1969 Cross-Ram Z/28

[scuncio]

A former colleague of mine is looking at this car. This would be his first serious collector car so I offered to help him dig up any history you guys might have with the car. Any feedback would be great...thanks!!

(I told him if he gets the car, I will align the DS headlight cover for him....)

http://tinyurl.com/j9fpqxf

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/vM4AAOSwYlJW4tQg/s-l1600.jpg

[William]

For all the effort [and expense] that went into the otherwise beautiful restoration they put the wrong stripe color on it. Should have black stripes as noted on the certification. At this point very expensive to correct.

Some other details:

Trim height incorrect
Should not have a trunk mat
Should not have chrome tailpipes
Incorrect Posi tag; should have the red tag mounted on the fill plug
Spare wheel back side should be black
BV is a 4.10 axle, not 3.73 as stated
Rocker covers should not be polished
firewall graffiti
extra labels in the engine bay
Should not be insulators under fuel tank straps
No Camaro, not even a ZL1, had the Corvette L88/ZL1 octane warning label. On a Corvette it was placed on the console, not pasted on the glass.
‘Can-Am 302’ sticker on the air cleaner is home-made and makes no sense. The 302 engine existed for the Trans-Am series. Had nothing to do with the Can-Am series.

Great car if you like plaques, trophies, badges.

[marxjunk]

neat car..too fluffed for me personally...

id rather spend my money on a survivor type car...or a car that was restored to be restored not loaded with eye candy to get trophys...plaques etc..i dont understand that mentality myself

id look around for a bit...that car proba wont meet reserve...it may be around for awhile and you can always come back to it..

[scott s]

For all the pics of jerrys reports and #s i would want to see the eng pad stamp without paint and the orig invoice as stated that he had for that kinda $$. Like the others stated very nice piece if u want eye candy thou..

[m22mike]

Could have been a very nice and correct car, the happy marks are really creative <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif, a bunch of hardware issues that are not that hard to correct.
And William, how did you miss my favorite the chi-neez brake booster.. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif
And really to bad about the stripes <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/no.gif, ouch !

[Charley Lillard]

I wouldn't worry about the stripes. I would want to see a pic of the bare engine pad though. Was restored by a member here so maybe he can comment ?

[William]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m22mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And William, how did you miss my favorite the chi-neez brake booster..</div></div>

I must be asleep at the wheel...

[luzl78]

how did the car score a perfect thousand judging points? beautiful car. my wife and i were just sitting at a light and she commented &quot;look at all the black, white and silver cars&quot;. very bland car colors these days unless you buy a very high end car.

[njsteve]

The modern white and red plastic warning label tag on the battery terminal. Why do people leave those on? It is a shipping warning required by modern regulations. For some reason people think it has to be there since they saw it on another showcar somewhere. (Sorry, I get verklempt whenever I see one - almost as bad as when I see a Ford &quot;CAUTION FAN&quot; decal on the radiator shroud of a Camaro) <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif

It's a beautiful looking car if you want a polished showcar. I like patina'd old stuff now. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[Charley Lillard]

The repo boosters are really easy to tell by the very defined edges of the triangular shaped recesses.

[the427king]

Did I misread or miss something or is there dates listed for the rims and one head,and nothing else under component data??

[ZLP955]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The repo boosters are really easy to tell by the very defined edges of the triangular shaped recesses. </div></div>
Plus the location and orientation of the Delco Moraine stamp gives it away.

[wrench]

change 5 leaf springs on rear and move the grill emblem.

[ban617]

What about page 2 of the report that lists the things that are incorrect ?

[m22mike]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The repo boosters are really easy to tell by the very defined edges of the triangular shaped recesses. </div></div>

Yep, and it is sad to see them on so many nicely restored cars out there, but they are an easy, cheap way to go.

Mike

[PeteLeathersac]

Incorrect parts aside, a cool car but sale descriptions that bother including the original word for an owner's manual but nothing for an important item like dealer invoice always make me <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif .

Also, I recognize that CanAm 302 decal being it's from one of my all time fav' cars...the 100 built GM South African Vauxhall '73 Firenza w/ factory 302 Chevy/Muncie!

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[Billohio]

Not sure how a car like this can score points like that. Repop valve covers, the booster, make me concerned. The grille emblem in the wrong place and driveshaft stripes are at the wrong end of the driveshaft.

[resto4u]

sold at BJ palm beach 2007 for $110,000.

[m22mike]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Billohio</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not sure how a car like this can score points like that. Repop valve covers, the booster, make me concerned. The grille emblem in the wrong place and driveshaft stripes are at the wrong end of the driveshaft. </div></div>

They score points like that because most judging venues have no idea what they are looking at ! I think MCACN is doing a VG job at it.

Mike

[Billohio]

I guess it wasn't missing parts so maybe thats it! I think the subframe looks pretty pitted too.

[the427king]

Well at least it can be concluded that the oil cap is on the correct side. Ralley green is a great color.

[firstgenaddict]

FWIW take some thinner on a rag and wipe off the INK JET letter and number coding on the hoses... there were no ink jet coders in 1967-1969.

[watk69]

At Camaro Nationals this car would get murdered by judges. Lot of this resto was done to mid 2000's knowledge and acceptance, and frankly, scoring too even at MCACN. My car scored 993 in 2009 there, but with numerous errors when it went up against the big boys in Frederick 2015. Say what you want about them, they know their stuff

In Jerry's book its says black or natural on the brake reservoir, now its been universally accepted as natural. Chrome tips only came out with May 15th etc etc. The subframe pitting and prep on this car goes into the &quot;wtf were they thinking category&quot;

[427TJ]

So all those grille badges don't mean much??? (LOL)

[William]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: watk69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
In Jerry's book its says black or natural on the brake reservoir, now its been universally accepted as natural. </div></div>

Natural? Sez who? It's been established by former GM workers that masters and calipers arrived at the plants painted black. Vintage pics clearly show masters painted black.

[HawkX66]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: William</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: watk69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
In Jerry's book its says black or natural on the brake reservoir, now its been universally accepted as natural. </div></div>

Natural? Sez who? It's been established by former GM workers that masters and calipers arrived at the plants painted black. Vintage pics clearly show masters painted black. </div></div>
Agreed. This says it all as far as I'm concerned. Look at line 26.

http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q573/SgtHawkUSMC/69%20Camaro%20SS396%20L34/69%20Reference/Black%20Master%20Cyl%20Production%20Sheet.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/SgtHawkUSMC/media/69%20Camaro%20SS396%20L34/69%20Reference/Black%20Master%20Cyl%20Production%20Sheet.jpg.html )

[William]

Engine bay photo of a COPO a few weeks after delivery.

http://www.icehouse.net/camaros/slvrcopo.htm

[Stefano]

Norwood Brake Masters were painted Black. For various reasons the paint did not usually stick very well, but we have seen enough original untouched cars over the years to document this. I belive that William and I concur on this issue topic <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[bigsixman]

My 69 Z/28 with 17,000 miles on it in 1972 had a black master cylinder. It may have started out gloss black, but by then it was faded down to somewhere between satin and flat black.

It was a Norwood cat built in August of 1969.

[olredalert]

----Although no expert, I agree on the black master. Along with that though is that I have always felt that only the rough casting was black. Any machined area would have no paint. In other words the whole raw master was painted black before it was machined........Bill S

[old5.0]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: olredalert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">----Although no expert, I agree on the black master. Along with that though is that I have always felt that only the rough casting was black. Any machined area would have no paint. In other words the whole raw master was painted black before it was machined........Bill S </div></div>

Sprayed or dipped?

[Lynn]

Definitely not dipped. All the passages would get paint in them.

Sprayed, but very lightly. I have never seen one that had paint runs, and have seen some that definitely did not get full coverage. Gotta remember, GM didn't give a hoot about what that master would look like in 10 years. Just needed to be nice enough to get it off the show room floor.

[William]

Here's one on a '69 Nova SS prior to delivery. Some runs, looks dipped to me. If it was done prior to machining there weren't any passages. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/05/full-233-43938-master.jpg

[watk69]

you'll get dinged for it in Frederick if its not natural, what can I tell ya LOL. Guess we need to tell the guru's there. I'd love NOT to have to strip my master cylinder

[Mr.Nickey Nova]

All the guru's that judge don't know everything, but they think so...

[Lynn]

You may be correct William. Although from that pic it is difficult to tell if that is a run, or if someone spilled some brake fluid when filling it up. Not saying it isn't a run. Besides, even if the passages were not machined, you would have a problem with paint in the reservoir. Paint and brake fluid don't get along very well.

The finishes I have seen certainly don't look like other dipped components, like the cross member or motor mount stands. I have found dried puddles of paint on those, and would expect the same on something as oddly shaped as a master cyl.

[Charley Lillard]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: watk69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At Camaro Nationals this car would get murdered by judges. Lot of this resto was done to mid 2000's knowledge and acceptance, and frankly, scoring too even at MCACN. My car scored 993 in 2009 there, but with numerous errors when it went up against the big boys in Frederick 2015. Say what you want about them, they know their stuff

In Jerry's book its says black or natural on the brake reservoir, now its been universally accepted as natural. Chrome tips only came out with May 15th etc etc. The subframe pitting and prep on this car goes into the &quot;wtf were they thinking category&quot; </div></div>
Are you sure you are correct about them not accepting black master cylinders ? That is knida hard to believe.

[jl8z28]

They say it was black I been through it

[WorkinProgress]

Here are some pictures of a NOS ZA coded master cylinder. Not sure what it fits.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/05/full-12894-43941-69master1.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/05/full-12894-43942-69master2.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/05/full-12894-43943-69master3.jpg

[Steve Shauger]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: watk69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

In Jerry's book its says black or natural on the brake reservoir, now its been universally accepted as natural.&quot; </div></div>

What universe did this consensus come from. Most of the original unrestored cars I've inspected/ certified have remnants of black paint on their master cylinders.

If you were looking for an assembly line correct restored car this car would not qualify. If you're looking for eye candy well....

[watk69]

Sorry fellas, I stand completely corrected my master cylinder is natural as MacNeish said was correct in his revised book (or black) and they marked me up for it not being black...........carry on and sorry for the Ruckus. I'm getting old........what can I say. At Indy Mecum I saw them both ways as well

[Kurt S]

Look in a Corvair. The masters are in the trunk and protected - they are a cheap, low-gloss black. Pretty much what Warren's pics show.

[Salvatore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr.Nickey Nova</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All the guru's that judge don't know everything, but they think so...</div></div>

Correct Mark! Learning never really ends.

[olredalert]

----I rest my case. Warren has pretty good documentation there. I also know that one done as well as Warrens pictures is relatively rare......Bill S

[Mr.Nickey Nova]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: [email protected]</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr.Nickey Nova</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All the guru's that judge don't know everything, but they think so...</div></div>

Correct Mark! Learning never really ends. </div></div>

That is true Sam!! There is some we all learn everyday, that's why i like this site, always learning...