White-on-white houndstooth '69 with power windows

[scuncio]

Cool car. Would be a looker restored to its original color combo.

http://ebay.to/2gjgxMr

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/FM0AAOSwux5YQJFo/s-l1600.jpg

[Jonesy]

Ya too bad its got a LOS body tag and a Norwood VIN. Something aint right here!!


124379N521236

LOS164985

[scuncio]

I totally missed that. Will email the seller and ask if there's a typo in the VIN.

[Jonesy]

Its gonna have to be a big typo because if you change the N to an L in the VIN, its still way off.

[JohnTheobald]

Guys, this is my Camaro. I was just made aware of this today by somebody who noticed the N in the VIN code. I bought this car when I was 17 years old (I'm 47 now). My family flew out to CA from IL with the intention of driving home a 1969 Camaro that I was getting my first loan from a bank to purchase. We didn't have a car in mind, we just flew out and bought a bunch of auto traders and newspapers and spent a week driving all over southern California looking for the perfect one. I was told by the seller that this was an all original 1969 with a 327 and a powerglide...he said the only thing that wasn't original was the red paint and that it was originally white. I still have the ad from the Auto Trader magazine that I've kept for 30 years. Back then I had no knowledge of cowl tags, what the VIN numbers decoded to, etc... this was just a cool car and I bought it. It came with what I assumed was a genuine California pink slip and we drove it back to IL and registered it using the VIN that is in the dash. I still have the original bank papers showing the VIN on the loan documents.

So, after learning about this discrepancy, I located one of the "hidden" VINs up by the passenger side under the upper cowl. The partial VIN located there is 9L509293. Clearly, the two don't match, but the one under the upper cowl would be appropriate for the LOS body tag. I understand there is another VIN behind the A/C blower motor opening, but I'm hesitant to tear that apart to see what it is because it hasn't been apart since I've owned it and I don't want to cause any damage to it.

Afraid that one, or both, of the VINs were from a stolen vehicle, I ran both of them through the NICB stolen car database and came up with nothing. I also checked at the CheckThatVin.com site for a history and nothing. Carfax was also useless because they only go back to 1981. I've even contacted a friend of mine who is an Illinois State Trooper and he's running both VINs through their Motor Theft Task Force to see if they can find out anything about them.

If anybody here has any suggestions on how I can get definitive information on the origins of both VINs, I'd love to hear them. I've owned this car since 1986 and the whole time had absolutely no idea there was a discrepancy between the VIN # and the Cowl tag...never had a reason to care.

All that being said, it's still a very cool car with a rare set of options, and I totally agree...it would look pretty awesome restored back to the original Dover White.

My 12 year old told me he'd be just fine if I end up keeping it. Let him worry about the mismatched VIN numbers after I'm dead!

[427TJ]

My 12 year old told me he'd be just fine if I end up keeping it. Let him worry about the mismatched VIN numbers after I'm dead!

Since you've had the car that long without any VIN issues why not keep it and restore it with your son? He'd remember that for the rest of his life. They're only kids once and you could teach him some valuable skills.

[JohnTheobald]

Well, that's the problem. We just moved from IL to AZ 3 months ago and our new home doesn't have the garage space to keep it. Our daily drivers are sitting in the driveway (against the stupid commie HOA rules) because the Camaro is in the garage. However, that may be what I end up doing...going to look for a place where I can store it and work on it.

[Lynn]

Sorry about your troubles. Guessing you ran the vin as 124379L509293? Just to be safe, might have your buddy also run 123379L509293. It isn't LIKELY, but is POSSIBLE it started life as a six banger, and was converted when the previous owner swapped the vin. He may have used the drivetrain from the donor, and used the VIN to cover up that it started life as a six.

Might check the rivets on the VIN to see if they are rosette rivets. PO may have used the entire dash panel from the "donor" car.

Once both possible VIN's are checked out, and you know for certain the car is not a stolen car, it should be possible to get a State assigned VIN. Either way, you should probably pull the ebay ad for now. If you decide to sell after correcting the VIN issue, you can re-list.

Personally, if you still have the auto trader ad, that means you can most likely find the PO, if he is still alive. Most fraud transaction statutes of limitations don't begin to run until the fraud is discovered. Whoever swapped the VIN tag committed a crime, as well as perpetrating a fraud upon you.

Good luck.

[Billohio]

I notice in Ohio that it is unusual to see an LA car. How unusual would it be to come up with a Norwood VIN out there?

[PeteLeathersac]

'

Sorry to read of your troubles too but welcome here John!
Do you have or know what CA plate was registered to the car also the Prev' Owner's phone # from the old ad?
Best of luck sorting things out!
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[JohnTheobald]

Here is the original ad along with the license plate ...

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/12/full-20276-53620-camaro_ad_1986.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/12/full-20276-53621-img_2273.jpg

Not sure what the area code would have been back then ... can't remember exactly what town it was in either...thinking it was Fullerton or Anaheim area ... I remember our hotel was in Buena Park and it wasn't too far from where we stayed.

[PeteLeathersac]

'
Sorry but there's a system glitch here posting images sometimes...here's a try @ your pics.
No luck running the plate but I got a hit w/ the Fullerton phone # as '99 Newspaper ad below.
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JohnTheobald</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Here is the original ad along with the license plate ...
Not sure what the area code would have been back then ... can't remember exactly what town it was in either...thinking it was Fullerton or Anaheim area ... I remember our hotel was in Buena Park and it wasn't too far from where we stayed.

</div></div>-
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/12/full-20276-53620-camaro_ad_1986.jpg
-
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/12/full-20276-53621-img_2273.jpg
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http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/12/full-2506-53624-image.jpg
-

[JohnTheobald]

Thanks...they showed up on the reply preview, but then didn't after I posted it.

[L72copocamaro]

Probably not the original plate. It would most likely have been black and yellow.

[JohnTheobald]

So I checked on that too... according to Wikipedia...

In 1969, the base color was changed to blue with gold lettering. The state name remained embossed.

http://www.lamag.com/driver/the-colorful-history-of-california-license-plates/

[L72copocamaro]

This is from the DMV; CA.gov:

1970 is the year the basic plate was changed to a blue background with yellow characters. It was also the last year any black/yellow plates were issued.

Wikipedia is not always accurate.

[JohnTheobald]

Indeed...first time I've ever quoted Wikipedia and it was wrong ... lol..

I suppose it's still possible, though, for it to be the original plate...a 1969 Camaro could have been first sold in 1970 and issued the new blue plate? Sure wish there was a legitimate source for doing registration searches back that far.

[L72copocamaro]

Yes I agree, it is still possible if the car was a late build and sold very late; maybe a demo or employee car.

The first blue/yellow plate would have been 000 AAA. So you can see your plate was issued quite a while later. Based on a plate number for a new car I bought in 1974, I think your plate was issued in 72/73.

[JohnTheobald]

Thanks to everyone who has responded and/or followed this thread. I just ended my auction and am going to contact the authorities to see if they want to investigate this or what. Assuming this was never a stolen car, I imagine I will then need to apply for a new VIN # from the State of Arizona before I can do anything further with it.

[ZLP955]

You seem like a stand-up guy John, hope you manage to resolve this situation.

[parkbrau]

Car was most likely brought Into Cali after 1970 sometime. Was titled in another state, so when the owner went to get it registered in Cali they issued a cali title and those blue plates.

[JohnTheobald]

Thanks Tim. Just returned from visiting with the Arizona Automobile Theft Authority (I work downtown Phoenix and they are 10 blocks away so I took a walk over there) and they told me to be mentally prepared to lose the car as there's not likely to be any other reason for the dashboard VIN to not match the hidden VIN other than a theft. He did say, however, that it is possible that any potential theft was never reported or the vehicle wasn't insured at the time, so it wouldn't have ever been reported as an insurance claim for theft. If that's the case, then all I have to do is apply for a new VIN with AZ and I'm good to go. I'm now awaiting a call back from a member of the AZ Vehicle Theft Task Force to schedule a time for them to come out and do a physical inspection of the vehicle. I jokingly asked if they'd be bringing a flatbed and they said no...not on the first trip anyway.

[69LM1]

Stand up thing to do..... Respect.

Rich

[resto4u]

When they run the hidden vin#, they should be able to tell you when and where it was last registered under the original factory vin#. Keep us posted!

[seventieshow]

This thread makes me think of &quot;Gone In 60 Seconds&quot;. Good luck to the OP, I hope it all works out, and welcome to Arizona.

[L72copocamaro]

You seem like a stand-up guy John, hope you manage to resolve this situation.

Agreed! It's easy to see you are trying to do the right thing. I hope things resolve in your favor; quickly.

[PeteLeathersac]

'

Stand up guy and then some from what I see of John's actions also class act attitude dealing w/ this whole mess of a situation, especially being a 30 year owner who bought the car @ 17!
Sorry if mentioned already but does the Trim Tag seem to belong to the 9L509293 cowl stamping?
If Tag belongs and cowl w/ stampings original to body also car not built from grafted parts of others...if vehicle not stolen/titled to others and State letting you keep the car but issuing a new VIN # and Tag to affix to the vehicle, it may be worth asking if this new # could be the whole orignal LOS VIN # 124379L509293 or #2 choice, the Norwood VIN # already registered to you as either of these would be better than a State issued random #?
Best of luck w/ everything John!
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[x77-69z28]

Way to go John. It's nice to see someone doing the right thing for a change. If I were you, I would do a little detective work. Try taking the interior trim off and look at the windshield pillar area.the car could have been in an accident, and clipped at the windshield posts. Also, you can see the rivets from under the dash. Check to see if they are star rivets. Pulling the heater box is a lot more work, and I would guess that would match the partial on top of the cowl, but you never know. Best of luck with this endeavor, and thanks for doing the right thing.
Buddy

[ZLP955]

Arizona DMV may not be able to issue a replacement VIN plate with the original GM format. Since the engine is not original (John's ad said it had a 307 before the current 350), there's probably no way to determine if it was an L6 or V8 car - so there are 2 possible VINs:
123379L509293
124379L509293

[ZLP955]

^ checked CRG's Orphans thread and it's not listed - only partials anywhere close are 9L509057 and 9L509892.

[scuncio]

Boy, I had no idea this post would lead to such an unbelievable story. The owner has my utmost respect for doing the right thing!

[TAR6569]

You could find out the correct vin through the NCRS dealer look up. Just say you aren't sure if it is 12337 or 12437. The microfilm will have the correct one.