Stripe Delete JL8 Z28

[Tracker1]

<span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="color: #000099">Anybody on here own this one...or know about it? Cool car.</span> </span>

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/03/full-3497-41380-nostripez.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/03/full-3497-41381-nostripez3.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/03/full-3497-41382-nostripez2.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/03/full-3497-41383-nostripez4.jpg

[markinnaples]

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/drool.gif

[Charley Lillard]

No rear bumper guards and what looks like a incorrect black grill. I would love to see more pics and hear more. Sometimes that stuff got changed out just for the look.

[olredalert]

----Wish I knew where that car was located back in the day as I saw a car very, very close to this in the service department prior to delivery. It was a Chevy dealer in Newton Mass that I used to poke around at every now and then. I knew nothing about JL8 brakes in 69, so never looked for that. Other than the brakes a dead ringer right down to the houndstooth gut and stripe delete. Always thought it was very classy.......Bill S

[PeteLeathersac]

S<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/worship.gif C<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/drool.gif<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/drool.gifL!!!
Hope all's true, love to see/hear more.
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete


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http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/03/full-2506-41426-jl8stripedelete.jpg
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[Steve Shauger]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PeteLeathersac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

S<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/worship.gif C<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/drool.gif<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/drool.gifL!!!
Hope all's true, love to see/hear more.
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete


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http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/03/full-2506-41426-jl8stripedelete.jpg
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</div></div>

Looks like the hood was added no 302 emblems, grill, no roof rail trim Lots of changes based on the exterior pics.

[olredalert]

----Does that plate look like a NJ plate?......Bill S

[92646]

Doe it have a small rear spoiler?

[njsteve]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: olredalert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">----Does that plate look like a NJ plate?......Bill S </div></div>

Yes, that's a NJ vanity plate with the old &quot;KK&quot; collector classification on the left side margin.

[Craig_Maiorana]

Anyone know where in Jersey this car was or is?

[JL8Tom]

I am the current owner of this car. I was the 3 owner and sold it about 1977 with 14,000 miles on it, located and purchased it 6 years ago, long story. &quot;Original&quot; Bumper Guards are back on the car. This car 'did' come with a black grill contrary to what is published in Jerry McNeish's book. Originally had an Endura Bumper, I removed it and put a chrome bumper on it back them (silly me). It is an X33 and yes the drip roof mouldings are not on the car. Original hood was stolen back then, and was replaced with a GM Hood, thats when you could buy them for about $ 100 from the dealer. This is a real deal factory JL8 car, I have the P.O.P. Currently has 24,000 miles on it, still all original paint (except for the hood) and interior.

[mockingbird812]

Welcome Tom. Way cool ride. Howz bout some current shots of yr car? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[Salvatore]

would be great to see some pictures Tom.

[Charley Lillard]

Welcome to the site Tom.....Can I have it ?

[PeteLeathersac]

'

Sounds very cool, looking forward to pictures too!
Welcome aboard!!!
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[William]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JL8Tom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This car 'did' come with a black grill contrary to what is published in Jerry McNeish's book. </div></div>

That would be Jerry McNeish, The Camaro Research Group and everyone else in the hobby that knows '69s at all. Standard grille on a non-RS Z/28 was molded in an off-white plastic, the entire front painted argent [silver]. In production the outer circumference was painted body color. Plenty of survivor Z/28s around with silver grilles.

Have the car judged and the grille will be deemed incorrect.

http://www.camaros.org/exterior.shtml#BlackoutPaint

[Tracker1]

SWEET!!! So glad this thread found you JL8TOM, quite a car you have there. Welcome - I hoped it would make its way to you so we could find out more about such a rare Z. Any more pics you can post?

[JL8Tom]

Hi William,
I have to disagree with you. This car was delivered with a black molded grill with outer circumference painted to match body color. Please note this is a &quot; -- &quot; paint code stripe delete car and has headlight washers, could one or both of those been a factor in the black grill. I have been in touch with the original owner and will reach out to him to see if he has any recollection regarding the black grill. I can with all certainty say, this car was delivered with a black grill. Jerry's book is a great resource, but it's the one bit of information that is not 100% correct, I have proof positive parked in my garage.

[70 copo]

Oh-oh.... Another potential &quot;evening orchid&quot; thread. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif

[68l30]

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/haha.gif

Enjoy what you have and/or restore it as you find/research &quot;your&quot; car to be. PLEASE don't do it just to conform to a standard. Cars have a history &amp; history is not always set in stone...Remember when they never made a 427 Camaro/Chevelle...? The learning and research should never end.


BIG

[William]

I have been in the hobby 41 years, virtually all of it centered on the ’69 Camaro. The “black Z/28 grille” yarn has been out there since the cars were new. If you flip through late ‘70s car mags it won’t take long to find a non-RS ’69 Z/28 pictured with a black grille. At the time many believed they were built that way. Many people also believed you could order one with headers and a cross-ram. It took years to dispel these myths; in many ways Jerry’s book was the catalyst. His books remain the best source of Camaro info available and have stood the test of time.

When the CRG was formed 18 years ago we had to deal with anomalies in production. Thus the phrase “normative practice” was developed.

http://www.camaros.org/geninfo.shtml#Normative

I suggest you carefully read the last paragraph. Just because the car has a black grille does not mean it was built with it. Talking to previous owners is a good place to start but oral history really isn’t proof. The car could have been damaged in transit or shortly thereafter and repaired with a black grille. 47 years is a long time to remember an insignificant detail and it is entirely possible even the original owner was not aware of it. It’s also possible he painted it.

If it was in fact built that way it was an error. Standard practice was a silver grille; about 16,000 non-RS Z/28s were built with one.

Good luck in your research.

[cook_dw]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 68l30</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/haha.gif

Enjoy what you have and/or restore it as you find/research &quot;your&quot; car to be. PLEASE don't do it just to conform to a standard. Cars have a history &amp; history is not always set in stone...Remember when they never made a 427 Camaro/Chevelle...? The learning and research should never end.


BIG </div></div>



x1000

[Tracker1]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: William</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been in the hobby 41 years, virtually all of it centered on the ’69 Camaro. The “black Z/28 grille” yarn has been out there since the cars were new. If you flip through late ‘70s car mags it won’t take long to find a non-RS ’69 Z/28 pictured with a black grille. At the time many believed they were built that way. Many people also believed you could order one with headers and a cross-ram. It took years to dispel these myths; in many ways Jerry’s book was the catalyst. His books remain the best source of Camaro info available and have stood the test of time.

When the CRG was formed 18 years ago we had to deal with anomalies in production. Thus the phrase “normative practice” was developed.

http://www.camaros.org/geninfo.shtml#Normative

I suggest you carefully read the last paragraph. Just because the car has a black grille does not mean it was built with it. Talking to previous owners is a good place to start but oral history really isn’t proof. The car could have been damaged in transit or shortly thereafter and repaired with a black grille. 47 years is a long time to remember an insignificant detail and it is entirely possible even the original owner was not aware of it. It’s also possible he painted it.

If it was in fact built that way it was an error. Standard practice was a silver grille; about 16,000 non-RS Z/28s were built with one.

Good luck in your research.


</div></div>

Hopefully we can give William the last word on this as he pretty much covered it. I would hate to see our thread here on such a significant Z devolve into an insignificant elongated grille discussion. More pics and memories, Tom, please. Thank you....

[tom406]

Not '69 Camaro specific but a similar anecdote. I recently looked at an original owner '70 Challenger RT/SE 440 car, still in the hands of the original owners. It doesn't have any 440 emblems on the hood, and they've never painted it. Aha! a factory mistake!? Well, as we looked closer, you could see evidence that the hood had been resprayed. Upon asking the owners about what they knew, it turns out it was a late 1970 dealer swap car (they wanted a '70 but too late to order) and it apparently suffered hood damage in transit or while at the first dealer (or maybe stolen? that definitely happened back in the day) and the body shop apparently was apparently too lazy to drill holes and transfer the emblems over. Just an example of something happening between the factory and the original owner.

[Mr70]

And a factory mistake is just that,a mistake from what the majority of those cars received.

[Zman1969]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tracker1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Hopefully we can give William the last word on this as he pretty much covered it. I would hate to see our thread here on such a significant Z devolve into an insignificant elongated grille discussion. More pics and memories, Tom, please. Thank you.... </div></div>

IMO there are way too many nitpic threads out there, lets see more of the car and enjoy them! I do because of all the options- so few were identicle

[EZ Nova]

It could have happened with the black grill? Maybe the factory made the mistake.

Reminds me when a old friend, Don Henderson Sr, RIP, showed up at a Shelby show geez have to be back in the 80's or early 90's now, with what he was KNOWN as an original, I (&quot;think&quot; the year was) 1965 Shelby GT 350 R COUPE! Everyone at the show was telling him they NEVER made one, didn't come that way, it's a clone etc. Told him to get it off the grounds. That is the Mr Carroll Shelby himself arrived on scene. I guess word travels fast about this car and Carroll had to see it for himself.

Well low and behold, CONTRARY to the current knowledge of the PRO's and restorers at the time, Carroll walk up and looks the car over VERY CLOSELY from what Don told me. Then Carroll looked at Don and said, &quot;I haven't seen or even HEARD of one of these in YEARS&quot;! Seems there was a limited run of 5/6 cars that Carroll did just to see how the coupe would run against the fastbacks. It took Carroll's own words for the car to be accepted at the REAL DEAL even though EVERYONE said they never made one. Carroll obviously knew otherwise.

[William]

Hey I'm behaving myself. You want your eyebrows singed go on any Corvette forum and claim you have a '67 Corvette 327 that you're <span style="font-style: italic">certain</span> was built with a 427 hood. Another urban legend. Tough crowd over there.

Had the owner simply stated the car had a black grille and asked for opinions, my response would have been different. The brash statement that was made not only ignored the large body of 1st Gen Camaro knowledge, it made an uncalled for swipe at Jerry MacNeish. No one has examined more cars. Like him or not but respect his knowledge.

Meanwhile, I'll wait for proof.

[70 copo]

You know what is great about knowing all these workers after writing the book on the plant? The ability to pick up the phone and ask about a specific issue.

So I just did, and the reply was as follows:

<span style="font-weight: bold">&quot;When there was an issue with the wrong color grill it was usually due to a replacement worker that was not familiar with the element&quot;

&quot;It was rarely an issue of running out of grill stock but a bin selection error by the employee&quot;

&quot;Then we found the error it would be worked later on a repair ticket&quot;

&quot;Replacing the wrong grill in those days was not a high priority for us, we typically sent that on to the dealer as a minor defect&quot;

&quot;The key was to get a grille into the car that would fit and allow the other elements to proceed to complete the build of the unit&quot;</span>

[70 copo]

JL8Tom,

Here are some simple things that I figured out:

Most Judging is partisan to a degree and it has to be otherwise a show with no rules becomes a nightmare to govern for the participants.

Most Websites are also the same way as there is pressure to conform. This site is a rare exception where respectful debate is permitted with an occasional thread lock then someone gets a case of sore paws.

What many miss is judging or forums will never replace the first hand experience of the builders when it comes to explaining an exception, and I am honored to have ready access to a number of these fine men today when I need to ask.

On your specific car and grill? The Superintendent stated &quot;absolutely&quot;. So there is your Proof for what it is worth.... .

[Mr70]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">&quot;Replacing the wrong grill in those days was not a high priority for us, we typically sent that on to the dealer as a minor defect&quot;</div></div>

So it was then past onto the dealership to correct it.That jives with what I've learned from former salesman back then.And they usually didn't care unless the customer spoke up about it,which was almost never.

[70 copo]

Exactly.

[Crush]

I must admit reading this thread has been an education. Keep it coming!

[resto4u]

Never discount human error on a manufacture production line. And i am sure there were plenty of factory mistakes.

[Craig_Maiorana]

I would have to think that on more than a few occasions a factory anomaly managed to slip by the inspectors and make it to a customer.

[tom406]

Per a supervisor on the Ford assembly lines in the '60s and '70s: You kept the line going but couldn't downgrade a part. An example he gave was that it was OK to put a large battery tray (and even a larger HD battery) into a car if you ran out of small battery trays, but you couldn't put a small battery tray into a car that was supposed to be fitted with a large one. Another example would be to put a nicer steering wheel into a base model car, but not vice versa. I would think that a black vs. argent grille would be considered an equivalent part that would be an acceptable substitute (not requiring rework) if GM had a similar policy.

[70 copo]

It does a bit of a disservice to the originality portion of the discussion when normalitive practice takes priority over originality. With each consensious car that is created a bit more history is lost.

[William]

Nothing anyone has stated proves <span style="font-style: italic">that</span> car was built that way.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: William</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nothing anyone has stated proves <span style="font-style: italic">that</span> car was built that way. </div></div>

Correct. But the so called black grill myth that you are making reference to has a basis as an assembly line mistake.

What we have then is first hand knowledge from the line that it did happen.

The better question is why not this specific car then? It's a great car by any measure why not focus on the good stuff?

[Charley Lillard]

Phil...What we have <span style="font-weight: bold">here</span> is not first hand knowledge. It is being told to us by you saying a guy you know said he worked on the line. Doesn't mean it isn't correct but it can't really be positively relied upon. It could have come off the line that way but I would sure like to look at it up close.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Phil...What we have <span style="font-weight: bold">here</span> is not first hand knowledge. It is being told to us by you saying a guy you know said he worked on the line. Doesn't mean it isn't correct but it can't really be positively relied upon. It could have come off the line that way but I would sure like to look at it up close. </div></div>

Charley,

That makes two of us. The first hand account of a Chassis side superintendent that ran the dog house area up on the second floor is pretty compelling however.

[Kurt S]

Compelling? He said it was possible. So did Bill.
Doesn't make it likely.

[70 copo]

Kurt,

I agree 100%. No proof it was installed on this car.

For the sake of fairness to the car however the term compelling is approporiate as the superintendent was successful in his lucid discription of the dog house build process detail to cause me to believe and agree that cosmetic production errors of this type did happen.

So, we have the black grill myth which came from some place -- and we now have a plausible explanation as to the cause. Now that does not make it correct... however if that is what happened it is hard to argue that such a car is not &quot;original&quot; as produced from the factory.

Than again why not trust Tom's word on what he says on this specific car so we can learn more about it?

[bergy]

As one who worked on the assembly line around this time period (St. Louis not Norwood), it always frustrates me to somewhat cavalierly assume that anomalies like this were simply &quot;worker error&quot;. I was the &quot;replacement employee&quot; and did every job on the line as part of my education. I can assure you that I would never have gotten away with selecting a wrong part that was as easy to spot as a grille. The guys around me were smart &amp; cared about the product that was rolling down the line. They were like hawks, waiting for the &quot;new guy&quot; to make a mistake &amp; teasing the crap out of him! New employees weren't just thrown into production without someone keeping an eye on them (early in the shift - relief men were available). Maybe hard to believe in this day of robots, but we really did look over each other's shoulder. The line workers were acquaintances and/or friends of the inspectors and repairmen down the line - it wasn't like they were 50 miles away in another town! Mistakes created work for them &amp; they were NOT happy about it.
There are other, IMO more likely, explanations - like damage in transit, changed out later because someone thought it looked cool, etc. Also curious that the hood has been replaced - could the grille have been damaged/stolen at the same time? No disrespect to the production superintendent (I was one too). If you ask - is something &quot;possible&quot;, you get a different answer than if you ask what the more &quot;likely&quot; explanation is.
OK - sorry for the rant - had to defend my fellow employees!

[70 copo]

Bergy,

Not one assumption made. I have the quality control records from the plant generated during audit. Here is the easiest page to put my hands on without digging into the storage files.

[Murphy442]

Love all the insights here. Maybe it's my non-confrontational nature but wouldn't it be easier to put a Silver grille in it and then never have it ever be questioned again? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[cook_dw]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Murphy442</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Love all the insights here. Maybe it's my non-confrontational nature but wouldn't it be easier to put a Silver grille in it and then never have it ever be questioned again? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif </div></div>

Unless you have rock solid proof it came the unconventional way then yes it would make more sense to comply with what the norm would have been.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It does a bit of a disservice to the originality portion of the discussion when normalitive practice takes priority over originality. With each consensious car that is created a bit more history is lost. </div></div>

This <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif

[DW31S]

Is there any paperwork to prove that &quot;--&quot; paint code cars either did or did not receive black grills. Surely mistakes DID happen, although those mistakes are quite rare. Lots to ponder here: the hood was changed--is the header panel original paint? Maybe the grill was changed/painted when the hood swap was performed. Maybe the original owner wanted the grill black; he/she obviously wanted something out of the norm, hence the stripe delete. Maybe transit damage. Maybe a lot of things. Without proof positive, we can only speculate. The mind is a terrible thing to waste, and maybe we can learn something new here, but to learn we must be open minded.

[cook_dw]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It does a bit of a disservice to the originality portion of the discussion when normalitive practice takes priority over originality. With each consensious car that is created a bit more history is lost. </div></div>

This <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif </div></div>



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cook_dw</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Unless you have rock solid proof</span></span> it came the unconventional way then yes it would make more sense to comply with what the norm would have been. </div></div>


<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif

If what if's and buts were candy and nuts....

[kwhizz]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Craig_Maiorana</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would have to think that on more than a few occasions a factory anomaly managed to slip by the inspectors and make it to a customer. </div></div>



Like the 1 of 1 Factory L-89 Nova...........LOL

[68l30]

If the car is mostly orig paint and in great condition a &quot;Good&quot; grille is going to be expensive. Let's see, 2K on a NOS grille or take the chance of losing a few points if it is ever judged? With as hard as it seams to get past a abnormality or a incorrect item ( You decide) why on earth would one subject themselves to the judging? I'm sure this is a pretty cool car. Like every other Camaro on the planet, I'm sure it has sins too. Let's focus on the positives of each and then &quot;maybe&quot; more people will get involved with preserving whats left and shareing a car we may be able to take something from...... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif

Got any more pics of the Z ? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/3gears.gif

BIG

[bcmiller]

I would like to see some close up pics of the grill and hood.

What month and week was this car built?

[njsteve]

Awesome car! I can feel your pain about non-conforming examples. I had a 1969 Z11 Pace Car a few years back that was a Zone show car with every option on it (excapt a big block). I even had original owner photos from the day he bought it that showed the non-conforming pinstripes around the main orange hood and trunk stripes. The gap between them was the same width as the actual pinstripe, which was noticeably different than the blue-print proportions put out by Chevrolet. That got debated quite a bit and I even lost points at a judging for it. But in the end, it didn't bother me because the orignal owner was the true judge of how the car was at the time it was deliverd as he was the ultimate witness to its status in 1969.

[camaromb]

When did the standard '69 Camaro grille start being produced in a black plastic rather than the off-white we are most familiar with on original cars? The NOS grilles have been black for many years. I believe the factory RS grilles were formed in black plastic for the '69 production rather than the off-white, at least what I have seen on some original cars.

[Mr.Nickey Nova]

Tom,
Go to the back side of the grill and scratch the surface. See if there is any white under the black. The grills were molded in white and then painted argent silver, where the black grills from what i read were molded in black. At least you will be able to tell if it was painted over or not.

[lowmile]

This certainly is a GREAT mostly original old car. But we also know its not &quot;untouched&quot;. It's also been through four or five hands and almost 50 years. What we do know is the hood and the front bumper are not original. If those two had not been touched and the grill was black it would be easier for me to accept it as a factory anomaly just being honest. But with an anomaly of a grill sitting directly in between two parts that are known to be non original to the car, well quite frankly it becomes a tougher sell. Its a not my car but I'd sure be proud to own it no matter how that grill wound up there! m

[wundercluck]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: camaromb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When did the standard '69 Camaro grille start being produced in a black plastic rather than the off-white we are most familiar with on original cars? The NOS grilles have been black for many years. I believe the factory RS grilles were formed in black plastic for the '69 production rather than the off-white, at least what I have seen on some original cars. </div></div>

So did they even produce black non RS grilles back in the day?

[Tracker1]

Sorry JL8Tom, I hope all this grille <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif doesn't scare/piss you off. As our newest member with a way cool Z28, I for one would like you to stick around and show us more of it.

[bergy]

Phil - what does a copy of an outgoing quality audit that shows a bunch of fit and finish errors have to do with installing a wrong grille? Do you have audits that show wrong grille?

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> As one who worked on the assembly line around this time period (St. Louis not Norwood), it always frustrates me to somewhat cavalierly assume that anomalies like this were simply &quot;worker error&quot;. I was the &quot;replacement employee&quot; and did every job on the line as part of my education. I can assure you that I would never have gotten away with selecting a wrong part that was as easy to spot as a grille. The guys around me were smart &amp; cared about the product that was rolling down the line. They were like hawks, waiting for the &quot;new guy&quot; to make a mistake &amp; teasing the crap out of him! New employees weren't just thrown into production without someone keeping an eye on them (early in the shift - relief men were available). Maybe hard to believe in this day of robots, but we really did look over each other's shoulder. The line workers were acquaintances and/or friends of the inspectors and repairmen down the line - it wasn't like they were 50 miles away in another town! Mistakes created work for them &amp; they were NOT happy about it.
There are other, IMO more likely, explanations - like damage in transit, changed out later because someone thought it looked cool, etc. Also curious that the hood has been replaced - could the grille have been damaged/stolen at the same time? No disrespect to the production superintendent (I was one too). If you ask - is something &quot;possible&quot;, you get a different answer than if you ask what the more &quot;likely&quot; explanation is.
OK - sorry for the rant - had to defend my fellow employees! </div></div>



Your post leaves the impression that all plants were like your line.

The audit process sheet that I provided is instructive as to the defect count which is an obvious indicator as to build quality.

If you look at the kinds of defects recorded and the quantities it becomes a sample proposition for a reader to understand what the quality standards were for assembly when the line was ran at a break neck pace in a divorce RPO environment where replacement workers were placed on an element with two minutes of On the Job instruction and then expected to keep up.

Minor mistakes were common as were build configuration errors.

[Lynn]

1. I have no doubt the wrong color grill &quot;could&quot; have been installed. Seems like more than one person would have had to screw up, though. Although the car did not make it out of the plant, there was a Chevette built in the OKC plant in the late 70's with Chevette emblem on one side and Pontiac T100 emblem on the other. &quot;Could&quot; that car have been delivered to a dealer, then bought? Sure, but it wasn't.

2. I also have no doubt that Tom believes this car came with a black grill. But, being that he was the third owner, that is a pretty bold statement to make with certainty. One would have to have a picture of it coming off the transport truck to the dealership to prove it. Maybe owner number one will surface with that picture. It was special ordered. He wouldn't be the first owner to be waiting at the dealership when it arrived. Would like to see the order form. Just special paint couldn't account for a black grill.

[Kurt S]

I will note that the workers were/are sharp. As Bergy notes, these guys lived and knew the configurations, especially with only one body style. Always interesting to watch the line guys do an audit inspection - they see details that noone else every would. The inspectors had looked over one car and then a woman from the line walked up and pointed out one of the emblems was barely attached, among other issues.

[olredalert]

----To true, Lynn! A long time ago my wife Jan was in route sales. Parent company gave her a new Plymouth Horizon, or a new Dodge Omni? One side had Horizon emblems and the other side had Omni emblems. True,,,Ask Cousin Eddy......Bill S

[bigjake]

True! Saw it with my own eyes! Built in Belvidere, Illinois!

[70 copo]

In 1980 I was at Marcy Chevrolet watching A GMC pick up getting unloaded from the carrier. Now this got my attention for two reasons - the color was Tangier orange, and White two toned and I was at a Chevy Dealer.... .


GMC grille, Chevy Silverado dressed on the drivers side with a Chevy tail gate.

All GMC emblems on the passenger side.

[camaromb]

# 59 ZL1 Camaro, Hugger Orange with style trim had black pin stripes on one side, white on the other from the factory.

[olredalert]

----We used to call our mixed breed Chrysler product &quot;the Horomni&quot;. It seemed to fit the car!......Bill S

[earntaz]

What about the Ford Taurus CL that had the “Taurus” and “CL” swapped end to end – CL was in front of Taurus. ...

[njsteve]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: earntaz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about the Ford Taurus CL that had the “Taurus” and “CL” swapped end to end – CL was in front of Taurus. ... </div></div>

Without getting too graphic are you saying it spelled CL-TAURUS? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif

Now that is a great assembly line practical joke!

[Jonesy]

Haha Steve, now that's funny!

Cool JL8 car, hope he didn't get scared off.

[DW31S]

I have seen more than a few factory screw-ups over the years and have ordered (for retail sold orders) a number of cars that weren't on the standard color/interior available choices. I've seen Delta 88s with Buick emblems on one side, Oldsmobiles with Buick wheel covers, Oldsmobiles with Buick interiors, etc., so line mistakes do happen. I've also seen brand new cars come right off the transporter with paint work; there is/was a repair facility for minor damages sustained on the line. I've see cars delivered with missing options, listed on the bill of laden, but not on the car. I think we need to determine if there has been any black paint applied to that grill or if it has been replaced, which should be rather easy to discern. And, yes, the &quot;CL-Taurus&quot; is a good one!

[earntaz]

Bingo -- supposedly it belonged to an older lady school teacher and she drove the car for over six months before her servicing Ford dealership noticed it. She couldn't figure out why so many drivers were smiling when they passed her. Caused a big stink at Ford -- never heard of the outcome. TAZ <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif

[olredalert]

----And...as several of you know, Red Alert was delivered to Bob Hamilton with an LS5 redline tach. I got so sick of all the doubters that I took the tach out and touched it up.......Bill S

[DW31S]

And, I'll add another scenario that I am guilty of, although many, many years ago. At time of delivery if something was askew on said new car delivery all bets were off. We'd do whatever we had to get the car &quot;over the curb&quot;.....literally. Change wheels, radios, trim items, etc. Our &quot;New Car Get Ready Dept.&quot; was like mayhem almost all of the time. We were delivering close to 350 new Oldsmobiles every month and were always robbing Peter to pay Paul. The mgr. of &quot;Get Ready&quot; had the neatest little gadget that I always liked, but never got and have never seen another; remember the little glass jars of lacquer touch up paint? Well, he had a little gun that screwed to the paint jar and had a hose that attached to a mounted tire....and....voila! Instant paint gun! Anyway, my point is some unorthodox stuff happened prior to the customer taking delivery. Fleet deals weren't as important, but they still had to get &quot;down the road&quot; and the parts pilfering affected them too.
I hear ya Loud-n-Clear on the wrong redline tach, Bill. Honestly, I'm not surprised it had the wrong one installed.

[bcmiller]

But back to THIS car....

[Kurt S]

Actually, let's go back to the Taurus for a second. There never was a CL model. L, GL, LX, SHO, etc, but no CL.
Sounds like an urban legend. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[earntaz]

Great -- I just knew FORD could never make a mistake like that ... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/haha.gif

[bcmiller]

Well I hope Tom does come back and post in this thread, and I hope he was able to talk to the original owner.

[William]

Last January at Russo-Steele I spoke with some guy that said he bought a new '69 Z/28 with a Turbo 400. Other old tales include factory LT-1s, headers, cross-rams. I have little faith in what even an original owner remembers about a car they owned 47 years ago.

I would like to see backside photos of the grille, removed from the car.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh-oh.... Another potential &quot;evening orchid&quot; thread. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif </div></div>

Yep...I do not think the owner of the car will be back any time soon at this point. That's sad for the rest of us who are not trying to poke the bear.

[William]

So what you want is an environment where anyone can claim anything they want as original. No proof required.

Maybe I'm not as gullible as &quot;the rest of us.&quot;

[X66 714]

The owner was here 5 minutes ago. He's watching &amp; reading even if he's not posting...Joe

[markinnaples]

Maybe there should be an attitude of healthy skepticism, but with an open mind as well until evidence and/or pictures show up so they can be judged accordingly? Scaring off someone who may have something that is different than what is known or accepted as correct now really inhibits us from learning anything new.
Just my opinion.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: William</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what you want is an environment where anyone can claim anything they want as original. No proof required.

Maybe I'm not as gullible as &quot;the rest of us.&quot; </div></div>


William since you are addressing me I will reply. So many missed opportunities to learn new things and I see this car and thread as yet another missed opportunity.

Research needs to actually accomplish &quot;research&quot;. If you are not open to new developments and looking at cars that might challenge the existing norm then you are pushing a technical consensus ideology and that's ok--let's just not confuse the two.

[JL8Tom]

I do appreciate everyone's expertise and thoughtful insight. My intent was not to insult or question anyone's knowledge or their years of research but instead to perhaps add something to the pool on knowledge.

Re: &quot;I would like to see backside of the grill, removed from car&quot;

I would be happy to take pictures of the grill. Exactly which area of the grill would you like to see?

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/09/full-20134-48367-z28_001.jpg

[William]

Why on earth do you interpret my questioning his claim as a &quot;missed opportunity?&quot; I didn't dismiss this as crap. I requested the grille be removed and the backsides photographed. That may possibly establish once and for all how the car was built. I am completely open to leaning the truth here. As Mark stated it is healthy skepticism.

It has been established that a '69 Z/28 was built with red stripes.
It has been established that a '69 Z/28 was built with an X11 body tag.
It has been established that some '69 Z/28s were built with incorrect rear stripes.

Why do you think the CRG exists Phil? Why do you think Barrett-Jackson employs one of our Core Members to examine cars consigned at their auctions?

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: William</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why on earth do you interpret my questioning his claim as a &quot;missed opportunity?&quot; I didn't dismiss this as crap. I requested the grille be removed and the backsides photographed. That may possibly establish once and for all how the car was built. I am completely open to leaning the truth here. As Mark stated it is healthy skepticism.

It has been established that a '69 Z/28 was built with red stripes.
It has been established that a '69 Z/28 was built with an X11 body tag.
It has been established that some '69 Z/28s were built with incorrect rear stripes.

Why do you think the CRG exists Phil? Why do you think Barrett-Jackson employs one of our Core Members to examine cars consigned at their auctions? </div></div>

William,

No reply is needed. Any reply feeds the demagogue narrative .

Tom is back. Let's have a look at the car again shall we?

[70 copo]

Tom,

Pictures of the Grille and its fasteners from various angles please...

[Charley Lillard]

You two behave. Tom We would love to see any backside pics of the grill.

[70 copo]

As found please. Do not remove it.

[William]

Having dismantled plenty of '69s back in the day I know what I expect to see. Others may also know and commenting about it here doesn't help.

Photographing it in the car is better than nothing but could establish that it was molded in off-white plastic. With the hood open, take photos of the backside and inside top. If you can, get photos of the underside also.

If the grille is molded in black plastic we are back to square one. Doesn't prove it was built with it.

Removing the grille is some work; the bumper, headlamp bezels and grille reinforcement have to be removed first. Paint could be scratched and parts damaged. And it may not prove anything. I'd rather let sleeping dogs lie than risk any of that. I understand if you would rather not.

[JL8Tom]

X33
Factory Installed JL8 Option(documented with POP)
Stripe Delete &quot; -- &quot; Paint Code
Headlight Washers (only a handful of non-RS cars had this option)
Custom Interior with fold down rear seat
Rear Window Defroster
Radio Delete
No Console
No Tachometer (Gas gauge only)
Originally ordered with an Endura Bumper (Has chrome bumper now, I did that when I owned the car the first time around.)
There is a guy named Tony N. from California (at that time) on this site that I sold the Endura Bumper to, he actually helped me locate the car, long story, happy ending. Car was buried in a garage since 1985, that NJ Inspection sticker is still in the window.

Original paint and interior.

I was the third owner, purchased the car with 12,000 miles on it, personally knew the second owner, have spoken on the phone with the original owner, I sold it in 1977 with 14,000 miles on it, purchased it back with 22,000 miles on it.

[William]

We had a Dusk Blue JL8 stripe delete Z/28 stored in the building in my CPX days. Probably around 1990 or so. Story was it was purchased in Denver by a member of the Air Force who was from Milwaukee originally.

While I don't believe it is the same car, it is quite a coincidence.

[olredalert]

----As I think I said earlier, there was apparently a 3rd Dusk Blue stripeless 69 Z. I saw it at a Chevy dealership in Newton Ma. prior to delivery to the new owner. It was loaded with options and made quite an impression on me. I never saw it again, however. Triple coincidence!......Bill S

[William]

I vaguely recall it had an aftermarket wood steering wheel and I think black houndstooth. It was either a nice restoration or original. Almost certainly still around.

[JL8Tom]

This car was delivered to Zabriskie Chevy in Paterson, NJ and never left the state. Zabriskie Chevy has been closed for years. In speaking to the original owner he had a friend at the dealership and ordered the car as it was delivered. It is a very early May build car.

[bcmiller]

Looking forward to the photos Tom. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[WorkinProgress]

Mark,

The black plastic standard grill shows available in my 12-1-68 parts book along with the standard silver grill.

January 1973 the standard silver grill was discontinued and you were to use the standard black grill as its replacement.

There are also two grills for R.S., one silver and one black.

- Warren

[camaromb]

Warren,
It's surprising that the black standard grille was available that early considering it is not what was used in production?
Mark

[X66 714]

SS cars had black grills...Joe

[JL8Tom]

Attached are pictures of original grill. It appears to have originally been a silver grill painted black, surprisingly done sometime prior to my ownership the first time around, I purchased it the first time with 12,000 miles on it. I doubt the factory or dealership would have painted it black. A NOS grill came with the car when I purchased it the second time. Original grill had a crack in it and that owner purchased a new one (see attached tag from box), it is black. I replaced the original grill with the NOS Black grill, never gave it a second thought thinking the black grill was correct, I did keep the original grill thankfully, oh well live and learn. I do like the look of the black grill. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/09/full-20134-49546-20160907_195531.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/09/full-20134-49547-20160907_195607.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/09/full-20134-49548-20160907_195649.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/09/full-20134-49549-20160907_195915.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/09/full-20134-49551-20160907_200336.jpg

[JL8Tom]

one more picture

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/09/full-20134-49554-20160907_200027.jpg

[JL8Tom]

ok, that pic didnt come out so good.......

[70 copo]

Tom,

Thanks for clearing that up... Now let's see more of this great car! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[Kurt S]

Thanks!
That's real proof, not musings or recollections. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[bigsixman]

Thanks for taking the time to post the correct information concerning your grill.

[lowmile]

Excellent work! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif When pressed many folks would have just packed it in and left everyone to wonder. Kudos to you for setting the record straight.Guys like you are what make this hobby great. M

[Lynn]

Some Z's just look better with the black grill.
I had a 69 Z, Cortez Silver, and purposely repainted the grill black.

[NorCam]

Great thread,

I bought an old race car last year that hadn't been on the road since late 1970. The original owner has now become a pretty good friend as well as a source for old photos of the car dating back to when he owned and raced the car from 1969 onward. After seeing pictures of the car in street trim from 1970 with a flat hood, I asked him when he changed the hood to the raised cowl and asked why the grill was now black. He replied that he ordered the factory cowl hood and he sounded pretty sure of himself. Not to argue I referenced the pics he sent me from 1970 and told him they clearly showed a flat hood and a silver grill. He said he couldn't recall why the grill would have been changed (maybe color preference) and then sort of recalled that the hood was dealer installed just before it was taken off the road and converted to Super Stock in around 71. All pictures of the car show the cowl hood from about 72 onward.

Point here is that original owners of 47 years can often be incorrect on certain statements or aspects of a car, and often forget things they may have changed or thought were once factual about the car. I'm really glad mine still had the original rubber bumper, and after reading this thread I will now inspect the black grill that came in it to see if it's in fact white underneath? Good read here and thanks for sticking around throughout the debate Tom. That's a very nice car you have there!

I would love to see more of the car including pictures of the interior, engine bay and underside. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[DW31S]

I would love to see pics of the race car discussed above by NorCam. I know my '69, and many, many like it that were bought and built to race had &quot;custom&quot; paint jobs very early in life, and the entire grill (including the surrounds) were painted black. I'd venture to say more were painted black than weren't. I have pictures of mine with 3 entirely different race paint jobs and the grill was black in every one of them.

[NorCam]

Not to hi-jack the thread, but here's a link to some pictures Dave Member Rides - My not so little 69 Project (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/672350/my-not-so-little-69-project#Post672350)