Not LS-6 @Barrett-Jackson Las Vegas 2019

[Mr70]

Did anyone here buy this?..If so,it was originally assembled as an LS-5 and has been documented by past ownerships.It was once in the LS-6 registry,but has since been removed.
VIN 136370R221194 https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1970-CHEVROLET-CHEVELLE-LS6-234262

[McCune]

The guy who bought was sure excited to pay 125K for it.

[ALLZS]

Ya i thought was strong $$$ for a automatic $125k plus the juice

[SS427]

The builder of this car is well known for building clones and even a rebodied LS6 convertible. Needs to do some time behind bars to show him how worthwhile it was to take advantage of people.

[TopRat]

There are a bunch of scammers out there that need a swift kick in the grapes! These people are scum of the earth!

[XXXGoldL34M20]

Former owner in my Chevelle Club that owned it before it became an LS6 noted this car even fooled a top inspector and CY Trans had a re stamped tag that was done incorrectly and poorly. Not going to get into details here but lots of info from this past owner in my group that gives a lot of info on this car calling it a CLONE in it's current state.
For the $125K guy got Ripped Off IMO after reading the comments in my club.

[the427king]

That's why the cars are at auction....24hr money back guarantee and then you own it.

[SS427]

That's why the cars are at auction....24hr money back guarantee and then you own it.


Which will not protect the seller/builder if the current owner decides to sue and can prove everything that is being said. I would say that the builder may want to run away and hide as his days are numbered in the cloning market. Thank goodness I had nothing to do with this car but know the builder well and have a pretty extensive file on many of his builds including the rebodied LS6 convert. I HATE these kinds of people especially when some of them were friends at one time and they have really destroyed the hobby in the name of greed. They are so good at playing dumb and pretending to be your friend. Money can do horrible things to people, starting with greed.

[DW31S]

P.T.Barnum said it best.....

[SS427]

Just wish these seat lovers would hire a professional before they lay the money out. A G-note now is a lot cheaper than bringing home a clone only to find out what they got later. I stood next to the buyer of another black LS6 (fake) at Mecum Indy about 5 years ago. He was having the time of his life and happier than hell to have the winning bid. I wanted desperately to get him to ask me what I thought of his car after he won the bid but had to keep my mouth shut for legal reasons. Had he asked me or hired me I would have saved him about $175k!

[the427king]

Does he have a name? Or is he just a well known cloner?

[McCune]

Christi Lee said it had the correct CE block in it when the car was featured, before it went over the block.

[Mr70]

Prior to last week,it sold for 88K in 2015 at B-J Scottsdale as an LS-6 too.
Perpetuate a lie long enough and it soon becomes acceptable?
https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1970-CHEVROLET-CHEVELLE-SS-LS6-180571
Heard Jerry M. certified it,but was that as a real original LS-6 or just as an 1970 Chevelle Super Sport?

[MYSTERYCHEVELLE]

clearly, the new owner was not interested in doing any form of Research before buying this car as its apparent from this post., it's not a CIA Secret that this car is a clone. Makes ya wonder when are buyers going to stop being lazy and do an ounce of due diligence??

I do hate these scumbags who are passing these cars off as real but come on people.... Smart enough to have made such a good living to afford a $125K car but too Stupid to make some calls :(

[1969L89]

It's just sad we have dishonest people cloning these cars. I've been collecting petroleum items for 30+ years and the amount of fake signs being produced is unreal and out of control. It almost takes the fun out of the hobby.

[seventieshow]

Not sure if this is the same car...

https://www.mecum.com/lots/KC1213-169847/1970-chevrolet-chevelle-ls6/

...sure has been through a lot of auctions.

[rlw68]

Prior to last week,it sold for 88K in 2015 at B-J Scottsdale as an LS-6 too.
Perpetuate a lie long enough and it soon becomes acceptable?
https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1970-CHEVROLET-CHEVELLE-SS-LS6-180571


Also at Scottsdale 2019 with a $56100 winning bid,

https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1970-CHEVROLET-CHEVELLE-LS6-224541

Third time was the charm for this one :grin: Nice flip.

[SS427]

Previous seller also knew it was a fake so he is also guilty.

[Tenney]

Auction listing states "This 1970 Chevelle SS came from the factory with the LS6 engine option". Should be an easy deal to unwind if the buyer so chose ...?

[Burd]

Just say no to auctions. I go to BJ to see the women, the cars are there so I look at them. Lol

[Nova Pete]

Why would this car be in a registry if its a known fake? That doesn't make sense to me.

[SS427]

Its no longer in the registry and has not been for quite some time. I am not sure what was provided to Dale when it was originally registered or how it was listed.

[SBR]

clearly, the new owner was not interested in doing any form of Research before buying this car as its apparent from this post., it's not a CIA Secret that this car is a clone. Makes ya wonder when are buyers going to stop being lazy and do an ounce of due diligence??

I do hate these scumbags who are passing these cars off as real but come on people.... Smart enough to have made such a good living to afford a $125K car but too Stupid to make some calls :(

I agree, people who clone cars in the name of $$ are pure scum that ruin it for those that have the real deal. As for the buyers, in most cases it has been my experience at least with Corvettes, that they would rather buy the car first then ask about it later which makes no sense. My theory is that most of these guys are very successful and are not used to having someone tell them what to do.

[SS427]

It happens all the time. I get the call after someone has bought the car and want me to inspect it. I am then the asshole when I tell them the car is fake, has fake paperwork, non original drivetrain, etc.

On the flip side I apologized to a customer once for the inspection (pre-purchase) costing so much and being able to disqualify the car within 15 minutes of arriving. He responded with, are you kidding? You just saved me $150,000! That put a new perspective on things for me.

The builder of the car in this thread needs to go to jail and it is up to us that are true hobbyist to see that these people pay hefty fines or do some jail time. LS6's have been very soft as of late and I think we can attribute some of it to these people ruining for others.

[Nova Pete]

Anyone know this guy?


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro-ZL-1/163894592795?hash=item2628e1051b:g:GL8AAOSw3v5Yqmn 3

[SBR]

It happens all the time. I get the call after someone has bought the car and want me to inspect it. I am then the asshole when I tell them the car is fake, has fake paperwork, non original drivetrain, etc.

On the flip side I apologized to a customer once for the inspection (pre-purchase) costing so much and being able to disqualify the car within 15 minutes of arriving. He responded with, are you kidding? You just saved me $150,000! That put a new perspective on things for me.

The builder of the car in this thread needs to go to jail and it is up to us that are true hobbyist to see that these people pay hefty fines or do some jail time. LS6's have been very soft as of late and I think we can attribute some of it to these people ruining for others.

It sure would be nice if the GM docs surfaced, I know it won't happen. That would be must see TV!

[olredalert]

Anyone know this guy?


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro-ZL-1/163894592795?hash=item2628e1051b:g:GL8AAOSw3v5Yqmn 3

----The picture of Bill Porterfield and Ronnie Sox was taken at Quaker City. The weekend was called Field of Dreams. I can't remember for sure but Grady Burch may have been there with his COPO Chevelle. Bill did what he stated before the weekend really started and then broke. I was asked to step in with Red Alert even though Ronnie's and my times were about 3/4 of a second apart. The Hemi Cuda actually belonged to Dale Smith (RIP), my long time close friend from Bloomington IL. and he paid Ronnie to drive that weekend. Dale owned OEM Glass. We finally bargained to a 1/2 second, as I just wanted to say I raced the famous R.Sox. Ronnie wasn't used to someone leaving a half second ahead of him and stood the Hemi on the rear bumper. I got of a little crooked and later found out that I scared some of the photographers so much they ran back from the railing, but Red Alert always landed well. Meanwhile Ronnie hit the ground so hard that he holed the oil pan. He either didn't know it or didn't care and tried to catch me, but I won by a whisker! It's infinetly better saying you beat Ronnie Sox than just saying you raced Ronnie Sox!!! LOL......Bill S

----Apologize for getting away from an important topic!...….Bill S

[DW31S]

The buyer either doesn’t care or doesn’t know, and it seems as though B-J doesn’t care either. The real fine print of their (B-J) disclosure clearly states they are not responsible for “numbers”.
Greed is indeed a deadly sin and it seems several people are guilty of it when it comes to this particular car.
Does anyone here know who bought it in January for $51000 plus the juice? I’m wondering if it was purchased to make money, or if the buyer found out what he/she really had and decided to turn it loose (and make a nice hit).

[MYSTERYCHEVELLE]

Rick and I have both spoken about this situation many times. Just as he did here. I was just last week put in the same situation for a 67 SS L-78 on eBay. Still on eBay. Buyer saw it’s listed in the “L-78 Registry” and was happy to to put down a sizable deposit. Then enter the lets see if Mike knows this car? You can figure out the rest I think. Almost spent close to 6 figures :(

Unfortunately I think many are unintentionally misled by seeing these CERTIFICATES of being in a Registry. I’m not sure that means the same as verified and authenticity of a car. I do know, there’s plenty of people out here who can help someone BEFORE buying a car. Some may do it for FREE and that’s fine and Dandy and others get paid which is also more than fine and dandy. But I for one think everyone should continue to reinforce with all of our friends to get a car verified first. Put your Pride aside. I know many who think “ I don’t need to pay someone to tell me if a stamp is fake or document is fake.... I know just as much as that guy” Buyer Beware.... even all of us

[XXXGoldL34M20]

I actually know a former owner of this car,
Used to be a real deal SS 454 LS5 car built out of Arlington Plant, he still has photos of the CS Tag for an Auto LS5 400 along with a bit of history on the car.
He told me it was converted to a LS6 car right after he sold it, Next seller knowing it had a perfect match for the rear end (3.31 Auto Posi code had both the same rear axle for LS5 & LS6) then added a bogus CY trans tag that was incorrectly stamped and finally putting in a CE Warranty LS6 block (Which is BS with no documents to back it up). Knowing there was NO Build sheet for this Arlington car stated it was an LS6 after these changes NASTY.
Destroyed what was already a true LS5 SS, also never had stripes before it was turned into a LS6 CLONE.
My verification for this car would have taken minutes to do if someone hired me to do the inspection LOL. Pretty sad what goes on but it is happening a lot more today.
I tell my clients not to buy cars at auctions anyways as there are about only 10% to 20% of the cars being real IMO and from my experience.

[markinnaples]

----The picture of Bill Porterfield and Ronnie Sox was taken at Quaker City. The weekend was called Field of Dreams. I can't remember for sure but Grady Burch may have been there with his COPO Chevelle. Bill did what he stated before the weekend really started and then broke. I was asked to step in with Red Alert even though Ronnie's and my times were about 3/4 of a second apart. The Hemi Cuda actually belonged to Dale Smith (RIP), my long time close friend from Bloomington IL. and he paid Ronnie to drive that weekend. Dale owned OEM Glass. We finally bargained to a 1/2 second, as I just wanted to say I raced the famous R.Sox. Ronnie wasn't used to someone leaving a half second ahead of him and stood the Hemi on the rear bumper. I got of a little crooked and later found out that I scared some of the photographers so much they ran back from the railing, but Red Alert always landed well. Meanwhile Ronnie hit the ground so hard that he holed the oil pan. He either didn't know it or didn't care and tried to catch me, but I won by a whisker! It's infinetly better saying you beat Ronnie Sox than just saying you raced Ronnie Sox!!! LOL......Bill S

Now THAT is a great story! And seriously, if there's something to brag about regardless of the surrounding circumstances, it's beating Ronnie Sox. Congrats, that was brilliant.

[rlw68]

The buyer either doesn’t care or doesn’t know, and it seems as though B-J doesn’t care either. The real fine print of their (B-J) disclosure clearly states they are not responsible for “numbers”.


The auction listing also states the car is "fully documented with its original Protect-O-Plate". So I assume it has a fake Pop, with an LS6 engine code. What's up with this?

:hmmm:

[Charley Lillard]

I let someone from Barrett-Jackson know about this thread and they were aware of the problem and looking into it.

[Xplantdad]

Thanks Charley!

[Xplantdad]

Originally Posted by olredalert https://www.yenko.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1466015#post1466015)
----The picture of Bill Porterfield and Ronnie Sox was taken at Quaker City. The weekend was called Field of Dreams. I can't remember for sure but Grady Burch may have been there with his COPO Chevelle. Bill did what he stated before the weekend really started and then broke. I was asked to step in with Red Alert even though Ronnie's and my times were about 3/4 of a second apart. The Hemi Cuda actually belonged to Dale Smith (RIP), my long time close friend from Bloomington IL. and he paid Ronnie to drive that weekend. Dale owned OEM Glass. We finally bargained to a 1/2 second, as I just wanted to say I raced the famous R.Sox. Ronnie wasn't used to someone leaving a half second ahead of him and stood the Hemi on the rear bumper. I got of a little crooked and later found out that I scared some of the photographers so much they ran back from the railing, but Red Alert always landed well. Meanwhile Ronnie hit the ground so hard that he holed the oil pan. He either didn't know it or didn't care and tried to catch me, but I won by a whisker! It's infinetly better saying you beat Ronnie Sox than just saying you raced Ronnie Sox!!! LOL......Bill S



Now THAT is a great story! And seriously, if there's something to brag about regardless of that surrounding circumstances, it's beating Ronnie Sox. Congrats, that was brilliant.




Agreed! Bill has all of the cool stories!! :biggthumpup:

[TimG]

The bottom line is don't buy a rare car that has a stamper motor and no valid paperwork. It could have been born something else and you'll probably find out the hard way.

I'm sure the fact that the motor was restamped would have been detected by a knowledgeable person. The only thing you have to go on after that is paperwork, and without that you're out on a limb.

No motor or no paperwork = no sale in my book.

[purple panther]

The bigger problem its been sold 2 times as an LS-6 thru auctions according to posters on this thread . Whoever owns its now is going to have some cover. Personally I hate this crap because it hurts the real cars. Who certified the car as a LS-6?

[Mr70]

Represented 5X as an LS-6.Looks like 3X through B-J,and 2X through Mecum.

In Chronological order:
https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1970-CHEVROLET-CHEVELLE-LS6-234262 Sold $137,500.
https://www.mecum.com/lots/SC0519-370159/1970-chevrolet-chevelle-ls6/ Bid to $80K
https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1970-CHEVROLET-CHEVELLE-LS6-224541 Sold $56,100.00
https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1970-CHEVROLET-CHEVELLE-SS-LS6-180571 Sold 88K.
https://www.mecum.com/lots/KC1213-169847/1970-chevrolet-chevelle-ls6/ Sold $41,500.

[Keith Seymore]

My theory is that most of these guys are very successful and are not used to having someone tell them what to do.

This is also why so many of them crash their private planes. They don't think the laws of physics apply to them either.

K

[DW31S]

I’d like to have the auction fees this car has generated!

[njsteve]

I’d like to have the auction fees this car has generated!

In Chronological order:
https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Even...LLE-LS6-234262 Sold $137,500.

https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Even...LLE-LS6-224541 Sold $56,100.00
https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Even...-SS-LS6-180571 Sold 88K.
https://www.mecum.com/lots/KC1213-16...-chevelle-ls6/ Sold $41,500.

If you calculate the 10% from buyer and 10% from the seller off the $323,200 total sales, you get $64K in commissions. You could build another two for that price. Hey, you could start a multi-level-marketing Ponzi scheme out of LS6's ;-)

[SBR]

I’d like to have the auction fees this car has generated!

It reminds me of trading places "now tell him the good part"

[mockingbird812]

So long as BJ and Mecum don't get hurt in any of these shenanigans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;>))

[rsinor]

It all makes for a black eye on the hobby, every time someone gets burned with one of these counterfeit vehicles it has the potential of taking that individual out of the hobby forever that is the bad side of it.

Until some auction house steps up and offers a guarantee of the description, it will never get any better. Barrett-Jackson does some due diligence with their automotive experts attempting to limit the false claims, but even that pales in the eyes of what is truly needed.

[DW31S]

It seems as though the experts at B-J only say if a car is what it is claimed to be; I’ve yet to hear/read/see one of the staff experts say a consigned vehicle is a fake (before it hits the block).

[rsinor]

I'm certainly not defending anything or anyone here. I stand by my statement "Until some auction house steps up and offers a guarantee of the description, it will never get any better."

Having served as an automotive expert for Barrett-Jackson in the past I can assure you many descriptions have been changed, some cars have been removed from the sale and some have even been impounded by the authorities. So I might disagree with your claim. It's also pretty hard to review 170 plus cars in your area of expertise within a few days which is often all you have. I actually had cars show up for the first time in the staging lane and changed the description on the car when it was literally one car away. It's not as easy as hind site makes it sound.

[the427king]

"Until some auction house steps up and offers a guarantee of the description...."

While that would do alot help these situations, thats never ever going to happen.

[Charley Lillard]

I can attest that Barrett is trying to weed out the fakes. They even have guys that inspect the restomod cars to make sure the description matches what they see. Like saying the car has a LS3 but when checked it simply has a LS1. They are then given the option of changing the description to correctly reflect what is there or pull the car from the auction. Or vins have been swapped so they inform law enforcement.

[the427king]

Heck , the guys that "certify" cars for a living make mistakes,and besides THEY wont even guarantee and stand behind thier certifications in writing ......

[rlw68]

I asked in an earlier post about the original protecto plate this car has been advertised with having. It hasnt been mentioned... have I stepped in something? Maybe it was a dumb question or y'all just dont like me :dunno:

My understanding is the LS5/LS6 have specific engine codes, like the DZ on my Camaro. These are also on the POP of course, but would it be reissued for a CE replacement? I thought a new POP would only be made if the car was sold during the warranty period. Either way this isnt the "original" one.

[ZLP955]

Rob I've searched for years trying to find an example of paperwork issued to an owner on replacement of a damaged engine/block or trans with a warranty CE or CT unit, no luck. Wanted to see if they recorded the CE/CT Stamp number and cross-referenced it to the car's VIN. JohnZ wrote once that he had some documentation for the CE block and one cylinder head replaced in his Z/28 under warranty circa 1970, but the docs were stored in a file and not readily available. The car sold a few years ago, so that door is closed.
My understanding (having viewed limited replacement PoPs) is that they were issued to a second owner within factory warranty period, on payment of a warranty transfer fee - there is wording to this effect on warranty protection plan wallets - or if the original was lost, but replacements did not contain all of the data stamped on the original PoP.

[Mr70]

The Protect O Plate booklet for this subject car is not genuine & was recently made with new world technology.
Seller claimed he found it hidden up inside the dashboard.
One owner before him,(who removed & restored the dashboard many years ago),laughed at that claim on so many levels.

[67since67]

Rob I've searched for years trying to find an example of paperwork issued to an owner on replacement of a damaged engine/block or trans with a warranty CE or CT unit, no luck. Wanted to see if they recorded the CE/CT Stamp number and cross-referenced it to the car's VIN. JohnZ wrote once that he had some documentation for the CE block and one cylinder head replaced in his Z/28 under warranty circa 1970, but the docs were stored in a file and not readily available. The car sold a few years ago, so that door is closed.
My understanding (having viewed limited replacement PoPs) is that they were issued to a second owner within factory warranty period, on payment of a warranty transfer fee - there is wording to this effect on warranty protection plan wallets - or if the original was lost, but replacements did not contain all of the data stamped on the original PoP.

Is this any help? Issued to second owner of a '69 Chevelle SS in '71 when a CE block was installed.

[ZLP955]

Thanks! I'll PM you to avoid taking this thread off original topic.

[rsinor]

The car delivered new in GA, not CA that would tell me the POP is counterfeit!! Dealer trades were not happening 2200 miles apart in 1970, doubt they do today very often.

[XXXGoldL34M20]

And now another LS6 on eBay with a Fake Build Sheet and was once a former known L34 Race car that used to be owned by another one of my club members.
Can't believe how bad this hobby is getting !!!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-Chevrolet-Chevelle/223701808023?hash=item3415aab397%3Ag%3AMOsAAOSwj~t doHWP&fbclid=IwAR0CBkRkUXxT-2IRz4kPVtj9M2ddA0MIzomIXZXpgHFwPsw1Gc-GKoPgyKE

[Mr70]

I recall that Green L-34 when it was on Racingjunk.I tried to go see it for another who was interested,but the seller sold it too soon.
Many know it's true heritage.

[PeteLeathersac]

And now another LS6 on eBay with a Fake Build Sheet and was once a former known L34 Race car that used to be owned by another one of my club members.
Can't believe how bad this hobby is getting !!!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-Chevrolet-Chevelle/223701808023?hash=item3415aab397%3Ag%3AMOsAAOSwj~t doHWP&fbclid=IwAR0CBkRkUXxT-2IRz4kPVtj9M2ddA0MIzomIXZXpgHFwPsw1Gc-GKoPgyKE

LS6 Clone VIN 136370B167139
:beers:
~ Pete

.

[MYSTERYCHEVELLE]

Maybe. Instead of a REGISTRY of Real LS 6 or L78 or Whatever.... a Registry with known information on Clones is needed. LOL

I’ll keep sayin it. We can’t control what these cars are advertised as.... but we can and should continue to beat the drum that you just have to ask questions before buying!! I have little sympathy I’m afraid for the guys who do No Homework. Some folks spend a weekend on the internet researching which new Flat Screen Tv to buy.... but spend less than 45 mins researching whether the muscle car they are about to spend a years salary on, is legit. No Joke.

[Igosplut]

And now another LS6 on eBay with a Fake Build Sheet and was once a former known L34 Race car that used to be owned by another one of my club members.
Can't believe how bad this hobby is getting !!!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-Chevrolet-Chevelle/223701808023?hash=item3415aab397%3Ag%3AMOsAAOSwj~t doHWP&fbclid=IwAR0CBkRkUXxT-2IRz4kPVtj9M2ddA0MIzomIXZXpgHFwPsw1Gc-GKoPgyKE

It's coming to the point that there's a need for an LS6 clone registry......

[SS427]

It's coming to the point that there's a need for an LS6 clone registry......

I have always had a registry on real cars in addition to fakes but LS6 cars only. However, due to liability issues it cannot be published. Also, many are suspect but not confirmed due to such things as restamped drivetrain, paperwork, history, etc.

[rlw68]

Until some auction house steps up and offers a guarantee of the description, it will never get any better.


When Chevrolet gives up the build records this will all be over !

Its a non-issue for Pontiacs, even when the Firebirds were made at Norwood.http://www.phs-online.com/order.htm

:rolleyes:

[dvss1]

That will never happen. If it did it would of been around the time when there were more so called original 67 l88 vetts than what were originally produced! It will NEVER happen!

[TopRat]

I must say I love the fact we can get documentation for cars built here in Canada and Imported. It doesn’t protect us from scum bag restampers but at least we know the cars started out as something.

[Bill Pritchard]

This is also why so many of them crash their private planes. They don't think the laws of physics apply to them either.

K

:haha:


If there was a clone registry, it would probably have more entries than the 'legit' registry.

[GrumpyJeff]

'Known Clone" Registry would be nice !!! haha

[seventieshow]

"When Chevrolet gives up the build records this will all be over..."

Is there such a thing? And if so why aren't they available? Asking because I don't know and have heard different things, a lot of the people on here would have a better idea then most.

[XXXGoldL34M20]

It's Ironic that Chevrolet found most of the Shipping Data that NCRS now has a service for but yet they can't dig up the Assembly Build Records on these cars like Oshawa Canada Kept for there cars built and Imported into Canada.

I bet there still out there but they don't want to disclose them for some reason from the USA Chevrolet files. I just don't buy that rumour that they were lost in a fire.
Hopefully one day they will emerge but wishful thinking IMO

[seventieshow]

"I just don't buy that rumour that they were lost in a fire..."

Never heard that. What I most commonly hear is due to the volume of production, Chevrolet just didn't keep up with records very well, and over time, they disappeared. Easy to see that happening when Van Nuys or Norwood shut down, or when the St Louis Corvette assembly moved to Bowling Green.

My apologies for getting so for off the subject of the original post.

[SBR]

It's Ironic that Chevrolet found most of the Shipping Data that NCRS now has a service for but yet they can't dig up the Assembly Build Records on these cars like Oshawa Canada Kept for there cars built and Imported into Canada.

I bet there still out there but they don't want to disclose them for some reason from the USA Chevrolet files. I just don't buy that rumour that they were lost in a fire.
Hopefully one day they will emerge but wishful thinking IMO

I agree that the records exist in some fashion whether it be through the zone office, parts, service, shipping etc. That said, I highly doubt they will surface. Think of all the lawsuits where an attorney could say, you had the build records all of this time but chose not to release them and as a result my client got burned or something to that effect.

Bottom line is if the buyers were willing to admit to themselves that they are in over their heads and hire an expert to examine a car before they buy, this would be a non issue.

[drce500]

the auctions could care less,including the great b-j,this car was brought to their attention by previous owner and they totally blew it off.when proof was presented to them they said the vice president(the moron who wears sunglasses inside maybe?)would be in touch,years later no such contact
https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1968-CHEVROLET-BISCAYNE-2-DOOR-HARDTOP-39824

[Charley Lillard]

He wears the sunglasses because of a eye condition and is a nice guy.

[drce500]

could be but still no call from him or anyone else at b-j

[Igosplut]

It's Ironic that Chevrolet found most of the Shipping Data that NCRS now has a service for but yet they can't dig up the Assembly Build Records on these cars like Oshawa Canada Kept for there cars built and Imported into Canada.

I bet there still out there but they don't want to disclose them for some reason from the USA Chevrolet files. I just don't buy that rumour that they were lost in a fire.
Hopefully one day they will emerge but wishful thinking IMO

I always figured they didn't want to be drawn into the many lawsuits that would fly about fake cars.

[rlw68]

Interesting article from August 2016 ...

https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Media/Home/Reader/barrett-jackson-automotive-expert-jerry-macneish-talks-about-z28-camaros/


In my role as a member of the Barrett-Jackson team of automotive experts, I am asked to review certain rare Z/28, SS396 and COPO 427 Camaros – as well as LS6 Chevelles and L79 Nova SS Chevy IIs – at each auction that are represented, by the consignor, to have “matching numbers.”

The same holds true for the LS6 Chevelle. Many LS6 Chevelles consigned to Barrett-Jackson are listed as having “matching numbers.” Any lifelong drag racer knows that many or most of these cars were driven hard on the street or racetrack – LS6 Chevelles were high-performance cars with solid lifters and were often pushed to their limits. When a consignor represents that their car is a matching-numbers LS6, our job is to help make sure the description is accurate.

[MYSTERYCHEVELLE]

Interesting article from August 2016 ...

https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Media/Home/Reader/barrett-jackson-automotive-expert-jerry-macneish-talks-about-z28-camaros/


So the question ya gotta ask yourself is..... " Do you feel lucky today?" " Well do ya?"

All kidding aside, people do still need to ask themselves.... is seeing a car that was verified or listed as real or in a registry.... enough to just pull the trigger without investigating further ??

For me, I would still do my own due dilligence and the ask the people I trust to look at the docs and stampings and tags. That's just me

[DW31S]

I'm certainly not defending anything or anyone here. I stand by my statement "Until some auction house steps up and offers a guarantee of the description, it will never get any better."

Having served as an automotive expert for Barrett-Jackson in the past I can assure you many descriptions have been changed, some cars have been removed from the sale and some have even been impounded by the authorities. So I might disagree with your claim. It's also pretty hard to review 170 plus cars in your area of expertise within a few days which is often all you have. I actually had cars show up for the first time in the staging lane and changed the description on the car when it was literally one car away. It's not as easy as hind site makes it sound.

I hear ya Roy, and I'm not in total disagreement with you. I'm friends with one of the experts and I've heard some horror stories. My point was/is that the cars that are inspected and deemed "illegitimate" aren't announced as clones/fake/tribute, or whatever the latest term is when they are offered (the majority of the time). I've heard the word "undocumented" thrown around lately, and in my opinion, that is nothing more than a build that was intended to deceive. IF a car is "genuinely undocumented" there would/could/should be enough tell-tale signs for an expert of the marque to determine the veracity of said vehicle. The fake P-O-P is nothing new. Many years ago I bought a CE 512 block for an LS-6 from a fellow (no names) that had a P-O-P machine in his dining room complete with original GM tape and blanks. This was back in the mid '90s, so like I said, faking docs isn't new. At that time, the going rate for a "Genuine GM" P-O-P was $275. Technically, they WERE Genuine GM, they just weren't ORIGINAL. The whole thing STINKS if you ask me.

[SS427]

And as long as we keep patronizing these fake paper makers they will continue to prosper and the problem deepen. If some of these people were truly making some of these documents and the cars for show only or for their own enjoyment they would make such paperwork and/or cars VIN's made public but so far no one is willing to do that. In some states you as a builder who sells a car to a customer with full disclosure but that person sells it as real can still be held accountable so they need to be very careful.

I have purchased a lot of material over the years such as POP machines, tape, stamps, dealer invoice books, etc, etc for the sole purpose of getting such items off the streets. Very expensive to purchase but at least they are not on the street being used fraudulently. They are now on display in our showroom showcases.

[1903USMCUnertl]

An interesting thread...buffoonery abounds...

It just isn't cars guys routinely fake for profit. I also have an interest in WW2 US/German firearms, especially USMC sniper rifles.

I own one of the top real examples of what most collectors call an USMC Unertl sniper and have turned down in excess of $45k for it. A group of us who belong to a secret squirrel FB group, realized the number of fake rifles FAR exceeded the number of original ones. As a result I created a registry to track serial numbers and serve as a record.

I mention this as originally the registry was only about real rifles...ones we could prove were righteous. However after talking about it and noting guys were selling fakes for half or more of the value (a lot of money regardless)...we now track ANY serial we see reporting to be an Unertl sniper.

It still hasn't stopped some guys from spending stupid money (1 guy bought 2 obvious fakes for almost 75k total...with different transactions....and knew how to ask questions BEFORE buying...but got caught up in auction BS...lol)..

Tracking all reported (real and fakes) has allowed us to have a historical database we can reference, supplied some interesting quantitative data and actually saved a couple of guys from getting burned...

Something to consider in the future.

[purple panther]

The problem is with pop plates that some individuals(( we know who they are)) have nos booklets and the pop machines along with nos tape. You cannot tell their fakes without a serious investigation of past owners and addresses.