Baldwin Motion - Mecum Harrisburg

[AutoInsane]

BM 1969 Corvette Phase III $105k Sold

BM 1973 Camaro Phase III $82,500 Sold

Wow... what happened here’s? Two documented cars from the prominent Todd Werner collection sell for 1/2 of fair market value???

Pries do not include 10% premium

[COPO]

BM 1969 Corvette Phase III $105k Sold

BM 1973 Camaro Phase III $82,500 Sold

Wow

Auction site lists the BM Corvette sold for $115,500 and the BM 1973 Camaro automatic sold for $90,750.

1969 Daytona Yellow Yenko Camaro 4 speed restored in 1996 sold for $258,500

1969 RS COPO Camaro Hugger Orange w/automatic export car with Canadian docs sold for $165,000

1969 COPO Camaro 4 speed Green on Green 4 speed with 2 year old resto sold for $130K.

[tjs44]

The site adds the fees on top of the hammer price.Tom

[AutoInsane]

1973 CHEVROLET CAMARO BALDWIN MOTION PHASE III

https://www.mecum.com/lots/PA0819-379983/1973-chevrolet-camaro-baldwin-motion-phase-iii/

HIGHLIGHTS
Documented Phase III Motion Camaro
Original owner was Joel Rosen's mechanic who built the car at Motion
Believed to be the last Baldwin Motion Camaro built
Signed by Joel Rosen
454 CI V-8 engine
Automatic transmission
Gold exterior
White stripes
Black interior
Motion installed roll bar
Bucket seats
Dual side view mirrors
AM radio
Mickey Thompson S/S Indy Profile tires
Has been featured in major magazines

[AutoInsane]

1969 CHEVROLET CORVETTE BALDWIN MOTION PHASE III GT

https://www.mecum.com/lots/PA0819-379982/1969-chevrolet-corvette-baldwin-motion-phase-iii-gt/

HIGHLIGHTS
1969 Baldwin Motion Phase III GT corvette
Believed to be 46,165 actual miles
Matching numbers 427/435 HP engine
1 of 10 Phase III Corvettes built
February of 2005 Corvette Fever magazine cover car
Factory side exhaust
M-21 4-speed transmission
Gold/Black exterior
Black interior
Tilt and telescopic steering column
AM/FM radio
14 Motion modifications
Only Phase III Baldwin Motion with Shelby side scoops
Featured in Marty Schorr's GT chapter of his book on the history of Baldwin Motion
Original 1970 Supercar Magazine cover car
Original 1970 Cars magazine with car advertisement for Motion products

[rsinor]

BM 1969 Corvette Phase III $105k Sold

BM 1973 Camaro Phase III $82,500 Sold

Wow... what happened here’s? Two documented cars from the prominent Todd Werner collection sell for 1/2 of fair market value???

Pries do not include 10% premium

This response will sound like a rant it isn't its just an opinion.

I think the reality of the current market for collector cars is well reflected in the two instances you mention.

I do not mean for my comments to reflect on these two cars their condition, their authenticity, etc., my comments are about the collector car market in general reflected I think by these sells.

In the collector car world when there exists other avenues to, grow or advance your portfolio that are returning better results than a tangible asset, many look to that opportunity. Many consider pruning there tangible assets if you will and attempting to recover their personal short fall from the investment in that tangible asset with the above mentioned opportunity.

When this starts happening the great cars stabilize, indeed may not grow in value at all, everything else falls and retracts. You have to define great cars here as the best of the best in each category, that may mean in reality there are only 150 cars nationwide possibly growing in value. The 32,500 cars being offered per year via online auctions typically include very few of these prime cars. You end up with a situation where the true collectors are looking to prune their collections or for only the best of the best, in that mode, these two cars gain no traction, seldom do any cars gain any traction.

The result, great cars are still great, but in truth they are few and far between, the others simply can’t cut the muster and the result is the overall market appears to be soft.

I’m not sure the strength of the collector car market will return until tangible assets are considered growth assets. Disposable income grows the collector car market for sure, but even disposable income in a general growth market may not look to tangible assets and in particular when the presence of tangible assets are impacted by the number of on line streamed auctions currently available offering 32,500 cars per year for sale.

Bottom line, I think the current economy and collector car auction environment are both working against cars like these two. The other side of this and again this is not directed at these two cars for sure, the online collector car auction model presents cars that are described with wording that is not accurate or identifiable as accurate and for everyone of those cars that sells to a potential new member in the collector car world which ends up with that individual burned, the collector car world has lost another potential new participant, most will not stick around and participate once a mistake like this is made.

[L72copocamaro]

Hard to say what is going on nowadays. I could understand that with the more common Yenko and Copo (not that they are common, but there are more of them), but those two are as rare as it gets.

[purple panther]

The guy sold it so I guess he was satisfied. He didn't have to sell it. Auctions are you never know. That's what reserves are for

[Charley Lillard]

Hard to say what is going on nowadays. I could understand that with the more common Yenko and Copo (not that they are common, but there are more of them), but those two are as rare as it gets.
But the COPO and Yenko left the factory as COPO's. The Motion cars were converted as were many other dealer converted cars. I think people now put a premium on ones done by the factory.

[the427king]

Didnt the 67 yenko camaros leave the factory as 4k cars?

[William]

Advance your portfolio…tangible asset…short fall from the investment…grow in value…growth assets.

Not picking on you Roy, but buyers who think like this pushed enthusiasts out of the market a long time ago. Maybe they are getting their comeuppance. I remember when enthusiasts bought cars they wanted and could afford them.

Craig Jackson writes an editorial "View From The Block" that appears on line and in each event catalog. He has clearly stated their position on the future of the collector car hobby.

"The trends we saw so clearly in Scottsdale continued to fire up bidders in Florida, with nine of the top 10 sales falling into the hot categories of Resto-Mods, contemporary supercars, ’80s and ’90s vehicles, and classic trucks and SUVs."

[bergy]

I agree with William - I've never viewed my cars as "investments". They are my hobby & I get a lot of enjoyment out of restoring, driving, and displaying them. I refuse to build more storage, so some have to go when I find new ones to restore. Hopefully, they are worth more when I sell them than I have invested in them - but it doesn't always work out that way (especially when I factor in my "free" labor). For me, they are a way to "park" money that is invested in enjoyment and quality of life.

[Late BrakeU2]

I think the reality is boomers are the one's who drove this market for years,they are declining in numbers through death or immobility. Lot's of large collections liquidating last decade or so, pedigree cars will always command a premium but can't see a resurgence any time soon as younger people just don't identify with these. They are already a half century old, and there are some amazing contemporary cars out there now. Agree with CL the BM cars never held the cache' of line built supercars, but the trend is not our freind to coin a stock trading term.JMHO

[rsinor]

No argument from me, just what I feel and see. The disposable income is not buying collector cars. The dot com money is in the rest-o-mods and they are nothing more than current day hot rods of yesteryear.

None of us got in the Hobby for the money, your right. But don’t ever doubt the prices were not driven by the money and in some cases greed.

My initial response was to a comment that the Baldwin motion cars seemed soft.

I think all collector cars are soft except for the very top shelf and even those don’t seem to have buyers.

So maybe the owners are getting theirs as you wish.

[Astock]

Younger guys in the hobby will have their pick of cars soon enough.
Supply and demand will be out of balance with every year passing. New cars knocking on 1,000 horse, doesn't help.
I wonder if 4 speed cars will be harder to sell than autos in 15-20 years?

[Tenney]

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/06/jay-leno-on-tesla-electric-cars-are-the-future.html

[tjs44]

Anyone on here buy my old 69T/A with the RA V engine in it?Tom

[Lee Stewart]

Road to 2030: Buyers are moving into driver’s seat at collector car auctions

We have gone through a period of time where the auction companies, which for lack of a better term have largely been car dealers who have gotten into auctions, have been telling everyone else what cars are worth. I think there’s going to be a significant shift, a shift toward people and authenticity.

I think we’re already seeing that shift, a shift to where people — collectors and buyers — will be put back into the driver’s seat and the auctioneers are going to take what I believe is an appropriate role, that of more of a guide rather than telling people what to do, which happens through such things as pre-auction estimated values.

At Worldwide Auctioneers, we have eliminated printed auction estimates. It’s my opinion that the origin of estimates is not what people think it is. Such estimates cause problems, unrealistic expectations. Bidders and buyers should get to decide what something is worth in an auction format.

That’s going to be one of the biggest shifts, power going to the collector and the buyer, and that’s what I think auctions should be. We should be helping and guiding the collector buyers.

We also need to remember this is a hobby business. Regardless of how many millions or billions of dollars are transacted in our industry, it’s not like a normal business. This is a hobby. The people stroking the checks — the bidders and the buyers — are going to be increasingly in the driver’s seat.

No. 1, we’re talking about age. But it’s never really been any different. I’m a life member of the Auburn Cord Duesenberg Club and there was an article in the monthly newsletter about how the collectors are getting older and asking who is going to take care of these cars? That article was written in the late 1960s!

https://journal.classiccars.com/2019/08/08/road-to-2030-buyers-moving-into-drivers-seat-at-collector-car-auctions/

[JoeC]

The collector car equity funds may change things

I don't think they got into American cars yet as the asset lists show mostly foreign cars

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-06-29/can-t-afford-a-vintage-ferrari-how-about-buying-a-share-for-80

[JoeC]

BM 1973 Camaro Phase III $82,500 Sold

Wow... what happened here’s? Two documented cars from the prominent Todd Werner collection sell for 1/2 of fair market value???

Pries do not include 10% premium

That selling price is pretty high for what it is, in my opinion


" the Camaro was not Baldwin-Motion and was built by a mechanic who worked at Motion for himself, copying Baldwin-Motion mods. It's not a car that was sold by Motion or Baldwin Chevrolet." Martyn Schorr

[EZ Nova]

Funny this thread came up. About a year ago, give or take, I had this short couple PM's back and forth with Charlie on the '69 BM ZLX car. Sorta came to the to the conclusion the BM cars just hold the value for many the reason's mentioned already.

Seems like Charlie also stated, collectors are going more FACTORY cars for the $$$. Like Yenko's, COPO's etc. These converted cars just don't seem to be the one most collectors want and there soft pricing is being reflected in that.

I do think the market as a whole is in for a lot of softening in the coming years. RESTO-MODS ia where it's at and IS a growing market. The 95+ point resto's I think are actually going to be more undesirable as time goes on. SORRY not my thought's but that what I'm hearing from the market. People want to enjoy these cars. Drive them and even race/run hard without fear of hurting there value.

I can see more resto-clones being made and possibly leave the full resto's in the garage, but the exact clone or even improved clone as a driving car. Year temps are getting hotter, WE are getting older. So things like auto with OD and AC are getting more desirable.

Younger guys want the cars THEY seen, C6 vette's imports and maybe a Grand National. Those were mostly the cars they remember. Much better handling and creature comforts then the 60's stuff.

Sorry rant over.

[the427king]

Just because a car is in a high dollar collection doesnt mean its the pinnacle of that car. The perception is every car in a collection is as good as the best one or two .

[NorCam]

A friend of mine knew I was looking for another car and called me a couple weeks ago as he had stumbled onto a 69 BM car that's been sitting close to me for many years. The owner was vetting potential buyers for a sale and my friend asked if I wanted to make an offer against two other guys who were trying to buy it. It was then said the number was floating around 100K Cdn at the time where he was looking for slightly more. I said it appeared like the guy was fishing and I wasn't going to play into that game.

I also told him I didn't put as much value on the Motion built cars even if backed up with paper and validated by Joel. I then offered that if I was going to pay up on a car, it would have to be a Copo or a Yenko that was in the registry, and had some provenance with known history. With that said, I'd agree with Charlie that the stronger market is going to remain with factory built cars that are far more legitimate. Even with that, I'm sure there has been a bit of a softening with many of these cars and would expect more of that in the periods to come.

Markets change...and that my friends is inevitable.

[markinnaples]

I'm 52, so not sure where I fit into the market right now, but if I had $100K extra specifically to spend on an old car a documented BM would be at the top of the list, higher than a correspondingly documented COPO or Yenko. That's just me as I relate most to the Day 2 hot rods that I grew up with in the 70's and the BM were just *it* back then. Time changes everything, that's just inevitable as stated. Remember when everyone was worried that brass era cars would be tossed aside because all of the older guys who collected them were dying? They're still here, and still collectible. And the hot rod era of the 80s/90's seemed to be dying as well, but I watch those prices and quality cars still get the money. Now, if the whole electric car thing continues to grow, that will change EVERYTHING, eventually, but most of us will be gone or close to it and none of this will matter any longer.

[carnut4life]

I'm 47 and with Mark, if I had a 100k to play with I'd definitely want a Baldwin Motion car over a COPO Camaro or Chevelle. I'd never heard of Baldwin Motion when I was a kid but when I saw Roberto Schneider's rally green 69 Motion Camaro that was on the cover of the August 85 issue of MCR I nearly swallowed my tongue and was instantly in love! If I could have one car on earth it would be that rally green Camaro, I'm sure it will always be the most valuable Motion car on the planet since its such a time capsule. The sale of the two cars in Harrisburg makes me think I might actually be able to afford one in the next 20 years!

[Lee Stewart]

I'm 68 and have owned a number of muscle cars throughout my life - all drivers. The thought of owning a car and never driving it doesn't make sense to me. If I had $100 grand I would buy a brand new C8 Corvette and use the other $40 grand to buy a 1964/1965 El Camino restomod and give it to my son. He has always wanted one.

I love to look at "trailer queens" and can appreciate what it took to make them look that way. But I really don't think I would want to own one. The temptation to drive it would be too great.

[Lee Stewart]

Just an OBTW concerning Motion. While I was living in Lynbrook I owned a 1969 SS396 Camaro. I needed a new shifter. Went to Motion and talked with Joel. We became "store friends." I asked him why he never took advantage of the 1969 Camaro and Chevelle COPO programs. He told me he never knew they existed. To him, making a 427 Camaro or Chevelle meant ordering an L78 SS then doing the engine swap. I'm not sure Marty Schorr knew about them at the time either. Motion was one of the few who was not a dealer like Yenko, Jack Douglas or Berger who sold 427 Camaros and Chevelles. Everyone one of his cars was made specifically for a customer. He didn't stock them. He built them to order.

[x33rs]

Interesting how cheap they sold. Kind of falls in line with my thinking. I'd much rather have a COPO or YENKO car so to me I value those a bit higher.

We haven't had any interest in new cars for several years now and have been using classics for transportation. I like em' just the way the factory built them, I don't need them to be modernized. So if I had money to blow a new car is the last thing on the list for me. I'd buy a COPO, then I'd be driving it :beers:

[L78M22Rag]

Other than our family driver, I’ve never had the urge to walk into a dealership and drop a large sum of cash on a new sports car that will be worth 60% of that price tag when I’m bored with it and looking for something else. That’s just me... I’d rather plunk less money on a car that’s already depreciated in value and will hold its value for the foreseeable future while I enjoy it.

Whenever you think you understand the market, there are other factors that you could never have anticipated and the market goes in a direction that you never expected. As was said about the brass cars... and other antiques like Model A’s, etc. Many have predicted those markets to crater as their caretakers passed on. When a market softens, a lot of things happen. Some “investors” panic and sell, while other lurking investors perk up and notice the opportunity.

I don’t have any idea where the musclecar market is destined to go, but I’m in it for the enjoyment of my cars... they’re all drivers. I’ll jump into my 1970 LS5 convertible survivor to drive 400 miles through the Rockies if the forecast looks good. I’ve done that with my L89 Chevelle too. If they’re too nice to drive, I’ll soon be bored with them. I think that’s partly why survivors are rising in popularity. They can and should be driven to maintain them.

I too believe that the elite cars hold their value just like a Picasso painting holds its value. I think there are followers of factory built musclecars and there are other followers of dealer modified cars. That’s what makes us all different. I do, however, think there is a trickle down effect as the elite dealers sell their second tier cars, the second tier investors will seize the opportunity to buy those second tier cars and sell their less desirable cars, and so on. Personally, I see more and more enthusiasts becoming aware of “original paint” and “born with” drivetrains, so I believe the survivor market is still strengthening or developing to some degree. Perhaps that’s attributable to collectors wanting to drive their cars?

[carnut4life]

I've got a day two COPO Camaro without the original engine and I beat on it just like I would have back in the day if I'd bought it new. If I put 100k to put into a Baldwin Motion car I would beat on it too, if your afraid to drive them you shouldn't own them IMO.

[resto4u]

one auction does not set current market value. the auction venue is also a factor in sale prices. It could have sold for more at another auction or different venue. in modern car wholesale auctions, they send cars all over the country based on car models and colors. They keep stats on sales, and send them to auctions they feel will bring the highest sale based on pure stats.

[the427king]

Well said. When a car sells for half its perceived value it's considered the true market because of aging baby boomers . When a car sells for twice what it supposedly is worth,everyone attributes alcohol and stupidity for the high price and wont accept the high price being the market

[Lee Stewart]

Well said. When a car sells for half its perceived value it's considered the true market because of aging baby boomers . When a car sells for twice what it supposedly is worth, everyone attributes alcohol and stupidity for the high price and wont accept the high price being the market

And there lies the problem that my post a few pages ago addressed: Estimated Market Value which is done by the auction house who is selling the car. A lot of those premium cars are one of ones (like the famous Elite Marti Report) :naughty:

Who benefits from the EMV?

[Lee Stewart]

https://i.postimg.cc/XYjX7V9x/ee.jpg (https://postimages.cc/)

This may be the future collector car . . . Electro-Mod. No gas engine.

[the427king]

Then 30 years from now people will be looking for the old "green new deal "race car.

[NorCam]

This may be the future collector car . . . Electro-Mod. No gas engine.

Guess I better develop an external speaker system to emulate the engine and camshaft sounds for future collector cars. Perhaps people can then hear them coming. Maybe develop a shaker to mount within the cars chassis so it shakes it at the lights when it rolls to a stop?

Sorry Lee....I had to :haha:

[Tenney]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9nXfffeAIU

[Lee Stewart]

You Luddites can laugh all you want. Let me tell you the specs on that Mustang: 546 HP and, are you ready for this? 5,225 pound feet of torque! 4 electric motors, one for each wheel.

What I won't tell you is the cost of the car because as they say . . . "if you have to ask you can't afford it."

All right, you twisted my arm . . . . $381,000

[NorCam]

OK...one more because I'm still laughing from Tenney's post.

s5IKthNYhVY

[SBR]

Well said. When a car sells for half its perceived value it's considered the true market because of aging baby boomers . When a car sells for twice what it supposedly is worth,everyone attributes alcohol and stupidity for the high price and wont accept the high price being the market

Funny how that works isn't it.

[Lee Stewart]

Bidders, sellers disagree on values at Monterey auctions

Although Bonhams and RM Sotheby’s added an early and extra day to their annual collector car auctions during Monterey Car Week 2019, with only Saturday action remaining, Hagerty Insider, which tracks such transactions, reports that gross sales are down nearly $50 million compared to year-ago figures for the six auction venues.

Through Friday a year ago, bidders had spent $191 million at the six auctions. Through Friday this year, sales were $142.1 million, Hagerty reported.

https://journal.classiccars.com/2019/08/17/bidders-sellers-disagree-on-values-at-monterey-auctions/

[rich p]

[QUOTE=Lee Stewart;1459906]Bidders, sellers disagree on values at Monterey auctions


Through Friday a year ago, bidders had spent $191 million at the six auctions. Through Friday this year, sales were $142.1 million, Hagerty reported.


One car brought 40+million alone! Add a few more of those that year and there goes 50% down to 10%. Numbers were down because of the estimated values from the owners & auction too!!!LOL!! 150 million in one week, Sorry that is GREAT!!! Hello McFly's
People complain to me that they are seeing the same cars over and over!! Cars not seen before at auctions are usually SOLD!!
The American dollar is the strongest around the world!! Real American dollar being spent while other countries are not getting these cars at 40-50% off on our dollar!! Rare cars and low production cars still bring great money for restored level one condition or survivors!! Advice!! Stay away from PIGS in LIPSTICK...
Great chance to pick off cars that are never for sale for true collectors looking for great cars!
Some see Doom & Gloom others see it as OPPORTUNITY..

Look at BJ this weekend in Vegas!! AMAZING MONEY!!! Look at their total!! CRAZY!!!!!!!

[chevelleheart]

Ok , ...the moped and the horn video is wicked ! I’m still laughing!

[rich p]

HELLO!!! BAD YEAR!!!!!!! Sorry this is HUGE MONEY!!!

The high-dollar sale of the day was a 1994 McLaren F1 in LM specification that brought $19.805 million at RM Sotheby’s, which also sold a 1965 Ford GT40 prototype roadster for $7.65 million. Meanwhile, at Gooding and Company, a 1958 Ferrari 250 LWB California Spider sold for $9.905 million and the Ferrari 312T that Niki Lauda drove to victory in the 1975 French Grand Prix went for $6 million.

Other sales of note, Hagerty said, included, at Bonhams, a 1951 Ferrari 340 America coming out of single-family ownership after 50 years and selling for $3.635 million, and a 1965 Shelby Cobra 427 going for $1.38 millions. Mecum sold a 1912 Indian Twin board-track racing motorcycle for $253,000, a record for an Indian motorcycle at auction, and a 198-mile Mercedes-Benz 560SL for what it termed a “staggering” $121,000.