Unsuspecting buyers with repro documents

[fsc66]

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[PeteLeathersac]

'

Subject VIN 194677S10652
You know it Paul but worse may be how bogus paper touted as genuine also raises other questions?:hmmm:
Looks like they sidestepped eBay on the deal too...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-Chevrolet-Corvette-Black-/323221301665

:beers:
~ Pete

.

[Charley Lillard]

Shouldn’t you tell him if you know the docs are fake ?

[fsc66]

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[mssl72]

Yes Charlie, I should. The issue is that the Admin on the C1 C2 site has an issue with me when ever I point out that repro documents are being presented as authentic. He has removed me from the forum when I sited repro documents being represented as authentic when members were selling cars and advertised the documents as originals. He claimed I was interfering with forum member sales.

Paul

That's not cool, Paul!

[PeteLeathersac]

'

Too late to save the guy anyway so why burst his happy buyer bubble now?
He'll probably Google the Vin and land here at some point...whether he wants to believe the realities then or not.
Again, repo docs presented as genuine often raise other concerns that could be more serious than the hokey paperwork itself.
:hmmm:
~ Pete

.

[Lynn]

'

Subject VIN 194677S10652
You know it Paul but worse may be how bogus paper touted as genuine also raises other questions?:hmmm:
Looks like they sidestepped eBay on the deal too...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-Chevrolet-Corvette-Black-/323221301665

:beers:
~ Pete

.

I think you are missing the last "2".

194677S106522

So Paul, someone on the Corvette forum asked why no charge for leather. Just curious. Is that one of the reasons (I am sure there are others) why you know it is fake?

[Mr70]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.
When you own a car with reproduction docs for your enjoyment,the day you sell it,tear them in up front of the new buyer and throw them in your own garbage can.
That way you can now be disconnected with them as ever being presented as real in the future,and the new buyer has to order new repro docs and will help keep the repro doc guys in business.
Like Paul. :)

[fsc66]

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[MosportGreen66]

WOW. I've seen this happen too many times. There is a guy on FB who sells fake documents identical to the ones posted by buyer of the '67 Corvette. It is fraud. Any time I see a red '67 BBC convertible with side pipes and claimed leather interior I cringed because I'm fearful the car may also have a reproduction trim tag. That is my emotion here - not fact.

The moderators of the Corvette Forum are puppets for a marketing company who own the site. They are not car guys, they are revenue seeking employees following bylaws made during round tables. Paul, don't take it personally - I know wonderful hobbyists who have been subjected to the unfair treatment on the CF. Two of which are prominent members here...

Dan

[Lee Stewart]

'It's a catastrophe.' French museum learns half its paintings are fake

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/article210101264.html

[njsteve]

'It's a catastrophe.' French museum learns half its paintings are fake

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/article210101264.html

Yes, they learned that half their paintings of Corvettes from the late 1800's were fake! Wonder how they figured it out? :-)

[MosportGreen66]

Paul, isn't this is a grey area for you? Don't you sell reproduction documents?

http://www.winvoices.com

[fsc66]

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[Charley Lillard]

Thanks for watermarking them.

[MosportGreen66]

Yes, and it's very hard to maintain the high level of integrity in which I run my business with others that have no issue reproducing documents for high level or very rare cars without first authenticating those cars. I do recreate documents for cloned or non-numbers matching cars, however all of these documents will have watermarks on them which cannot be removed. I advise customers that they should never attempt to present my documents as originals. I keep a database of all documents and customers also. The issue I have is, when someone attempts to present documents, trim tags, vins, etc. as authentic when they know fully well they are reproductions. Lastly, I turn down approx 25% of the orders I receive for various reasons.

Thanks for asking,
Paul

Are the documents you flagged here as reproduction your documents?

[fsc66]

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[67BelAir427]

Yes, they learned that half their paintings of Corvettes from the late 1800's were fake! Wonder how they figured it out? :-)

A museum in Japan had a curator who was found guilty of stealing rare oil paintings and replacing them with perfect forgeries that he painted himself. After he was sentenced , he agreed to identify the paintings that he forged. He found several that were perfect fakes, but not his work. Turns out that someone else was doing the same thing at the same time!

[njsteve]

Amazing. Sorry to hijack the thread but you'd think that the forgers could make some serious bucks simply painting modern portraits of people in the original masters' style and selling them with full disclosure. I think it would be pretty amazing to have a "Day 2" Rembrandt of me and the family hanging on my wall.

[MosportGreen66]

I need to ask the community - how is no one else outraged by this situation?

Because the world of Corvettes is microscopic, turns out I had this car flagged in my database as having a reproduction trim tag after a friend asked for my opinion of the tag. I never saw the VIN though.

This situation frustrated me immensely so I stepped up and reached out to the buyer who posted on the Corvette Forum. I am NOT affiliated with him or this transaction in any way shape or form. I did this because I have unfortunately have the experience of dealing with a dishonest seller (a member here) which cost me $10k +. I gave him candid advice and he acted promptly. Kuddos to him! He sent pics to a very well known Corvette expert (a member here too) and the expert and I had communication and agreed on the details of the car – real VIN, fake trim tag, fake paperwork. The buyer had correspondence with the seller and the seller agreed to take the car back without financial implication. The return/refund is slated for later this week.

As a community of classic car enthusiasts, we should continuously be assertive and vigilant against reproduction documents, dishonesty, and fraud within our hobby.

Dan

[x33rs]

I read through all that and don't see any mention of whether the car was represented as real or fake or whether the buyer knew one way or the other.

[Steve Shauger]

I need to ask the community - how is no one else outraged by this situation?

Because the world of Corvettes is microscopic, turns out I had this car flagged in my database as having a reproduction trim tag after a friend asked for my opinion of the tag. I never saw the VIN though.

This situation frustrated me immensely so I stepped up and reached out to the buyer who posted on the Corvette Forum. I am NOT affiliated with him or this transaction in any way shape or form. I did this because I have unfortunately have the experience of dealing with a dishonest seller (a member here) which cost me $10k +. I gave him candid advice and he acted promptly. Kuddos to him! He sent pics to a very well known Corvette expert (a member here too) and the expert and I had communication and agreed on the details of the car – real VIN, fake trim tag, fake paperwork. The buyer had correspondence with the seller and the seller agreed to take the car back without financial implication. The return/refund is slated for later this week.

As a community of classic car enthusiasts, we should continuously be assertive and vigilant against reproduction documents, dishonesty, and fraud within our hobby.

Dan



Way to step up, and help rectify the situation. :beers:

[mr 707]

smart move by the seller take the car back. He would have big big legal problems

[GrumpyJeff]

I read through all that and don't see any mention of whether the car was represented as real or fake or whether the buyer knew one way or the other.

Wonder how far back in ownership the fake tag & docs go ? Sounded like the seller was just selling it for his father's estate ?

[MosportGreen66]

Good questions... Apparently the seller is not a car guy. Cars were owned by father. Sons want out. I have not spoken with sellers but they have more than one car. I find it tough to believe they did not know nor did they inquire. I don't want to infer further because they are taking the car back.

Dan

[Nasblu]

I need to ask the community - how is no one else outraged by this situation?

Because the world of Corvettes is microscopic, turns out I had this car flagged in my database as having a reproduction trim tag after a friend asked for my opinion of the tag. I never saw the VIN though.

This situation frustrated me immensely so I stepped up and reached out to the buyer who posted on the Corvette Forum. I am NOT affiliated with him or this transaction in any way shape or form. I did this because I have unfortunately have the experience of dealing with a dishonest seller (a member here) which cost me $10k +. I gave him candid advice and he acted promptly. Kuddos to him! He sent pics to a very well known Corvette expert (a member here too) and the expert and I had communication and agreed on the details of the car – real VIN, fake trim tag, fake paperwork. The buyer had correspondence with the seller and the seller agreed to take the car back without financial implication. The return/refund is slated for later this week.

As a community of classic car enthusiasts, we should continuously be assertive and vigilant against reproduction documents, dishonesty, and fraud within our hobby.

Dan


That has happened to me on the Corvette Forum several times. Once I pointed out an issue with a trim tag it was an St Louis built body 67 Corvette with A.O smith built trim tag obviously the tag was changed. They treated me like I was trying to cause trouble. Every time I look at a car with any kind of documentation I approach them with the assumption that they are fake until I can prove it other wise. To many cars out there have original paperwork or "original drive-train" these days. If I didn't know any better it would seem like everyone (back in the day) babied their cars and knew they would be worth a lot of money one day?

Matt.

[fsc66]

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[olredalert]

----With that said, Paul, the actual sidepipes (not the covers) are very poor copies. Makes me wonder if the car came with sidepipes, although I see nothing other than the pipes to base that on........Bill S

[crash]

Paul,

If you look through the pictures of the trans, a 1967 Corvette Muncie should have a passenger side Speedo tail housing...

So much for a correct restoration...

Hope this helps... Crash

[Nasblu]

1967 Corvettes used a 584 tail housing (speedo hole on passenger side) not the earlier 429 casting used on 63-64 Muncie tail housing with the (speedo hole driver side). Some claim that early 65 corvettes used the 429 casting tail housing before the 584 but I believe they have never found an actual example of this being true.

[fsc66]

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[TimG]

For $100 the buyer could have sent the three documents off to have them validated. One hundred bucks vs spending whatever they did for a car. This is not uncommon, I saw it with a car that cost somebody over $200,000 last year. If somebody doesn't know how to tell fake documents from real ones, ask for help. If somebody doesn't know how to tell a fake stamp from a real one, ask for help. $100 may seem like lots of money, but there's lots involved in the validation process. It may seem like you're risking the deal of a lifetime holding off on buying a car for a day or two, but that's not always the case.

[Xplantdad]

Good for you, Dan!

[rsinor]

I've often thought there is a simple way to slow all of this down,

1 GM could require a licensing fee for use of their logos.

2 The producer of the document could include a statement that said reproduction not intended to be used as authentic documentation, or something similar.

[MosportGreen66]

I've often thought there is a simple way to slow all of this down,

1 GM could require a licensing fee for use of their logos.

2 The producer of the document could include a statement that said reproduction not intended to be used as authentic documentation, or something similar.

Roy, I agree. Doesn't mean you get a home-grown-hero attempting to make these docs on Photoshop but it is a good start.

Paul posted above he puts a water mark on his documents. I'd love to see what this water mark is.

Paul - can you please post a photo for us to see?

Dan

[rsinor]

In my world a watermark might be a nice touch, but it does nothing to protect the hobby, believe it or not the hobby is what this discussion is about. Without self preservation it goes away when fraud is discovered.

If an individual spends his major disposable cash on a fraudulent car, he can be so devastated he is out of the hobby forever.

Just as an example I know where there is a lawsuit waiting to happen over the blatant misrepresentation of a 1.3M dollar car. Collector car fraud is pursuable for 7 years from discovery. That means it is forever, if the current owner does not discover it and he transfers it after fifteen years. the new owner has seven years from when he discovers it. When these cases get tried they role downhill to someone, that someone is usually the party that forged the document or trim tag, the item that made it fraud to start with. My point is 1.3M is a big number maybe not to the current owner but to most and eventually someone will discover it. It could just as easily be 60,000, or 100,000 both are potentially big numbers to someone starting in the collector car hobby.

[cook_dw]

If somebody doesn't know how to tell fake documents from real ones, ask for help. If somebody doesn't know how to tell a fake stamp from a real one, ask for help. $100 may seem like lots of money, but there's lots involved in the validation process. It may seem like you're risking the deal of a lifetime holding off on buying a car for a day or two, but that's not always the case.


This is exactly right.. The reality of all this is the buyer has to do the work.. All we as hobbyist can do is support the ones that ask and continue to expose the ones that pop up. As long as greed and ignorance are in the equation there is nothing more ultimately we can do.

[fsc66]

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[fsc66]

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[Charley Lillard]

On unsubstantiated high value, rare cars, non-numbers matching. Back of all those documents:
You only put the watermark on the back ? Couldn't I just copy the front and then there would be no watermark on the back ?

[ZLP955]

I know this divides car communities, but personally I really can't see why any reproduction documentation is acceptable, in any circumstances; your car either has (genuine) original docs, or it doesn't.

[fsc66]

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[mr 707]

i dont see why the guy needed those fake documents for a 390 horse car. Was it a small block car originally? a 390 isnt exactly a rare car. Like over 5000 production. Whats was the point ? Yes original docs are great. but for a 390 ??

[Mr70]

I know this divides car communities, but personally I really can't see why any reproduction documentation is acceptable, in any circumstances; your car either has (genuine) original docs, or it doesn't.

Because they're nice conversation pieces at gatherings like car shows & cruises.They should be used for display purposes only & not to validate a vehicle.I display a repro window sticker on the passenger side of my Chevelles' windshield,and it draws people over to talk.We're all getting older,and todays generation is clueless what these things cost back then.They like to see what was an extra cost option,and what was not.
Also,it's hard to see the specific transmission callout or the ratio of the rear end on a car sitting still,but they can on a window sticker,as well as the Horsepower of the engine in some cases,and the dealership it was sold at too.
Repro docs help to understand the car better,and should always be disclosed as repro.
Like I said earlier,tear them up the day you sell the vehicle so it can't come back to haunt you later.Let the new buyer order a new repop from Paul.Overall it just helps explain the car better & makes it all come together,which in turn draws people together.

[SS427]

Paul, from what I have seen you offer a very reputable product and do not yourself try to deceive anyone. I think it is usually the next guy down the line we have to worry about, not the original purchaser. It is great that you watermark the documents but as Charley has said, nothing is stopping anyone from copying the document and passing it along as real. As I have said before, I feel the best way to keep people from using your service in a deceptive way is to post all the VIN's as well as the car's information (even if partial but with enough information to know which car for comparisons sake) as well as which documents were made for said vehicle on your own existing site. I inspect dozens of cars each year and waste a lot of my time and the customer's money inspecting a car only to find a reproduction (fake) document. If there was a site available that I could look on before we went any further it would help a lot of people. That being said you have been very helpful and forthright when I have contacted you and asked if a specific document was one of yours.

I understand the privacy issue but go beyond that and believe that if people are trying to keep it quiet there is usually a good reason for that and it is usually not a good one.

[67since67]

i dont see why the guy needed those fake documents for a 390 horse car. Was it a small block car originally? a 390 isnt exactly a rare car. Like over 5000 production. Whats was the point ? Yes original docs are great. but for a 390 ??

Actually 390 and 435 production were virtually the same, 3,832 vs 3,754.

[TimG]

A red 390 roadster with sidepipes is not an inexpensive car. One with paperwork, original engine and judging history will bring $150,000 easily.

[ZLP955]

Because they're nice conversation pieces at gatherings like car shows & cruises.They should be used for display purposes only & not to validate a vehicle.
So for 'conversation' purposes why try to mimic the appearance of a genuine document? You could easily type up a simple one-page sheet of paper that lists out all the options, selling dealer etc, and display that - and NOBODY is ever going to be taken into thinking that's genuine provenance.

[MosportGreen66]

So for 'conversation' purposes why try to mimic the appearance of a genuine document? You could easily type up a simple one-page sheet of paper that lists out all the options, selling dealer etc, and display that - and NOBODY is ever going to be taken into thinking that's genuine provenance.

Took the words out of my mouth.

Mr.70 - I completely disagree.

Dan

[fsc66]

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[ZLP955]

Paul, I'm not part of the NCRS community so I can't answer your specific question, other than to say opinions and official stances of all organisations are (and should be) subject to review and change, that is how constant improvement works. Perhaps an increase in misrepresentation (intentional or not) of something originally well-intended became apparent and caused a rethink to limit the inadvertent damage done?

[firstgenaddict]

Amazing. Sorry to hijack the thread but you'd think that the forgers could make some serious bucks simply painting modern portraits of people in the original masters' style and selling them with full disclosure. I think it would be pretty amazing to have a "Day 2" Rembrandt of me and the family hanging on my wall.

They do... main to wall in one generation and need the paintings to match.

[fsc66]

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[Pusher_Man]

For $100 the buyer could have sent the three documents off to have them validated. One hundred bucks vs spending whatever they did for a car. This is not uncommon, I saw it with a car that cost somebody over $200,000 last year. If somebody doesn't know how to tell fake documents from real ones, ask for help. If somebody doesn't know how to tell a fake stamp from a real one, ask for help. $100 may seem like lots of money, but there's lots involved in the validation process. It may seem like you're risking the deal of a lifetime holding off on buying a car for a day or two, but that's not always the case.

Very interesting thread.

I wanted to make one point I felt was worth the space.

I’d like to point out that yes, there are some on this thread and board (and others for $100) who could help someone ID fake docs and cowl tags, etc., but for the most part the general public has no knowledge of any of them. Many people are naive, and the others who seek out help don’t know who the “good” helpers are and who aren’t.

Thankfully I’m blessed to have 3 good buddies that help me on a regular basis, and they’ve even referred me to a couple more on here in a couple instances.

But, my first rodeo was with a Shelby and I googled for an appraiser and came across what appeared to be just what I needed...boy was I mistaken and as another poster pointed out, it could have led to me being jaded by this hobby and never having anything to do with it again. Thankfully it was a great car even though it was a terrible “appraiser” and I dodged a big bullet.

My main point is this...I believe most people would invest $100 to be sure about their 50k+ investment if they only knew that option existed with a great source.

Thanks to you all.
Kasey

[rsinor]

I posted questions about NCRS and their condonation for years allowing allowing advertising from document reproduction companies on their site and within their publications. Now NCRS and members are the first to exemplify their disdain for document reproductions. I want to hear an explanation from NCRS executive personnel who managed the company for the years this was allowed or members who are the first to express their opinions now but never had issues with their own supporting vendors.
You want credibility in this discussion, then explain the hypocracy to me and I'll be happy to entertain your prerscpective.

Respectfully Paul

Darn, I knew it was NCRS’s fault, it always is, they don’t judge paper never have probably never will. In fact to display paper it has to have their validation.

Bloomington is the organization that requires paperwork or you lose points.

As far as advertisers, I think you will find that somewhere around 2010 they stopped alllwing the fraudulent ads, a board of directors that serves two years and changes could be and in some cases was clueless to who the bad apples were or still are.

But your right it’s their fault, not yours. They make you do it. I get it.

Roy

[TAR6569]

Speaking of repro corvette docs, here's an old repro window sticker the seller thinks is real.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-CORVETTE-C2-OWNERS-MANUAL-ORIGINAL-WINDOW-STICKER-MSRP-OEM-COLLECTIBLE-A/153020037698?hash=item23a0b47a42:g:uEIAAOSwA4Ba9DU e

[PeteB]

Speaking of repro corvette docs, here's an old repro window sticker the seller thinks is real.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-CORVETTE-C2-OWNERS-MANUAL-ORIGINAL-WINDOW-STICKER-MSRP-OEM-COLLECTIBLE-A/153020037698?hash=item23a0b47a42:g:uEIAAOSwA4Ba9DU e

Very interesting thread. Im very curious as to how you can tell this doc is a fake? Just trying to learn.

I bought a 1969 NOVA SS L-48 with no docs that confirm what it is.

I did however find the Fisher body sheet in the back seat with L-48 on it. I would assume this helps some?

[TAR6569]

For one thing, they spelled Manhattan wrong! haha. I've seen so many of these documents over the last 20 years, I can usually tell at first glance without thoroughly analyzing it. Guess I've developed a knack for it. There are some members on here that send me doc pics when they have questions about them being originals. I'm also happy to help if anyone needs assistance. Paul is excellent at it as well.

[PeteB]

This is what I found in my Nova.

[Big Block Bill]

FWIW The fonts do not look correct either. Not to mention it does not state what color the car is.

Bill

[x33rs]

Question....

Not being critical here, but regarding TAR6569 and I'm assuming Bill's comments on the window sticker posted by TAR

Can we really be sure of fake documents because of misspellings? I mean these were typed by normal people and mistakes did happen. Seems like fonts aren't a definite either since it would seem obvious to me they weren't all typed up on the same machine. Or are you speaking of fonts from the few words that are ink printed on the page?

For my piece of mind and to be absolutely 100% certain, are there better ways to weed out the fakes that takes human error out of the equation?

Because at this point in time, as far as docs go, and the amount of docs being called fake this day and age, I just don't put much faith, or value, in any paper documention for Chevrolets these days.

[x33rs]

I should be clear, I'm not asking for secrets and if that question is asking to reveal them, don't answer. I just want to try and understand that the so called experts that are pointing out fakes are basing their assumption on more than just a misspelling of a word. Because for my piece of mind, I would need more than that to convince me.

Thanks,
Larry

[Charley Lillard]

Wasn't it also common for the actual dealer to type up a window sticker ?

[Mr70]

So for 'conversation' purposes why try to mimic the appearance of a genuine document? You could easily type up a simple one-page sheet of paper that lists out all the options, selling dealer etc, and display that - and NOBODY is ever going to be taken into thinking that's genuine provenance.


Why restore an old car with reproduction parts mirroring the original used by the factory when it was sold brand new?...Because that best resembles how it looked when it was sold brand new.
If they just came with "a simple one-page sheet of paper that lists out all the options,selling dealer etc," then they'd do that today too.

[MosportGreen66]

Wasn't it also common for the actual dealer to type up a window sticker ?

During an NCRS technical event a few weeks ago, Grenning shared photos of not only dealer errors but also factory errors on documents, trim tags, vin tags and even engine stamps. Human error is not a good metric for determining authenticity. Font style and type, maybe...

[Big Block Bill]

The ebay listed window sticker has no indication of color for the car listed. Every REAL 1967 Corvette window sticker I ever saw had the color of the car on it, that's what I remember, but I am old, so take it for what it's worth. Just offering an Opinion, and you know what those are like.

Bill

[x33rs]

Wasn't it also common for the actual dealer to type up a window sticker ?

Thanks Charley. That's what I was thinking, hence the reason for my question.

[x33rs]

During an NCRS technical event a few weeks ago, Grenning shared photos of not only dealer errors but also factory errors on documents, trim tags, vin tags and even engine stamps. Human error is not a good metric for determining authenticity. Font style and type, maybe...

Those were my thoughts. Since we already know of mis-stamped trim tags and the like. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't out in left field someplace. Thanks MosportGreen66.

[x33rs]

The ebay listed window sticker has no indication of color for the car listed. Every REAL 1967 Corvette window sticker I ever saw had the color of the car on it, that's what I remember, but I am old, so take it for what it's worth. Just offering an Opinion, and you know what those are like.

Bill

Was not my intention to discredit you in any way. Matter of fact, what you point out does make one want to look closer at the window sticker and scrutinize.
My reasoning was that there are so many documents now pointed out as fakes and people using spelling or misprints as reasoning, I'm starting to wonder if real ones now have been mistakenly considered fake.
My father still has all his paper work for his 69 GTO he bought new (and still owns) I'm now half tempted to pull it all out and start combing it over for discrepancies, lol.

[TAR6569]

The dealer never typed up the window sticker. That was something done at the plant or maybe the zone office. Only a few times have I seen a real typed window sticker. Usually it was for a car that was used in company service. Could have been so the sticker shows the dealer same up top instead of the zone office. Or could have been to get the sticker down to 1 page from 2 if it was loaded with options (and being sold through a Chevy dealer). I suppose it could have been used to fix a mistake too if it was that big of a problem.

The fonts are something I usually pick up on. The printed font is very distinctive to my eyes. I can usually tell if someone tried to type it on a line or used a regular printer. The typed stickers I have seen all used the same typeface from what I recall.

This vette sticker doesn't have the exception codes either, which would have been on there, even if it was originally typed. No dealer codes, and yes, it should have the paint and interior listed.

I think I would have enjoyed that technical event. I remember seeing a misspelling on a original window sticker once, some time ago. Not sure if I've seen another. I'd definitely look closer if it had a mistake. Do you remember what types of errors were on the documents? I've seen errors on vin and cowl tags. Saw a Wagon with a four door sedan vin tag once. Was factory. Also, a 16437 Impala that had a 16447 vin.

[Keith Seymore]

During an NCRS technical event a few weeks ago, Grenning shared photos of not only dealer errors but also factory errors on documents, trim tags, vin tags and even engine stamps. Human error is not a good metric for determining authenticity. Font style and type, maybe...

Pontiac Motor Division went the entire 1964 model year with the Sales Code 644 description "FAN HEAVEY DUTY" on the window stickers.

K

[ZLP955]

Why restore an old car with reproduction parts mirroring the original used by the factory when it was sold brand new?...Because that best resembles how it looked when it was sold brand new.
If they just came with "a simple one-page sheet of paper that lists out all the options,selling dealer etc," then they'd do that today too.
Fake docs are problematic because they appear credible to all but a few experts. Just read threads like this one to see knowledgeable people who have been around these cars much of their life, genuinely asking how to spot the subtleties of a good fake.
Reproduction parts don't offer a sense of immediate credibility, and only hint at what a car may, or may not, be - further diligence and appraisal is still required.

[StealthBird]

The dealer never typed up the window sticker. That was something done at the plant or maybe the zone office. Only a few times have I seen a real typed window sticker. Usually it was for a car that was used in company service. Could have been so the sticker shows the dealer same up top instead of the zone office. Or could have been to get the sticker down to 1 page from 2 if it was loaded with options (and being sold through a Chevy dealer). I suppose it could have been used to fix a mistake too if it was that big of a problem.

The fonts are something I usually pick up on. The printed font is very distinctive to my eyes. I can usually tell if someone tried to type it on a line or used a regular printer. The typed stickers I have seen all used the same typeface from what I recall.

This vette sticker doesn't have the exception codes either, which would have been on there, even if it was originally typed. No dealer codes, and yes, it should have the paint and interior listed.

I think I would have enjoyed that technical event. I remember seeing a misspelling on a original window sticker once, some time ago. Not sure if I've seen another. I'd definitely look closer if it had a mistake. Do you remember what types of errors were on the documents? I've seen errors on vin and cowl tags. Saw a Wagon with a four door sedan vin tag once. Was factory. Also, a 16437 Impala that had a 16447 vin.

Dealers did type up window stickers. They weren't supposed to, but they did.

Sometimes a car hung around a dealer for months, driven by the dealer owner, maybe a demo car, and sometimes they would remove the window sticker for safety's sake because it blocks your view. You can imagine there were times when that window sticker would be lost, and the dealer was supposed to request a new one from Zone, but some dealers simply loaded up a blank window sticker and had the dealer secretary or cashier type up a new one.

I keep a database of all the factory mistakes made on 1962-1981 Pontiac window stickers. Most are spelling mistakes, some subtle, others quite embarrassing. Sometimes Pontiac corrected the error the following year, other times the error stuck around for several years. It also varied by plant as to how options were formatted and terminology.

Mike

[TAR6569]

Where would get the blank form from? From the dealer demo's I have seen, they simply typed up the options on the dealer invoice or used the car shipper document if the prospective buyer wanted to know the equipment.

It seems like it would be a lot of work for the dealer to type one up correctly as you have to know the standard equipment. I'd love to see one.

[StealthBird]

I have a couple original 1969 Pontiac blanks, with the carbon paper and backing intact, along with the perforated ears from the tractor feed paper.

The Zone Office, as well as dealerships, were not as careful about accuracy as we would expect. When a window sticker was supposed to be reprinted, they used the punched card to feed the printer. I think occasionally they couldn't locate the card so they simply stuck a window sticker blank into a typewriter and called it a day. The typewriter versions I've seen are usually pretty accurate and follow the formatting for that particular plant.

Aside from typos on factory window stickers, I also have a few other examples where there are handwritten notes (dated) stating that the window sticker was reprinted for a specific reason. One was for a billing error, another was for a transmission change. Some dealers bent over backwards to make the sale, and if some guy wanted a Lucerne Blue 1971 GTO that was on the lot, and he wanted it today, but the deal breaker was that it had Rally II Wheels instead of Honeycomb Wheels, a salesman would locate another vehicle on the lot with Honeycombs and have them swapped out. Anything to make a sale. I believe in those cases the dealership may type up their own window sticker to reflect the change.

Mike

[firstgenaddict]

Request a new one from Zone leads one to believe there is a data set with the VIN numbers corresponding to the option list for said VIN.

[Mr70]

Fake docs are problematic because they appear credible to all but a few experts. Just read threads like this one to see knowledgeable people who have been around these cars much of their life, genuinely asking how to spot the subtleties of a good fake.
Reproduction parts don't offer a sense of immediate credibility, and only hint at what a car may, or may not, be - further diligence and appraisal is still required.

My earlier repro parts reply was to when you asked,"why mimic the appearance of an original document?"..I never said anything about reproduction parts offering any credibility to a vehicle.

Reproduction display docs should be destroyed by the owner before re-sale.

[ZLP955]

^ Or better, in my opinion, not exist at all.
I respect your views, perhaps we can agree to disagree.

[MosportGreen66]

^ Or better, in my opinion, not exist at all.
I respect your views, perhaps we can agree to disagree.

Tim, my position - I will never agree with any aspect of our hobby that cognitively or not perpetuates fraud. Period.

Dan

[x33rs]

Maybe we should just stick to collecting Pontiacs and Fords. :grin: At least Jim Mattison and Kevin Marti offer the real deal.

[Keith Seymore]

Maybe we should just stick to collecting Pontiacs and Fords. :grin: At least Jim Mattison and Kevin Marti offer the real deal.

For which we Pontiac enthusiast are very grateful.

K

[Mr70]

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.Repro documents have their place as they're made for display purposes.Honest sellers disclose that beforehand & just destroy them.

By this definition,should reproduction car parts never be produced today too?
They too have their place & serve an honest purpose.

[cook_dw]

That would be great if everyone was honest.. But that is not the case. What happens if you die unexpectedly? Will your wife and/or kids know that fake docs are to be destroyed? What about the other guy that has the same thoughts as you? Eventually somewhere down the road this is gonna happen.. This is EXACTLY why I stated what I did previously.. I'll quote it for the lazy that do not want to go back..


This is exactly right.. The reality of all this is the buyer has to do the work.. All we as hobbyist can do is support the ones that ask and continue to expose the ones that pop up. As long as greed and ignorance are in the equation there is nothing more ultimately we can do.


The argument being discussed here will never end. Just like politics..

[Mr70]

I agree not everyone is honest,that's why websites like this one help aid in what's original and what isn't.
Never go by what some widow or her children tell you their deceased husbands/fathers car is..At least I wouldn't.
Some might say a nieve buyer who refuses to be knowledgeable & informed in what to look for in a repro doc is lazy.....some might.

[HawkX66]

I had a window sticker made up. It's obviously a repro. I didn't buy the one that's made to look old etc. It's a brand new piece of paper. I laminated it. If anyone thinks it's original, they need a dope slap. IMO, there is nothing wrong with it. Like Darryl said, this is like politics. Thankfully my opinion is the right one. :D

[JayR]

^ Or better, in my opinion, not exist at all.

Totally agree. I've been in this hobby for more than 45 years and have never agreed with reproduction documents. You don't need repro window stickers to interest people or generate discussion. The same content can be shown on a display sign or separate piece of paper without implying there is anything original or official about the information. Reproduction window stickers are bogus and frequently have made-up or incorrect information. Yes, they should be destroyed before a vehicle is put up for sale, but I doubt many are. Cars in the biggest North American auctions display bogus window stickers all the time. I have yet to see a repro window sticker displayed that contains the word 'reproduction' anywhere on the document, which can only leave the impression that it's original, and that's wrong. JMO.

Bob

[HawkX66]

But everyone is ok with clones...

[PeteB]

I personally don't like clones. There are way too many and way too much false info out there.
Some of the prices are outrageous also.
I'm just not into this stuff for making money. I just like the sheer enjoyment I get from a REAL documented car. Nothing more nothing less.

[Big Block Bill]

[QUOTE=JayR;1401352]Totally agree. I've been in this hobby for more than 45 years and have never agreed with reproduction documents. You don't need repro window stickers to interest people or generate discussion. The same content can be shown on a display sign or separate piece of paper without implying there is anything original or official about the information. Reproduction window stickers are bogus and frequently have made-up or incorrect information. Yes, they should be destroyed before a vehicle is put up for sale, but I doubt many are. Cars in the biggest North American auctions display bogus window stickers all the time. I have yet to see a repro window sticker displayed that contains the word 'reproduction' anywhere on the document, which can only leave the impression that it's original, and that's wrong. JMO.

Bob[/QUOTE
I agree completely, BUT, it was my experience when I showed Corvettes, As stated in this post prior: There MUST be a Window Sticker attached to the car real or repro or points will be deducted at Bloomington Gold and NCRS judged events

Bill

[x33rs]

I have yet to see a repro window sticker displayed that contains the word 'reproduction' anywhere on the document, which can only leave the impression that it's original, and that's wrong. JMO.

Bob

That's a judgement call by an individual and not the documents fault.

The way I see it, to be safe, as far as Chevrolets go, any document you see should be considered repo.

Personally, I don't put much stock in the paperwork these days anyway. I let the car present itself. Do the homework. If I can't identify what the car is or should be with the parts and pieces that are present, on a Chevrolet that doesn't have an untampered data plate or vin that provides enough information, and have to rely on paperwork alone.......I just don't buy the car.

I agree with most, it's neat to see this stuff displayed at a show, it adds to the vintage appeal of a classic car, but when I see one, it's nothing more than show props to me. Assuming every one I see is real and original would just be stupid on my part.

[x33rs]

For which we Pontiac enthusiast are very grateful.

K

Yes we are :wink: I have it for my bird and my mustang. As far as the Z goes, the data plate tells all, I don't necessarily need the paperwork to tell me what it is.
Technically the bird and mustang can also be deciphered and identified through the vin, and tags but....

[PeteB]

I have the fisher broadcast sheet from my nova. Matches up nice with the cowl tag. But I guess I could assume that maybe the backseat was changed? I don't have the PoP for it. Just this sheet.

I will reconsider displaying it at shows.

[the427king]

Doc rebuild was never one to mince words....http://www.docrebuild.com/curr-evnt/currentevents-89.html

[Charley Lillard]

Here is a Doc Rebuild story where he accuses others including me of changing a Bloomington Gold Certificate from silver to gold. This was a 68 L89 Vette I owned and then Tim Gilmore owned. It in real life had a real Gold Certificate and was shown in the Bloomington coverage issue of Vette Vues show the list of gold winners including this car. How it scored silver on the judging sheets but awarded gold I have no idea but I'm sure nobody faked anything. I even called Doc and spoke to him but he never mentions that.


http://www.docrebuild.com/dr-r-web/CurrentEvents-24.html

[the427king]

But he did list you as a "celebrity" owner.....

[TAR6569]

that ebay seller he refers to is out of business I believe. Used to have a website too, which is no more. I thought his documentation package cost more than that. He was even making cowl tags. He reproduced so many of the paper items found with the owners manual. I could always point out his work. He would add extra rubber ink stamps to the documents/warranty books he made and sold. Stuck out like a sore thumb. Like stamping the OK Used Car logo in the warranty book. Why would a brand new car have any OK Used Car stuff with it! haha

Then there was Bill Clement? down in TX. He was selling repro warranty books as NOS claiming they were simply consigning them for someone else and "we think they are real". He was asking several hundred a piece and people were buying them! Did the same thing for blank window sticker forms.

[mr 707]

With the releasing of the ncrs documenti i bet owners with those fake pops were sent scrambling.

[rsinor]

Bob[/QUOTE
There MUST be a Window Sticker attached to the car real or repro or points will be deducted at Bloomington Gold and NCRS judged events
Bill[/QUOTE]

Simply not true, NCRS does not allow a window sticker to be displayed unless it has been validated by their service, they assign no points to any paperwork and never have.

[fsc66]

They need to change the verbiage on their page advertising that Bloomington Gold requires a list of options, or their reproduction window sticker:

Window Sticker

Also called a Monroney Label, this is the sticker that is affixed to a new car when it is delivered to the consumer. A law was passed by Congress in 1958 requiring all automobile manufacturers to affix a price label to all new automobiles showing Manufacturers Suggested Retail Prices for a vehicle and all options installed at the factory. This law was proposed by Senator John Monroney, and was to begin with new 1959 models.

If your car is a show car, this informational piece is a must! Some car shows such as Bloomington Gold require you to have a list of options on the car. What better way than a reproduction of the window sticker? If you are ordering a reproduction window sticker, you must order the build sheet at the same time.

Here is the link to their page:
https://www.corvettemuseum.org/learn/library-archives/build-sheets-window-stickers/

Paul

[rsinor]

They need to change the verbiage on their page advertising that Bloomington Gold requires a list of options, or their reproduction window sticker:

Window Sticker

Also called a Monroney Label, this is the sticker that is affixed to a new car when it is delivered to the consumer. A law was passed by Congress in 1958 requiring all automobile manufacturers to affix a price label to all new automobiles showing Manufacturers Suggested Retail Prices for a vehicle and all options installed at the factory. This law was proposed by Senator John Monroney, and was to begin with new 1959 models.

If your car is a show car, this informational piece is a must! Some car shows such as Bloomington Gold require you to have a list of options on the car. What better way than a reproduction of the window sticker? If you are ordering a reproduction window sticker, you must order the build sheet at the same time.

Here is the link to their page:
https://www.corvettemuseum.org/learn/library-archives/build-sheets-window-stickers/

Paul

This link is to the National Corvette Museum who can reproduce the original window sticker and build sheet for every bowling green built Corvette they are not figments of the imagination but the real document reproduced. No different than Marti Report and PHS. Their is a difference when you create a document from the air rather than produce a document from actual historical records from the manufacturer.

[fsc66]

Roy:
"Simply not true, NCRS does not allow a window sticker to be displayed unless it has been validated by their service, they assign no points to any paperwork and never have"
So, what you are saying is that any of these reproduced documents by the corvette museum would have to be validated, before they would be allowed to be displayed, correct?
Additionally, there are hundreds of people that think Bloomington requires either a list of options, window sticker or reproduction window sticker, to display the option list. I am not talking about judging the documents just that most people understand it's required. Looking through any Corvette forums, you will see the same. However you are saying, Blookington will not even allow a window sticker or reproduction window sticker to be displayed unless it has been validated?

Paul

[rsinor]

So, what you are saying is that any of these reproduced documents by the corvette museum would have to be validated, before they would be allowed to be displayed, correct?
Paul

NCRS does not offer any type of validation service for the 1975 through current paperwork the NCM can produce actual copies of, so no NCRS does not require those documents be validated. NCRS does not judge paperwork. They do require the blue sky figment of your imagination documents for 1962 through 1971 Corvettes be validated before you even display it at one of their shows, again it is not judged.


Additionally, there are hundreds of people that think Bloomington requires either a list of options, window sticker or reproduction window sticker, to display the option list. I am not talking about judging the documents just that most people understand it's required. Looking through any Corvette forums, you will see the same. Paul

Bloomington is not NCRS! NCRS is a non profit hobbyist group, Bloomington is a for profit privately owned organization and unlike NCRS they do assign judging points to the documents.

However you are saying, Bloomington will not even allow a window sticker or reproduction window sticker to be displayed unless it has been validated?
Paul

No I said NCRS would not allow window stickers to be displayed unless they could be validated. The NCM documents are authentic copies just like the PHS documents and the records available from the Marti report on Fords.

NCRS does not judge paperwork, NCRS wants nothing to do with the counterfeit cottage industry. again NCRS is not Bloomington.

[fsc66]

Roy, just for the record, what company is doing the reproduction documents for PHS?
Secondly, I have been to the Syosset Exotic Cars, NCRS judged event and there were about 25 cars there. Approx 6-7 of the cars judged displayed window stickers that were not validated and some pretty poor reproductions. I understand that the documents themselves are not being judged but they surely had them displayed. Unless the various chapters have their own rules.

Paul

[MosportGreen66]

Roy, just for the record, what company is doing the reproduction documents for PHS?
Secondly, I have been to the Syosset Exotic Cars, NCRS judged event and there were about 25 cars there. Approx 6-7 of the cars judged displayed window stickers that were not validated and some pretty poor reproductions. I understand that the documents themselves are not being judged but they surely had them displayed. Unless the various chapters have their own rules.

Paul

Paul, what does it matter? Roy has made it clear that the documents are not judged. The vendor is a competitor of yours (regardless of "quality" of reproduction). The act was done by the car owner or car restorer. This deviates from the topic of conversation and skirts around core issues at hand.

Dan

[rsinor]

Roy, just for the record, what company is doing the reproduction documents for PHS?
Secondly, I have been to the Syosset Exotic Cars, NCRS judged event and there were about 25 cars there. Approx 6-7 of the cars judged displayed window stickers that were not validated and some pretty poor reproductions. I understand that the documents themselves are not being judged but they surely had them displayed. Unless the various chapters have their own rules.

Paul

my comments were directed at Regional and National events where the National Judging chairman is present and can enforce the rules, chapter events are just that chapter, if no national club officials are there all bets are off.

[rsinor]

Roy, just for the record, what company is doing the reproduction documents for PHS?
Paul

I believe PHS does them, you would have to ask them.

[fsc66]

All:
I've decided that any further correspondences I have relating to this thread, I will handle via PM. There is much more to this issue than meets the eye and there is no reason to make it public at this point.

Thanks,
Paul

[TimG]

It was a good time to be out of the Country for three weeks, I just got all caught up on this thread this morning. Thank you for your comments, Roy.