Window Stickers

[ban617]

Hi , just saw an interesting post from a company that will make you a window sticker & age it .. The place is called Winvoices .com

[cook_dw]

http://www.yenko.net/forum/member.php?u=54078

Paul is his name.

[Mr. Chevy]

Just used them.. They do AWESOME work!! Paul is fast and has great communication with you during the process.

Rich

[Bill Pritchard]

Just used them.. They do AWESOME work!! Paul is fast and has great communication with you during the process.

Rich

x2.....much better than another well-known repro window sticker company.

[PeteLeathersac]

'

Paul's an awesome guy also a great SYC member who regularly shares his amazing database of RPO and Dealer info w/ others here.
When the NCRS doesn't, he often has missing Dealer Codes and other details also has graciously offered help to SYC members in this linked thread...
http://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=137682

:beers:
~ Pete

.

[SeattleCarGuy]

Paul is awesome. I used him for the window sticker on my '69 L78 Nova. First, I had used the other well-known competitor and after providing a copy of my build sheet and listing the options on my car, the other guy sent me a window sticker which left off the L78, the most important part! Paul did a great job and even called the original dealership that sold my car and found out through them that their address in 1969 was slightly different than today. He also got a hold of a retired salesman from that dealership. I was pleased well beyond my expectations.

[CamarosRus]

What other reproduction docs have members here purchased from PAUL ????

[SeattleCarGuy]

I bought the package deal from him of window sticker, car shipper and sales invoice.

[Bill Pritchard]

I bought the package deal from him of window sticker, car shipper and sales invoice.

Me too.

[Kurt S]

I like Paul and he does nice work.
But after one or two owners, these docs almost always become original documentation. I wish they would be marked as reproduction somehow or a list of VIN's maintained and accessible in some form.

[protree68]

I like Paul and he does nice work.
But after one or two owners, these docs almost always become original documentation. I wish they would be marked as reproduction somehow or a list of VIN's maintained and accessible in some form.
I'm with you Kurt who do you sue when you find out you bought a high end car with fake paper ?i think this is really bad for the collector car hobby all the stuff paul makes should be stamped repo someware

[mssl72]

I agree. What if all reproduced paperwork actually has "REPRODUCTION" across it so it could potentially prevent future problems? If you had a car that actually had one of the main docs that people look for, POP, window sticker, or build sheet, what would it really hurt by having "REPRODUCTION" across reproduced paperwork? If you have one of the aforementioned pieces of original paperwork, it shouldn't make a bit of difference. Sure, say, having a window sticker reproduced is nice to have and looks good with any other original documents. You're just having a document replaced, represented. My Caprice doesn't have any paperwork. All physical indicators say it is, what it is. But if I had paperwork made to show with the car I sure would want "REPRODUCTION" across it. If I sold it I wouldn't want it going out with paperwork that somebody could misrepresent it with down the road.

[L78steve]

I wouldn't have a problem with an indication of repro. I have the orig. window sticker that I want to have a copy of due to its delicate condition. It would be nice to have the copy laminated for display.

[mockingbird812]

Steve,

A higher end color photo copy of your WS that you make yourself will look stunning. You may just set yourself up for a firestorm of controversy when you sell your car and there is a very good repro floating around. Which one is real and why would there be a repro floating around if in fact there is an original one? Not worth going down that path, IMHO.

[HawkX66]

I bought a repro window sticker and laminated it so there would be no question that it's not original. No aging etc to try to mislead someone. I don't believe the one I have would need to say "repro" because anyone that matters would know immediately.

[William]

A friend attending Mecum Indy sent photos of two "window stickers." Both are reproductions with obvious errors.

N647976 is noted on the signage as "Original Window Sticker".

N565875 is attached to the car; no mention of it being a reproduction.

This is exactly the problem with fake paperwork.

[camaromb]

Interesting description on N647976, 3 owner? It was owned in NY with an Alabama title and later was owned in FL. It was for sale on Camaros.net in FL about 5 or so years ago for an unusually low price of $85k for such a loaded Canadian Copo? That would be at least 3 owners in the last 10 or so years??

[Jim Ferron]

Some people go nutz when they see a trim tag on ebay [God forbid a vin tag] ...or a re-stamped anything...I mean like 'call the cops' ...

but maybe think nothing of getting patina-ized paperwork that is meant to do nothing but deceive.

The line gets drawn all over the place depending on who is holding the pencil...

[fsc66]

I don't see any links to these pics or to any pages, I'd look to these these window stickers.

Paul

[Mr. Chevy]

I think the window stickers, car shipper forms and other docs that Paul reproduces are cool novelty items to have with your car. I agree that people should not be passing them off as original.

But unfortunately these things happen..

Rich

[ZLP955]

JMHO but I cannot understand why anyone would want to recreate documents for 'novelty' purposes, but wouldn't be happy to have them clearly marked 'reproduction'. You either have original documentation, or you don't.

[HawkX66]

JMHO but I cannot understand why anyone would want to recreate documents for 'novelty' purposes, but wouldn't be happy to have them clearly marked 'reproduction'. You either have original documentation, or you don't.
It's simple. I don't want it to say it because I don't want it to say "reproduction" on it. That's the beauty of freedom. I can do that.
If anyone is foolish enough to believe my laminated brand new document is real and they don't ask me if they're really worried about it, they're an idiot and I really don't care what they think. Honestly, mine stays in my file cabinet anyway. I just like it for myself so I can see what it might have looked like and it's nice to see all my options and their original price tag. Again, it's not aged etc. to mislead anyone.
Since the dawn of time there have been scam artists. That will never change. I don't believe in changing things for everyone because of a few thieves etc. Go after the ones that are actually scamming. Hold them accountable if you want.
JMO and as such might not mean anything to anyone, but me...

[Mr. Chevy]

I say novelty because people like to see them displayed with the car. Some people ask if it's real and I simply say it's not but what the original would have looked like. I think reproduction stamped on them would look dumb. Just my .02...

Rich

[NorCam]

I have no problem with someone displaying Paul's paperwork with a car and truly think he does an "outstanding" job with his invoices and window stickers. Not only that, but I like how far he goes to research the facts on each customers car as well as the background info he often digs up on original dealerships. I have used Paul's services before and while already having had GM of Canada paper to go with that car, he researched facts to discover a few unknown details about the car and the dealership it came from, and did so on his own accord. He then went on to dig up additional promotional material on the original, but then defunct Chevrolet dealership.

Now on the other side of the coin I do recognize the issue with "some people" misrepresenting paper when it comes to selling a car, but to me that is solely on the integrity of the individual seller. Furthermore, I believe it's up to each and every buyer to perform the proper due diligence when buying a car regardless of its value, paperwork claims or the cars actual pedigree. Greed in itself is a funny thing which always brings fraudulent acts out of the shadows and stamping paper with the words "Reproduction" is not going to stop that!!! In fact, it's almost as bad as saying that every reproduced part on the market today should be stamped with words "Reproduction".

Fact is, most of us question almost "any" piece of paper unless there's rock solid ownership history to fact check the lineage of any such piece being claimed as original. IMHO, anyone who buys a vintage muscle car should (must) back check each such claim and if they don't, then bad on the prospective buyer for throwing such caution to the wind!!!

We already have enough trim tag and paperwork cops out there, and with all of the parts being made today that very closely resemble an original part right down to the smallest detail, it's high time that prospective buyers assume more responsibility to ensure they perform their own due diligence and focus on cars that are proven authentic. That or at least properly ascertain the level that the car has actually been restored to, or better yet do it through a certified pro appraiser who knows that cars particular makeup. There are too many would be buyers out there that just go and write the check without knowing what they should be looking for, what they're looking at or who they should hire to inspect a car if they haven't already done the proper homework and background checks.

Just my 2 bits on the matter, and yes I do realize other opinions will differ.

[mr 707]

Nothing wrong with displaying a reproduction document, window sticker, tank stick, whatever. Its when they get represented as real or the sgt schultz excuse i know nothing . Read forgery laws. INTENT to decieve -----> aging a fake document ... MY OPINION

[William]

Both cars crossed the block at Mecum with the fake docs. The auctioneer stated N647976 had an original window sticker. Did not meet reserve.

Nothing was said about N565875; misrepresentation by silence. Hammered for $60k.

[NorCam]

Not to argue the point William {and I do appreciate your pursuit of documentation}, but if I was buying a car worth 60K, I would have personally traveled there to inspect it, or hired a consultant to look at it for me. Anyone failing to do so falls under the term;

Proverb:

a fool and his money are soon parted

It is easy to get money from foolish people.


It is difficult or unlikely that foolish people maintain their hold on acquired wealth.


That in itself is what brings "INTENT" to deceive to the forefront for the curb artists of the world.

[Lee Stewart]

Caveat Emptor

[William]

Here we go again.

1970 Chevelle SS LS-6 454 136370R210143 is being advertised as [quoting the ad]:

Documented, #s match concourse restoration!
#s match throughout and documented.
Has invoice and predelivery inspection which has protect-o-plate imprint.

In addition to the photos of the “paperwork” there are photos of VIN-stamped engine and trans.

Check out the link to an old on-line ad. Was not even an SS; originally a column-shift auto Malibu. No engine, trans, 10 bolt axle. Same VIN as the car currently marketed as an LS-6.

http://www.2040-cars.com/chevrolet/chevelle/1970-chevrolet-chevelle-714726/

[Mr70]

And look who it is selling it..
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-Chevrolet-Chevelle-SS-454-L-S6-/172675106692

Vehicle Description
#s match throughout and documented. Has invoice and predelivery inspection which has protect-o-plate imprint. Also a long detailed list of correct part #s. Just finished a total body off frame restoration. There isn't a piece of this car that isn't restored like new. Even where you can't see. If you take the door panel off you will see the components in the door are detailed to show quality. If you removed the upholstery you will see seat springs that have been stripped primed and painted. Beca...use of the perfect fit and finish this car is considered better then new. Every functional part is restored or new. Only 40 test miles. Every part of the car is correct. From the engine trans and rear to the carb distributor and manifolds. Even down to the correct exhaust with numbered resonaters. Correct pulleys belts radiator smog equipment and more. 450 hp was the highest advertised hp of any American production car. This one is backed by a rock crusher 4-speed and 4.10 posi. It means business! Whether you want an investment a piece of garage jewelry or a neck snapping driver you get all 3 with this car! Invoice Predelivery sheet Power steering Power disc brakes Cowl induction Gauges Console Bucket seats Deluxe tilt wheel 4.10 posi





I've had enough of people contacting me with Q about this car.
As William has shown,and thanks to the internet,do your own homework before purchasing.

[1969l78]

….

[L78steve]

Not sure why anyone would want fake paper work for their car made up. Long after you've owned that car and sold it, someone is probably going to pass it off as real and someone is going to get screwed. But that's just my .02

I have a repro window sticker on one of my cars that matches the original. How will that hurt anyone?

[William]

I have provided examples of repro paperwork being used to fraudulently enhance the value and salability of genuine muscle cars. Two cars at Mecum Indy had fake paperwork displayed with the car. The auctioneer mentioned "original window sticker" when one of them crossed the block.

In the most recent example it is being used to enhance the value and salability of a complete fake LS-6 Chevelle. What more do you need?

If your car is what you say it is why does it need a repro window sticker?

BTW the dealer that has the fake LS-6 was notified yesterday, not by me. As of this am, still unchanged on their site.

[Verne_Frantz]

The easiest way to tell repro paperwork from original is that the new stuff looks new.....UNLESS..........it's aged. That aging is the intent to defraud. And that is the real problem. (IMO)

Verne

[Mr70]

....and the fonts,among other things.

[68l30]

Years ago I took a blank window sticker, cheap one, and added all my Day Two mods to it. Pretty neat to let others know what's been done and play where's Waldo with all the parts. Haven't had it in the car in years.....Yep, guess I still don't need it. :dunno:

BIG

[Verne_Frantz]

....and the fonts,among other things.

That's only true for the die-hards in the hobby who have studied original ones, in which case they can also detect fake ones that have been aged. Once they've been aged, "most" people will believe they are original.
:scholar:

[L78steve]

It up to the purchaser to do their research with any rare item of value. Counterfeiting is not going away.

[Lee Stewart]

Without a Build Sheet a buyer is always going to be in the dark as far as what the car left the factory with or if the car in question is what the seller says it is.

Having a repro Window Sticker isn't going to change that. It's up to the buyer to do due diligence before he commits his money.

It has and always will be Caveat Emptor.

[William]

It up to the purchaser to do their research with any rare item of value. Counterfeiting is not going away.

True but there are varying levels of experience in the market for the cars. I have been virtually exclusively '69 Camaro for almost 42 years, still learning about them. Some of the repro paperwork out there is very well done, more so if it is artificially aged. All they have to do is fool some of the people some of the time.

The problem is the average guy at an auction. Maybe just retired, has money to spend. Unless he is there with Jerry MacNeish how is he to know the paperwork displayed at an auction is real? Barrett-Jackson makes an effort to vet consignments but I have seen repro paperwork there also.

I have no problem with an owner displaying a repro doc at a show. Repro paperwork has no business being displayed with a car offered for sale.

No idea why Chevrolet allows these guys to use their trademarked names and logos without permission.

[HawkX66]

I have no problem with an owner displaying a repro doc at a show. Repro paperwork has no business being displayed with a car offered for sale.
Honestly, I think most of us are in agreement. We're just saying there's nothing wrong with having repro docs for show and personal enjoyment purposes. The problem is when it becomes a counterfeiting issue. As many have brought up time and time again, there are always going to be counterfeiters in everything that has profits attached to it. If anyone thinks stopping these few sellers is going to change anything, I think they're mistaken. It's way too easy in the computer age to recreate any documents.

[SS427]

If these reproduction paperwork sellers want to work with the car community and be on the up and up as well as not condone fraudulent use of their work, I would say the best thing to do on their webpages is to list every VIN of every car that they have made paperwork documents, POPs or cowl tags for. No invasion of privacy here, just a list of the VIN's and what was produced. No harm no fowl. However, when that is suggested everyone freaks out and says no way. Why is that? What are they trying to hide?

Some of this paperwork is getting extremely hard to prove is a reproduction as these guys are getting that good. Now a buyer hires an inspector to inspect a potential purchase and the inspector gives his thumbs up on the car and the paperwork only to find out later that the paperwork was faked. Now we have a liability issue as the inspection gave a letter of authenticity.

If there was a database then all that would have to be done is to look on that database to see that those items were reproductions. Since the reproducer of the paperwork claims they are not trying in any way to be fraudulent and the owner of the car and it's new paperwork claim they only want a facsimile of what GM offered for show purposes, I just cannot understand why no one wants these VIN's to be made public to protect future buyers.

The last thing that troubles me is all these fake pieces or paper are having an effect on cars that have legitimate paperwork and their value. I personally inspect dozens of LS6's around the country every year and have gotten to the point that I don't even want to see your window sticker, dealer invoice or POP as many of the reproductions are so good that you cannot tell the difference so in turn the real items have very little meaning or value anymore.

Bottom line is, if you want a facsimile of paperwork that could have been offered with your car, that is cool. Not wanting to admit that it is a reproduction, having it watermarked as such or having the information made public only shows me that you have something to hide. It is sort of like engine stamps. I would much rather see a CE block in a car than a restamped engine. A CE block leaves nothing to hide whereas a restamped block only puts up a red flag that there may be many other things about the car that are fraudulent.

Flame away.

[Verne_Frantz]

No flame here Rick. I agree with you completely. I do inspections and documentations as well and I'm afraid I might not be able to spot a good repro document (they are getting THAT good). I also have a car with its original docs and I'm afraid if I try to sell it, the docs won't add to the value as they should. And that's a real shame.

It's akin to someone creating fake DNA in a test tube. Then no one can believe the real DNA anymore.

Verne

[HawkX66]

Not wanting to admit that it is a reproduction, having it watermarked as such or having the information made public only shows me that you have something to hide.
Not a flame, but to assume someone has something to hide because they might like to stay private is a slippery slope in the land of the free. That's the same mentality as the folks assuming someone wants to go on a killing rampage because they don't want to register their firearms. Spend your time going after the counterfeiters and other criminals, not guys you have no idea about. Or not...

[StealthBird]

I create reproduction window stickers for 1964-1979 Pontiacs. My window stickers are far more accurate than anything Pontiac fans have had before. I developed my own forms because other reproductions (that are laminated) use a somewhat generic window sticker blank, and sometimes they cover 3 different years with one form. As owners of high end Pontiac show cars become aware of the fact that their reproduction window stickers are inaccurate, they contact me and I create an accurate window sticker for them that's correct for the specific year, model, and plant where their Pontiac was produced. That being said, my reproduction window stickers are for show, NOT to be used to authenticate or validate anything. Thankfully, we have PHS as the rock solid proof against any dishonesty. But there is no way I can control what people do with a reproduction window sticker once they receive them.

However, on my window stickers, I have a very minor deviation from original that tells me immediately it's one of my reproductions and not an original just in case someone tries to age one of my reproductions. I do not disclose what that deviation is, but I have responded to many people asking if a specific window sticker on a car that's being sold is an original or a repop.

For those opposed to Chevrolet reproduction window stickers and docs, this seems to be a minor issue when you have hundreds of restamped blocks, carbs, rear ends, and all sorts of "date coding" going on with restored Yenkos, COPOS, and LS6 cars. Most high end resto shops have no problem restamping a block or carb to complete a "numbers matching" project.

Mike

[SS427]

Posting a car's VIN or at least enough information so that it can be compared to a car in question in no way discloses their personal information nor is it compromised in any way. I also do not believe it should be disclosed in any way nor was I implying that. However, the privacy of the car and/or it's paperwork should be public with regards to fake paperwork. We do that right here on the Yenko board with regards to Yenko VIN's, dealer info, paint color, transmission type and other information and no harm or compromised owner information what so ever. Actually quite the opposite.

I had a reproduction window sticker back in the 90's and in very small print it said "reproduction". I was not trying to make it into anything other than what it was. I have watched these car's reputations slip away over the last several years as many people have just gotten fed up with all the fraudulent things that are being done to this hobby and it sucks. I hear it every day from car owners that no longer have fun in the hobby and just want out. Reality and life's changes yes but it does not mean we should all just shrug it off and become complacent with it. I have NO issues with people creating reproduction cowl tags, window stickers, invoices, buildsheets, whatever, as long as they are upfront about it and most importantly, it is NOT the creator or the purchaser I am worried about, it is the next guy in line that gets screwed.

[HawkX66]

Posting a car's VIN or at least enough information so that it can be compared to a car in question in no way discloses their personal information nor is it compromised in any way. I also do not believe it should be disclosed in any way nor was I implying that. However, the privacy of the car and/or it's paperwork should be public with regards to fake paperwork. We do that right here on the Yenko board with regards to Yenko VIN's, dealer info, paint color, transmission type and other information and no harm or compromised owner information what so ever. Actually quite the opposite.

I had a reproduction window sticker back in the 90's and in very small print it said "reproduction". I was not trying to make it into anything other than what it was. I have watched these car's reputations slip away over the last several years as many people have just gotten fed up with all the fraudulent things that are being done to this hobby and it sucks. I hear it every day from car owners that no longer have fun in the hobby and just want out. Reality and life's changes yes but it does not mean we should all just shrug it off and become complacent with it. I have NO issues with people creating reproduction cowl tags, window stickers, invoices, buildsheets, whatever, as long as they are upfront about it and most importantly, it is NOT the creator or the purchaser I am worried about, it is the next guy in line that gets screwed.
You make some great points Rick, but if the guys are getting out of the hobby because it's not fun any more to them based on the financial aspect of it, I don't think they ever really got it in the first place. That's a discussion for another thread though. Most of us look at these cars as more than just an investment. I know that's not all of us considering the dollars that are involved and I can appreciate that.
I don't want to see original cars not get the respect they deserve because in the back of everyone's mind they don't know if it's real or not. This is one of the reasons I don't care for clones. Back to my original point. Go after the con artists and counterfeiters and fry them. Make it something that's not worth doing anymore. Take action instead of everyone just looking at a known car rolling across the auction block while everyone just shakes their head and complains about it on the internet. Don't get me wrong, I know putting it on the net helps stop possible future issues for someone that actually vets their purchases...

[cook_dw]

This is one of the reasons I don't care for clones.



What is the difference between say someone like me that has a "clone" car (my 67 car if anyone didnt know by now) and you having a repop window sticker? :hmmm:

[HawkX66]

What is the difference between say someone like me that has a "clone" car (my 67 car if anyone didnt know by now) and you having a repop window sticker? :hmmm:
Thats a serious question Darrell? You've been around plenty long enough to know the difference... My laminated piece of printer paper would maybe get one over on a kindegardener, but that's about it. It's in a filing cabinet in my basement. My car has been verified original many times over, so this particular piece of paper means nothing to anyone, but me.

[cook_dw]

Hell yes its a serious question. YOU wont be the last person that owns that car (unless you are buried in it).. You are only the care taker for the next generation or owner. Im not saying you are gonna be the one that will deceive. But you will have NO control of what happens after you are dead and gone.


I am using you and I as examples because we are doing the talking currently.

[cook_dw]

Regardless what anyone thinks about all of this.. As long as there is money to be made things will be reproduced or faked. Thats just the way it is..

[SS427]

Regardless what anyone thinks about all of this.. As long as there is money to be made things will be reproduced or faked. Thats just the way it is..

You are absolutely correct Darrell but that does not mean we cannot police our own people a little better or try to get them to conform a little better (like the producers of products) to try and keep things a little more legit. After all, if we do not buy they do not sell. If we just throw up our hands every time someone commits fraud they will win every time. I have already helped put one guy in jail for building a fake LS6 and passing it off as one, am involved in a lawsuit of another and will do it again without batting an eye.

I lose a little money every year because I do not allow fake cars in my shop. If some of these producers kept things on the up and up (making VIN's available) they would lose a little business as well to those people that are knowingly trying to pass something off and don't want to get caught. I guess my reputation and honor is more valuable than the dollar so maybe I sit alone on these thoughts.

[cook_dw]

Rick dont worry. Im not throwing my hands up. Im just trying to take notes and trying to keep track and keep up.. :wink:

[fsc66]

I have refrained from chiming in as this is a topic because people are very passionate about this subject.
Let's be rationale about this and try to separate the people that will create documents for any car regardless of its rarity or obscurity as long as they see green from the people that actually check into these rare and high value cars and ensure they are what they say. If not, advise the customer the documents will all have watermarks on them unless the information can be corroborated.
Let's also separate the people who will answer anyone who asks as to whether documents they come across are in fact their reproductions. Let's also separate the people who help others identify reproduction documents whenever they are asked whether theirs or someone else’s. Now let's look at the majority of the reproduction documents that are advertised as authentic and who is reproducing those. Let's also look at who reproduces documents that are never found on sites selling cars advertising the docs to be authentic.
When a person knows that the reproduction company will never authenticate their own documents it acts as a deterrent to advertise these docs as real.
We cannot just pile everyone in the same barrel and declare them all as frauds or persons that are helping perpetuate fraud.
I will never make any real money doing this because I think we all know where the real money is.
It would be nice to have a Reproduction business advertised in the GM Heritage documents of various makes and models like another company. It would be nice to be listed as a recommended and paid vendor on various NCRS sites also…..
But for small businesses that are more hobbyists than businesses that will probably never happen.
No One is going to provide a list of VINs of car they have worked on documents for but I also doubt other companies out there would state that they would also help identify any of the documents they have reproduced and identify them as such.
So, let’s please try to separate companies out there, there are vast differences in the manner in which we conduct our businesses.
I maintain ethics and integrity in what I do and wish all the other companies would do the same. I turn down at least 20% of orders I receive knowing the cars are clones advertised as authentic. It’s great having experts in each model to corroborate with to ensure cars are what they are purported to be or not to be. We also have some great sites which I regularly visit where advertised cars are called out as being fakes, clones, frauds, etc. to keep an eye out for.
Now I suspect I opened a can of worms but I stand behind what I do so let’s see where this goes.

Paul

[SS427]

Thanks for chiming in Paul. You have always been very helpful to me when I have contacted you regarding documents that I have come across and for that I thank you.
Rick

[fsc66]

And I completely support all you do to bring integrity to this great hobby. I wish all the other restoration shops were as vigilant as you are, exemplifying high level of ethics within your business.

Paul

[Mr. Chevy]

The work Paul just did for me was for my 67 Impala. I have the original protecto plate and owner's manual for the car but that was it for original documents. The original owner who I bought the car from did not save the window sticker. The one Paul made for me was basically an exact duplicate of the original and included all options for the car. Nothing was deviated from what the car actually is. The original owner really "got a kick" of the reproduction window sticker and basically authenticated it, even corroborating the actual cost.

Now IF I sold the car I would include this window sticker with the sale of the car and of course not say that it was the "real deal" but that it is as close as it gets to same. This plus the fact that it is just a neat item to have with the car is basically why I had Paul make the sticker and might I add did a fine job with it...

Rich

[Mr70]

I have a Triple A reproduction window sticker for my Chevelle,that I display at shows/cruises,for the uniformed to understand what options it came with originally & what they cost.
Without it,many of them would never spot the details my car has like an L-78,TH-400,Tach,4.10 posi or in dash 8tk tape player.The fact that the Magnum 500 (SS) wheels were included seems to also be real conversation piece with many.
But the prices these options cost back then are the real head turner,which they always seem to point to and call out while looking at it.
I tell all while looking @ it,it's not the original WS also.

But this window sticker starts & ends with me,as the day I sell my car,I'm shredding it up.If the new owner wants one,he can just submit the info from the Original build sheet like I did & have one made up too.I wish more owners would do the same,as well as it would increase business for people like Paul & Mike. ;)

[Lee Stewart]

I don't know if this will help but let me offer an analogy . . .

I have a collection of books - well over 1000 hardcover books - all fiction. Books can be like cars - they are scored based in their condition, if they are a First Edition and did the author sign the book. A few of my books are worth well over $500 each because they have all three: excellent condition, First Edition and the author's signature. These books are 30 to 40 years old.

Many times a new author will get a limited printing of his/her first book. This means that all copies are First Editions so that criteria no longer applies.

So here is what I want to do - you tell me if I am being unethical . . .

I have a good (not excellent) condition book from a VERY popular author. It's his first book. I want to go to a book signing where he will be present signing his latest book and get him to sign my collectors book. By doing so it will raise the value of the book from $500 to $2500.

Once signed there is no way to tell he didn't sign it 40 years ago when the book first came out. Remember - it's HIS signature, not a forgery.

Oh . . . BTW . . . I paid 50 cents for the book at a yard sale 25 years ago.

That extra $2000 would mean a lot to me. I could really use it.

Ethical? Unethical?

[fsc66]

Very good Lee, so follow me here. Let's use a similar scenario that we are all familiar with, sports. You have an old baseball and get one of the old players to sign it. There are always at sport shows and charge for each autograph. You get your old ball signed and pay the baseball player. Is the baseball player a fraud and is he perpetuating fraud for signing an old ball knowing full well that he now brought increased value to the ball? I think not. Now, if you try to sell the ball and give the impression that the ball was signed years ago making it even more valuable, then you fail the integrity test and ethics test, now don't you.

Paul

[Lee Stewart]

Very good Lee, so follow me here. Let's use a similar scenario that we are all familiar with, sports. You have an old baseball and get one of the old players to sign it. There are always at sport shows and charge for each autograph. You get your old ball signed and pay the baseball player. Is the baseball player a fraud and is he perpetuating fraud for signing an old ball knowing full well that he now brought increased value to the ball? I think not. Now, if you try to sell the ball and give the impression that the ball was signed years ago making it even more valuable, then you fail the integrity test and ethics test, now don't you.

Paul

Sure - you would fail . . . but you would also have an old baseball signed by an old pro just like I would have Mr. Author's very first book . . . in hardcover, in good condition, a First Edition signed by Mr. Author himself whose signature (like your old pro) can be verified by a signature expert.

Books like this don't come up for sale very often you know. Here is a chance to own one especially if you are an avid fan of Mr. Author. The price is a reasonable $2500 and I will guarantee in writing that the signature is his or I will refund 100% your money plus your shipping expense.

The lure of easy money skirting a very fine line - hard to resist isn't it?

[fsc66]

Yep, Lee but you nor I would do that. Unethical people will practice unethical behavior and that will always be the issue here. I wish more people would be cognizant of what they are buying and check things out before they purchase. But greed and selfishness act as catalysts to a fast buck for some people if when it's too good to be true.

Me

[Lee Stewart]

Maybe I don't quite understand the value of a Window Sticker when it comes to the pedigree of a car. How much emphasis is placed on having a real one if that is the only documentation that goes with the car? Oh sure - I understand what it shows but I would think that other documentation like the Build Sheet would be more valuable. Isn't that like a car's "Birth Certificate?"

There will never be a "meeting of the minds" on the issue of reproduction Window Stickers. Like many things in life, what is created for show and enjoyment purposes can be used to defraud the unsuspecting and uneducated.

[ZLP955]

The condoning of this practice in the wider hobby and attempts to justify it as harmless seem starkly in contrast with the generally-accepted attitude towards other aspects like restamping, changing trim tags, rebodying (to defraud rather than restore). I respect the rights of others to do as they see fit, but I'll never understand the 'for' argument.
If a reproduction window sticker is created only for showing, or the owner's enjoyment (whatever that means), why is it so important that it be as close to an original as possible, in appearance and content, so that it's only detectable as fake to a very few experts or the recreator?

[HawkX66]

The condoning of this practice in the wider hobby and attempts to justify it as harmless seem starkly in contrast with the generally-accepted attitude towards other aspects like restamping, changing trim tags, rebodying (to defraud rather than restore). I respect the rights of others to do as they see fit, but I'll never understand the 'for' argument.
If a reproduction window sticker is created only for showing, or the owner's enjoyment (whatever that means), why is it so important that it be as close to an original as possible, in appearance and content, so that it's only detectable as fake to a very few experts or the recreator?
That's why I laminated mine and didn't have it aged. I didn't need an exact replica and wasn't trying to fool anyone. Now for the difference between re-stamping and the window sticker I can't agree. The window sticker is a piece of paper and isn't the actual car although it is supposed to represent the car. Cloning is the attempt to make something that isn't in anyway shape or form one thing, be another. L78s are the new Z28 by the looks of things. They're popping up all over the place. If someone wanted to put "reproduction" on the back of the document or something, I could care less, but I wouldn't want to see it on the front.
Here's a for that you guys "might" understand. A collector with real documents that likes to show his car and likes to display the documents. Do you really think he should have to bring the one of a kind, irreplaceable, originals?

[ZLP955]

A collector with real documents that likes to show his car and likes to display the documents. Do you really think he should have to bring the one of a kind, irreplaceable, originals?
What, alongside the one-of-a-kind, irreplaceable, original car that it belongs to? Yikes.
Maybe that guy could make a copy of the original window sticker and tell anyone that calls BS on it that the original is tucked away safely though. Doesn't have to pay for a fake document, and that scenario is easily comprehended by most.

[68l30]

I made a collage of all my documents and printed it on a 8.5" X11" and throw it on the dash. Nothing is complete enough to be copied, stolen or used by anyone else. Most people could care less, but some like the artistic touch.

BIG

[HawkX66]

What, alongside the one-of-a-kind, irreplaceable, original car that it belongs to? Yikes.
Maybe that guy could make a copy of the original window sticker and tell anyone that calls BS on it that the original is tucked away safely though. Doesn't have to pay for a fake document, and that scenario is easily comprehended by most.
The original car I would hope is a little more sturdy than a 47+ year old piece of paper, but... You are correct, a simple photocopy should suffice in that scenario.

[fsc66]

You have no idea how many people keep their original documents locked in safes and safe deposit boxes. They make copies and ask to have those reproduced. Additionally, people want very poor condition documents to be reproduced, especially in the case of tank stickers on corvettes. Then we get requests from people who received their information from Vintage Vehicle Services in Canada and want reproduction documents created from that report, people having build sheets and/or tank stickers that want a window sticker created, etc.

Paul

[Big Block Bill]

Maybe I don't quite understand the value of a Window Sticker when it comes to the pedigree of a car. How much emphasis is placed on having a real one if that is the only documentation that goes with the car? Oh sure - I understand what it shows but I would think that other documentation like the Build Sheet would be more valuable. Isn't that like a car's "Birth Certificate?"

There will never be a "meeting of the minds" on the issue of reproduction Window Stickers. Like many things in life, what is created for show and enjoyment purposes can be used to defraud the unsuspecting and uneducated.


Being my LS-6 is an Arlington built car, it is next to impossible to find a REAL Build Sheet / "Birth Certificate" being (I am told) the only place they were placed was on the passenger side floor pan prior to sound insulation and carpet installation. So if the car went through the Midwest climate of rain, salt , and snow as my car did being an Illinois delivered car, the only other documentation would be a protect-o-plate or window sicker.

So I feel the original window sticker (which I have) is the only documentation that can prove it left the factory as a Black, White stripes, Black Bucket seat, M-22, 4:10 gear car. If I was lucky enough to have the original protect-o-plate, it would prove engine, transmission, and rear axle codes but not all the options it has like the AM / Stereo 8-track radio.

If this original window sticker was not with the car when I purchased it in January 2003, I would have never purchased it being I was only looking for a documented Black / Black Bucket seat LS-6, M-22 / 4:10 gear car.

Right or wrong, anyone can build anything they want and "Put Together" paperwork to prove what they have created. But when originally built, they are only what they left the factory as. I can only hope in my lifetime Chevrolet will model a program off of PHS or Marti that will prove every Camaro, Chevelle, full size Chevrolet, Nove and Corvette. If they did, we'd all be broke from building prisons to house all the Thief's in.

They are only born original once, and have only one real "Birth Certificate".

Bill

First
Bloomington Gold Survivor / Gold / Benchmark Award June 1990 / 1991
Unrestored 1967 Lynndale L-79 Roadster

[Jonesy]

I think when it comes to offering "aged documents, that is wrong. Why not just repro them and call it that.

[NorCam]

What about aged tires (as in original molded bias ply) and aged dated spark plug wires, and marked belts, hoses, etc etc. Should we all just get new looking parts and put them on our vintage cars? No, we want everything to look period correct, old and like it belongs to the 50 or 60 year old car that its being paired with. So why would anyone who spends thousands restoring a car with all kinds of dated, restored or NOS parts want to display a bright crispy piece of paper with the car they just poured themselves into?

Again, the issue isn't with the paper, it's with the person who with malicious intent uses it to "deceive".

[Jonesy]

I was referring to how the window sticker reproducer gives the option of aging it and making it look old. I dont think you age you tires or age your spark plug wires to make them look old? age cracks in your belts?? Put dirt on your hoses. Not sure if I have seen that.
When you "age" a document, you are deceiving IMO. Why even offer that. Spring marks and fading or yellowing.

[Lee Stewart]

What about aged tires (as in original molded bias ply) and aged dated spark plug wires, and marked belts, hoses, etc etc. Should we all just get new looking parts and put them on our vintage cars? No, we want everything to look period correct, old and like it belongs to the 50 or 60 year old car that its being paired with. So why would anyone who spends thousands restoring a car with all kinds of dated, restored or NOS parts want to display a bright crispy piece of paper with the car they just poured themselves into?

Again, the issue isn't with the paper, it's with the person who with malicious intent uses it to "deceive".

Right - so one bad apple spoils the whole barrel. And why should the opportunity exist for that to happen? This isn't an occurrence that only happens once in a blue moon. It happens ALL THE TIME.

So by catering to the enthusiast we open the market up for the deceivers, thieves and the unscrupulous to ply their trades.

Those that sell these Window Stickers don't care. To them it's a business they can make money at. What happens after the sale has nothing to do with them as far as they are concerned.

Maybe the market should borrow the rule of law when it comes to bars serving booze to drunks who get in their cars and cause mayhem and loss. If a case of fraud comes up and it hinges on a fake aged Window Sticker let the creator of such document be held responsible . . . legally.

If there is no penalty, there is no incentive to stop.

It would also make those car with an original Window Sticker that much more valuable.

[ZLP955]

What about aged tires (as in original molded bias ply) and aged dated spark plug wires, and marked belts, hoses, etc etc. Should we all just get new looking parts and put them on our vintage cars? No, we want everything to look period correct, old and like it belongs to the 50 or 60 year old car that its being paired with. So why would anyone who spends thousands restoring a car with all kinds of dated, restored or NOS parts want to display a bright crispy piece of paper with the car they just poured themselves into?
I don't follow this argument. Sounds like you're referring to a car 'restored' to look like a survivor. Most restorations end up with the car looking, well, restored - like it did when new. Same as you're doing with the X77 car, no?
And the issue of not wanting bright crispy paperwork, if someone feels the need to re-create something the car lacks, why try and disguise it by faking age? Said it before, you either have the original, or you don't.

[fsc66]

I guess no matter what is written some people will just bunch everyone together and blame everyone in this business. So, on the other side of the coin.
I received an order for a very highly optioned Chevrolet model making this a pretty valuable car. Immediately I'm suspicious about the cars authenticity. So, as I always do first, I ask if this is an original or a cloned car and are all the options factory or add-ons. The response, “yes, original drive train”. So right away, evasiveness, a red flag. Then another response, “I believe all the options are factory but don’t have a build sheet”. Another flag. So, for me, research time, thank goodness for the internet (and the experts I am associated with for each Model) . I find the car on a few sites for sale and review all the pics. Trans not original first of all, so I write back and also ask for pic of trim tag. Response: "The trans is not on the cowl tag and I guess you are not as well versed as I thought you were, seems like your expertise is in other vehicles. OK, now insults, red flags just keep coming up. I try to explain professionally, that if the car is not original I cannot create any paperwork without watermarks. I also explain that I reviewed approx. 20 pictures of the car in the ads and numerous items checked off are not on the car. He tells me I should not go by the ads and how do I know the ads are correct. Then tells me he can’t send the trim tag pic because he’s at work. This goes on back and forth, him trying to convince me all is original and I of course stick to my guns. Then it’s time for threats: he writes he is a member of a club whose members are interested in my services but now he will advise them that unless they have original documents or other proof I will not move forward. I try to explain about bringing some integrity and ethics to a business that is riddled with negativity to not avail. Next response and stating that it will be the last: “I will be posting my experience with you, and as a courtesy will provide a copy to you prior to posting if you would like a copy, you have my word it will accurately reflect my experience here” I stated that I welcome the posting and thanked him for his time.
So, I sit and ponder after reading posts about how all of us are the same and wonder why I’m never going to make any real money doing this? Why should I care about ethics, integrity and this wonderful hobby when some people are just going to bunch me in with all those others that only car about making a buck and couldn’t care less about ethics and such………..

Paul

[Steve Shauger]

I want to start off by saying reproduction documentation should not be displayed or represented as original in the sale of a car period.

Reproduction documentation should never be aged period! I’d like to see some watermark or identification that it is a reproduction.

Saying reproduction documents are at fault for fraud is like saying a guns kill. It’s the dishonest people who represent their cars and documentation as real who are at fault and thieves.
There are many cases where cars are reproduced by original paperwork. I remember that 69 RG RS/Z that sold at an auction as original for 120ki+ and the only things original were the documentation and VIN tag and trim tag.

To me original paperwork is icing on the cake, but the vehicle itself is what matter…. Would you rather have a handful of original documentation (POP, window sticker, buildsheet, pre-inspection) or a true original car. Yes we’d all like both, but paperwork is worthless without a genuine car. The more I learn about cars the less important the paperwork become to me.

Whether you use Paul or his services ( winvoices) or not, he is very helpful and informative when researching dealers, options, and participates quite often on this board, while not soliciting his services but helping hobbyist… Just my opinion.

[Mr70]

I'll say it again,tear up your reproduction paper work before you sell a vehicle with such.
It will benefit the Hobby as a whole,as well as everyone involved. :)

[NorCam]

That's probably the best post I have seen in the thread yet.

Well thought and said,

[ZLP955]

I'll say it again,tear up your reproduction paper work before you sell a vehicle with such.
It will benefit the Hobby as a whole,as well as everyone involved. :)
Agreed that could help to avoid misunderstanding or misrepresentation, when you previously mentioned this.
But a lot of collectors hang onto their cars for years, and a significant number only re-enter the market through deceased estates or after long-term illness. Family members won't be thinking clearly about shredding reproduction car documents at such times.
Never creating fake paperwork in the first place removes all possible doubt. Surely that's best for the overall hobby?

[SS427]

Going back to your post Bill on your LS6, I have personally never found a buildsheet on the passenger side, only the drivers side though they can be found anywhere. I recently posted a photo of a sheet I found on the Mist Green LS6. Check that side if you have not already.

[Lynn]

I have great respect for Paul, for his knowledge and for his services (even though we couldn't nail down dealer 833 in Zone 23). Let's face it, Pauls efforts have probably led to a lot of information, and in some cases, the discovery of original paper.

We simply disagree on one thing: I believe EVERY reproduced WS should have a watermark indicatiing that it is a reproduction. I don't beleive for a minute Paul would furnish a WS to a guy who planned to use it to deceive. Still, there can be no denying that it could happen.

Even though most guys on this board would not use a reproduced WS do decieve (although a few of you would, I am sure... you know who you are!) the risk of deception in the future is too high. Pretty certain there are more fake WS out there than real ones.

While not exactly the same as the trim tag argument, there are many similarities. I don't see any downside to a watermark. If I were to order a WS for my car (I have no paperwork and cannot even determine with certainty who dealer 833 was) I would insist on a watermark. I am not going to be around forever, so I may not even be here to insist on "destroying" the repop WS next time the car changes hands.

[Verne_Frantz]

Good post Lynn. And as I said, the "aging" process crosses the ethical line. I'm surprised that some people think that is part of a "proper restoration".
Verne

[fsc66]

I think we have now come full circle with this discussion........
SO HOW ABOUT THIS BEAUTIFUL WEATHER WE ARE HAVING !!!!!!!!!!!!
:)

Paul


I have some new data that shows zones, codes and districts along the the town the dealer was located in. Unfortunately it does not show the Dealer name. However, it may help us to pinpoint a dealer based on what we know about how dealer codes were assigned and also if there are very few dealers within the town.
I'll take a look for 23 833 and let you know.
I checked it's not on there either, sorry

Me

[mr 707]

you represent fake documents as real , you are putting yourself in legal jeopardy.

[Lynn]

Thanks Paul. Despite our difference of opinion on the watermark, I DO appreciate all you do for many folks in the hobby. Even something as simple as identifying the dealer MAY lead to other info that I would never discover.

It is appreciated.

[fsc66]

Mr: 707
I'll bite, lets go with this, you've made an accusation, so now substantiate it. You stated that I am representing documents that are fake as real, so please while everyone is listening, please provide proof to corroborate your statement?

Paul

[Lee Stewart]

Mr: 707
I'll bite, lets go with this, you've made an accusation, so now substantiate it. You stated that I am representing documents that are fake as real, so please while everyone is listening, please provide proof to corroborate your statement?

Paul

https://s10.postimg.org/m6ea4y9gp/screenshot_4552.png (https://postimg.org/image/8cpxfwgv9/)

https://s7.postimg.org/b8p5rsuvf/screenshot_4554.png (https://postimg.org/image/b8p5rsuvb/)

We all know there is only one REAL WS - the one that came on the car when it left the factory

[Lynn]

Was hoping it wouldn't deteriorate into this.

Paul: I did not read this post as an indictment of YOU.

"you represent fake documents as real , you are putting yourself in legal jeopardy."

I read it to mean that the person who DOES misrepresent it as "real" is placing himself in legal jeapardy. I believe that is a true statement.

I have not seen any post by anyone on this site that says YOU are representing them as real. You state they are authentic looking. A repop manufacturer says he makes a repop bumber that is so good you can't tell it from a real one. If I take that repop, but a gm part sticker on it, and sell it as original GM, I am committing fraud, not the manufacturer.

[Steve Shauger]

I agree Lynn, this thread is starting to deteriorate.

[fsc66]

This is like watching fake news where people take things out of context and report only on sections that promote their thought or cases. Try to read everything:

" For those of you that are lucky enough to own the original paperwork and documentation, we all envy you. For those that aren’t as lucky, now is the time to own your own expertly reproduced Documents that make great Novelty items for display purposes"


Paul

[fsc66]

Ok, so you pulled the word authentic out and gave us a lesson on what the word means. Very good, guess you forgot about the next word, "looking" as in "authentic looking".
Good Job on that.
Why don't you look up the meaning of "Monroney Sticker" or "Window sticker" and forget everything else and explain what that means and again forget everything else on my page!!!

Paul

[Lee Stewart]

Ok, so you pulled the word authentic out and gave us a lesson on what the word means. Very good, guess you forgot about the next word, "looking" as in "authentic looking".
Good Job on that.
Why don't you look up the meaning of "Monroney Sticker" or "Window sticker" and forget everything else and explain what that means and again forget everything else on my page!!!

Paul

OK - I will make two substitutions instead of the word "authentic" according to the Dictionary:

"We custom create GENUINE looking documents for 1960 through 1982 Chevrolet Cars and Trucks"

"We custom create REAL looking documents for 1960 through 1982 Chevrolet Cars and Trucks"

Hows that?

Paul - let me ask you an honest question . . .

In all the years you have been reproducing your documents has there ever been a case where you fell victim to an unscrupulous person who used your documents to defraud another individual?

[fsc66]

Lee,
To answer your question, no, I have never fell to that issue. Have you ever seen a single one of my documents used in an advertisement and not stated that they are reproductions?

paul

[fsc66]

Please review with an open mind and I think you will have a better understanding:

Let’s look at the facts here and I’m sure we all appreciate facts:
GM Heritage a division of General Motors who provides us with the wonderful information packets for our cars sanctioned and uploaded to the GM site there is a very informative packet for 1969 Camaros:
See attached packet and download if you don’t already have it:
https://www.gmheritagecenter.com/docs/gm-heritage-archive/vehicle-information-kits/Camaro/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro.pdf

Please scroll down to page 120.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you are interested in original Pontiac information they still have copies of original invoices for older Pontiac models:
Scroll down to PHS Automotive services who manage the process for GM after you click on this link:
https://history.gmheritagecenter.com/wiki/index.php/GM_Vehicle_Invoices,_Build_Records_and_Vintage_Veh icle_Information_Availability

PHS Automotive Services main page:

http://www.phs-online.com/index.html
Now, if you want to have a reproduction window sticker made up for your vehicle from this GM sanctioned company, here is their link:

http://www.phs-online.com/window%20sticker%20order.htm
Click on the image of the window sticker and read.

An excerpt from the verbiage after you click: “the owners of 1961 to 2000 Pontiacs have the opportunity to purchase exact reproductions of the original window sticker that came on their car”


I can show you more of the same from NCRS sites if you would like…

Paul

[Lee Stewart]

Lee,
To answer your question, no, I have never fell to that issue. Have you ever seen a single one of my documents used in an advertisement and not stated that they are reproductions?

paul

I am unable to answer your question Paul due to my limited exposure to cars being offered for sale where the documents can be viewed.

All I see in ads or auction "highlights/descriptions" is something to the tune of:

Original Build Sheet, Window Sticker, POP, etc. included

[fsc66]

Well then Lee, that makes a great case.

Paul

[Lee Stewart]

Paul:

You posted some sources for reproduction documentation in post #95 that you feel are totally reliable right?

How about this fake 1969 L89 Camaro SS 396?


Camaro L-89. Documented by GM Historic Division. One of 311 produced Rotisserie restored 2005 maintains all original body panels and Original numbers matching 396 L-89 engine and 12 bolt rear end M-22 Muncie Transmission replaced under warranty and carries no VIN Original cowl tag damaged and replaced during restoration Equipment includes factory console gauges, Walnut Wheel Deluxe interior , Am-Fm radio Original rims with Bias Ply Tires Chamebered exhaust. Verifying paperwork from Canadian GM Historic Division and MTO (Ontario License Bureau) original Protecto-Plate included ... Pictures were taken 2016 ... Very rare mint L-78 L89 1969 Camaro

Price $ 125,000 US Dollars

http://www.cars-on-line.com/gen3-cars/col1/posting/89129

There is a very long thread about this car here at Yenko.Net:

http://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=94165

Just a footnote Paul:

I grew up in No. Merrick and owned a house in Lynbrook. You can call me a displaced Long Islander.

[mr 707]

There has been some well know cases in my neck of the woods in ohio. They didnt go well for the forgers. Again i said i have no problem with reproduction window stickers BUT if they are represented as real thats a problem. I made no reference to whatever cars your talking about in this thread(i dont know anything about them) . ASK ANY lawyer. Stamping a vin number or hanging a fake tag in order to decieve someone your asking for legal trouble. MY OPINION

[fsc66]

Lee,
Post #95 is by someone named Astrojet on that thread you referenced, not sure what you are talking about.
Are you asking me if I think it's ok when fake anything is used in an advertisement, whether paperwork, tags or anything else?
Of course not, that is why I am constantly on so many forums helping to identify reproduction documents when advertised as authentic.
That's also why I work with admins from various web sites to help them identify repro paperwork advertised as real. And that's why I also work with some restoration shops to help identify reproduction paperwork prior to them working especially on high valued cars in order to protect themselves. And that's also why I send e-mails to people on ebay and Muscle Car Retail shops selling these vehicles advertised with original paperwork when it is not.
Not sure if that answers your questions?

Paul

[DW31S]

Just curious, and I have no gun in this fight, but do you charge for authenticating original documents? I have the original docs (got them from a fastidious first owner) and my paperwork is approaching 50 years old and appears as new. I still think there are car owners (like me) who's paperwork might look like new because of the type of person that kept the docs in a safe. I went to an office supply warehouse and made exact color copies of my stuff and laminated the copies. I made a binder with the laminated items and that is what I use at shows, events, etc.
I hate to sound cynical, but unless there is an established chain of ownership, I question supporting paperwork on these old cars. Back in the '80s I saw a fellow spitting out new POP on a GM machine with GM tape and GM cards. I thought the whole thing stunk, but I witnessed in person.
Another question along the lines of the book signing and baseball signing: if you had a POP made for your car from original GM supplies on an original machine used by GM representatives, is that a "REAL" POP?

[Steve Shauger]

Just curious, and I have no gun in this fight, but do you charge for authenticating original documents? I have the original docs (got them from a fastidious first owner) and my paperwork is approaching 50 years old and appears as new. I still think there are car owners (like me) who's paperwork might look like new because of the type of person that kept the docs in a safe. I went to an office supply warehouse and made exact color copies of my stuff and laminated the copies. I made a binder with the laminated items and that is what I use at shows, events, etc.
I hate to sound cynical, but unless there is an established chain of ownership, I question supporting paperwork on these old cars. Back in the '80s I saw a fellow spitting out new POP on a GM machine with GM tape and GM cards. I thought the whole thing stunk, but I witnessed in person.
Another question along the lines of the book signing and baseball signing: if you had a POP made for your car from original GM supplies on an original machine used by GM representatives, is that a "REAL" POP?
Simply put NO!!!

[NorCam]

I like the way you think Dave. :scholar:

[fsc66]

To date I have never charged anyone to help authenticate documents. That is not my business but I would say at this point I have gotten pretty good at it. If I cannot tell then I tell them I am not sure also.
There are many more methods to determine reproduction than most would know and that is also who items such as ECL codes will never be released.......

Paul

[DW31S]

Simply put NO!!!

I agree Steve, so we think alike. At that time I had a '69 Pace Car (small block, stick) and we all were joking about how nobody would ever care about docs and such for a small block Pace Car. I could have had one of the "new" POP for free; I declined the offer.

[70 copo]

To date I have never charged anyone to help authenticate documents. That is not my business but I would say at this point I have gotten pretty good at it. If I cannot tell then I tell them I am not sure also.
There are many more methods to determine reproduction than most would know and that is also who items such as ECL codes will never be released.......

Paul

Paul,

Joined this forum 17 years ago and watching this thread is painful. Some people go ape Sh*t when original documents surface on a particular car that has good reported provenance and then accordingly either hype the car or bash it depending on who owns it and where the politics fall and there is the risk in having an opinion because nobody wants to be fooled.

Let the market decide. If you change how you make these I would bet you are pretty much out of business pronto, and this would not be an issue if the titans of the hobby did not place a premium on "documentation" but they do- and as a result some guys want reproduction stuff for the cool factor.

Eventually the cheater is gonna cheat, and if the buyer cannot tell the difference that falls into "buyer beware" on the sale.

[Lee Stewart]

A couple of questions . . .

Would someone be willing to offer an opinion as to how much of an increase in value documentation adds to a A#1 car?

If a car is known to be what it claims like a Yenko Camaro but has no documentation, would having documentation raise it's value?

[SS427]

On a Yenko I do not believe it raises it's value a whole lot for the simple reason that the VIN's for the most part are known. The paperwork adds a lot of cool factor but the car is already known to be real.

In the case of say an LS6 Chevelle (ok, ok but it's what I know) I believe it can add as much as 20% or more depending on coupe of convertible. In the case of convertibles and especially Canadian documented cars it can add a WHOLE lot more as recently seen. These cars are just too easy (relatively speaking) to fake so paperwork pays a large part in it's value and therefore authenticity. I have many clients who will not even consider a non documented LS6 which is just one of the reasons why I am so passionate about 'real' paperwork, stamps and other identifying information on these cars.

Just to add Paul, I do not believe anyone is specifically putting you into a pool of thieves or dishonest people. That is based on all the positive comments you have received from many people including myself. You won't find too many of the other people doing similar work getting those compliments. I, like you have defend myself against all the unscrupulous restoration shops and thieves out there as I too sometimes feel like I am put in the same category as the others which is why I cannot bend the rules and have to practice what I preach.

[Verne_Frantz]

Rick, Sometimes even a good guy can be put in the "bad pool" by mistaken opinions or a bad comment that gets repeated. I know that has happened to you too. Friendships are lost for no good reason really and suddenly you no longer get replies to PMs or emails. All you can do is keep trying to do the right thing. Like it or not, no matter what you do, you have no control over the opinion people have of you - it's strictly up to them. I've always been a believer that the truth is the most important thing - no matter where it comes from or where it leads. Sometimes it leads to bruises that never heal.

Verne

[DW31S]

Verne, that sure can happen.
Honesty is and always has been the best policy. I live by the Golden Rule and know well and good that not all people do.
Rick, I have heard nothing but positive opinions on you and your work so your work ethics and reputation do proceed you.
Paul, the product and services you provide to the hobby are welcomed by many, and unfortunately used by others to deceive. I'd say keep up the good work and let the chips fall where they may (and I'd like to hear/read more about the watermark).

[BJCHEV396]

Rick, Sometimes even a good guy can be put in the "bad pool" by mistaken opinions or a bad comment that gets repeated. I know that has happened to you too. Friendships are lost for no good reason really and suddenly you no longer get replies to PMs or emails. All you can do is keep trying to do the right thing. Like it or not, no matter what you do, you have no control over the opinion people have of you - it's strictly up to them. I've always been a believer that the truth is the most important thing - no matter where it comes from or where it leads. Sometimes it leads to bruises that never heal.

VerneWell said Verne!!

[ZLP955]

^ great last couple of posts there.

[rsinor]

Pretty simple guys just don't be the deceiver, you do realize that a collector car fraud case can be filed up to seven years after discovery. That means if you are involved in the food chain or produce these type documents you can be named in a law suit the rest of your life. Discovery can be three four five or more owners down the road. Deep pockets can name every previous owner in the suit, it is you that has to defend your butt and get your name removed from the law suit. These suits eventually find the individual perpetrating the deception.

[Mr70]

Pretty simple guys just don't be the deceiver, you do realize that a collector car fraud case can be filed up to seven years after discovery. That means if you are involved in the food chain or produce these type documents you can be named in a law suit the rest of your life. Discovery can be three four five or more owners down the road.

Exactly why after enjoying your reproduction window sticker after years of ownership,you should tear it up @ the moment of selling your car.

[Xplantdad]

Great post, Roy!