1979 TA hi performance motor

[the427king]

looking to put a high performance motor in a 1979 TA 400 455 or whatever else...aluminum heads ok or not ...only requirements are that the original "shaker" setup be retained which probably means keeping the original carb . . Also not looking to cut up or modify the car/etc

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Do you have a certain HorsePower range in mind ?
Do you have a Pontiac core engine available besides the matching # engine to build ?


on side note - is the car a factory 400 4spd or a 403 Automatic ?

Mainly that will just tell if you need a replacement air cleaner base.
The 403 Olds is offset , if you go back with a Pontiac engine , you will need a base that is centered - not offset.
Not that hard to find , just worth mentioning.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

looking to put a high performance motor in a 1979 TA 400 455 or whatever else...aluminum heads ok or not ...only requirements are that the original "shaker" setup be retained which probably means keeping the original carb . . Also not looking to cut up or modify the car/etc

In no way trying to heckle or troll , just supplying some info to you - and get more info from you.


400 455 or whatever else ... not looking to cut up or modify the car/etc.

= No probo , all the Poncho engines are same exterior size/platform and will lay right in there. 326cid-455cid
The only catch is to stay 1970 and newer , for motor mount variances.
Older than 1970 can cause need for adapter plates that raise the engine height and create headaches with hood shaker clearance.


aluminum heads ok or not

= Not sure whether you are asking if they are okay to use - and keep the shaker ? Most are fine for that , but some of the newer exotics are not as friendly for that.

If they fit your budget , they are a plus .
One reason being ability to build higher Comp Ratio with better Quinch Zone - and still be pump gas friendly.



Either way you have about 100 build options regardless of iron or aluminum head that will make tremendous street power on pump gas.
The higher the HP goal with iron heads - the trickier it gets with proper ignition timing and detonation using only pump gas - in most cases.


If its the 800cfm Qjet carb from a 79 400 4spd TA - that is a great unit for a Hi-Po build. Not sure what the Olds 403 came with on the carb.


Are you looking to buy a complete ready to roll engine outright ?

Or build your own with your own supplied core - and just seeking CID / Head / Cam recommendations ?

Or looking for a good core to start with ?

[the427king]

It is a 400 4 speed car. Open to most anything Dont have a set budget,if i like it,id spend more I guess. Id like around 400HP, or more Wouldnt mind 400 cu in w aluminum heads and intake w headers and stock carb .....Its a 31K mile car 4 speed with every option black on black w blue decals and 4 wheel discs.But motor was apart when i got it,not for any obvious reason it checked out OK

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Okay, if you're sure you really want to do this with a 31k car - GROOVY Man.
I can relate, 79 400 4spd 4wdb are the best all around TA ever built !
If you plan to keep it , why not have it the way you want it.

They are bringing Strong Coin now though , 31k with #'s match is a prime candidate for shiny coins. If you rebuild the original PWH code engine instead , and just flip it.

400hp is real simple and you can do iron heads pretty easy.
Since you are okay with buying new aluminum heads (< sweet) - from that point it will only cost about $100 extra to hit around 500-550hp .
And can still go higher and higher on HP with pump gas - for more additional coins.

We need to get you hooked up with Cliff Ruggles and you guys work a plan based on your comfort zone. If he is in proximity of your logistics.

He builds incredible pump gas engines , and usually comes in with better quotes than most everyone else. Has tried and true combos that dont have to break the bank just for the sake of selling more expensive parts.

He is also a master Q-Jet builder/tuner.
It will support your HP goals no probo.

I bought a 79 4,4,4 TA from original owner in 1985
Dk Blue/Blue/Blue Bird , Non T-Top , all options except Pwr Antenna.
Sold to my youngest brother in 2002 or 03.
He'll keep it forever , and we're gonna build him something just like you are wanting to do.

If you think you will sell it in near future - you will recoup about $0 of the expenditure of the Hi-Po replacement/substitute engine.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

One more caution -
just in case you decide to buy a core engine off craigslist tomorrow -

Stay away from 400 engine blocks with Part Number/Casting Number that have a lot of 5's in the part number.
Forgot the exact part number.
And forgot the date ranges too. :blush:
Think its 1975 and 1976

Regardless - that specimen is the only bad specimen , and the only specimen with numerous 5's in the number.
So just remember the 5's.
Number located along bellhousing-to-block flange.

1979 4.4.4. TA's are such great cars, they just really need more juice.
Everything else about them is just right.

[njsteve]

If you want to review my Gramma car thread from the last couple years you can follow the swap we did from the original 160 hp Pontiac 350 to the 400 hp 455. It was easy - just bolted right into place with the same parts. There are even certain cylinder head combinations that give you a really nice 9.5 to 1 compression ratio. Our 1975 350 just happened to have that exact pair of heads on it to begin with so it ended up just being a short block swap with a 1971 455 block I found locally. I even did a shaker hood swap last month with factory parts.

http://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=113621&page=7

[Tracker1]

I vote stroker kit - keeps all the mods inside and 400hp easily done, otherwise follow Baron's recos. Especially on the cliff ruggles carb - no need for aluminum heads here Chuck, but maybe a street port and clean-up of the originals. The 78-79 481988XX W72 block is one of THE best Pontiac blocks for high-horse mods so no worries there.

That'll be a nice car - good luck.

P.S. The weak block Baron is referring to is the 500557 block used mid-1975 to 1977. Not a great block to build 400+ horses with. Avoid.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Wow Steve you really did a number on Granny's Bird.
Seems like i remember that maybe you were upgrading that engine for your son / with your son on PY in the past.

Both of these units were mine in 1985.
Thats not me in the picture, my hair was never that long.

These 4.4.4. TA's would actually wake up quite a bit with some normal cheap easy upgrades. #1 was disabling all emission devices and cutting the scoop open, then true duals and recurving distributor. Mine was fairly swift and i really enjoyed that car.
Little brother was born in 79 , and he's proud to have my 79.

http://www.yenko.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=118081&stc=1&d=1529502338

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Solid info from Steve and Tracker.

The only thing i would hesitate about - is building up that #'s engine.
It is a prime piece to build , especially as a 455+ stroker.

But the way 77-79 4spd TA's have taken off , you'd ruin half the value and desirability if you broke that #'s engine.

With 400-500+ HP in one of these - YOU WILL DRIVE THE HELL OUT OF IT.
They take the road real well, it really can't be helped at that point.

[the427king]

Yes, the sticker price on irt is over 10K and it has everything including cb and power antenna and ive not seen many black black w all blue graphics. ....i suppose i wouldnt mind using the original block and heads and intake and making it 400 plus hp from there
I will not hook up emissions there are 200 hoses under the hood. ! i dont want to use stock exhaust manifolds really ... plus i wont have to have an engine laying around for it if i redo the original ....what are best options on that? compression/rods/cam etc etc

[fortim]

Good info in Steve's thread. For a Trans Am I agree, I would build a '71-72 455 HO, 9.5 to 1, runs on pump gas and cool as a cucumber.

Save the numbers engine for when you sell it.

[njsteve]

If you go peruse this thread by BentwheelBob (who now owns and restored my black 455HO Formula) you can see what he did. He built a 461 stroker with 474hp/550 torque off the original 400 engine in his 78 T/A. Bob is a great guy and quite entertaining to read. And he had a set of modified 6X heads built for the project (similar to the heads that I used on my 455, from the original 350)

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=755425

engine info here:
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=755425
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=755425&page=18

dyno results
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=755425&page=39

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Majority of the 4.4.4. cars were basically full option loaded cars in the 10k range with 2 page window stickers.
However, in that respect - the CB and the Pwr Ant. are the 2 things you usually do not see on most of them. Unless they were Silver Tenth Anniversary Editions (TA/TA)

Have only seen 1 Blk/Blk/Blue Birds ... just in internet pictures ... and was maybe even this same car you have now. It was also low miles being offered by a classic car dealer a few years back.

You can buy what we call a "garden variety" 400 core engine pretty cheap usually. $200-500
1972-up Lemans/Grandprix/GTO/Bird base engine
That is what i would do.
And then buy the forged component stroker kit to have around 455cid and approx 450-500hp. 9.2 - 9.7 Comp Ratio

That platform would have less initial investment than the cost of a pair of aluminum heads by themselves.

Then a pair of repo Over-Size RamAir high flow cast iron exhaust manifolds (aka 70 T/A Ram3 units - with Larger than factory outlets) , and a full performance bolt-on exhaust system from PYPES made for those manifolds , with a transverse mounted muffler.
Clean easy install D-I-Y.

Have the heads and intake and exh mans - gasket matched.
Mild clean up and bowl blend on the heads.

Cliff on the carb
Cliff on distributor recalibration
Cliff on the heads and valve/seat cut specs
Cliff on the cam selection
Basically Cliff on everything as far as build parts and recommendations , maybe even assembly.

His build platforms have mostly all already been dyno proven on the HP targets. No guess work. And no confusion with 27 different cam suggestions from interwebbers.

[njsteve]

The Gramma car was the test bed for the installation video of the new Pypes oversized manifolds and exhaust system. It definitely woke the car up. I can honestly say that the Gramma car will leave our '73 SD455 in the dust. I did a little comparison timed sprint of a local on-ramp. The SD455 would get to the end of the short ramp at 50 mph. Gramma hit the same spot at 70 mph.

angry engine sound video clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptAubfuN8N4

install video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b9nQOYa4Hk

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Save the numbers engine for when you sell it.
:biggthumpup:
Excellent strategy and sound advice !

... 461 stroker with 474hp/550 torque.... Bob is a great guy and quite entertaining to read.

Bob Rocks ! :beers:

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Just to get you fully prepped -
Open Shaker vs. Closed Shaker is 2 different worlds completely.

You'll want to find a substitute 77-80 shaker top to cut open - if yours isn't already cut open. I think they might even offer an electric "functional flapper" D-I-Y upgrade for these now ?

[njsteve]

Just to get you fully prepped -
Open Shaker vs. Closed Shaker is 2 different worlds completely.

You'll want to find a substitute 77-80 shaker top to cut open - if yours isn't already cut open. I think they might even offer an electric "functional flapper" D-I-Y upgrade for these now ?

This is the guy who sells the parts: http://pontiactransamshakers.homestead.com/

I actually used original 70-72 parts for my project since they were easily locate-able in my basement. :-)

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Man
we are Hooking this dude UP with the mojo stuff

We Rock ! :headbang:
lol

[9999]

P.S. The weak block Baron is referring to is the 500557 block used mid-1975 to 1977. Not a great block to build 400+ horses with. Avoid.
I have a 557 block that I was considering using and have done some extensive research. The conclusion was roughly this:
Do not take it past 6000rpm. Keep it below 450 hp if going to ~5500rpm. If sticking at a max of 4500-5000(low-grunt street engine; torque monster), there is a reasonable chance you could get 500+hp and it would live safely.
RPM is going to be the thing that causes the weaker 557 castings to slightly contort and that would then encourage the crankshaft to fail.
I would say for anything around 400hp, a 557 block would make a fantastic replacement motor so you can preserve the original block. Thankfully they are relatively common.


Have fun with the build!

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

He built a 461 stroker with 474hp/550 torque off the original 400 engine in his 78 T/A.

Knowing Bob , it didn't seem kosher that he would have used the #'s engine from his low mile Gold Y88 4spd Survivor to do that build . :hmmm:

He didn't use it
He used a donor "garden variety" 400

The original W72 engine is on a stand and tucked away. I pieced together a spare XX block that is stroked, 6X-4 heads with the full SD Performance port and polish job, and an original intake that was also heavily worked and cleaned up by SD.

The carb is a spare with rebuild kit by Cliff, and the distributor is an aftermarket HEI. It was dynoed at Kauffman

The numbers were peak HP of 474 at 5100 rpm and peak torque of 549 at 3600



I think Bob might have went a bit "soft" on the Cam.
HP and peak rpm could have been moved on up - if he had wanted to.
I'm sure he got what he was wanting to get though.

[njsteve]

These days some guys are getting some crazy power with modern roller cams in old Pontiacs. It is truly amazing.

Bob did have to do some parts chasing though - like the spacers for the valve covers to clear the roller rockers...and messing with the A/C brackets so they would clear over the passenger valve cover...and getting the air cleaner plastic elbow to fit without hitting the driver's side valve cover, etc.

Bob and his "youthful ward" are experts at solving problems. In the end it was an amazing result that looks totally stock from the outside.

I'm a cheap old bastard so I went the old school route with the $90 Summit racing cam, forged pistons, ARP rod bolts, and traditional hipo parts. 400 HP and 500 lbs of torque ain't bad for a low budget 455 build.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

I'm the same way - cheap old bastard / spend thrift.

He went beyond necessary in several areas of his build for that level of power. But thats Bob. And its bulletproof.
And i know he is happy.

That platform could have went around 600hp , possibly more.


400 HP and 500 lbs of torque ain't bad for a low budget 455 build.
a blind squirrel could find that nut with an 068 base cam and JC Whitney re-ring kit
lol- just jabbing with you Steve
But it really is about that easy.

[Craig_Maiorana]

Years ago we took an 81 Bandit and put a 69 400 with a set of Edlebrock alum. heads and it made for one mad bandit .. cars is still running that set up to this day .. just a thought

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Did that 81 have a "Turbo" style hood
or
Shaker style hood ?

Mostly asking because can't remember for sure if 81 was even offered with a Shaker.
Know it could be swapped if desired , either way.

[9999]

Yes, T/A's in 1981 would have their normal centered Shaker scoop for the normal 301, or the Chevy 305. And just as in 1980, they would get the offset bulge/lights for the 301T.


I find it nuts that anyone in 1980+ that had $10k+ burning a hole in their pocket would even think about getting a new TA versus finding anything in the 1970-72 range, or a 73-74 Super Duty. You could have bought an SD, and restored it to brand new with factory supplied parts for less than 6-7 grand at that time. Or just waited for a low-mileage car to come around.




....ahhh whatever.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Thanks 9999, i knew 80 was that way but wasnt sure on 81.

He didn't say if his was Turbo or not, or which hood .
then we'll know


But he did say it was a Bandit Edition
Halfway lead me to think maybe it was a Tbo car

79 is where most of my knowledge stops.
never followed the 301 cars , they were always behind me.