Muscle Car & Corvette Nationals 2017

[HO455]

A couple photos from the November Muscle Car & Corvette Nationals 2017 in Rosemont, Illinois. Here are two beautiful Oldsmobile 442 W-30 Convertible four-speed cars. The Burgundy Mist 1970 W-30 is an extremely rare 1 of 96 4spd convertibles built in 1970. It featured the special order all aluminum W-27 rear-end axle carrier and cover.

The 1971 Olds 442 W-30 convertible was sporting the beautiful Viking Blue paint with white stripes. It featured the very limited Muncie M-22 4spd option. It is one of the 32 four-speed W-30 convertibles produced in 1971 by Oldsmobile.

Both cars were restored by Oldsmobile specialists Thornton Restorations. The cars were just beautiful in person. Had a chance to speak with friend & Olds restoration expert Troy Thornton and both car owners. Both cars shared very interesting histories. It was a great time talking about Oldsmobile’s and Olds history. It was another stellar MCACN show in 2017. Thanks for checking out the photos - Peace!

[Postsedan]

Big Pow Wow meeting in progress in the 3rd picture :)

Loved both of these Oldsmobiles......Thanks for sharing :)

Dan

[69z28302]

W-30's are one of my favorite cars

[Stefano]

The Oldsmobile's @ MCACN did not disappoint this year. There were many excellent examples.

The Burgundy mist convertible was first restored by a Chicago area Olds guy in the late 1980 early '90s. It had no paperwork to establish its claimed W-30 pedigree way back then.

The Blue '71 W-30 featured a reproduction trim tag and a restsmped engine. The VIN does match a known authentic W-30, which I had inspected when in the hands of the original owner some years back.

Both of theses olds convertibles looked spectacular.

[HO455]

The Oldsmobile's @ MCACN did not disappoint this year. There were many excellent examples.

The Burgundy mist convertible was first restored by a Chicago area Olds guy in the late 1980 early '90s. It had no paperwork to establish its claimed W-30 pedigree way back then.

The Blue '71 W-30 featured a reproduction trim tag and a restsmped engine. The VIN does match a known authentic W-30, which I had inspected when in the hands of the original owner some years back.

Both of theses olds convertibles looked spectacular.


Stefano – Yes, I heard the same about both cars. It just shows how truly rare fully documented and bulletproof cars are today. With the advent of all the fraudulent paperwork (aged window stickers, order sheets – broadcast cards etc.) being produced now which can fool even the most astute experts - it will become an extremely difficult if not impossible proposition to completely document these cars unless produced in Canada. There are still some of the old timers (Ed Van Dril - Phil Renouf) in the area that remember these cars but again they are just going from memory as to which were authentic cars.

From what I understand the Burgundy mist car also may not have started out originally as a four-speed car but was later converted to one. However, it is believed to be a real W-30 car. The Illinois owner of the car said he was not looking to sell the car but was planning to just drive and enjoy it. He has a large collection of thirty various Muscle cars including the 1967 Impala SS also restored by Troy Thornton. Troy said he could and would not verify that the Burgundy mist car was an authentic W-30 although he believed it to be.

The Viking Blue 1971 W-30 trim tag was switched with another car some time ago by a Chicago Car broker. They apparently tried to speak with the current owner of the car which sports the legitimate trim tag - They are hoping to switch it to the Viking Blue car from where the legitimate tag originated but were unsuccessful in resolving the issue. So that is going to be a tough problem to solve. I feel for the owner of the Viking Blue car.

Even though both of these cars have questionable histories they remain beautiful restorations and examples of Oldsmobile Muscle.

[Stefano]

Just to set the record straight: I was trying to be politically correct, which btw I'm not very good at. The difference between a std 442 and a W-30 is basically bolt on parts. I don't see how anyone can verify or certify a restored car, even if restored long ago, without appropriate documentation and owner history, to go along with the car.

I do not know the owners of either of these two Oldsmobiles, but do know some important aspects of their histories. The Burgundy Mist 442 was NOT a W-30 and was NOT a 4 speed car, when it left Lansing Michigan. I believe that is all which really needs to be stated for the record.

As far as the Blue '71. It was referred to me by Jude Hetick and was in very rough condition both body and frame. The Broadcast card , and the original trim tag, which the broad cast card is tied to, was removed and placed on another 1971 std 442 which was subsequently sold as a W-30. I have heard talk that the original tag is being reunited with the restored car bearing the correct VIN.

It is my opinion that members and enthusiast who have any desire to be involved with Oldsmobiles make note of the parties involved at all levels, with re stamping, fake tags, authenticating, restoring and selling these vehicles as IMHO, they will be back on the market some day.

[Charley Lillard]

"The Burgundy Mist 442 was NOT a W-30 and was NOT a 4 speed car, when it left Lansing Michigan."
So that would make it a W30 clone and nothing at all like the story board displayed in front of it ?

[DW31S]

I agree with Stefano regarding positively documenting W-30 models, but I’ll go a few steps farther and include Ram Rods, W-31s, and W-32s. With the advent of “miraculously found original” (bogus) docs these days, it is paramount to have a qualified marque expert with an unbiased connection to the buyer or seller inspect not only the automobile, but any and all associated supporting documentation/pedigree. The hobby (passion for me) has changed by leaps and bounds, and sadly, not all in a positive direction. The internet has exposed fraudulent cars, sellers, and drivetrain stamps, but it has also educated those less than scrupulous souls who weave the web of deception. Now, with Oldsmobiles commanding top dollar, some new blood has been infused to our faithful group that tended to help each other with the Lansing Hot Rods. Cars that were thought to have faded into the sunset, or never existed at all are appearing out of thin air with high-point restorations and “alleged” newly discovered paperwork.

[DW31S]

"The Burgundy Mist 442 was NOT a W-30 and was NOT a 4 speed car, when it left Lansing Michigan."
So that would make it a W30 clone and nothing at all like the story board displayed in front of it ?
Are the cars researched before they are accepted into MCACN displays? Were the showboards provided by the car owners or the restorers? As for the restoration shop, would this be the same facility tied to the red 1970 W-30 Convertible 4-Speed debacle that was sold, unsold and then sold again by B-J (with quite a drop in sale price)?

[bigsixman]

On the burgundy mist 442 convertible, were the black W-30 stripes the default color for that dark of an exterior color? I have not seen this color combination before.

Both are beautiful examples.

[AutumngoldL78]

I looked up the restorer on Facebook.Looks like their Oldsmobile W-30 guys. Surely these guys new the history of the cars before the restorations. It's a shame if they did because they do phenomenal work.To me it gives their shop a black eye.

[Lee Stewart]

On the burgundy mist 442 convertible, were the black W-30 stripes the default color for that dark of an exterior color? I have not seen this color combination before.

When it came to 442 stripes Old recommendation was that the stripes should match the top and or the interior color whenever possible. To get a different color the salesman had to specify which color the customer wanted.

[earntaz]

When it came to 442 stripes Old recommendation was that the stripes should match the top and or the interior color whenever possible. To get a different color the salesman had to specify which color the customer wanted.

My 69' W-30 was black with white guts ... gold stripes.

[Lee Stewart]

My 69' W-30 was black with white guts ... gold stripes.

1969 was different from 1970 -1972:

https://s18.postimg.org/xzz8mflrt/screenshot_5706.png (https://postimages.org/)

[earntaz]

I wonder why Olds changed the options besides saving $$ ...

What does the asterisk indicate?

[bigsixman]

Thanks for posting Lee.

[Lee Stewart]

I wonder why Olds changed the options besides saving $$ ...

What does the asterisk indicate?

Those colors were not available on the Toronado

[Stefano]

"The Burgundy Mist 442 was NOT a W-30 and was NOT a 4 speed car, when it left Lansing Michigan."
So that would make it a W30 clone and nothing at all like the story board displayed in front of it ?

Yes, it is a 442 with the W30 option and 4 speed added as well as some other changes, so a clone.

[442w30]

On the burgundy mist 442 convertible, were the black W-30 stripes the default color for that dark of an exterior color? I have not seen this color combination before.


Look at the top right of this attached file.

Hence, white stripes were the default for Burgundy Mist, so the person working the order form specified a different color.

[earntaz]

Those colors were not available on the Toronado

Thanks Lee ...

[bigsixman]

Look at the top right of this attached file.

Hence, white stripes were the default for Burgundy Mist, so the person working the order form specified a different color.

Thank you for posting that info. I just had never seen that color combination before on a W car Olds.

[442w30]

Thank you for posting that info. I just had never seen that color combination before on a W car Olds.

Just to add, black was not the default stripe for Burgundy Mist, but it's not unusual in the least because black matches everything, just like white.

I think a gold or red stripe paired with this color would be a bit more of a stand-out IMHO.

[Tracker1]

Troy said he could and would not verify that the Burgundy mist car was an authentic W-30 although he believed it to be.



Errr...excuse me? He put his name on a placard as having "DOCUMENTED" the car

[Canuck]

Gents

Here is a little more background on the viking blue car for those who had not see the discussion on Classic Olds many months ago on this one.
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums/cars-sale/106085-1971-w-30-convertible-sale-not-mine.html

I have no comment on the burgundy car other than hearing it started out as a regular 442 and its claimed to be documented by a noted restoration shop.

With all the logistics involved with MCACN its going to be pretty hard to start doing investigations on cars to qualify them for display. There are a lot of smart people out there for every marque so the frauds will be found out.
For those who pour a ton of money into a car knowing its not the real deal, its your money, but the minute you go to sell it the internet will scream with the facts and at least create enough doubt that may affect the sale of that car.

[Xplantdad]

all this type of info is what makes this site great! Thanks Paul...

[AutumngoldL78]

Errr...excuse me? He put his name on a placard as having "DOCUMENTED" the car

That's what I saw when I wrote my message earlier.

[HO455]

Just to set the record straight: I was trying to be politically correct, which btw I'm not very good at. The difference between a std 442 and a W-30 is basically bolt on parts. I don't see how anyone can verify or certify a restored car, even if restored long ago, without appropriate documentation and owner history, to go along with the car.

I do not know the owners of either of these two Oldsmobiles, but do know some important aspects of their histories. The Burgundy Mist 442 was NOT a W-30 and was NOT a 4 speed car, when it left Lansing Michigan. I believe that is all which really needs to be stated for the record.

As far as the Blue '71. It was referred to me by Jude Hetick and was in very rough condition both body and frame. The Broadcast card , and the original trim tag, which the broad cast card is tied to, was removed and placed on another 1971 std 442 which was subsequently sold as a W-30. I have heard talk that the original tag is being reunited with the restored car bearing the correct VIN.

It is my opinion that members and enthusiast who have any desire to be involved with Oldsmobiles make note of the parties involved at all levels, with re stamping, fake tags, authenticating, restoring and selling these vehicles as IMHO, they will be back on the market some day.


I totally agree Stefano. As I said - The only W-30's that can be documented and authenticated are those that were produced in Canada, 1972 X VINs, or original cars with complete owner histories! At least that is how I see it in today’s collector car climate. Fraud or fake cars are a huge problem for any Chevrolet or Oldsmobile enthusiast.

I go way back with these cars long before they were so sought after. I have seen a lot of change over the years as the big money guys became involved looking to cash in. I now see many cars which started out as something completely different than what they are represented to be today. It is a big problem!

Here is an example of the fake documentation that I was speaking about. Pontiac and some Buick cars are the way to go if you want a real GM car.


https://www.ebay.com/usr/vin-number-aged?_trksid=p2053788.m1543.l2754

[RST]

I totally agree Stefano. As I said - The only W-30's that can be documented and authenticated are those that were produced in Canada, 1972 X VINs, or original cars with complete owner histories! At least that is how I see it in today’s collector car climate. Fraud or fake cars are a huge problem for any Chevrolet or Oldsmobile enthusiast.

I go way back with these cars long before they were so sought after. I have seen a lot of change over the years as the big money guys became involved looking to cash in. I now see many cars which started out as something completely different than what they are represented to be today. It is a big problem!

Here is an example of the fake documentation that I was speaking about. Pontiac and some Buick cars are the way to go if you want a real GM car.


https://www.ebay.com/usr/vin-number-aged?_trksid=p2053788.m1543.l2754

Word! X 2

[flyingn]

I agree with Stefano on this one. If its made into a W30, just leave it at that and let others knows what it really is. I think most will appreciate the car more then if someone fakes it.

[HO455]

1968 -72 OLDSMOBILE CUTLASS 442 W30 NEW NOS FACTORY BUILD SHEET LINE CARD RARE - get em' while their hot.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1968-72-OLDSMOBILE-CUTLASS-442-W30-NEW-NOS-FACTORY-BUILD-SHEET-LINE-CARD-RARE/322876700637?epid=5009280101&hash=item4b2cf377dd:g:rhQAAOSwOA1aHBzj

[442w30]

That can't be good.

[Mr70]

That's the Parts Place here In Il.

[HO455]

Yes, Parts Joe. I have a sneaking suspicion we are going to continue to see an ever expanding population of documented W-30s. ;)

[Stefano]

He has been selling blank cards for over a decade on eBay.

[HO455]

I guess that explains all the so-called W-30's with build cards nowadays -