Baldwin COPO

[fsc66]

Saw on ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro-COPO-/153786764854?nma=true&si=bCq1P7vIafWtCH%252F1ts%252FT0T7cLPw%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[x Baldwin Motion]

Listing description

[Rebelrouser]

Yes that car has been discussed here before on another thread. Yes it's in Canada-Winnipeg I think-and was originally an auto. Vin is 124379N620192 out of Baldwin NY. Not a "Motion" conversion car just a COPO that was sold out of there. It's in the registry here just above the 50th ZL1 car in the list.

[Alisters]

Hi u mention in ur post there is a copo registry we’re can I find this registry info as u did

[L_e_e]

https://www.yenko.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=133

[L78_Nova]

Anyone know if the Baldwin COPO sold ?

[Alisters]

Ya it did sell to some guy up in B.C. Canada

[Lee Stewart]

That's interesting - a Baldwin Chevrolet COPO. I asked Joel Rosen why he didn't take advantage of the COPO program in 1969 - why was he still converting L78s into L72s. He told me he had no idea the program existed.

[Carleen]

That's interesting - a Baldwin Chevrolet COPO. I asked Joel Rosen why he didn't take advantage of the COPO program in 1969 - why was he still converting L78s into L72s. He told me he had no idea the program existed.

There is more then one.
And they were ordered early.
I think there were at least 10 COPOs ordered by Baldwin Motion.

[Mr70]

It's just Baldwin Auto,not Baldwin Motion,which was Joel Rosens' separate speed shop where he did the modifying.

[Carleen]

Okay. Ordered by Joel Rosen through Baldwin Auto.

[GotGrunt]

Okay. Ordered by Joel Rosen through Baldwin Auto.

I don’t think Joel Rosen had anything to do with the batch of COPOs ordered through Baldwin Auto.

[Carleen]

Here is some of BM COPOs

[GotGrunt]

Here is some of BM COPOs

The top and bottom photos look to be Bob McDonald COPOs that may have had the Motion treatment. The middle car is not a COPO, it’s a Motion shop car (SS 427 conversion) that was displayed at the NY auto show and then later sold to Brooklyn Heavy.

[Carleen]

Its a COPO 9561

[Carleen]

Heres a Picture of Passionate Persimmon / Brooklyn Wild Pumpkin.
And she is a COPO 9561 probably a COPO 9511 also.
Today she has Endura Bumper.
Mach 1 mirrors is painted and are going to be assembled this spring.

[Carleen]

x

[Carleen]

z

[Carleen]

w

[GotGrunt]

Heres a Picture of Passionate Persimmon / Brooklyn Wild Pumpkin.
And she is a COPO 9561 probably a COPO 9511 also.
Today she has Endura Bumper.
Mach 1 mirrors is painted and are going to be assembled this spring.

How can you be sure your car is the same as the Baldwin Motion car pictured? Has Joel Rosen authenticated it? Also, wasn’t your car originally blue? That would mean Motion did a full color change on a brand new car in 1969. Joel Rosen and Martyn Schorr have both explicitly stated that Motion never ordered COPOs for their 427 super car conversions so I’m just a little confused how it could be a double COPO.

[R68GTO]

z

Oh my Lord that is beautiful!

[Carleen]

Yes she was Glacier Blue when she left the plant but was painted Orange and had Passionate Persimmons written along side of it.
But before the auto show it was painted orange again but with black Hockey stick.
You can look at the hockey stick close to the bumper.
She also have Brooklyn Wild Pumpkin, Heavy, Heavys Camaro. NHRA Champion written that shows through the paint.
I have pictures when they painted it and it also shows Pats Speed Center written in Gold.
I have talked to Martyn Schoor.

[Carleen]

Heres a Picture of her at the NY Auto Show.
Look at the Hockey Stick by the bumper

[GotGrunt]

Yes she was Glacier Blue when she left the plant but was painted Orange and had Passionate Persimmons written along side of it.
But before the auto show it was painted orange again but with black Hockey stick.
You can look at the hockey stick close to the bumper.
She also have Brooklyn Wild Pumpkin, Heavy, Heavys Camaro. NHRA Champion written that shows through the paint.
I have pictures when they painted it and it also shows Pats Speed Center written in Gold.
I have talked to Martyn Schoor.

What did Martyn have to say about it?

[Carleen]

I was going to copy what was said on FB but it seems to have been removed. I informed him about the Camaron and I told him he could check it out with Joel Rosen and he didnt have to say anything to me about the result.
Martyn is a member here so he might be able to comment

[GotGrunt]

I was going to copy what was said on FB but it seems to have been removed. I informed him about the Camaron and I told him he could check it out with Joel Rosen and he didnt have to say anything to me about the result.
Martyn is a member here so he might be able to comment

You should reach out to Joel directly about it. Being a demo shop car that was at the auto show, he would remember the car better than a customer order, and surely he would remember a color change from blue to orange.

[Carleen]

Ive talked to Joel Rosen and he wanted me to wait until the Pandemic is over.
Dan Palchanes told me before he disappeared that I had the BM Demo - Brooklyn Heavys Camaro. He spend some time with Rufus Boyd before he passed away.
Also Heavy told Dan that it was a COPO.

[GotGrunt]

Ive talked to Joel Rosen and he wanted me to wait until the Pandemic is over.
Dan Palchanes told me before he disappeared that I had the BM Demo - Brooklyn Heavys Camaro. He spend some time with Rufus Boyd before he passed away.
Also Heavy told Dan that it was a COPO.

Have you run a shipping data report for the car?

[Carleen]

Its a 01B car and the there no data or info on Camaro from mid Aug to end of Jan on Norwood Camaros.
VIN is 124379N580532
Nothing on NICB either

[GotGrunt]

Its a 01B car and the there no data or info on Camaro from mid Aug to end of Jan on Norwood Camaros.
VIN is 124379N580532
Nothing on NICB either

Would you mind posting up a picture of the trim tag?

[Carleen]

If I had to guess. Joel wanted it to have some psychedelic paint so it would stand out at the NY auto show. It also has numbers painted all over it together with Passion Persimmon. He probably dident like it as it turned out. So they painted it Orange again but with D90 stripes

[Carleen]

TT

[Carleen]

TT Better pic

[Carleen]

Look at the paint

[Carleen]

w

[cook_dw]

In the older photo above it looks like the marker lights were painted orange. Also appears the stripe from the auto show passed through the fender emblem where now it doesn't and of course the stinger stripe is now gone. I assume the car has been painted orange again since the auto show photo?

[Carleen]

Look again at the old Pictures.
And you can see numbers and letters.
This Camaro have been painted multi times.
When Heavy had it they painted it a couple times a year

[Carleen]

She had Stinger Hood at NY Auto Show.
And when Heavy bought her it got Stinger Hood

[cook_dw]

Just so I am understanding you correctly. This car was originally a COPO ordered by Baldwin and then converted by Motion or was a 396 car ordered by Baldwin and then converted by Motion? Sorry if I am dense just wanna make sure I am understanding the history of the car.

[Carleen]

Ordered COPO 9561 converted to SS427 Phase lll

[DW31S]

X22 copo?

[Carleen]

COPO 9561 Jan -69 X22 or X66

[Steve Shauger]

Why or who would have installed the fender SS emblems on the "COPO"and X22 . I'm coming in late on the discussion....

[Carleen]

427 fender emblems and SS fender emblems were glued there for the NY Auto Show to Promote the SS427 program.
Later they removed the 427 emblems on Fenders that you can see in the magazine. When Heavy had her the SS emblems was falling off.

[Carleen]

All COPOs 9561 in January Style Trim Camaro are X22

[cook_dw]

One of the S's missing. I'm sure you have these photos but figured I'd add as they are relevant.

[Steve Shauger]

Heres a Picture of her at the NY Auto Show.
Look at the Hockey Stick by the bumper

The trim tag to this car which you provided shows trim 711, in this picture it looks like deluxe....

[cook_dw]

Also deluxe in this photo.

[Steve Shauger]

We Vintage Certified an BM X22 L78. It was also an RS but with deluxe interior and converted 427 phase 3 car. It was documented with loads of documentation....

[Carleen]

There are only 4 bolts to replace a seat.
Also in the magazine they have TH400 but she had M22 from the factory

[GotGrunt]

There are only 4 bolts to replace a seat.
Also in the magazine they have TH400 but she had M22 from the factory

The question remains, why a savvy businessman like Joel Rosen wouldn’t just order an orange with deluxe interior Camaro instead of converting a blue car with standard interior to those specs. Also, not much evidence to support the car you correctly own is the same Baldwin Motion car talked about. That being said, you can’t say for sure that the passionate persimmon/wild pumpkin was not automatic from the factory. You are only basing that off your car being an M22. The only person who can definitively answer this question is Joel Rosen, but we know he has repeatedly stated that he didn’t use COPO 9651 for his builds, they were ordered as L78s.

[rts]

Why in the world would the go thru all this trouble to do a color change, an interior change, make it a 427 and also convert from a stick to an automatic?
When you could just order the exact car you wanted?

[cook_dw]

This was an email conversion with Marty Schorr back in 2020. I was given permission from the recipient of the email to post this here.

[PeteLeathersac]

'

If nose original parts, what of fender piercings from inside also 427 Crayon markings?

Whether Joel ordered any factory 427 Camaros or not is its own question but not knowing seems improbable as we've discussed at least 3x Baldwin sold 9561 cars here also some info suggests they delivered 10 or more plus add Brent's Dyno-Motion car to the evidence and Joel's connections w/ GM also everyone else into performance, how could he not know?

What year is the NY Auto Show pic w/ subject Motion Camaro from, 69 or 70?
1'st pic below is another angle from the same show w/ Motion Camaro in the background.
Pic w/ Joel and Zora is reputed to be the '70 show but may be a different year w/ same Motion 'Vette?:hmmm:
:beers:
~ Pete

.

[PeteLeathersac]

'

:beers:

.

[cook_dw]

I’m just curious of the story behind how Carleen came to the conclusion that his car is #1 a COPO & #2 the Motion/Heavy car. It had to be a lot of research behind it all.

[Carleen]

Remember shes Joels demo car that he used to Track Test various combinations and new components.

[Carleen]

I’m just curious of the story behind how Carleen came to the conclusion that his car is #1 a COPO & #2 the Motion/Heavy car. It had to be a lot of research behind it all.

Like 16 years

[COPO]

With the snippets I've seen posted here and there, seems like a good chance it's the real deal, but it's hard to follow as everything is scattered, so perhaps a comprehensive thread showing all the photographic, paperwork, and timeline evidence in one place laid out in a logical manner would be useful.

Of course with multiple statements from both Joel and Marty they were unaware of the COPO program cast a shadow on the story. I heard them both say this at the SCR they attended during the banquet dinner.

I do recall a full color article on an Orange SS RS car in HP Cars magazine, where they drove it to the track and bolted on slicks. I seem to recall the article was titled "fun for a day". I have the magazine somewhere, but not handy at the moment.

With that said, unless you're selling, you don't have to prove anything to anybody.

[DW31S]

The last ‘69 Camaro I owned was a 980 mile ex-NHRA Super Stocker that Bill Izykowski bought new from Reedman. It is an “01B” car, that was originally a 53 50 two-tone paint Glacier Blue/White roof with Blue standard interior. 396/350 horse stick that Bill ran in SS/H.
Trim tag reads “X22” and body number about 500 units before this one. I sincerely hope Carleen’s car is what it is claimed to be, but the one I had bears many similarities and was definitely not a COPO. I have pics of the tag and the car dressed in ‘69 livery if anyone wants to see them.

[Carleen]

The last ‘69 Camaro I owned was a 980 mile ex-NHRA Super Stocker that Bill Izykowski bought new from Reedman. It is an “01B” car, that was originally a 53 50 two-tone paint Glacier Blue/White roof with Blue standard interior. 396/350 horse stick that Bill ran in SS/H.
Trim tag reads “X22” and body number about 500 units before this one. I sincerely hope Carleen’s car is what it is claimed to be, but the one I had bears many similarities and was definitely not a COPO. I have pics of the tag and the car dressed in ‘69 livery if anyone wants to see them.

You cant see on the Trim Tag if it is a COPO or not

[Carleen]

More BM COPOs

[GotGrunt]

More BM COPOs

Although this car appears to be a COPO, it is 100% not a “Baldwin Motion” it was an out of state customers car that was driven to Motion for modification.

Me pointing this same car out in a previous thread:

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1454289&postcount=9

Martyn’s response to that car:

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1454293&postcount=11

[Carleen]

Window Sticker still on it

[GotGrunt]

Window Sticker still on it

That doesn’t change the fact that it was a customer supplied car from out of state. It was not purchased from Baldwin Chevrolet nor was it sold as a brand new Phase III. Martyn Schorr even confirmed that!

[Steve Shauger]

With the snippets I've seen posted here and there, seems like a good chance it's the real deal, but it's hard to follow as everything is scattered, so perhaps a comprehensive thread showing all the photographic, paperwork, and timeline evidence in one place laid out in a logical manner would be useful.

Of course with multiple statements from both Joel and Marty they were unaware of the COPO program cast a shadow on the story. I heard them both say this at the SCR they attended during the banquet dinner.

I do recall a full color article on an Orange SS RS car in HP Cars magazine, where they drove it to the track and bolted on slicks. I seem to recall the article was titled "fun for a day". I have the magazine somewhere, but not handy at the moment.

With that said, unless you're selling, you don't have to prove anything to anybody.

COPO, I respectfully disagree with your last statement. Carleen has presented this car as a COPO based on his opinion. Also I believe there have been facts and evidence provided by members that bring into question what the car was born as and history.

[DW31S]

You cant see on the Trim Tag if it is a COPO or not

I understand. I now must wonder if, down the road, the car I owned might somehow appear as an “undocumented COPO” from info gained from your research and this thread. I have copies of previous titles and am friends with the original owner, so IF that happens to play out, we can dispel the story. I can only assume your car has the tell-tale signs (piercings, etc.) associated with a COPO tub/shell. Now, that the pandemic is nearly in the rear view mirror, do you intend to contact Joel Rosen?

[GotGrunt]

I understand. I now must wonder if, down the road, the car I owned might somehow appear as an “undocumented COPO” from info gained from your research and this thread. I have copies of previous titles and am friends with the original owner, so IF that happens to play out, we can dispel the story. I can only assume your car has the tell-tale signs (piercings, etc.) associated with a COPO tub/shell. Now, that the pandemic is nearly in the rear view mirror, do you intend to contact Joel Rosen?

Carleen’s car being an X22, all the tell-tale signs of a COPO would also be found on an SS396 (L78) with factory ordered ZL2, minus of course if the X22 car were equipped with factory AC (which would make it an L35 or L34). The same goes for an X66. Now if those tell-tale signs were on an X11 or X44... Unfortunately once a car is fully restored, there’s no way to know if those items were there from the factory or added during restoration.

Carleen, can you post some pictures of your engine bay? Also, does your car have a BE 12-bolt rear in it? If so, is it date matched to your car?

[DW31S]

Carleen’s car being an X22, all the tell-tale signs of a COPO would also be found on an SS396 (L78) with factory ordered ZL2, minus of course if the X22 car were equipped with factory AC (which would make it an L35 or L34). The same goes for an X66. Now if those tell-tale signs were on an X11 or X44... Unfortunately once a car is fully restored, there’s no way to know if those items were there from the factory or added during restoration.

Carleen, can you post some pictures of your engine bay? Also, does your car have a BE 12-bolt rear in it? If so, is it date matched to your car?

That was kinda my point. I’m aware of “X66” Yenko cars, but am not too familiar with “X22 and/or “X66” COPOs. My former “X22” didn’t have the factory “Cold Air Package” originally, but the items were added not long after initially purchased. I’d be interested in knowing more about Carleen’s car and, like I said, I hope it is the car he thinks it is.

[COPO]

COPO, I respectfully disagree with your last statement. Carleen has presented this car as a COPO based on his opinion. Also I believe there have been facts and evidence provided by members that bring into question what the car was born as and history.

My point is Carleen can state whatever he wishes and people can also choose to disagree, but unless he's selling or trying to get his car officially certified, he doesn't have an obligation to prove his opinion to anyone. Anyone is free to have their own opinions of his car.

If he wants others to accept his opinion, then he would need to post evidence to convince others his opinion is correct. So far, this doesn't seem to be the case, hence my suggestion to show his evidence in a more organized manner rather than the snippets here and there.

Personally, my guess it was an L-78 from the factory as Joel and Marty both stated they never knew about the COPO program. It does seem to be Heavy's car based on the paint and lettering he said he has found, but better evidence of this would be helpful.

[Steve Shauger]

My point is when a car is represented as something on this site, especially a COPO there will be a healthy discussion. In this instance it is very clear this car is not a COPO. It is irrelevant whether it's being sold now or not, the true heritage, identity and history is important!

I have a Baldwin Automotive delivered car and one of the first things I did was contact Joel Rosen. He confirmed it wasn't prepped by Motion.

This site and CRG represent the authority on COPO's and our goal is maintain our integrity. A lot of time and effort goes into verifying and maintaining our COPO Registry.

[Carleen]

Written on Firewall
427 425 Special Order 427
427 425 L BLU S SYC
M22

[cook_dw]

Sorry but all I’m seeing is GL-BLU & RS. Also it doesn’t appear to be a cowl induction car originally at least from that photo.

[Kurt S]

First week of 9561 production, Baldwin didn't know about COPO's yet, neither did Motion. And the body # is normal production, as noted above by Dave, DW31S.

I have a document that states this car was sold by Brahms Chev in NJ and they installed a 427. Not sure of the validity of the doc.

Firewall - L BLU = light blue

[Carleen]

Okay its not a COPO.
And its not BM Demo.
And its not Heavys Camaro

Good thing you pointed out that L BLU means Light Blue had never figured it out myself

[Carleen]

You never thought that the Yenko cars had the COPO 9737 and that they had to wait for special parts before they could assemble them. Other dealers who only ordered COPO 9561 went through the process a little faster

[Carleen]

Heavy told Dan it was a COPO

[COPO]

If no cowl induction from factory, then not a COPO and a BE coded rear dated to the car would also be helpful to see. As I mentioned, it was most likely a X22 L-78 equipped car and then had a 427 transplant.

If it was the same orange SS RS car in the Super Car magazine article that Marty wrote, then Motion did the transplant. If shipping records show it was delivered to Baldwin, then good chance it is a BM car, but more history and research is needed.

[GotGrunt]

First week of 9561 production, Baldwin didn't know about COPO's yet, neither did Motion. And the body # is normal production, as noted above by Dave, DW31S.

I have a document that states this car was sold by Brahms Chev in NJ and they installed a 427. Not sure of the validity of the doc.

Firewall - L BLU = light blue

Is this the document you have?

[GotGrunt]

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showpost.php?p=983338&postcount=1

[GotGrunt]

If no cowl induction from factory, then not a COPO and a BE coded rear dated to the car would also be helpful to see. As I mentioned, it was most likely a X22 L-78 equipped car and then had a 427 transplant.

If it was the same orange SS RS car in the Super Car magazine article that Marty wrote, then Motion did the transplant. If shipping records show it was delivered to Baldwin, then good chance it is a BM car, but more history and research is needed.

The article by Marty states that the Motion demo car had factory ZL2 option as well.

IMHO, I agree with you, this car was most likely ordered as an SS L78 and then had a 427 transplant at Brahms Chevrolet in NJ. It doesn’t appear to be the Motion demo or a COPO.

[COPO]

Now with everyone showing their cards, it's conclusive it's not a Baldwin car, and most probably an L-78 car from the factory converted to 427 by Brahms Chevrolet in NJ. Also seems highly unlikely it could be the Motion demo car from the auto show given this information and the firewall picture showing no factory piercings for ZL-2 hood referenced in the magazine article.

Can you post some photos showing the lettering you referenced from Heavy's ownership? I know Heavy had a fleet of orange cars, but this one is clearly not the Motion demo car.

Regardless, certainly a very cool and rare 427 dealer car. Seems a bit more digging perhaps could uncover some interesting history.

[COPO]

This site and CRG represent the authority on COPO's and our goal is maintain our integrity. A lot of time and effort goes into verifying and maintaining our COPO Registry.

Completely agree if he submits for inclusion in the COPO Registry then he would have to prove a COPO pedigree and it's important to maintain a high bar for the registry.

Based on the documents now posted by a member, it's clear it is not a factory COPO 427 car, but instead is a dealer transplanted 427 car which is still quite cool.

[Steve Shauger]

Okay its not a COPO.
And its not BM Demo.
And its not Heavys Camaro

Good thing you pointed out that L BLU means Light Blue had never figured it out myself

Just an FYI:

BBLU= Lemans Blue
DBLU= Dusk Blue

[Steve Shauger]

Great detective work and thank you to: COPO, GOTGRUNT, KurtS and the others involved in determining the real pedigree and history!!!. Interesting that the true history of the car had been known and posted on the site in 2008. It seems weird that the owner didn't know or didn't want to know the true history.

[GotGrunt]

Here is a picture of Carleen’s car when it was still blue. I’m not sure what year it was taken but that appears to be a late 1970s dodge camper next to it.

[Kurt S]

When it was first on ebay back in 2005, the warranty void doc was with it. I've never seen a doc like that, kinda hokey if you ask me. Brahms didn't do that kind of work and why would a dealer write that up? You'd just mark the invoice. And they even had a stamp made up??
The axle was reputedly a BV, then a BM (with no date stamp). Never saw a pic of it.

[COPO]

This thread gets more and more interesting with additional pictures and documents surfacing. It seems more indepth research is needed on this X22 Camaro to understand it's true history.

[Carleen]

It was I who gave that story in 2006 to Kurt Sonen based on what they thought about the car. Im the one who posted most of the pictures of her. The picture when she is Blue is from -94.

[Carleen]

What does it say that shine tru the paint on the header panel and on the side of it

[COPO]

Carleen, what makes you think Heavy owned the car? The 1994 picture looks like the original blue color of the car and it also has the stock "SS" hood. Where as the Motion demo car later sold to Heavy looks like it was a factory orange car with a factory ZL-2 hood.

Also, since the paperwork posted for this car shows it is out of Brahms Chevrolet in NJ, seems further unlikely there is a Motion, or a Baldwin Chevrolet connection.

Too bad Dan P. isn't around to explain his thoughts on the history that he uncovered.

Regardless, seems like a very cool car and most likely a dealer transplanted 427, so certainly quite rare and desirable.

[x Baldwin Motion]

What does it say that shine tru the paint on the header panel and on the side of it

I don’t see anything on the paint except reflection of nearby vehicles. can you actually see old race livery through your existing paint ?

[Carleen]

I don’t see anything on the paint except reflection of nearby vehicles. can you actually see old race livery through your existing paint ?

Yes I can.I also have som old pictures when they have sanding down the paint.
But at this time it doesnt matter what I show or say when I have all the Gurus against me.
Dave Belk had this Camaro before me, He bought it 2005 from ebay. They talked about it at Detroit muscle and was saying that it was sponcered by Brahms Chevy. That was the info I gave Kurt S in 2006. It have a BM rear end and the date is scraped off by exhaust system.
Its an old Race car an it has been painted many times. In that Picture when it is Blue its like Le Mans Blue not Glacier.
Im not that stupid that I telling you that I have Heavys Camaro if I was not 100% sure.

[GotGrunt]

Yes I can.I also have som old pictures when they have sanding down the paint.
But at this time it doesnt matter what I show or say when I have all the Gurus against me.
Dave Belk had this Camaro before me, He bought it 2005 from ebay. They talked about it at Detroit muscle and was saying that it was sponcered by Brahms Chevy. That was the info I gave Kurt S in 2006. It have a BM rear end and the date is scraped off by exhaust system.
Its an old Race car an it has been painted many times. In that Picture when it is Blue its like Le Mans Blue not Glacier.
Im not that stupid that I telling you that I have Heavys Camaro if I was not 100% sure.

Heavy had multiple Camaros. We’re just saying that from what we’re seeing, this is not the Baldwin Motion demo car. FWIW, you haven't shown any of the pics of the old lettering. All the photos that were posted where you say you can see numbers and letters, I don’t see a thing. Also you said the firewall had 427 and M22 written, I don’t see that either. If you have better pictures then post them up so we can put this to rest.

[cook_dw]

Regardless of who you are calling an expert there some of us that would still like to see the proof of what you have. Nothing wrong with posting photos at this point regardless the outcome. One way or another the true history on the car will be unveiled.. I still would like to see how you drew all the dots and lines to come to your conclusion.

[Carleen]

When Dan Palchanes told me and I dident believe him he told me to look at the Pictures in Gray Primer
This is one of them

[Carleen]

Can you see 425

[Carleen]

Can you reed Heavys Camaro NHRA Champion?

[GotGrunt]

When Dan Palchanes told me and I dint believe him he told me to look at the Pictures in Gray Primer
This is one of them

Can you reed Heavys Camaro NHRA Champion?

I sharpened up the photos, still can’t see anything.

[GotGrunt]

Can you see 425

Sharpened this one up too, it says L-BLU RS

[cook_dw]

I'm sorry but I don't see what you are seeing.. Also I thought he always had "Car In Tow" on the spoiler.?.

[Carleen]

This

[GotGrunt]

This

I still don’t see it but let me ask you this... wouldn't the lack of ZL2 disqualify your car from being a COPO 9561? Also, what are your thoughts about the document from Brahms stating a 427 transplant dated March 1969.

[Carleen]

Brahms Chevrolet sold many engines to Racers. Heavy came across a 430 Can Am engine. They were called Short Stroke big bore 427. I think they tried to compete in standard class where Service replace Engine was allowed but it probably did not work for 1969 they raced in Modified Production

[GotGrunt]

Brahms Chevrolet sold many engines to Racers. Heavy came across a 430 Can Am engine. They were called Short Stroke big bore 427. I think they tried to compete in standard class where Service replace Engine was allowed but it probably did not work for 1969 they raced in Modified Production

Heavy did not own the car in March of 1969. 01B date on trim tag, not much time between when it completed assembly and the 427 transplant 3/21/69.

Also, the lack of ZL2?

[Steve Shauger]

I don't believe there are any X22 COPOs built in January. Yenko's early order did receive X66. Also I'd like to see documented cars with more than a piercing and provenance. This car is not in any known COPO body batches.

[x Baldwin Motion]

Yes I can.I also have som old pictures when they have sanding down the paint.
But at this time it doesnt matter what I show or say when I have all the Gurus against me.
Dave Belk had this Camaro before me, He bought it 2005 from ebay. They talked about it at Detroit muscle and was saying that it was sponcered by Brahms Chevy. That was the info I gave Kurt S in 2006. It have a BM rear end and the date is scraped off by exhaust system.
Its an old Race car an it has been painted many times. In that Picture when it is Blue its like Le Mans Blue not Glacier.
Im not that stupid that I telling you that I have Heavys Camaro if I was not 100% sure.

I don’t think anyone is calling you stupid. If your vin matches the Brahms documents then this car is obviously not the orange BM demo car which was not ever blue. I have no idea how many Camaros Brooklyn Heavy ran or where they originated from (accept the 69 BM Orange demo car with ZL2).

[Carleen]

The printing date of owners manual is later. I believe its May so I dont know. Cant comment on that

[Carleen]

The hole for ZL2 Wire is under Wiper motor

[Stefano]

This

What does the 425 signify?

[Carleen]

The only Camaros that I have seen with SYC Crayon are some early COPOs
Cant remember if its a Yenko

[Carleen]

Here is darker Primer where there was written

[useless tony]

Interesting thread.

After doing a bit of poking around on the 'net, I found a pic of Heavy, standing beside what might be this car only the car in the pic has had the rear wheel wells opened up for tire clearance (just google Brooklyn Heavy then click on images and scroll until you find it, it appears to be a picture of an old photograph ... the pic is of the passenger side of the car).

If this is the same car as the one featured in this thread, I would expect some evidence of repair in that area.

One other thought, if the car ran Corvette side pipes at one time and open headers when racing, how was the exhaust able to wear off the date on the rear end housing?

Edit: You just posted pics of the car in primer and mention the dark areas of primer are where the lettering was yet the wheel well appears to be stock (certainly not the same as the pic I mentioned finding on the internet). If these are supposed to be the same cars, then that suggests the entire quarter panel was not replaced when the wheel wells were fixed (if the entire quarter was replaced, the lettering would be gone ... no need for extra primer). That would mean there has to be evidence of the quarter panel/wheel well being returned to stock.

Please keep in mind, I am not trying to state this is not or that it is anything ... I am just trying to figure out how the pieces of the puzzle fit together.

[GotGrunt]

Interesting thread.

After doing a bit of poking around on the 'net, I found a pic of Heavy, standing beside what might be this car only the car in the pic has had the rear wheel wells opened up for tire clearance (just google Brooklyn Heavy then click on images and scroll until you find it, it appears to be a picture of an old photograph ... the pic is of the passenger side of the car).

If this is the same car as the one featured in this thread, I would expect some evidence of repair in that area.

One other thought, if the car ran Corvette side pipes at one time and open headers when racing, how was the exhaust able to wear off the date on the rear end housing?

This picture?

[useless tony]

That be it ... is this supposedly the same car this thread is about?

I added a bit to my original post since your copy/paste.

[GotGrunt]

That be it ... is this supposedly the same car this thread is about?

I added a bit to my original post since your copy/paste.

Yes, Carleen is claiming this is the car he currently owns and that it was originally a double COPO. Here is a better picture of the car from the same time period.

[DW31S]

Decklid spoiler with “Car in Tow” lettered on it. Nothing about “Champion”.

[useless tony]

That should mean the quarter panels were repaired and not replaced so there has to be evidence of the repair.

[Carleen]

Here

[Carleen]

The pictures that you posting are from -73

[COPO]

Wow, race car and tow rig are killer.

[Carleen]

Here are som earlier pictures but I dont have any on the back of the spoiler
Here it have Heavys Camaro on the front Fender And Brooklyn Wild pumpkin on the doors

[Carleen]

x

[cook_dw]

Do you not have photos of the quarter, fenders etc before primer that show the lettering you are seeing? And FYI that hole is not the location for the cowl induction harness. It’s above the fuse block. Here’s Doug Perrys Yenko vin 579xxx for reference..

[DW31S]

Anybody know anything about this one?

[x Baldwin Motion]

That be it ... is this supposedly the same car this thread is about?

I added a bit to my original post since your copy/paste.

The orange BM demo car was NEVER blue, that fact has already been confirmed by Marty. I have no info on the Brahms car or any other Brooklyn Heavy Camaro .

[x Baldwin Motion]

Anybody know anything about this one?
Heavy

[Copo_Cartel]

This

Generally if you saw 3 consecutive numbers on the firewall ....usually it was to designate a job number (build)

[R68GTO]

Generally if you saw 3 consecutive numbers on the firewall ....usually it was to designate a job number (build)

I think Bentley's X11 small block (originally) Ratty Rat Day 2 car had "427" on the firewall - as Doug noted, likely the job number.

[Alisters]

Joel would never say he didn’t use the copo program, from what Iv always read in multiple articles was he didn’t RECALL using any copos ,,,recall and didn’t two different statements , so there is possibility !

[Lee Stewart]

Joel would never say he didn’t use the copo program, from what Iv always read in multiple articles was he didn’t RECALL using any copos ,,,recall and didn’t two different statements , so there is possibility !

Joel told me personally one night when we were in his shop with Judy that he was not aware there was a COPO program for 1969 Camaros. That's why all of his 1969 427 Camaros are Super Sports. He ordered them with the L78 then changed the short block for an L72.

Motion was in Baldwin, I lived in Lynbrook, just a couple of towns away. He worked on my 1967 Corvette and my 1969 Camaro SS.

[COPO]

He said the same thing when he attended SCR many years ago. The L-78 short block take outs were sold post transplant through the Baldwin parts dept.

[Mr70]

I have a tape recording somewhere the night Joel talked to us about this @ the Supercar Reunion in Collinsville back in Aug. 2003.He was very well received by all,and stated he did not know about the COPO program back then,there was a hush in the crowd afterwards. https://www.yenko.net/reunion/2003reunion.htm

[big gear head]

Wow, it looks like the 2003 reunion was awesome! I wish we could get that kind of turn out now. I believe age has caught up to most of the owners and they don't want to travel with their cars anymore.

[Charley Lillard]

Joel told me personally one night when we were in his shop with Judy that he was not aware there was a COPO program for 1969 Camaros. That's why all of his 1969 427 Camaros are Super Sports. He ordered them with the L78 then changed the short block for an L72.

Motion was in Baldwin, I lived in Lynbrook, just a couple of towns away. He worked on my 1967 Corvette and my 1969 Camaro SS.
So apparently Jack Douglass knew about the program but didn't tell Joel.

[olredalert]

----Jacks Dad was a high up executive at GM. When he retired he moved to Hinsdale and opened Jack Douglass Chevrolet. Upon his fathers passing Jsck stepped in. He was the youngest owner of any GM dealer at that time. Eventually When Billy Jacobs Dad passed he also took over the Chevy dealership in Joliet Il., and he was younger than Jack was at that point so Jack lost that dubious accolade. It makes sense that Jack would hear about the COPO program as his family was so connected to GM.....Bill S

[rts]

So apparently Jack Douglass knew about the program but didn't tell Joel.

How about the several ordered copos from Baldwin Chevy
No one from Baldwin Chevy talked Joel either??

[Stefano]

So apparently Jack Douglass knew about the program but didn't tell Joel.

Jack knew about the COPO fleet program but found out about the L72 Performance COPO by happenstance, when he found a dealer shipper/invoice in one of the Canonsburg Yenko Camaros.

[Stefano]

For what it’s worth, I spoke to Joel about Motion COPOs many years ago and he did not recall using the program for any of his “builds”. I let him know that there was a photo in a magazine of a Dark colored 1969 Camaro, in his shop that seemed to look like a COPO L72, don’t recall the magazine. He conceded that he may have tuned it or worked on it or others.

[GotGrunt]

For what it’s worth, I spoke to Joel about Motion COPOs many years ago and he did not recall using the program for any of his “builds”. I let him know that there was a photo in a magazine of a Dark colored 1969 Camaro, in his shop that seemed to look like a COPO L72, don’t recall the magazine. He conceded that he may have tuned it or worked on it or others.

Hi Performance CARS, November 1969.

Hone-O-Drive installation article with the Motion COPO. Article says owner Marc Cohen drove the 4.56 geared car back to his home in Ohio from New York, and referred to it as a Phase III car. Doesn't really say if it was a Baldwin purchased car or if he brought it in to be Phase III tuned.

[Alisters]

I call hog wash Marty and Joel never new about the copo program 🤷*♂️ ! Two guys that we’re deeply involved in the muscle car world as Joel was direct contact with Baldwin Chevrolet,and it never got mentioned ya right lol plse

[iluv69s]

I call hog wash Marty and Joel never new about the copo program ��*♂️ ! Two guys that we’re deeply involved in the muscle car world as Joel was direct contact with Baldwin Chevrolet,and it never got mentioned ya right lol plse



Seeing that there are known 69 COPOs sold through Baldwin Chevrolet, it is tough to believe that no one at Motion knew about this program.


I suspect Joel made more on a 427 conversion as opposed to if he just tuned/motionized and flipped COPO cars. May not have been advantageous back then to Motion Performance for publicize the COPO program, even if they found out about it.

[luzl78]

joel had a personal relationship with zora duntov.

[olredalert]

----So Joels own words are not good enough? Also,,,I worked for Jack D and I'm sure he probably never heard of Motion or Joel. Jack was somewhat of a gear head but he cared a lot more about making money. He once told me that when a friend came to him to by a car he didn't give them a deal, he charged them over the sticker price. He said that they could afford it!....Bill S

[smallblockhero]

maybe theres a middle ground on that statement from Joel... he was probably vague in his response.

The reality of it was Joel and the gang didnt know about the COPO 427 program early enough to get into it for their cars.. And by the time they did , it probably didnt matter anyway because they were using the L-88 (not L-72) for most of their customers anyway. In the long run it may have also been cheaper for them to use an over the counter L-88 instead of starting with a COPO built car anyway.

at least thats what my thoughts were on Joels statement. To believe he hadnt heard about the program AT ALL is nonsensical especially if marty put one in his magazine.

[iluv69s]

----So Joels own words are not good enough? Also,,,I worked for Jack D and I'm sure he probably never heard of Motion or Joel. Jack was somewhat of a gear head but he cared a lot more about making money. He once told me that when a friend came to him to by a car he didn't give them a deal, he charged them over the sticker price. He said that they could afford it!....Bill S

Unfortunately, in my short experiences speaking and dealing with Joel… for me NO.

[Tracker1]

I call hog wash Marty and Joel never new about the copo program 🤷*♂️ ! Two guys that we’re deeply involved in the muscle car world as Joel was direct contact with Baldwin Chevrolet,and it never got mentioned ya right lol plse

Correct.

[Motion Performance]

Joel and I discussed this a few times and from my recollection, back then he was unaware of the COPO program. I see no reason for him to lie about it. In fact, most people hate to ever admit ignorance on any subject.

I have my thoughts as to why this might be the case but they are just a guess and I’m trying to stick to facts for this post.

I can say there were a number of likely COPOs that Motion worked on, based on the docs. That was very interesting.

-Kasey