

This thread has been very informative and that's what this site is all about. EVERYONE needs to keep focus on the technical aspects of the topic and stop the personal attacks.

It's about the hobby, sharing information, and our passion for knowledge.Let's focus on that.

[Charley Lillard]

I have warned Clem twice but now he is getting a well deserved &quot;time out&quot; for a month.

[bergy]

Hey Keith - I left GM in 1980, so you would have only been with GM a couple of years when I left. I did, however, drive the turbine car up from Warren to Flint V-8 to show the car off to the folks who helped us develop the anticipated production cost for the turbine engine. It was kind of a &quot;thank you&quot; visit. I was assigned to Chevrolet R&amp;D at the Tech Center at the time. It would have been about 1977, so maybe you were there.

[Xplantdad]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Keith - I left GM in 1980, so you would have only been with GM a couple of years when I left. I did, however, drive the turbine car up from Warren to Flint V-8 to show the car off to the folks who helped us develop the anticipated production cost for the turbine engine. It was kind of a &quot;thank you&quot; visit. I was assigned to Chevrolet R&amp;D at the Tech Center at the time. It would have been about 1977, so maybe you were there. </div></div>

That's cool as heck! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/headbang.gif

[Rick99]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have warned Clem twice but now he is getting a well deserved &quot;time out&quot; for a month. </div></div>

Thank you Charley.

[bergy]

&quot;That is cool as heck&quot; - Thanks Bruce!

Maybe now that this thread has calmed down, some of the GM alum could sign in with their memorable experiences at work back in the day. I'll start a new thread if anyone is interested.

[Xplantdad]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">&quot;That is cool as heck&quot; - Thanks Bruce!

Maybe now that this thread has calmed down, some of the GM alum could sign in with their memorable experiences at work back in the day. I'll start a new thread if anyone is interested. </div></div>


Bruce, Please do! I worked in marketing at a local powersports group with a 'older' guy with a lot of marketing experience. I found out after working with him for a bit, that he went to GMI straight out of high school and eventually was in marketing at Buick when the GN's were launched. He worked for Chevy as well... He had some really fascinating stories, too!

[68l30]

I was doing some homework yesterday and came across this in my reading. It was in an article on selling used performance cars and how to be successful. Sam Grabiak outlined his dealers strategy and had a small mention on colors. I felt it was appropriate given the context of this discussion, but adds little weight only insight about what was going on &quot;color wise&quot; at Grabiak in late 1969-1970. The early 1970's were definitely different than today...This is the first and last paragraph of the article.

BIG

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-105-30597-grabiak_1.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-105-30598-grabiak_2.jpg

[Xplantdad]

Interesting!

[68l30]

It sure is. It's hard to forget what we know and slip back in time. Things were different, when you have a frame of reference from then and actually read what was &quot;happening&quot; it almost seams laughable today. Hindsight ain't always 20/20..


BIG

[novadude]

That color statement definitely explains why there are so many 69-72 cars with some shade of green, gold, and brown on the trim tags (both paint and interior). It's sad to see so many get restored to the generic red-on-black, etc color combos.

[camaromb]

My favorite example would be the Olympic Gold '69 RS Z28 with deluxe green interior and a brown vinyl top, quite a combo.

[442w30]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: novadude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That color statement definitely explains why there are so many 69-72 cars with some shade of green, gold, and brown on the trim tags (both paint and interior). It's sad to see so many get restored to the generic red-on-black, etc color combos. </div></div>

I have production lists by color for many cars across different brands.

White and black were middle of the road at best - black especially was not really a performance color the way it is thought of in modern times.

Funny thing about golds is that Chrysler's 1970 roster, which had one &quot;regular&quot; gold, was not popular on performance cars, but for GM there were several shades, with all of them being popular (at least for Pontiac and Buick).

[Billohio]

I ran across a hugger orange Z with green interior. Shocking

[442w30]

If you picked a Mustang year, bodystyle, and color, I could tell you how many were built in similar odd combinations - they are out there.

[JayR]

This question has probably been answered many times previous, but was the process for ordering a special paint car? Was it done through the dealer? Did they go through the COPO system? Did all plants do special order paint cars?

Bob

[Keith Seymore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JayR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This question has probably been answered many times previous, but was the process for ordering a special paint car? Was it done through the dealer? Did they go through the COPO system? Did all plants do special order paint cars?

Bob </div></div>

I trust you read the first post in this thread...

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif

Additionally -

Special paint process, per author/historian Eric White (originally written for discussion on a Pontiac forum):

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gtoric</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The procedure for getting a special-paint car ordered went like this:

• The customer (or dealership) determines what color is desired.

• An &quot;All Series Special Equipment&quot; order form is filled out.

The information required for a special-paint-request on this form is:
• Lower Color Paint No.
• Upper Color Paint No.
• Make of Car &amp; Year Paint Used.
I am guessing that obtaining the correct paint no. would be left up to the ordering salesman/dealership paint department.

In the '60s and early '70s, before colored plastic/fiberglass trim parts became common, any color paint could be ordered, as long as the dealer could supply the paint formula no. on the S.O. form. After the mid-'70s when the crash-bumper fillers became common place, special order colors were phased out except for large fleet orders.

Several codes were used on the Fisher Body trim tag to indicate a special-order paint. Codes varied between the years and between Fisher Body plants. Some of the codes used were:
1= Standard GM paint, not a Pontiac color
2= Special Pontiac color. Sometimes offered a half-year &quot;springtime&quot; color.
3= Cadillac FireFrost color. This paint was not normally allowed on a Pontiac build because of the special processes required to apply this type of paint.
4= Body in primer
SPEC or ** would indicate a paint color from a source outside GM (Ford, Chryco, AMC, John Deere, International Harvester, etc.) Colors could also be ordered to match school or business colors. As long as a formula no. could be identified by the dealership just about any color hue could be specified.

• The order was then routed through the Pontiac Zone office, which then routed it on to the Central Office.

• Central Office then entered a request to the paint supplier, usually PPG/Ditzler, for the appropriate paint.

• The paint supplier shipped a quantity of paint to the appropriate assembly plant.

• The special-order build was scheduled and coordinated between the Fisher plant and GMAD or Pontiac assembly.

• Build was delivered to dealership with a quart of touch up paint in trunk.</div></div>


I have also seen a double &quot;&amp;&quot; (double ampersand) to designate special paint, on a Pontiac plant cowl data tag.

Most assembly plants have/had a special paint system, separate from the main line, where smaller paint pots could be loaded with low production volume colors, which would minimize the amount of waste when flushing the system. Typically these were done for fleet and special equipment runs (Grand Trunk RR, RCMP, Bell Telephone, etc). We also have had some plants were the special colors were run through the paint repair line rather than the main assembly process.

K

[Tracker1]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 442w30</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you picked a Mustang year, bodystyle, and color, I could tell you how many were built in similar odd combinations - they are out there. </div></div>

When you find a black Boss 302 Mustang, please let me know <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[69LM1]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tracker1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 442w30</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you picked a Mustang year, bodystyle, and color, I could tell you how many were built in similar odd combinations - they are out there. </div></div>

When you find a black Boss 302 Mustang, please let me know <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

</div></div>


Here you go <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

J/K

http://www.diseno-art.com/images_5/2012_Ford_Mustang_Boss_302_8.jpg

Rich

[442w30]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tracker1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
When you find a black Boss 302 Mustang, please let me know <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

</div></div>

http://www.boss302.com/paint.htm

[Tracker1]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 442w30</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tracker1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
When you find a black Boss 302 Mustang, please let me know <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

</div></div>

http://www.boss302.com/paint.htm

</div></div>

HaHa! Black Jade doesn't count! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif