#13 is lucky if you are a Camaro Engineering Pilot

[70 copo]

Our dear Friend and second owner of 1966 Norwood Camaro Pilot Prototype #13 Has decided to allow Pilot car registry to become the third owner of this spectacular original car. Car was picked up today and will Join N100001. #13 is very cool with a 327 and a power glide. Vert top is the original.

This car is beyond cool, Here is owner Tom Reuss and wife loading the car in the trailer and saying bye.

<span style="font-weight: bold">What we know about this car</span>:

N100013, “The Gear &amp; Axle Test Car”, was delivered on May 31, 1966 from Fisher Body as coach #DD16D. Like all F-Body Pilot Prototypes at Norwood, it started its hand built assembly in consecutive VIN number order as the thirteenth build.

One of one on Fleet and Special Order # 5A-26, This red on black convertible was the fifth convertible ever built.

With a 327 cubic inch power plant and a power-glide automatic transmission, its lack of presence in photo shoots at General Motors proving grounds make it an elusive piece of Camaro history.

It was required to be received by C. Caswell at the General Motors Proving Grounds on or around June 14, 1966 for testing.

NCRS certificates show #13 being returned to corporate, Zone 0.

[markinnaples]

Unbelievably cool.

[ne70ss]

Wow!

[ZLP955]

Phil you stated &quot;Our dear Friend ....... Has decided to allow Pilot car registry to become the third owner&quot;; could you please explain who is, or what makes up, the entity 'Pilot car registry'? Is it part of GM Heritage?

[earntaz]

Way too COOL!!! TAZ

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLP955</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Phil you stated &quot;Our dear Friend ....... Has decided to allow Pilot car registry to become the third owner&quot;; could you please explain who is, or what makes up, the entity 'Pilot car registry'? Is it part of GM Heritage? </div></div>


It is a team of very dedicated and gifted automobile researchers that collaborates with General Motors, GM Heritage Center, the Historic Vehicle Association, and other entities.

Its mission statement is to document and protect the integrity of the GM pilot prototype program and the ten remaining confirmed examples.

Pilot car registry was founded by Logan N Lawson.....is staffed by his father, Corey N Lawson, logistics and research specialist Jamie N Schwartz, and myself as a research and content consultant.

In addition there are several other content and research specialists that prefer to not be recognized at this time,

With a ridiculously large body of research information generated to date, all of it is published free of charge on a website that currently contains over 39 GB of historical provenance.....it is unlike any historical service that has ever existed for the automotive enthusiast. Please visit at www.pilotcarregistry.com (http://www.pilotcarregistry.com)

[1967Z28]

Cool car. Interesting that it was built in May but the NCRS doc notes the GM official production date as August 10.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1967Z28</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cool car. Interesting that it was built in May but the NCRS doc notes the GM official production date as August 10. </div></div>

Hi Jon,

That's a great question and I am glad you asked! We were able to ascertain quickly that the NCRS provided shipper information was a forced value by GM to meet the model year data requirements. On the other hand the dealer ship to information was determined to be correct.

These prototypes were deployed all across the country outside of typical shipping protocols of assembly line general production vehicles and all the shipping dates for the Pilot cars all received the exact same forced value for the shipper. Visit the pilot statistics page here for a complete break down here:

http://www.pilotcarregistry.com/pilot-program-statistics.html

[70 copo]

Jon, while I have you here- I have been interested to ask you about the history you have put together on your fantastic Z/28... It looks like you have determined it to be the first one built? What do you have on this? Looks like a terrific car with great history tell us more please...

For those who might not know here is Jon's car getting some PR: http://lompocrecord.com/news/local/lompo...03049abf76.html (http://lompocrecord.com/news/local/lompoc-resident-displaying-restored-first-ever-camaro-z/article_aadd4d53-5be0-5442-b9bd-c003049abf76.html)

[1967Z28]

Thanks for the info, Phil.

Not to muddy up your Pilot Car thread, further info on my car can be seen in this thread... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/97117/1

and also in this one... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/624547/all/jon-mello-s-1-z-28

I'm happy to talk more in depth if you want to give me a call.

[70 copo]

Jon,

Yes I am aware of the threads from 04 and 15. Just wanted to see if you had found any additional info since. Fair enough-back to regularly scheduled programming. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif

[70 copo]

Here is the document and owner history files that came with the car. This will take several hours to review.

[Verne_Frantz]

Phil,
I'm confused why you'd call this car both a Pilot AND a Prototype. Those two kinds of cars were vastly different, with a prototype having mostly hand made parts, while the pilot cars were intended to have production parts on them for test fitting and to write assembly instructions from them. To save costs, some pilot cars were first built one way, then taken apart and rebuilt with other options.
Prototypes were never assigned VINs as far as I know.

Verne

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Verne_Frantz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Phil,
I'm confused why you'd call this car both a Pilot AND a Prototype. Those two kinds of cars were vastly different, with a prototype having mostly hand made parts, while the pilot cars were intended to have production parts on them for test fitting and to write assembly instructions from them. To save costs, some pilot cars were first built one way, then taken apart and rebuilt with other options.
Prototypes were never assigned VINs as far as I know.

Verne </div></div>


Verne,

That's a good question so lets get to it... at the risk of splitting hairs lets see what the Merriam-Webster Dictionary says about &quot;prototype&quot;first...

Full Definition of prototype:

1. An original model on which something is patterned
2. An individual that exhibits the essential features of a later type
3. A standard or typical example
4. A first full-scale and usually functional form of a new type or design of a construction

In each of the 4 applications above the term &quot;Prototype&quot; is exactly correct when referring to the Norwood Camaro pilots.

There will always be debate on some issues and the pilot function at Norwood is no different, however when the you understand and accept the fact that in the context of assembly line element proofing, RPO time validation, and AIM finalization the pilot Program as it functioned at Norwood in the spring of 1966 was at the plant level also assembly line prototype work right down to the term &quot;Hand Made&quot; found on many of the early sheet metal parts.

There is an excellent article that appeared in MCR recently where Pilot Car Registry clarified this matter in detail.

Please have a look here: http://pilotcarregistry.com/assets/mcr-feb-edition0002.jpg

[bergy]

Bob Lund was a bean counter that came up through sales &amp; marketing - not surprised pilot &amp; prototype got mixed up.

[Verne_Frantz]

Phil,
I certainly don't want to start a argument but since Chevrolet used both terms, it stands to reason that they each had their own meaning (regardless of Webster) and were applied to different kinds of cars. I'll go by the information I received by someone who was there both as an engineer and manager at that time.

Verne

[70 copo]

Verne,

There is zero Sarcasm here just supported facts. Fair enough.... You go with your guy who has an opinion and he may be correct for another facility/Plant. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

In this specific discussion I will go with the guys who built XP-836 and the Pilot group coordinator for Norwood.

The coordinator was James Seim who worked out of Norwood starting in 1950's and was reassigned to Flint starting in 1965 specifically to coordinate the XP-836 launch and the spring 1966 build at Norwood.

Make no mistake, these guys used the term Pilot and Prototype interchangeably when speaking about this activity which was all new for Norwood and for GM as the building of &quot;Pilots&quot; and &quot;assembly line prototypes&quot; was sent to the Prime assembly plant in a significant group for the first time.

[JoeC]

nice to see the #13 Camaro has survived

Is it shown in any of the vintage GM film such as the 1967 Camaro Jam Handy Films on YouTube?

[cook_dw]

If you have never been in the R&amp;D thru manufacturing/production industry then it is hard to understand how the terms are used and interchanged.. Being in this industry my entire career it is understandable how the terms where used at the same time and mean the same.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">nice to see the #13 Camaro has survived

Is it shown in any of the vintage GM film such as the 1967 Camaro Jam Handy Films on YouTube? </div></div>

Joe,

Not GM... but we feel strongly that it made a photo shoot at Milford Proving Ground along with a Blue coupe. After looking at the destinations of the other potentials including usage and ship to locations we then evaluated, 20, 27 or 31 as possibilities.

We settled solidly on #13 for this photo with a simple hubcap/bumperette switch made prior to the photo shoot. #13 was in the right place at the right time the Pilot book destination matches and the option content fits perfectly.

[70 copo]

I would rock that car today with the mag caps... what do you guys think? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif

[cook_dw]

If that is the same car as #13 then it would have the holes in the trunk area just below the bumper for the full bumper guards vs the bumperettes that are currently on there. Also didn't the pilot and very early cars that got guards did not have the rubber cushions.??.. Or was that a situation where there were 2 suppliers?

[iluv69s]

Neat car and thanks to all for the hard work in documenting these rare vehicles !! I assume that these cars got assigned and distributed to dealers after GM was done w them? Were they then sold as used cars?

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cook_dw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If that is the same car as #13 then it would have the holes in the trunk area just below the bumper for the full bumper guards vs the bumperettes that are currently on there. Also didn't the pilot and very early cars that got guards did not have the rubber cushions.??.. Or was that a situation where there were 2 suppliers? </div></div>

Darrel,

We are evaluating to see if the bumperettes were properly physically attached to the car or staged for the photos using something else to attach them for the photo shoot?? Yes we will be looking for the holes during the restoration.

BTW... good news- #N100013 is getting Lacquer paint just like N100001 did.

[427TJ]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would rock that car today with the mag caps... what do you guys think? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif </div></div>

Needs spoilers, cowl hood, Z stripes, SS emblems and Rallys. (Just kidding.)

[earntaz]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427TJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would rock that car today with the mag caps... what do you guys think? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif </div></div>

Needs spoilers, cowl hood, Z stripes, SS emblems and Rallys. (Just kidding.) </div></div>

And don't forget the Stink Bug slant ...

[68l30]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would rock that car today with the mag caps... what do you guys think? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif </div></div>

I like the omission of the emblems and the lack of blackout on the pot metal, tail bezels. Looks good to me.


Phil,

Any research done on the 68's, Pilot/ Prototype? I have some neat pics from a 68 Z that spent time in R &amp; D with some weird stuff on it...I'm sure others know the car,red,black rally rims,sold out of Applegate....mostly factory paint and basically untouched.

BIG

[cook_dw]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 68l30</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Any research done on the 68's, Pilot/ Prototype? I have some neat pics from a 68 Z that spent time in R &amp; D with some weird stuff on it...I'm sure others know the car,red,black rally rims,sold out of Applegate....mostly factory paint and basically untouched.

BIG </div></div>

Care to send the pics my way?

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 68l30</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would rock that car today with the mag caps... what do you guys think? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif </div></div>

I like the omission of the emblems and the lack of blackout on the pot metal, tail bezels. Looks good to me.


Phil,

Any research done on the 68's, Pilot/ Prototype? I have some neat pics from a 68 Z that spent time in R &amp; D with some weird stuff on it...I'm sure others know the car,red,black rally rims,sold out of Applegate....mostly factory paint and basically untouched.

BIG </div></div>


Steve,

Yes... on the 1968 car click Here: http://www.pilotcarregistry.com/special-model-trivia.html

Also interesting tidbits to come... Here: http://www.pilotcarregistry.com/prototype-engineering-reports.html

Enjoy <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[cook_dw]

The vin on the 68 looks funky..

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cook_dw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The vin on the 68 looks funky.. </div></div>

Agreed. That's why it is posted in the trivia section. We have made no effort to validate the owners information on this car.

[scuncio]

Great history on the '67. Glad you are documenting this information with first-hand sources.

[1967Z28]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Steve,

Yes... on the 1968 car click Here: http://www.pilotcarregistry.com/special-model-trivia.html

Also interesting tidbits to come... Here: http://www.pilotcarregistry.com/prototype-engineering-reports.html

Enjoy <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif </div></div>

I have the '67 Z docs. Was told by GM not to share them publicly. Congrats on getting permission to do so. Did you get the VINs of the first 25?

I have an original copy of the Concealed Windshield Wipers report. Kind of a neat historical piece.

[JoeC]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
We are evaluating to see if the bumperettes were properly physically attached to the car or staged for the photos using something else to attach them for the photo shoot?? Yes we will be looking for the holes during the restoration.

BTW... good news- #N100013 is getting Lacquer paint just like N100001 did. </div></div>

could the bumperettes have been added to the photo by airbrush?

It was common back in the day to add or remove options or emblems by airbrush like to day you can alter a photo digitally with Photoshop

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1967Z28</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Steve,

Yes... on the 1968 car click Here: http://www.pilotcarregistry.com/special-model-trivia.html

Also interesting tidbits to come... Here: http://www.pilotcarregistry.com/prototype-engineering-reports.html

Enjoy <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif </div></div>

I have the '67 Z docs. Was told by GM not to share them publicly. Congrats on getting permission to do so. Did you get the VINs of the first 25?

I have an original copy of the Concealed Windshield Wipers report. Kind of a neat historical piece. </div></div>

Jon,

From my prospective we were able to build on the relationship created during the research for my book &quot;Echoes of Norwood&quot;.

I have asked Corey Lawson to opine further on his perspective on the research and how it happens with respect to the pilot car registry site:

&quot; I suppose working in collaboration with the General Motors Heritage Center is like proving your moxy in a difficult situation. They are accustomed to being called upon to constantly help with the projects of others and being forgotten afterwards. These projects are most often attempted from the ease of a computer keyboard without the investment of human interaction. Consequently, the relationships never gain the traction of being unemcumbered by the issues of trustworthiness. If you are a reader of the content of pilot car registry, you will know that the vast majority of research is done in person and substantial relationships are forged in trust and integrity. Our relationships with Greg Wallace, Christo Datini, and John Kyros have been forged in this way. Not only do we document the pilot prototypes, but we have single handedly documented the Electric Drive Divisions activities within General Motors during the 1960's. This was done at the bequest of Christo Datini to fully document Electrovaire II and Electrovan. Both are vehicles owned and
showcased by the museum. This research comprised a substantial investment of time and financial outlay to achieve. The end result is over 2,000 pages of original documents that were obtained by Pilot Car Registry from the hands of the men that built these programs. All of these documents, as well as, the executive summary will be offered to the Heritage Center without compensation. Upon full disclosure of our relationship interactions with the General Motors
Heritage Center.....it becomes a template for others to follow that wish to enjoy the full cooperation of their archives and documentation. And in extraordinary circumstances.....even leads to extaordinary gestures.....as seen in the letter of recommendation for collegiate acceptance provided by Mark Reuss to Logan Lawson, (my son) the founder of Pilot Car Registry&quot;.

&quot;Additionally, all parties agree in principal to share the aforementioned research without monetary gain. Very often, this is not the objective in mind for people requesting the help of the Heritage Center&quot;.

&quot;And finally-relationships that are based upon truth and integrity respond well when the parties are requested to work jointly in corporate displays for General Motors. This is the picture of the involvement of Pilot Car Registry at the unveil of the 2016 Camaro at Belle Isle and the participation of these researchers at the Kettering Benefit Auction at Barrett Jackson 2016&quot;.

Corey Lawson

[70 copo]

Jon,

You also asked about the VIN's of the 67 Z/28's - yes we have the list however we are going to protect it at this time.

It's a totally different position than sharing the pilot/prototype VIN's.....those builds are all about protecting proprietary cowl tag info and pilot, prototype, and handmand parts and their respective markings.

As of now assembly line Z cars have vins protected on the site.

[1967Z28]

Thanks, Phil.

[cook_dw]

Is this like a secret society?? Where do I go to learn the super secret Moose Lodge hand shake.. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif

[iluv69s]

If I remember, the VINs of thr first 25 Z's were published years ago. I believe it was a the US Camaro club newsletter if I recall.