Automotive News says the Dodge Demon should be banned

[69LM1]

http://www.foxnews.com/auto/2017/04/26/automotive-news-says-dodge-demon-should-be-banned.html

Automotive News says the Dodge Demon should be banned

"Trade publication Automotive News has called for the new Dodge Challenger SRT Demon to be banned in a scathing editorial regarding the muscle car titled “Keep the Dodge Demon off our roads.”

The outlet called the 808 hp Demon “inherently dangerous to the common safety of motorists,” even while admitting there are other “more powerful, and even faster vehicles available from other automakers that are rightly street legal.”

The Demon was designed to be the quickest car in the world, and it has several drag racing-style features never before offered on a factory production car, including a transmission brake and a standard set of drag radials, which have the minimum amount of tread to be approved for street use by the DOT.

The car only ships with a driver’s seat and can run on 100 octane race gas with a factory upgrade that comes with a warranty and bumps its power up to 840 hp. The Demon’s quarter-mile performance of 9.65 seconds at 140 mph means that it requires a roll cage to be used on a drag strip if its owner actually plans to drive it that quickly.

The editorial says that the Demon is “the result of a sequence of misguided corporate choices that places bragging rights ahead of public safety,” and that it “spits” on the industry’s goal of improving safety while “knowingly placing motorists in danger.” It goes on to quote Ralph Nader and proclaim the Demon “unsafe at any speed.”
"

Wow.. harsh, or as my kids say, Salty.

Rich

[earntaz]

requires a roll cage to be used on a drag strip ...

I think NHRA has banned it for the above reason ... TAZ

[Dave Rifkin]

I kind of agree; there are too many people with more money than driving skill. You put someone who has never experienced such power behind the wheel and God knows what could happen.
I love fast, powerful cars and have owned my fair share but, just because I could afford it (and I can't) doesn't mean I could handle a car with that kind of power.

[Turbo70Camaro]

Snowflake alert snowflake alert. Can we become any softer jeez.

[Crush]

Hmmm maybe we should ban the Kawasaki Ninja ZX 14r too and just about every street bike. Lord knows NO one drives them over the speed limit! Geez!

[Vern B]

Author must not make enough money to afford one.

[Kurt S]

I see where they are coming from.
Chevrolet made COPO not street legal. "COPO is a true racing machine, specifically offered for competitive NHRA use only. It cannot be registered, titled, licensed, or driven on public roads." With roll cage.
Dodge probably should have done the same. It's a racecar that shouldn't be run on the street, IMO.

[SuperNovaSS]

If they did that than they would sell very few and they would lose money.


Jason

[flyingn]

Snowflake alert snowflake alert. Can we become any softer jeez.
Exactly. What about all the Lambos and other exotics that are faster? They are ok?

Its nothing more then more Anti American BS, just like all the snowflakes do.

[Dave Rifkin]

For all of you guys referring to people a "snowflakes"; I'm sure we've all seen wealthy dipshits at cruises who try and show off and lose control of the car. Many times these same idiots wind up running into a crowd of innocent bystanders.

Do I want the government to rule out all hi performance cars; hell no but do I think the manufacturers should market their "street" cars as race cars, no. The friggin' thing doesn't even have a passenger seat, comes with slicks and other features typically reserved for a full time race car.
As to the comparison to the Lambos and other exotics; do you see any of those manufacturers removing seats, providing race tires and touting the car as the baddest thing on the street?
Sure there are ubber wealthy folks who own those cars too and some of those people can't drive for shit but, those cars are portrayed as street racers.

If these opinions make me a snowflake so be it.

[cook_dw]

Dave, I think they are talking about the snowflakes as being the people that want the cars banned not the inexperienced drivers. The only thing I will say is that Dodge should have required a driving class for the Hellcat and Demon before purchasing.. It would at least allow the potential new owners a better understanding of what they are getting into. This falls into a similar category to handguns. The car didn't harm the person. The driver did. Educate the user and the accidents will reduce.

Here is what the owners are required to sign before purchase of a Demon.

Here is the link to an article about it.

http://jalopnik.com/heres-what-you-have-to-sign-when-you-buy-a-dodge-challe-1796304916

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/flstkhguzpakx4gzrbkh.png

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/mdi28s2jfrfnggsatjjx.png

[Turbo70Camaro]

For all of you guys referring to people a "snowflakes"; I'm sure we've all seen wealthy dipshits at cruises who try and show off and lose control of the car. Many times these same idiots wind up running into a crowd of innocent bystanders.



If these opinions make me a snowflake so be it.Dave all you have to do is go on youtube and search Mustang car show crashes, were talking about 300-500 hp cars so a dipshit is a dipshit no matter what car it is...................

Snowflake reference was not meant for any member here bud it was for the article writer.............

[JRC99]

These sound like the most boring people on Earth. I have a few choice words for them, but I'd rather keep things family friendly.

Also, this is from back in April. Sadly, not April 1st.

[Tenney]

Exactly. What about all the Lambos and other exotics that are faster? They are ok?

Or a Tesla. And you can pile the fam into one 'o those rascals ...

[Craig_Maiorana]

As long as there are idiots with big checkbooks and minimal driving skill there is going to wrecks that could have been prevented. There were a bunch right after the Hellcats were released. We had some knucklehead here in Orange county wipe out a freshly restored 64 Bel air with his Hellcat at one of the bigger car shows ..... besides the fact that he was drunk and shouldn't have even been behind the wheel anyway . Whats next ? Are we going to force everyone to drive a prius?

[ZiggyL78]

Wait a minute.Does any one really believe that NHRA has really banned the Demon?Half the clowns that are going to buy one these monsters will not have the skill to get one in the 9s.The well experienced test driver that got a 9.65 out of one of these cars made 500 passes on a well prepped track under almost perfect conditions to go that fast.Look at all the disappointed Hellcat drivers who went to the track and expected to run 10s.

Second of all when was the last time you heard of NHRA advertising on some rule they have and what cars they will not allow to compete?This is clearly a publicity stunt by Chrysler to advertise how fast this car is and how special it is to be the first production car to be banned by NHRA.Chrysler probably took a number of NHRA VIPs to dinner and maybe more then that to get NHRA to make such a statement.

As far as this car being released to the public.I'm the one of the biggest HP junkies you will ever meet.I would love to own one but the car is too fast and dangerous to let your average Joe drive one.I read an article were someone asked why the DRs on the front and back of the car.I thought they did it to comply with some safety rule about matching tires on a new car.This article said the reason was that if someone was going to the track a lot and wore out the rear DRs then all they had to do was switch the tires from front to back!Are you kidding!So some kid wears down the rears puts them on the front and wears those down and drives home with 4 worn out DRs and it starts to rain.Gee.I wonder what will happen!

Just my 2 cents.

[daverd]

Moonbat alert ��!! I am so tired of these
"Know it all " jerkoffs I wish they would go
Away they are Destroying our country
And freedoms!!!
Melt Away snowflakes!!!
If I could afford to buy one I certainly
Would NOT unleash its power on the public
Streets !!!! Simple common sense !!!
If some moron chooses to do so..
Don't take away our freedoms to own
Powerful automobiles.. be they new
Muscle cars or old...

[Kurt S]

Attack the idea, not the person - paraphrasing A. Scalia.

[the427king]

All you have to do is create a racing venue where everyone gets a trophy just for entering. Then there wont be any competition and noone will go home dejected.

[The Boss]

Meets government standards - end of story.

[429scj]

Mother nature kills people too, shall we ban that as well?

[67BelAir427]

Ken, just curious what source you read that said it took 500 passes on a prepped track?
I have looked and all I can find is that the rear end took 500 launches before letting go and the test mule engine was good for at least 1100 ?

You surely can't be the same Ken that I know who took his brand new Buick GN to the track and ran faster than the magazine test cars ??? LOL

Please tell me you haven't turned into "your average Joe "


Wait a minute.Does any one really believe that NHRA has really banned the Demon?Half the clowns that are going to buy one these monsters will not have the skill to get one in the 9s.The well experienced test driver that got a 9.65 out of one of these cars made 500 passes on a well prepped track under almost perfect conditions to go that fast.Look at all the disappointed Hellcat drivers who went to the track and expected to run 10s.

Second of all when was the last time you heard of NHRA advertising on some rule they have and what cars they will not allow to compete?This is clearly a publicity stunt by Chrysler to advertise how fast this car is and how special it is to be the first production car to be banned by NHRA.Chrysler probably took a number of NHRA VIPs to dinner and maybe more then that to get NHRA to make such a statement.

As far as this car being released to the public.I'm the one of the biggest HP junkies you will ever meet.I would love to own one but the car is too fast and dangerous to let your average Joe drive one.I read an article were someone asked why the DRs on the front and back of the car.I thought they did it to comply with some safety rule about matching tires on a new car.This article said the reason was that if someone was going to the track a lot and wore out the rear DRs then all they had to do was switch the tires from front to back!Are you kidding!So some kid wears down the rears puts them on the front and wears those down and drives home with 4 worn out DRs and it starts to rain.Gee.I wonder what will happen!

Just my 2 cents.

[427TJ]

It's not the car's fault, it's the idiots who wrap them around utility poles.

[Mr70]

I blame the person who put that utility pole there in the first place. :)

[69LM1]

Its like 1970 all over again. Lets keep in perspective that anyone with the resources can buy, bolt on and run a car to these same specs. Banning a car by a manufacturer that is following all current regulations seems a bit harsh to me.

People have choices, and choices have consequences.

I mean one can argue why even have cars that can go above 85 mph (which I believe is the fastest speed limit that I know of)? I mean, there's no need to go faster than that.

Heck, with every new car equipped with a GPS that knows the speed limit on every road, why not just set a cars computer so that it cannot drive faster than the allowed speed limit?

(sarcasm)

Rich

[flyingn]

For all of you guys referring to people a "snowflakes"; I'm sure we've all seen wealthy dipshits at cruises who try and show off and lose control of the car. Many times these same idiots wind up running into a crowd of innocent bystanders.

Do I want the government to rule out all hi performance cars; hell no but do I think the manufacturers should market their "street" cars as race cars, no. The friggin' thing doesn't even have a passenger seat, comes with slicks and other features typically reserved for a full time race car.
As to the comparison to the Lambos and other exotics; do you see any of those manufacturers removing seats, providing race tires and touting the car as the baddest thing on the street?
Sure there are ubber wealthy folks who own those cars too and some of those people can't drive for shit but, those cars are portrayed as street racers.

If these opinions make me a snowflake so be it.

The snowflakes I refer to are the people in the media who are complaining about the car. I stand by what I say too. IF the Demon was made by a Euro manufacture or Japanese manufacture, it would not be in the position that these snowflake media folks are putting it in. Dumb people make dumb mistakes all the time. There will be 1000 times as many deaths in every day cars by people texting etc then all the deaths in all the super high performance put together, bu do you see these snowflakes banning those cars and drivers and phones?

[flyingn]

Or a Tesla. And you can pile the fam into one 'o those rascals ...


Exactly. And not one banning from any snowflake types, huh? Nope

[flyingn]

Mother nature kills people too, shall we ban that as well?

Dammit, when are they gonna ban cancer!!??

[protree68]

I'm just wondering if I should buy one and if they will go up in value or if they will keep making these things from a car guy point of view they are cool but my new copo will still beat it at te track. I can't drive my copo to cruise Nite though

[Tenney]

Mother nature kills people too, shall we ban that as well?

Can she afford a Demon?

[JKZ27]

Didn't Ford require a SCCA competition license, or something, to purchase the Cobra R back in the 90s?

[Lee Stewart]

Mother nature kills people too, shall we ban that as well?

Really? Please explain the comparison between mother nature, a force of which we as humans have absolutely no control over versus a manufactured car that meets all government regulations, can be purchased by anyone and can do the quarter mile in 10 seconds flat. I am dying to hear that.

[Steve Shauger]

You would think Chrysler would require specialized driving classes as a precaution. This car has a top speed of 273 http://www.foxnews.com/auto/2017/09/14/video-suggests-bugatti-chiron-can-hit-273-mph.html

There are many extreme sports that have much higher risks, and as far as I know they are not regulated. I will say what Chevrolet did was a smart move.

[Steve Shauger]

Really? Please explain the comparison between mother nature, a force of which we as humans have absolutely no control over versus a manufactured car that meets all government regulations, can be purchased by anyone and can do the quarter mile in 10 seconds flat. I am dying to hear that.

There were certainly a few instances where some people were warned told to evacuate, but chose to ride the storm out and unfortunately perished. Yes a small percentage, but people make choices some turn out to be bad with tragic results.

[Lee Stewart]

You would think Chrysler would require specialized driving classes as a precaution. This car has a top speed of 273 http://www.foxnews.com/auto/2017/09/14/video-suggests-bugatti-chiron-can-hit-273-mph.html

There are many extreme sports that have much higher risks, and as far as I know they are not regulated. I will say what Chevrolet did was a smart move.

A precaution to what Steve? The fact exists that anyone with the money can go out and buy a Demon and proceed to kill themselves. Chrysler can't be held legally responsible for that. All that does is maybe . . . get them some bad press. Then again it can work in the opposite. Another fool with more money than brains thinks he's a better driver than the schmuck who killed himself and buys his own Demon.

[Lee Stewart]

There were certainly a few instances where some people were warned told to evacuate, but chose to ride the storm out and unfortunately perished. Yes a small percentage, but people make choices some turn out to be bad with tragic results.

True - but that can be said about all things in life. Shall we discuss gun ownership? How about smoking cigarettes? Hang gliding, parachuting, scuba diving in caves . . . the list goes on and on. ALL can and do end with tragic results. Will people stop doing them? I strongly doubt it.

[Steve Shauger]

True - but that can be said about all things in life. Shall we discuss gun ownership? How about smoking cigarettes? Hang gliding, parachuting, scuba diving in caves . . . the list goes on and on. ALL can and do end with tragic results. Will people stop doing them? I strongly doubt it.

I'm not here to debate peoples choices. I believe that perhaps in this case if the manufacturer offered a track-time course it would be beneficial, and perhaps save some lives. People making bad choices is ultimately up to the individual.

[scott s]

All hellcats and demons come with the srt driving experience(Bob Bondurant) as part of the cars price tag all u have to do is schedule a date and show up,they setup road courses, braking ,straight line,track etc its pretty sweet.

[Lee Stewart]

I'm not here to debate peoples choices. I believe that perhaps in this case if the manufacturer offered a track-time course it would be beneficial, and perhaps save some lives. People making bad choices is ultimately up to the individual.

And I disagree with even that caveat. Cars like the Demon should not be sold to the general public PERIOD. The risk of loss of life is too great. Sometimes it is necessary to protect individuals . . . from themselves.

There was a time when the factories built and sold ultra high performance cars because they were obligated to by sanctioning bodies like the NHRA. But these cars were earmarked for professional drivers not Joe Public.

[Lee Stewart]

All hellcats and demons come with the srt driving experience(Bob Bondurant) as part of the cars price tag all u have to do is schedule a date and show up,they setup road courses, braking ,straight line,track etc its pretty sweet.

You do realize that it's a one day affair right?

One day to turn Casper Milktoast into Ronnie Sox . . . :bs:

[Steve Shauger]

All hellcats and demons come with the srt driving experience(Bob Bondurant) as part of the cars price tag all u have to do is schedule a date and show up,they setup road courses, braking ,straight line,track etc its pretty sweet.

I wasn't sure, I thought Shelby purchasers also got that as well. Smart move good for them....

[Steve Shauger]

You do realize that it's a one day affair right?

One day to turn Casper Milktoast into Ronnie Sox . . . :bs:

Lee I think you should sell your old muscle car, because it's not as safe as any modern muscle car even at half the speed (BTW I don't own one). Look at the technology, safety cages, energy absorbing structure, braking, steering, suspension, tires, airbags etc....

There are many built cars with as much HP on the road. You may want to stay off the roads.
:3gears:

[Lee Stewart]

Lee I think you should sell your old muscle car, because it's not as safe as any modern muscle car even at half the speed (BTW I don't own one). Look at the technology, safety cages, energy absorbing structure, braking, steering, suspension, tires, airbags etc....

There are many built cars with as much HP on the road. You may want to stay off the roads.
:3gears:

Steve, I think you are now taking this discussion to a very personal level which frankly surprises me. You are supposed to lead by example. And you have failed to do so. Shame on you!

[Steve Shauger]

Steve, I think you are now taking this discussion to a very personal level which frankly surprises me. You are supposed to lead by example. And you have failed to do so. Shame on you!

This is not personal, I was merely stating that technology has improved and although cars are faster there are many technological advances that provide added safety. You were stating how dangerous these cars were and I was simply pointing out the added safety features.

There no shame in what I said, and I don't need a lecture from you on being an example. I've received plenty of complaints on your behavior and interaction with members and you've been warned. Lets move on......

[cook_dw]

Outlaw the car along with some of the replies in this thread..:rolleyes2: This topic is getting a little silly.

BTW if anyone is interested we have the option of adding users to our own personal "Ignore List" under the usercp tab which I highly recommend.. Only downside is when that "ignored " user is quoted it will show up.

[69LM1]

I wasn't sure, I thought Shelby purchasers also got that as well. Smart move good for them....

When I bought my Boss 302 in 2012, I got one with it at Miller Motorsports and went. I was very pleased with the class.

Rich

[scott s]

Yes sir i have taken the class several times and when my demon arrives ill go again!!If anything they will scare the hell outta u showing u what your car is capable of doing , and i took home abit more respect for the car also....JMO...

[ZiggyL78]

Ken, just curious what source you read that said it took 500 passes on a prepped track?
I have looked and all I can find is that the rear end took 500 launches before letting go and the test mule engine was good for at least 1100 ?

You surely can't be the same Ken that I know who took his brand new Buick GN to the track and ran faster than the magazine test cars ??? LOL

Please tell me you haven't turned into "your average Joe "

Hi Marc.
I'm getting more "average" every day.I bought a Vmax last spring and sold it in early summer.This was the second one I had owned.The first one was back in 1988 after I bought the GN.I was young and crazy and only dropped it once in the 3 years I had it.I guess I'm more "average" now as the bike scared the hell out of me.

A month ago I sold my Silverado SS and I had my eye on a SRT 300.The deal was done and just before I went to buy the car I stopped and thought.Do I really need another performance car as I still have the 442.I walked away and a week ago I bought a Lincoln MKS.Twin turbo of course.I love it.I've already ordered a tune for the car.I'm not that "average" yet.:)

I can't remember the article on the test driver bought I did hear it a couple of times.This is a quote that I just found.The article was more specific.

As Kuniskis notes, "Those times were set by our development engineer who has probably 500 passes in the car. So the average consumer out there, if they're a weekend racer, they're going to get in a couple of runs a weekend, a couple of weekends a year. It's going to take them awhile to get comfortable enough with driving this car well enough to get into those time frames."

[StealthBird]

I have no problem with the Demon, but if safety advocates want to ban a car, they should ban these things. Every time I see a man driving one, I laugh so hard Starbucks comes out my nose, so it's a dangerous vehicle to other motorists. http://www.4smileys.com/smileys/happy-smileys/happy-smiley07.gif (http://www.4smileys.com)

[429scj]

Let's have the "experts" ban everything that may be dangerous, to us.. Lord knows we need them to make the decision for us..When will it end?

[Jonesy]

Just dont drive one to the gas station with your cell phone on! LOL :blush::naughty:

[ZiggyL78]

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/2018-dodge-challenger-demon-nhra-ban-explained/

[ZiggyL78]

"Let’s repeat that. The Dodge Demon is NOT “banned” from dragstrips"


http://www.hotrod.com/articles/stop-saying-2018-dodge-demon-banned-dragstrip/

[black69]

I remember when people with 930s were crashing them when they first came out. Then the vipers, some people would not know how to corner the car.

Some people will crash cool cars. Some easier than others.

I myself do not think the R&D dollars would have flowed into the development of the engine in the Demon if it was constrained like the newer COPO camaros.


So with that said, I am fine with how the car is being rolled out, as a production vehicle.

[Lee Stewart]

Dodge Credits the 840-HP Demon for Increased Challenger Sales

At first glance, the 840-hp Dodge Challenger SRT Demon doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It makes way more power than anyone could ever need their road car to have, most American's can't afford it, and only a few thousand will ever be built. But Dodge says it didn't build the Demon to sell Demons. It built the Demon to sell regular Challengers. And apparently, that plan is working, even though Dodge still hasn't actually delivered a Demon to a single customer.

Speaking to the Detroit News, TimKuniskis,FCA's head of passenger cars, said Challenger sales are up, and he credits the Demon."We haven't built the first one yet, but people have been talking about this car since January," he said. "So the hype has been building and selling other Challengers. Our Challenger sales are through the roof. We're having an all-time record year to date."

http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/dodge-credits-the-840-hp-demon-for-increased-challenger-sales/ar-AAs9yf6?li=BBisPVf&ocid=spartandhp

[Stefano]

These cars are simply amazing. Here is what we are doing with Hellcats, Just Bolt ons and pump gas. There is another 75hp available on race Fuel or e85.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=10&v=PRvtGIvX_og

[69LM1]

Think about the sales increase if the "COPO" was like this, streetable, but barely. The ZL1 should have been the Z28 (I know old arguments) and the Z28, the ZL1!

.02

Rich

[scott s]

Took at little road test in a new demon this weekend,all i can say is wow loads of torque and awesome power that just seems endless, if u have one ordered i guarantee it will put a smile on your face!!!

[Hotrodpaul]

About 6 months ago I purchased a 2014 Shelby GT-500 with some simple bolt ons, smaller blower pulley, etc, that makes 710 Hp to the rear wheels, but if you know when to apply the power, and in the right conditions, it is controllable. Even in third gear, it will spin the tires and the rear will kick out. Just be conservative and use your head and get a feel for the car in an open, safe stretch of road, learn the limits, and what happens at those limits. A lot of my learning experiences have come from "showing off" and some of the results have not been good....

Paul

[Stefano]

NicKey is ready for the Demons.

[mockingbird812]

NicKey is ready for the Demons.


that's a convertible - that can't be very fast! ;>))

[tjs44]

I saw one on a flat bed last friday in Fullerton.The front end was torn off all the way on the drivers side to the back of the door.Not sure the driver made it out alive.Tom

[ZiggyL78]

I think it's only heresay.Someone told me that no Demons have been delivered and production started a few months ago.I wonder if there is a problem.

[scott s]

Tell your friend they have delivered around 50 so far!!!No problem really they are just slow .

[Yann]

Nobody see a slight ressemblance with what happenned with the muscle cars during the 70s? Being on a muscle car forum, I found it was funny to read comments telling that the Demon is dangerous, too fast, not safe written by muscle car lovers.

It's, in part, that kind of propaganda that contributed/started the end of the muscle car era. An HP war between manufacturers, resulting in ''too'' powerfull cars that started to scare ordinary people.

+ those modern muscles are probably 1000% safer than our old muscle cars..

As a french canadian it was hard to put words on my toughts but I think I explained myself pretty well.

[ZiggyL78]

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/three-dodge-demons-burn-down-inside-delivery-truck-electrical-issue-rumored-121413.html

Hot cars.

[Lee Stewart]

Nobody see a slight ressemblance with what happenned with the muscle cars during the 70s? Being on a muscle car forum, I found it was funny to read comments telling that the Demon is dangerous, too fast, not safe written by muscle car lovers.

It's, in part, that kind of propaganda that contributed/started the end of the muscle car era. An HP war between manufacturers, resulting in ''too'' powerfull cars that started to scare ordinary people.

+ those modern muscles are probably 1000% safer than our old muscle cars..

As a french canadian it was hard to put words on my toughts but I think I explained myself pretty well.

Three things killed the Muscle Car Era:

1. Insurance rates
2. Rising cost of gas
3. The EPA

Only the first can be linked to "dangerous cars" for the masses

[Yann]

Three things killed the Muscle Car Era:

1. Insurance rates
2. Rising cost of gas
3. The EPA

Only the first can be linked to "dangerous cars" for the masses

Yep I know all that. The similarity come from the HP war, too.

[Stefano]

What Motor Trend has to say about their experience with the Demon.


http://www.motortrend.com/cars/dodge/challenger/2018/2018-dodge-challenger-srt-demon-first-drive-review/

[Tenney]

That Demon crate's a pretty cool thing - be fun to mess w/the various items. Though keep in mind soccer mom in her Tesla minivan just has to squeeze the pedal ...

[Lee Stewart]

https://s26.postimg.org/tknsgwed5/88888888.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/x49q6ph2t/)

[69LM1]

That's a cool ad..... Gotta give it to Dodge, they are fully capitalizing on the current supercar era.

Rich

[scott s]

I happen to know where a extra one of these are if anyone is interested???thanks.