F41 Rear Springs with 6 Leaves

[9C1Beater]

Hey All...I'm posting some photos of the F41 rear suspension on my 1974 Nova COPO 9C1 police car. I have posted quite a bit of info on the car in another thread in this section, and figured some of you might like to see this car's unusual rear springs.

I took quite a few photos of the rear suspension and was investigating if it was essentially the same as a Yenko Nova when I discovered one marked discrepancy between the two suspensions...Yenko Nova rear springs have 5 rear leaves and my car has 6.

The car has 120k original miles and was ordered by a Chevrolet executive named Rick Mahoney at the Los Angeles Zone Office for use as a high-speed police car demonstrator (it was a "Brass Hat" car...see documents in my other post). He used the car for 5 1/2 months and then sold it to Los Angeles County where it was used by the LA Sheriffs Dept as an undercover car at the West Hollywood station (it still has a shotgun rack in its trunk). It sat undriven in a garage in the Hollywood Hills for 32 years until I bought it in 2017.

It has many GM stickers still on its suspension components, including a yellow sticker on the driver's side with the part number "340399". The outer brackets have partial blue and white GM paper stickers, and the right support rod has a very faded paper tag that I believe says "Special" on it. The left support rod has a splat of dark green paint visible at the very bottom (it isn't visible in any of the photos, but it's there).

In addition to its mostly Z28 suspension components (from the factory), it also has rear drums and shoes from a Chevelle station wagon.

I am curious if these are possibly big block Nova rear springs (even though the big block was no longer available by the time this car was built). The car handles with virtually no lean in very hard cornering, and it rides very firm (almost like a truck when going over freeway expansion joints...no give in the suspension).

[Flying Undertaker]

It's possible that these were one-off springs due to this car being a prototype as a police car. It is a Nova 4 dr. and besides having the F41 performance handling package needed for pursuit, it must also have the ability to place a couple large perps in the back seat as well. Don.

[9C1Beater]

Don, you are no doubt correct.

[WILMASBOYL78]

As a Nova fan, I am enjoying the discussion on the Nova police cars...especially the details on the equipment and upgrades that were part of the package.

Thanks for sharing :beers:

-wilma

[Kurt S]

Why do you say it has a Z28 suspension?
I'm not super knowledgeable on 74 Novas, but it appears to have the normal F41 Nova suspension.
Can you post a picture of the complete bottom of the buildsheet?

[9C1Beater]

Kurt, I know you have done a lot of research on 1st Gen Camaros, and you realize that GM engineers borrowed heavily from the Nova parts bin to create the 1st Gen Camaro, then did the same to upgrade the 3rd Gen Nova with 2nd Gen Camaro parts. If you read all I have posted on this car and its incredible documents on Steves Nova Site under "1974 Nova 9C1 Police Car...only survivor of 17 built", you will understand the historical importance of this car. It is the 2nd Nova police car ever built and was ordered by a GM executive who was the West Coast Fleet Sales Manager at Chevrolet's Los Angeles Zone Office in Century City (he was an executive and this was a "Brass Hat" order...with a GM document that even says "Brass Hat"...and no comments on here about that document...that really surprised me).

I have shown the car to Harry Hammond, who was one of the 2 engineers tasked with turning the 4-door Nova into a useable police car...he said that involved borrowing heavily from the Z28 parts bin. Harry's co-engineer in the project was Jim Ingle, who was an assistant to Vince Piggins at the GM Tech Center in Warren, MI. All 3 of those men knew the Nova's floor pan and suspension were virtually identical to a Z28's, so that's where they looked to improve its handling and braking...they weren't re-inventing the wheel, so they used the best stuff available...Z28 stuff. They experimented for 2 months with various springs, shocks, bushings, sway bars, and wheels at the GM Proving Ground in Milford, MI to get their Nova police car to handle better than the Plymouth Satellite, Dodge Coronet, and AMC Matador that they knew it had to beat in order to get the LA Sheriffs Dept to order them. I posted a GM document earlier in this post where Jim suggested that Z28 eye bushings be used on the rear springs to control axle hop under hard acceleration (which indicates that this lowly 4-door was capable of doing burnouts...it is a muscle car). That original GM document shows that this car was borrowing from the Z28 parts bin. Another example is that Harry said it has a Z28 steering box. It also has a Z28 dual snorkel air cleaner, Z28 4-spoke steering wheel, and F41 special performance suspension...Harry said it was essentially a 4-door Z28. Another interesting thing about it is that it has 6-leaf rear springs...one more than a Yenko Nova or 2nd Gen Z28. If you would like to see the car, I plan on driving it up to Detroit this summer for the "Orphans Show" in Ypsilanti (I see you're right next door in Ann Arbor). Harry Hammond gave me many interesting GM documents relating to the development of the Nova police car, but obviously did not save everything. He is now in his early 80s and doesn't have the time, documents, or memory to recreate every facet and nuance of this car, which is an exact duplicate of the white '74 prototype Nova police car. Harry also provided a lot of documents and commentary to Ed Sanow when he was writing his excellent book, "Chevrolet Police Cars" (Harry gave me his copy of the book which contains a heartfelt thank you from Ed to Harry for all his invaluable help during the writing of the book...Harry was chief engineer for Chevrolet's various police car programs from 1974-2001 and was Ed's biggest source of information and photos for the book). If Harry says my car is "essentially a 4-door Z28", then I believe it is essentially a 4-door Z28.

I realize this is a 4-door, but it is an incredibly interesting and historical 4-door that gets virtually no interest from Chevy muscle car experts because it is a 4-door. I can post more stuff on here, but it doesn't seem like there is very much interest in it. I do know that Phil Borris and Drew Hardin (from Muscle Car Review magazine) were amazed at its untouched status, documents, and history. I realize it is not a Yenko Nova or Camaro, but it's just as cool, and just as interesting (to some). I posted photos on here of its left cylinder head which is a Z28 head, and that it has an 8-inch harmonic balancer...Phil Borris, a celebrated Chevy muscle car expert and author, saw the car and said he thinks it probably has Z28 internal components (which I will photo document when I get the engine out within the next 2-3 weeks). It has incredible suspension for a lowly 4-door and was capable of .86 Gs on a skidpad, and 1.2 Gs in braking (Harry said it had Z28 front brakes and the drum brakes from a Chevelle station wagon on the back). When I posted photos of its F41 rear suspension and the fact that it has SIX LEAF REAR SPRINGS, that generated almost no comments on here (does any other factory Nova or Camaro have such springs, even a COPO 427 Camaro or Nova???). Aside from the fact that this car is a 4-door, its other problem is that there's nothing to compare it to...there are no other 1974 Nova police cars known to exist (and if there were, they would also be lowly 4-doors that would also not generate much interest).

I posted a copy of its build sheet on SNS if you want to look at its codes...no one else has actually looked at it up to now other than the guys at the SCW building at the GM Nats who were shocked to see a 4-door was ordered with F41 suspension and E70-14 lettered tires...see portion of build sheet at the top of this post. I will post the build sheet on here for all to enjoy (and probably ignore).

You had previously mentioned that it was no big deal that it had 14x7 inch steel wheels, but I posted a GM document that showed that when the project was first being put together the engineers involved (including Dave McClellan, the engineer who was put in charge of the Corvette program in 1975...just a year later than this project) weren't yet thinking about anything other than 14x6 wheels from a Chevelle station wagon to improve its handling at the skid pad (Harry said those wheels were less prone to flexing under hard cornering than standard 14x6 wheels). The 17 '74 Nova police cars are still the ONLY 3rd Gen Novas I know of that came with plain 14x7 steel wheels (non-SS wheels)...they are coded "EM" on its build sheet. After providing you with that GM document I received no comment back from you until now, and your current comment seems to suggest yet again that this car is nothing special and that I somehow should prove its Z28 componentry (if I am misreading your intent, then please correct me...I can apologize when needed). It doesn't matter if "thousands of '70s GM cars had 14x7 inch wheels from the factory" (your words), what does matter is that AT THE TIME THIS CAR WAS BUILT, there were no other Novas being built with 14x7 plain steel wheels. It was the research on this Nova that led GM engineers to put them on other cars in later model years.

I can measure every component and write about it on here, but all I will get are more questions about its authenticity, or more disinterest because it is a 4-door and not a Yenko, so what's the point? It is an exact duplicate of a factory prototype (and I thought Chevrolet prototypes were actually something to be revered, especially on this website), and the only one known to exist (and a COPO, which I now know doesn't mean very much because it is a "4-door COPO"). I was told by a guy at the SCW tent at the Carlisle GM Nats this past June that it was possibly the best documented and historical Chevy police car in existence. My car is not only an untouched original "survivor", but has also been verified by the engineer who built it, and is backed up with a build sheet and many GM documents...I don't know what else I need to do (or can do) to prove its provenance. I haven't seen any other cars on here (or anywhere else) than have this car's level of factory documentation and historical significance (the Nova police car is considered to be Chevy's most-significant police car ever built, and one of the 10 greatest police cars of all time...and this is the 2nd one ever built...the LA Zone Office's police car demonstrator).

BTW Wilma, I have read many of your posts and enjoy your involvement with Novas. And Kurt, I greatly appreciate your obsessive research into Camaros...I would welcome any such investigation into my Nova. But please remember...it's just a 4-door!

PS...if you look in the upper left hand corner you will see that the scheduled build date for this car at the Van Nuys. Calif plant was 5-21. Harry said the order form for this car, the gold demonstrator was filled out on Friday May 3rd, 1974 while he and Jim were having dinner at GM exec Rick Mahoney's house in Northridge, CA. The order was sent to GM on Monday May 6, so if this car was actually built on May 21st, then that was only 15 days after the order was placed. Are you aware, Kurt, of any other GM car that has a faster documented build time than this car? That is yet anther example of its importance to the execs at GM.

[big gear head]

I wouldn't be so quick to say that there is no interest in this car. All though I have not posted any comments, I have been following every post that you have put up, and this is an interesting car to me. I have never seen the 6 leaf springs on anything before and it would be interesting to know how they were built. Please keep posting here so that those of us who are interested can keep up.

[9C1Beater]

Big Gear Head, thank you for your interest. I plan to post more photos of the springs which will include their exact dimensions and the number of clips holding them together. I believe that they are one-off custom springs that GM probably put on all 17 of the '74 Nova police cars. The fact that GM went to all the trouble and expense to have them produced indicates GM management's desire to steal the cop car business away from Chrysler (which was the leading seller of law enforcement vehicles at that time). The fact that this car's springs were built at a GM plant and shipped (probably) from Detroit to the Van Nuys plant in less than 15 days (they had to be present on the assembly line right before this car showed up) is yet more evidence of this car's importance. Under hard cornering with this car there is virtually no lean. I owned a '70 Boss 302 in 1975 when I was 18, and this car is the closest thing I have ever driven to the feel of that car.

I am 100% certain that Rick Mahoney did some tricks to its engine right after he got the car. Its engine is coded "CKD" in the stamping pad (and "KD" on the build sheet), which is a standard L48 350 code, yet it has Z28 parts. I believe he had the engine built with the Z28 parts to make it more entertaining for the cops during test drives. He had a buddy at Arrow Chevrolet in Los Angeles who probably performed the work (Arrow is also where Rick liked to have his Zone Office cars delivered). This demonstrator must have made quite a favorable impression, because the LASD ordered 75 4th Gen Nova 9C1 police cars, and another 222 in '76 (I don't have ordering figures for '77 and '78 for the LASD, but Ed Sanow said that it was basically their sole squad car during those years (the Nova 9C1 was superseded by the Malibu 9C1 in '79, mainly due to the Malibu's larger rear seat area).

PS...I will post a photo on here of me at 18 with shoulder-length hair while leaning on the Boss...the car is covered with snow and has 1975 Iowa plates (driving a Boss 302 in the SNOW...blasphemy!!!). It was just another car back then, and all the young punks were cruising around the streets in muscle cars while looking for races and chicks with Aerosmith or ZZ Top cranking on the 8-track tape deck.

BTW Kurt, 6 leaf rear springs are not "normal F41 Nova suspension" components.

[9C1Beater]

I will be attending the Heartland Nova Show in Davenport, Iowa in June and would welcome Ken Schoenthaler's opinion of the car. I hear he has 2 Yenko Novas and is quite knowledgeable on 3rd Gen Novas.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

This is an interesting car, full of unique parts and stories with lots of positive feedback. The only person who seems to continually downgrade this car is you! There is no need for an inferiority complex just because it's a '74, or a Nova, or crew cab.... It's cool, we like it.

I'll post the same response that I did on Steve's Nova site about the rear sway bar:

"Interesting setup, especially the rear spring pockets being deep enough to hold 6 leafs - and it still includes the spring pads on the top & bottom. Also, I noticed that the lower spring plates appear to be the mono spring design, and don't have the sway bar extension - which means that the bar itself is likely a little wider than the '70-'72 version. We pulled a rear sway bar out of a '76'ish 9C1 Nova about 20+ years ago, it was the correct width for a '70-'72. So, this setup is really cool...

I've had NOS rear bar setups, and confirm the green and blue paint treatment...."

[Schonyenko2]

We look forward to seeing you at the Heartland Nova reunion. Will be interesting to get a look at the car.

[Tracker1]

I wouldn't be so quick to say that there is no interest in this car. All though I have not posted any comments, I have been following every post that you have put up, and this is an interesting car to me. I have never seen the 6 leaf springs on anything before and it would be interesting to know how they were built. Please keep posting here so that those of us who are interested can keep up.

I agree, I've been following the thread too. This thing is fascinating.

[9C1Beater]

Yenko Deuce...thanks for the positive input. I'm actually not trying to put my Nova down, just curious why it doesn't attract more interest, and why Kurt is questioning its Z28 heritage (and parts). He is a Camaro and Yenko expert, and yet he doesn't think this car used Z28 parts?!!! When this car was at the Nova Nats this past June, it barely attracted any attention from the Nova bigwigs, but it drove the guys at the Super Car Workshop building crazy...they immediately recognized it for what it was.

I will take some good photos of the springs, get their dimensions, and take closeups of the welds. I didn't even think about the spring brackets welded to the bottoms of the axle, but they are probably deeper than a standard 5-leaf rear due to the extra leaf, so I will take that measurement as well. The leaves are definitely very beefy...there is no give in them whatsoever, which makes this car handle with barely any lean.

The guys at the Tech Center freely borrowed from each other's programs to create cars like the '67 Z28. Vince Piggins didn't go and design entirely new engine parts when he created the first 302...he mated an existing 327 block with a Corvette 283 forged crank, used the biggest valve heads from the Corvette, and controlled the valves with a Duntov 30-30 cam...all from the GM parts bin. Don Yenko figured out a way to use the COPO ordering process to get Novas with LT1s and M22 transmissions, and Fred Gibb used the COPO process to get '69 Camaros built with aluminum ZL1 engines.

This Nova was no different. Harry Hammond and Jim Ingle had only 5 weeks to build the basic Nova police car prototype to meet the LASD's imposed Feb 28, 1974 deadline to have the basic car constructed (Harry and Jim still had 2 months to "dial it in", which they needed!). The man in charge of the Camaro program at the Tech Center was Vince Piggins, and he loaned his newest engineer, Jim Ingle to the police car project (Jim was working in the "F-Body Program" office at that time, and he went on to run the program sometime later). Both Harry and Jim were relatively fresh hires at the Tech Center, and both had mechanical engineering degrees. They already knew that a Nova 4-door with standard front disk brakes, standard F41 suspension, and bias-ply tires on 14x6 inch wheels wasn't going to satisfy the LASD, because Rick Mahoney (along with Motor Trend editor John Christy) had tried to get a '73 Nova 4-door with the aforementioned equipment to pass the LASD's strict, measured standards to no avail (Harry said it wasn't up to par in braking and handling). The '74 prototype project went all-out and GM used every trick it could think of...including the 6-leaf rear springs, a cooling fan from a pickup truck, and many Z28 parts to make the car beat the competition. Harry said the finished car could out-handle and out-brake a Z28. John Christy was the first to say in print that the Nova police car was a "4-door Z28", and Hot Rod magazine did the same when they tested a '76 Nova 9C1, which they titled as "Super Nova!" in one article, and "The 4-door Z28" in another article in 1978.

I welcome any input on here, as I know you guys are far more knowledgeable on Novas and Chevrolets in general than I am. That's why I posted the car on here.

Best regards, Alex

[Kurt S]

I'm not downgrading the car. My point is the evidence shows they basically made a 4-door SS. Discs, bigger wheels, F41, etc. They appear to use items that were available and in the plant. What parts weren't?

Is there a COPO number on the buildsheet?

[9C1Beater]

Kurt, the build sheet says "COPO OPTIONS", and Harry Hammond told me it was built with Z28 parts. I have put a GM document on here which shows that GM engineers were discussing putting Z28 parts on it. The COPO Nova (both 3rd and 4th Gen versions) has been written about in books, magazines, and is well-known as having been produced with Z28 parts. I have shot you down twice with GM documents that are impossible to refute, so I figure you are either a complete doubter of any hard evidence, or you have some form of Alzheimer's. The first attempt at a Nova police car in 1973 was basically a 4-door SS, and it didn't pass the LASD's braking and handling tests, so there goes that idea. What do you think Harry and Jim were doing at the Tech Center on the 2nd car...building yet another 4-door SS? That was when they started with a bare shell and built it from the ground up with Z28, Chevelle, truck, and full-size Chevy parts (and had someone there weld up some really trick 6-leaf rear springs). Have you ever seen another 3rd Gen Nova with a Z28 dual snorkel air cleaner (that is because it is a COPO car...it borrows parts from other GM cars to make a better version of itself). What do you think Harry and Jim were doing at the GM Proving Ground in Milford for 2 months...having a looonnnggg coffee break? This is not only a COPO car, it is also a BRASS HAT car...both verified with GM documents...ordered, built, and delivered in TWO WEEKS...and yet it's really nothing special, just a 4-door SS. Since a COPO 427 Camaro is basically just a Z28 with a 427 and a curved neck radiator added, does that mean it's nothing special?...remember, those were just parts laying around the factory (to use your words).

You might be celebrated as some sort of genius over on CRG, but you come across here as a complete fool. Please go away and bother someone else with your nonsensical and illogical drivel.

PS...this is just a guess, but I don't think SIX LEAF REAR SPRINGS were available in the plant...touché!

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Kurt,

....You might be celebrated as some sort of genius over on CRG, but you come across here as a complete fool. Please go away and bother someone else with your nonsensical and illogical drivel.

PS...this is just a guess, but I don't think SIX LEAF REAR SPRINGS were available in the plant...touché!

See, now this is where your complex appears to kick in - Kurt questioned the Z28 terminology usage, nothing more / nothing less. This is a hard core, technical enthusiast site, we 'trust but verify' - it's not personal, its just technical.

Most of us (Nova guys) have seen our share of Nova Police cars over the decades, and to be honest - we expect to see these items installed at the factory and we aren't really that surprised. Perhaps an item or two is new to us, but overall that's how they built them!

Your car is cool, sorry it didn't set the Nova Nationals on fire last year - but that's the beauty of a sleeper. You're gonna have to deal with that reality and likely reset your expectations.

[9C1Beater]

Marlin, point taken. But when there are reams of data, plus GM documents, plus verbal stories from the guy who designed the car, plus all sorts of tests conducted at that time, plus actual Z28 parts put on Nova police cars that don't exist on other Novas, then you have to logically assume that this Nova police car contains some Z28 parts. I never said that it was a 100% Z28 4-door, and that's not what the data suggests. The data points out that the 4-door Nova's main weaknesses in handling and braking were addressed with mostly Z28 parts, which makes sense because they were the heaviest-duty parts that GM had that would fit the Nova (other than the rear brakes, which were borrowed from the A-body station wagon).

This car is not "just a 4-door Nova SS", and I think Kurt knows that, but to get him to acknowledge that and stop pushing my buttons apparently isn't going to happen. He didn't apologize or admit he was wrong when he said that "thousands of GM cars came with 14x7 inch steel wheels in the '70s", and that the 14x7 inch plain steel wheels on this car were apparently nothing special. I posted a GM document on here from Jan. '73 from Harry Hammond to Rick Mahoney discussing how to get Rick's first attempted Nova police car to handle better by using 14x6 inch steel wheels borrowed from a Chevelle station wagon, and to use rear spring eye bushings from a Z28 to control axle wheel hop. The letter was also sent to 5 other men at the Tech Center including Jim Ingle and Dave McClellan. Was there any acknowledgement of the letter from Kurt?...no, nothing...crickets. The letter proves that UP TO THAT POINT, they had not yet considered putting 14x7 inch wheels on the 4-door Nova to improve its handling, and also shows that they were starting to put Z28 parts on the car. And the 6-leaf rear springs appear to be hand-built by someone at GM...I haven't found any other springs that look like them (they are basically truck springs...they point to an extreme effort by GM to win the 1974 LASD police car tests), and they further point to this car as being essentially a factory prototype.

I am not out to belittle anybody or stir anything up, but I am a retired US Navy veteran and I don't just sit idly by when my car is being unnecessarily challenged. Kurt knows this car is something special, so to continue to ask odd questions about its provenance and parts does no one on here (especially me) any good. It is like he doesn't bother to actually read and carefully examine the documentation I have posted on here, which makes literally no sense as he is apparently so heavily into research (Kurt...research what I have sent you).

Kindest regards to ALL on here, Alex

PS...now I will calm down. Marlin...thanks.

[Kurt S]

Wow.
Asking questions about a special car somehow belittles it?
That's factual questioning and research versus hyperbole.

Realize that claims are made about cars all the time - and they show up in the magazines all the time. There's 69 Yenko development cars and other such nonsense. To properly evaluate cars, the factual evidence is examined - that's part of the research.
You are making claims that are unsubstantiated, like use of 69 COPO wheels and Z28 components when they actually used Nova SS wheels and RPO F41. Show what is different - which means you'll have to know what F41 actually consisted of, etc.
Development is one thing. What they actually ordered on a car is another. They are two different entities. Connect them and you have a better (and more credible) story.

[novadude]

I can post more stuff on here, but it doesn't seem like there is very much interest in it.

I'm very interested. Please keep the posts coming.

[Canuck]

Alex

Thanks for the contributions, There are a lot of people that read this site that dont post. This is an amazing car. Somewhere on SNS there is a photo of a a nova frame that says COPO 9C1 stenciled on it. Nova 9C1 cars were COPO. For Alex prototype it makes sence that the engineers used readily available parts, thats what GM did when they built prototypes. The best available parts were from the Z28 parts bin.

Ales,keep on posting, there are a lot of interested people here. The research you put into this is unequaled.

Paul
1978 COPO Nova 9C1

[Kurt S]

I too am interested in the unique features of this car. It may require some digging to find an F41 car to compare it to.
Nova 9C1 cars were COPO.
Paul,
That's not true. 9C1 is a Special Equipment Option (SEO) code, as opposed to a Regular Production Option (RPO) code. The whole purpose of an option code is to have it available for dealers to order. Option codes (both RPO and SEO) appear in dealer literature. The SEO's would not appear in standard consumer literature. A COPO requires engineering and pricing and is not a standard item - they require time and work and tracking and generally are not destined for promotion and widespread production. The COPO numbers do not appear in dealer literature.

There doesn't appear to be a COPO # on the buildsheet of Alex's car, yet is a COPO because it provided an option override, a means of combining options that were not yet able to be combined. And there may be some unique features on the car - but how would that be communicated to the plant without a COPO number? Soon after, the police package was assigned an SEO and pricing and was publicized.

That's not to say that a 9C1 couldn't be a COPO if something special was ordered that required engineering, but the whole purpose of the package was to not have to do special designs. And emissions requirements nixed installing non-certified engines. So there would need to be paperwork to prove a COPO. Special paint would not fall in that category since it's a F&SO (Fleet and Special Order).

Here's a 9C1 window sticker. Note that they ordered every SEO available and many other options, but there's no COPO number on the WS or the associated pricing.
https://msu.edu/~bellr/9C1%20Window%20Sticker.JPG

[Canuck]

Kurt
A UPS truck built by Chevtolet is also a COPO. The absence of a COPO code does not preclude its special handling.

[9C1Beater]

Hey Paul (aka: "Canuck"), it's always nice to hear from you. I hope you don't mind me letting everyone on here know that you are the owner of a rare COPO 9C1 Nova.

Paul not only has that COPO, he also owns a fantastic '68 Charger RT that is a replica of the one from "Bullitt", and two Olds 442s.

His COPO is a silver '78 that he purchased from a classic car junkyard in Kennewick, WA named "Dan's Garage". I am surprised he has not posted it on here, because it is an incredible car and could add much to the knowledge and commentary on COPO 9C1 Novas on here.

I bet he is surprised to hear that it's nothing more than a "4-door Nova SS".

[Canuck]

Alex
I am a regular contributor on here as it is the best Muscle site on the internet. Wait until you meet some of the people face to face at Mcacn.
I have posted stories about the Nova ,the Charger and the 442 some time back.
You can research prev posts by clicking on an individuals profile and under statistics it will read
" all posts started by......"
There has been no progress on the Nova as The last three years have been consumed with shop renovation[ now done].
I will be retiring on May 31 and plan to get some major car work done over the summer.
Paul

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=151328

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=138712

[9C1Beater]

Paul, I understand that Kurt has a lot of knowledge about 1st Gen Camaros, but he apparently didn't read the info that I posted on here and accused me of "hyperbole", which is another way to say "exaggerating", which is another way of saying "lying". To refute Kurt I will post magazine articles on here that are contemporaneous to the time the COPO 9C1 Novas were produced, as well as excerpts from an excellent book, "Chevrolet Police Cars" that was written by Cpl. Ed Sanow of the Missouri Highway Patrol...his main source of information for the Nova, Malibu, and 1977-89 Impala and Caprice police cars was Harry Hammond, who was the chief engineer the 9C1 and B4C police car programs from 1974-2001. I believe Harry probably knows more about the 9C1 Nova than Kurt S.

My main problem with you Kurt is that you refused to acknowledge the GM document that I posted on here from Jan. 1973 that was sent by Harry Hammond to Rick Mahoney at Chevy's LA Zone Office discussing how to get the 1st Nova police car to handle better for the LASD tests that were scheduled for May 1973. In that letter Harry said that Jim Ingle (who started at the GM Tech Center in Warren, MI as an assistant to Vince Piggins, the father of the Z28) recommended that Rick have 14x6 inch wheels from a Chevelle station wagon installed on the car with E70-14 bias-ply tires to help the car handle better. Jim also suggested installing eye bushings on the rear springs from a Z28 to control the cars tendency to axle-hop during hard accelerating and braking. That letter was also sent to 4 other engineers besides Jim Ingle, and one of them was Dave McClellan who went on to run the Corvette program from 1975 until his retirement in 1999. My posting of that letter was in answer to your statement that 14x7 inch wheels on my car were not special, and had been installed "on thousands of GM cars during the '70s". That letter proved that until Jan. 1973, GM had not yet installed 14x7 inch wheels on Nova 4-doors (they were available on Nova SSs as an option), and Harry told me that they were installed on the '74 Nova police car prototype to cure its tendency to tip during hard steering transitions at the GM Proving Ground's Black Lake skid pad in Milford, MI. Harry and Jim had been given a list of the tests which were to be performed by the LASD (tests which were primarily developed with the input of John Christy, a Motor Trend magazine editor and reserve deputy with the LASD). One of those tests was 3 back-to-back high speed lane changes, and the testing criteria involved the use of a Hewlett-Packard accelerometer to measure the G-forces. Harry and Jim had the same test equipment and spent approximately 2 months at Black Lake dialing in the Nova prototype, which Harry said was somewhat "top-heavy" due to its higher center of gravity than the Camaro, thus causing it to be prone to tipping without the 14x7 inch wheels.

If you had simply acknowledged the letter and said, "Hey Alex, I stand corrected", or "Thanks for the information" I wouldn't have gotten angry with you. I am not on here to make enemies, but rather to spread the word on COPO 9C1 Novas and learn as much as I can about the interesting things on my car from guys with far more Chevy expertise than I have.

But I didn't get anything from you like that. One of the greatest personality traits that I think a man can possess is the ability to say "I was wrong" and "thank you". You may have such a big ego that you can't do that.

With your great knowledge of 1st Gen Camaros, I am surprised that you didn't know the the COPO 9C1 Nova was known as "the 4-door Z28". Harry told me that many Z28 parts were used on the '74 prototype and the ensuing '75-78 9C1s because they were the best parts that were available at GM. I don't think GM would have authorized Harry and Jim to design a bunch of custom parts for the prototype because that body style was only 5 or 6 months from termination when GM management gave them the go-ahead to build the prototype. So it only makes sense that the best springs, shocks, steering box, and suspension bushings would come out of the Z28 parts bin. Plus, Harry also told John Christy, Dave Wallace from Hot Rod magazine, Rick Mahoney, his bosses, and the LA Sheriffs Dept. officials the same thing during the 1974-78 time frame. John Christy and Dave Wallace then went on to write magazine articles (a couple are posted on here) to let everyone in the United States know that the COPO 9C1 Nova was "the 4-door Z28". So you telling me that it is nothing more than "a 4-door Nova SS" is not only flat-out wrong, but also denigrates and insults not only my ultra-rare 1974 COPO BRASS HAT Nova police car demonstrator, but also denigrates ALL 1975-78 COPO 9C1 Nova police cars (and their owners).

I believe you owe me an apology, because you could have defused this escalating war-of-words. I am a new guy on here and you appeared to do all you could to frustrate me rather than welcome me. Are you deliberately trying to drive new people away from this excellent website?...because that is how it appears to me. The mission statement of Yenko.net is "Dedicated to the Promotion and Preservation of American Muscle Cars, Dealer built Supercars, and COPO Cars" (my car is a COPO car). I don't believe you actually read and absorbed the information I had posted on here, but rather decided to shoot down the new guy with the ugly Nova. I don't believe you were attempting to gather information because you would have thanked me for posting the GM document (from the Tech Center) due to it providing you with the answer to your 2 statements about my car...1. that its 14x7 inch wheels were nothing special, and 2. that my Nova did not contain Z28 parts (your 3rd statement against the car was that it wasn't a "4-door Z28", but rather a "4-door Nova SS"). I suggest that you stick to commenting on 1st Gen Camaros and never again discuss COPO Nova 9C1 police cars on here.

Now to Paul and all the other members, I would like to officially introduce myself and explain how I came to know so much about 9C1 Novas. I bought a 1977 9C1 Nova in 2015 for $400 after discovering it on Craigslist Phoenix. At that time there was very little information about these cars on the Internet, and no one knew how many were left of the approximately 15,000 that GM built (17 in 1974 and the rest from '75-78). I started a Nova 9C1 Registry that uncovered 22 cars. The only way for a car to get accepted into the Registry was for it to have 9C1-only equipment...a 120 mph speedometer, and the beefy 10-bolt rear with full-size Chevy brakes (no other GM cars had those items). Since most 9C1 Novas led brutally hard lives in law enforcement, very few survived with paperwork verifying their 9C1 identities. My research led me to Harry Hammond, and he politely answered my large number of questions about "his" cars (and also gave me a cache of GM documents and photos from the 9C1 Nova project, as well as 6 books which had been given to him by various authors for his help with their books). I consider myself to be an expert on COPO 9C1 Novas.

Are they actually COPOs? I'm surprised that Kurt hasn't figured that out. To help him out I have already posted the build sheet from my '74 which says "COPO OPTIONS", and shows that it was built with "EM" coded wheels (they were COPO items...not available on the 4-door Nova then, even with the F41 suspension), a "DY" coded dual snorkel air cleaner from a Z28...not available on other '74 Novas...a COPO item (mine was actually built with a "DW" coded air cleaner because the engine has a points distributor instead of an HEI...I do not know of a single other '74 Nova that has a Z28 dual snorkel air cleaner from the factory), and a Z28 steering box. I don't know if it has other Z28 items, because I am unfamiliar with the codes (which is a large reason why I joined here), but I am assuming it does because Harry said so (he used to have lists of all of the running changes that were made for the 3rd and 4th Gen COPO Novas, but he hasn't been able to locate them). I am also posting the build sheet (photo #1) from my '77 Nova which says "9C1 POLICE OPTION" near the lower left...it's obscured by tar, but readable under a high intensity light...the build sheet also lists the 9C1-only 120 mph speedometer and the F70-14 fabric-belted radials. All 9C1s were ordered under the COPO ordering process, but non-police officials could buy them through savvy salesmen. Attached is a photo (#2) of a 1977 Nova subframe that is stenciled "COPO 9C1". Further, Dave Wallace's Hot Rod magazine article, which I have posted, specifically mentions that the COPO ordering process is required in order for civilians to order a 9C1-equipped Nova.

Also attached are photos (3 and 4) of the cover and inner cover of the copy of the book "Chevrolet Police Cars" which Ed Sanow gave to Harry (and then Harry gave to me in June 2018 when he saw my car and autographed the inside of its trunk lid...I am deeply honored). On p.83, Ed writes "The chassis was a mixture of of standard and optional Nova SS and Camaro Z28 parts. The rear brakes were from the full-size Bel Air, and the power steering was from the Z28 which gave it more road feel and response. The COPO 9C1 Nova, jointly developed by Chevrolet, the Los Angeles Sheriffs Department and Motor Trend magazine, is the most important police car Chevrolet ever made". Also posted (5) is a page from the Aug. 1974 issue of Motor Trend that discuss the 1974 LASD police car tests which were held from Apr. 29-May 1 at the LA Co. Fairgrounds in Pomona. The '74 Nova police car prototype went 0-60 in 10.0 seconds, pulled .90 Gs on a 200' skidpad, and generated 1.0 Gs of braking force during repeated panic stops. The LASD immediately ordered 11 of them for further evaluation, and Rick Mahoney ordered a gold car to use as a police car demonstrator (my car). The 1974 AMC Matador equipped with a 401 4-barrel went 0-60 in 8.5 seconds, and the Dodge Coronet with a 400 4-barrel went 0-60 in 9.5 seconds...neither of those cars got better than 13 mpg. John Christy wrote in Motor Trend that the Nova police car prototype "is more like a 4-door Z28 or a Corvette in disguise. Chevrolet's compact version of a police car is a solid rebuttal to the notion that Detroit can't build a small police car. The chassis is a mixture of Nova and Z28 Camaro bits. So impressive is it that 11 have been ordered by the LASD for further evaluation." The Nova achieved an extremely impressive 16.15 mpg in the 72 mile urban test-loop that was developed by John Christy.

Immediately following the successful introduction of the '74 Nova police car, Harry and Jim set to work on developing the 4th Gen Nova into a police car. By May of '74, they had access to a pre-production '75 Nova 4-door sedan and they began to go through a shorter process to prepare the 9C1 package that it would require. The 1975 LASD police car test results for the new Nova were: 0-60 mph in 9.0 seconds, skid pad .82Gs, braking 1.1 Gs, and 15.6 mpg...the 4th Gen was a better police car than the '74 version. The Plymouth Fury (the new name for the Satellite...same car) with a 400 4-barrel had these results: 0-60 in 8.5 seconds, skid pad .71 Gs, braking .92 Gs, and 11.8 mpg. The AMC Matador equipped with a 401 4-barrel had these numbers: 0-60 in 8.5 seconds, skid pad .75 Gs, braking .98 Gs, and 13.4 mpg. Ed Sanow wrote that "The 1975 police Nova was a police car package in the truest sense. The built-up Nova was loaded with fluid coolers, fitted with the heaviest-duty Nova SS and Z28 suspension components, and the brakes from the full-size Bel Air. The LASD recommended that one third of its enormous fleet of police cars be made up of the Nova, which was a stunning victory for Chevrolet." The last photo is the 1975 Nova police car prototype that Harry and Jim built. It is shown at the GM Proving Ground during a promotional photo shoot. Mote its Michigan manufacturer license plate (denoted by the "M"). This photo is in Ed Sanow's book, and Harry gave me the original photo which he loaned to Ed for use in the book.

I am also attaching an article from the March '78 issue of Hot Rod magazine. The article was written by Dave Wallace, a well-known writer for Hot Rod, Motor Trend, and Car Craft magazines during the '70s and '80s. The article is titled "Secret Weapon 9C1", and the sub-heading says, "They don't call it the 4-door Z28 for nothing".

I believe at this point that I have refuted all of Kurt's negative remarks: 1. Its 14x7 inch wheels are nothing special (they are), 2. That it doesn't have Z28 parts (it does), and 3. That it is nothing more than a "4-door Nova SS" (it's actually much closer to a 4-door Z28). Kurt can post his apology (or say "I stand corrected" if he can't do the apology), and all is forgiven. Otherwise, I do not want to ever hear from him on this forum because I will not value his questions or answer them.

Further, I believe that not only should the existing guys on here treat each other with respect and not blow up each other's cars, but that the new guys should be treated equally (maybe even a little nicer than the rest till the novelty of their newness wears off :). I think the moderators on here should discuss this with Kurt and let him know he was in the wrong and to tone his ego down a notch or two and to actually research the cars he's not an expert on (or don't comment on them altogether).

Kindest regards to all on here (including Kurt), Alex

[9C1Beater]

Here are some photos I took today of my car's 6-leaf rear springs. I have not been able to find a single other GM car that came with 6-leaf rear springs, but many trucks did. My car rides more like a truck than a car.

The springs have two clips...one fore and one aft, and both are spaced approx. 13 inches from the center of their perches. The leaves are 2 1/2 inches wide, and the mounts welded to the axles are 2 3/4 inches deep (measured from the top of the shock mounting plate to the bottom of the axle).

I do not know how these compare to a 3rd Gen Nova with 5-leaf springs as I do not have the corresponding measurements. I believe these springs were fabricated at the GM Tech Center in Warren and are possibly the only set like them still in existence.

The last photo shows the 1974 Nova police car prototype during high-speed lane changing tests at the GM Proving Ground in Milford, MI in March or April '74. That car had the same springs as mine...note its flat attitude and Michigan manufacturer plate (denoted by the "M").

[RALLY]

The rear shocks look like the AC Delco Big D shocks, these are heavy duty. Am i correct, are they the Big D shocks?

[9C1Beater]

Yes Rally, they are Delco Big D shocks. I cleaned them up with Simple Green and a toothbrush and they are still like new. I doubt they are the originals, owing due the car's 120k miles and the fact that the LASD probably ran the cr@p out of it for 8 1/2 years. Woody Smith, the film editor who bought the Nova may have replaced them during the 3 years he drove it...all of the work he had done was performed at 4 different Chevy dealers in the LA area. I could not find any paperwork that he changed them.

I'm headed today to the storage space where I keep the Nova and will take pictures of the rear brakes and shocks and hopefully post them on here tonight. Good to hear from you.

[RALLY]

Yes Rally, they are Delco Big D shocks. I cleaned them up with Simple Green and a toothbrush and they are still like new. I doubt they are the originals, owing due the car's 120k miles and the fact that the LASD probably ran the cr@p out of it for 8 1/2 years. Woody Smith, the film editor who bought the Nova may have replaced them during the 3 years he drove it...all of the work he had done was performed at 4 different Chevy dealers in the LA area. I could not find any paperwork that he changed them.

I'm headed today to the storage space where I keep the Nova and will take pictures of the rear brakes and shocks and hopefully post them on here tonight. Good to hear from you.

Thanks for the info. I installed these Delco Big D rear shocks on my 72 Nova SS that came from the factory ordered with the F41 suspension. My F41 originals were long gone when i bought the car and rear sway bar from a loal guy. So i purchased these Big D shocks which are heavy duty like the F41 suspension shocks and got the rear sway bar setup and turned it back to the F41 rear suspension original setup. Looking forward to the pictures you will be posting. I worked with guy back in the late 80s who purchased a used 9-C-1 Nova police car used by the locals police dept. They bought a slew of those cars back in the day. i am thinking it was a 77-78 year Nova. Took me for a ride and that car had plenty of get up an handling for sure. To bad he got rid of the car.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Alex, you are wearing us out on this one buddy..... settle up with Kurt off line, its taking away from the story of your car.

[big gear head]

I agree, whatever is going on here is taking away from the story of the car.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

To be honest, you have a cool car - at the end of the day it is a 4 door Nova Police Car.

It's kinda like this kid in our elementary school who actually had 6 toes on each foot, it was cool to see - but we didn't look twice!! Hang twelve, and enjoy your car!

:grin:

[Jonesy]

Relax. You are taking this way too personally. I dont think anything was asked or said in a manner that ripped on your car. I remember in my town all the squads were novas of this vintage. Roughly 1974-77. I just wonder what happened to all of them. I would have never thought they were this beefed up.:3gears:

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Relax. You are taking this way too personally. I dont think anything was asked or said in a manner that ripped on your car. I remember in my town all the squads were novas of this vintage. Roughly 1974-77. I just wonder what happened to all of them. I would have never thought they were this beefed up.:3gears:

:grin: They ended up in junk yards and us Deuce guys scavenged the rear sway bars for our resto's!!

[Canuck]

My Home town of St .Johns Newfoundland was on a financial squeeze in the early 70's and decided to replace the police cars one by one rather than a fleet purchase. The last "poloce spec" units were 1970 Fords and by 1973 they were worn or rusted out. The city started purchasing whatever the Chev dealer had in stock in 4 door Chevs. Biscaye, Bel Air and probably the odd Impala. They were put on the road as they were with a light and police radio. Cars were typically 350 TH350 and no HD suspension, full wheel covers,whitewalls some with vinyl tops, Paint varied from Beige to Green.Interiors were whatever was on a Bel Air or Biscayne. The cars barely lasted a year, spindles would break, springs, suspension bushings failed. 50,000 miles and they were done. The city relized by going cheap cost them twice as much. By 1977 they were rollng on Police Spec Crown Victorias. Lesson Learned.
When the Nova was conceived as a police car it benefitted by being the smallers 4 door with a host of bigger car parts that just bolted on. keep in mind the fastest regular production cars of the era were a Mercedes 450SEL 6.9 4 door and the Dodge Monaco police cruiser with a 440.

[9C1Beater]

Thanks guys...I appreciate all of your comments. I'm not on here to grind an axe or make enemies. I just want to be treated honestly and fairly, and if I present info on here that can be backed up (which I have), then I want it to be acknowledged by the guy who asked it (that is not too much to ask).

I have posted all of this info on Steves Nova Site (and quite a bit more), but felt it might receive more interest on here, and I would like to post more of the unusual things on the car here (like its full-size rear brakes). I still don't know exactly what is on this car as far as the front suspension, which may be standard Nova SS stuff (or Z28 stuff...at this point unknown). Harry Hammond can't recall exactly what they did to the car...only bits and pieces (that was 44 years ago).

I think I have located Jim Ingle in the Detroit metro area and plan to contact him soon. He was the suspension guy and made most of those changes to the prototype. I would especially like to ask him about the unusual rear springs and rear brakes, and get his memories of the time at the GM Proving Ground, what it was like to work with Vince Piggins at the Tech Center, and his memories of the trip to LA in the prototype.

I don't plan on changing anything on the car, other than to rebuild the tired, smoking engine and replace the squeaking smog pump. I think it is far too historic to alter a single thing.

Martin, was your Yenko Nova at Carlise in June? There was only one there and I think it was the same color as yours. And Paul, I hope you post a lot of stuff on your 9C1 Nova on the 9C1 Registry on SNS when it's done. I posted the photos that Harry Hammond gave me on the Registry a couple of days ago.

[RALLY]

Still waiting for your pictures you said you were going to take of the rear brakes and shocks. If you want to keep people interested, post them.

[9C1Beater]

Hey Rally...it has been colder than a witch's you-know-what here for the past 3 days...warmer on Fri and Sat, so I will take the pics then.

[RALLY]

Hey Rally...it has been colder than a witch's you-know-what here for the past 3 days...warmer on Fri and Sat, so I will take the pics then.

Understand same in Mich. Ok take them when you can, still interested in seeing the pictures.

[9C1Beater]

Rally, headed to my storage space tomorrow to snap pics for you...we're supposed to hit 39 deg then...like summer compared to -13 deg with -35 windchill!

[RALLY]

Sounds good, i be waiting for your pics.

[RALLY]

Sat still no pictures.

[9C1Beater]

Rally, here are photos of the driver's side shock. The part number is 2200260...I couldn't find a date code. The shocks are in very good condition...I cleaned them with Simple Green and they look nearly new. In the 3rd photo you can get a better look at the 6 spring leaves. At the very forward top of both springs are faded yellow stickers that I couldn't get photos of due to their close proximity to the floor. They say "WARREN" and have what appears to be a picture of a leaf spring below. Maybe someone on here can comment on those stickers, which I am guessing show they were built by the spring shop at the GM Tech Center in Warren, MI. The stickers appear to be made of vinyl, and right below them are paper labels with very dirty and faded numbers. I will have to clean them to be able to read what they say.

The last photo is the lug nuts, which are stamped "RBW"...I believe they are probably original to the car. I pulled another hubcap and they were also RBWs. It also appears that the muffler and exhaust pipes are GM originals. The car has 120k original miles and was in LA until 2017...a nice climate for classic cars.

[novadude]

You mentioned "full size rear brakes"? Those pictures look like normal Nova 9.5" rear drum brakes. What makes them unique?

[RALLY]

Rally, here are photos of the driver's side shock. The part number is 2200260...I couldn't find a date code. The shocks are in very good condition...I cleaned them with Simple Green and they look nearly new. In the 3rd photo you can get a better look at the 6 spring leaves. At the very forward top of both springs are faded yellow stickers that I couldn't get photos of due to their close proximity to the floor. They say "WARREN" and have what appears to be a picture of a leaf spring below. Maybe someone on here can comment on those stickers, which I am guessing show they were built by the spring shop at the GM Tech Center in Warren, MI. The stickers appear to be made of vinyl, and right below them are paper labels with very dirty and faded numbers. I will have to clean them to be able to read what they say.

The last photo is the lug nuts, which are stamped "RBW"...I believe they are probably original to the car. I pulled another hubcap and they were also RBWs. It also appears that the muffler and exhaust pipes are GM originals. The car has 120k original miles and was in LA until 2017...a nice climate for classic cars.
Good pics, heavy duty Delco Big D Shocks, good for the F41 suspension. And heavy duty springs.

[9C1Beater]

You mentioned "full size rear brakes"? Those pictures look like normal Nova 9.5" rear drum brakes. What makes them unique?

Novadude, several magazine articles from that time mentioned "full-size Chevy rear brakes". I posted a letter from GM in my other thread on here about the '74 9C1 that discusses using Chevelle rear brake drums, which I believe were heavier than the stock Nova's to dissipate more heat, and I believe the path to these brake drums led Harry Hammond and Jim Ingle to try several different setups before settling on these drums. The drums on the car now are the originals (there is a factory identification sticker still present on the right drum). I am posting a picture of a standard '74 Nova finned rear drum to compare with the heavier finned drum that came on the 9C1 (GM #1249146). I believe it also used heavier-duty brake linings than standard Nova parts. I'm not sure where the 3rd Gen 9C1 Nova borrowed its brake drums from, but it may have been from the full-size Chevy from that time period. Harry told John Christy from Motor Trend magazine that that's where they came from, as well as Ed Sanow, who wrote the excellent book "Chevrolet Police Cars" (see posting above with excerpts from the aforementioned publications). I believe it's possible at the time the prototype was built that these rear brake drums had not yet been used on any other Novas.

Another interesting thing about the '74 9C1 Nova is that it used metal screw-on valve stems like a truck. The original Goodyear Polyglas E70-14 spare is still with the car and it still has its original valve stem. Harry Hammond and Jim Ingle went all-out to build the Nova police car as heavy-duty as possible. I will post a photo of the spare in my other thread on the car.

[novadude]

The Drum in the left picture looks like an aftermarket replacement. The drum in the right picture looks like the standard Chevelle / Camaro / Nova piece (to my non-expert eyes, anyway).

[9C1Beater]

Probably the only way I can determine what I actually have is to buy a 1974 GM parts book and see what actually came stock (or was available) on a 1974 Nova, and see what these drums were available on AT THAT TIME. In the ensuing 45 years since this car was built, I'm sure these drums have been retrofitted to many 3rd Gen Nova and Camaros, but I am pretty sure that back in 1974, these drums were something special on this car. The fact that Harry Hammond, the engineer who built this Nova said that these were special parts on this special car indicates that they were probably special parts on this special car.

This drum is what SS396.com says is the 68-74 Nova rear drum.

https://www.ss396.com/nova/FBD-95R.html

[Furback]

Just noticed this post. I have a 1977 Concours with the F41 option. 14X7 wheels, 6 leaf rear springs and rear sway bar. All original 60 original miles. 1 owner before me.