'69 Camaro RS/SS IPC Convertible Project Car, #s 350, Great Options

[scuncio]

Power windows, blue light stereo, etc - pretty well optioned car here.

The story is, this car was on its way to the paint shop when it was stuffed in the rear. Looks fixable. The question is - is it worth the $18k? I'm guessing market value is probably pretty close to that.

Link to 1969 Camaro IPC Convertible auction (https://ebay.to/2SlK7Fk)

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/k9sAAOSw93xeOctj/s-l1600.jpg

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/K2AAAOSwLDBeOcsa/s-l500.jpg

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/HB0AAOSw3vpeOcu4/s-l1600.jpg

[bergy]

05C on TT. I thought that they stopped at 05A

[William]

The trim tag date is when Fisher built the body and only a general indicator of final assembly date. Long-winded discussion here:

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=18209.0

Too bad. That's a hard hit and judging by the door gaps, chassis is bent.

[MosportGreen66]

Tilt column, gauges/console, deluxe interior... she's got options!

[x44d80]

At least the seller is honest about the bent rear frame rails.

[resto4u]

price is too high for the damage. You will buy a nice one for less than to fix this one. 10-12k would be fair. collision and restoration work.

[70 copo]

The trim tag date is when Fisher built the body and only a general indicator of final assembly date. Long-winded discussion here:

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=18209.0

Too bad. That's a hard hit and judging by the door gaps, chassis is bent.

Did you get the VIN yet?

Assuming that Z-11 production really ended in the 0-5A-05-B timeframe I would lean towards the idea of a key punch error on the IBM card.

Assuming the VIN corresponds to 05-C then current data based production assumptions may need a second look.

[bergy]

Check DB, but I believe that particular body number is pretty high for early/mid May build. I know that body numbers are assigned at data entry, but isn't that one kinda high for actual 05C build?

[William]

Way high. Other dealer orders in that range have 05E/06A tag dates and were final-assembled May 29-June 9.

Had a list price approaching $5000, a ton back in the day. Maybe a Zone car or ordered for a celebrity.

Do not have VIN.

[70 copo]

I just got off the phone with the production supervisor who worked the Chevrolet cycle bank in 1969 This guy is in his 80's and still sharp as a tack. He offered some helpful commentary on this topic.

Enjoy! I find asking these questions and the answers to be a refreshing dose of common sense.:beers:

"Don't over think this situation. The punch cards were cards created by key punchers in advance, that's true and there could be small errors here and there but in those days Fisher was a subcontractor to Chevrolet and as such Chevrolet was constantly looking to back charge Fisher for anything that did not pass muster at the 72 hour planning meeting. On the date issue the dates were not that fluid the usual date was part of Fisher's internal tracking system for the coach build so being incorrect as a part of doing business would cause havoc on both sides of the plant, so I just do not see that happening"

"When the Fisher coach arrived from Fisher Body at the Chevrolet cycle bank that is when we started calling it a body. The console operator at receipt inspection would first enter the production sequence number into the computer, while the console operator is entering the production sequence number and the body number off the body plate the computer then adjusted the RPO listing and parts needed for the build that was already entered in the mainframe at the conclusion of the 72 hour planning meeting when the build of the car was given the go-a-head. The arriving bodies were then simultaneously assigned and then stamped with the federally mandated Vehicle Identification Number “VIN” in Hidden areas on the body. The VIN information was then added to the build sequence number and the body number as an additional data field for the RPO content broadcast. There had to be computer agreement or the body would be rejected on the spot and Fisher would be on the carpet until resolved. You see major errors caught by Chevrolet would have the potential to cost Fisher big as a charge back so any build deviation was approved in advance at the 72 hour planning meeting, and was therefore part of regular production and not considered a deviation to General Motors".

[bergy]

Not sure that the supervisor is talking about body numbers and vin numbers Phil. At St Louis I recall those being assigned sequentially by the computer at CO and plant respectively. William would see more sequencing errors (body number too late for vin) if human error.

[70 copo]

Not sure that the supervisor is talking about body numbers and vin numbers Phil. At St Louis I recall those being assigned sequentially by the computer at CO and plant respectively. William would see more sequencing errors (body number too late for vin) if human error.

To be sure he is talking about exactly what is under discussion here.

Here is the take away- and this logic and order was confirmed with James Seim who also was a manager at St. Louis in 1968 before returning to Norwood in 1969.

VIN numbers typically fall in close during regular production and are therefore useful for tracking today.

Coach Data from the Fisher body plate also fall in close for production and are also useful for tracking today.

The Ordering information from the dealer created a build configuration and a build window for the order.

Neither of these three however individually determined the build order of the vehicle.

Once the parts were forecast as available the build was scheduled. The build information was finalized into the mainframe at the conclusion of the 72 hour advance planning meeting.

The arrival of the body at the Chevrolet Body bank was therefore confirmatory meaning Fisher data already in the mainframe was confirmed on arrival- Body number, and RPO content. Once the hidden VIN was applied the body was then locked in sequence for final assembly and the feeder lines then received the RPO sequencing information.

The only number that mattered to Chevrolet after the body was released was the assembly sequence number which started at 1 and progressed to 999 every day. Reliant upon the accuracy of the final sequencing was yet other sub computer programs such as ALPACA which adjusted element efficiency by balancing RPO content via assembly sequencing.

Taking a step back the main factor that determined the build approval for Fisher and the coach was the 72 hour forecast meeting that hinged upon the external parts availability forecast that was an entirely separate computer program to both divisions at Norwood.

I have been back and fourth on this issue and beat it to death to be sure it was factual before I captured it in the Book Echoes of Norwood.

[70 copo]

In case this has been missed previously: Observe the delta between the VIN on these cars when compared to the assembly sequence.

There is a 103 unit difference in sequence and a 62 unit difference in VIN.

[bergy]

phil - we’re kind of getting in the weeds here. Please address the vehicle body number issue. Your indication previously was that there are errors in body numbers. Not sure where sequence numbers were relevant to the body number/vin discussion.

[70 copo]

phil - we’re kind of getting in the weeds here. Please address the vehicle body number issue. Your indication previously was that there are errors in body numbers. Not sure where sequence numbers were relevant to the body number/vin discussion.

Ok this got started here back on page 1 In reply to William:


Did you get the VIN yet?

Assuming that Z-11 production really ended in the 0-5A-05-B timeframe I would lean towards the idea of a key punch error on the IBM card.

Assuming the VIN corresponds to 05-C then current data based production assumptions may need a second look.



I was acting on the assumption that William may be on to something I replied to him in quotation and for what ever reason he did not reply to me directly.

So in order to further the discussion I called one of the guys I interviewed for the book and asked him for an opinion as to what could be afoot here with this specific car. He was completely consistent in telling me again what occurred for the purposes of production scheduling with respect the the nature of this thread, which is an 05-C Z-11 and opinions as to how and why this car was built with the body plate "as is".

He offered his opinion which I posted. You replied somewhat contesting the some of the factual content of what I posted concerning the phone call:

Not sure that the supervisor is talking about body numbers and vin numbers Phil. At St Louis I recall those being assigned sequentially by the computer at CO and plant respectively. William would see more sequencing errors (body number too late for vin) if human error.

I replied twice to you in order to adequately service your reply to me. If we are in the weeds here I do regret my inability to boil down technical concepts. Please let me know if any additional information is needed and I will be happy to assist the forum in understanding how this car was very likely built back in 1969.

[70 copo]

Ok so Key punch error How could this happen?

Each unit had multiple IBM Data cards including a card for the imprinting of the body plate. Each is manually punched and automatically collated by the machine.

[70 copo]

The Process is completed by the Graphitype Machine where the now punched IBM cards are fed into a tower where they are scanned and then converted in to typeset and then a tractor feeder sends one body plate at a time to be auto embossed.

[70 copo]

The body Plate (Trim Tag) is only as accurate as the punch made on the IBM card.

[bergy]

Ugh - maybe I should speak directly to the supervisor you are speaking to and compare notes Phil. The key punch room was directly down the main hallway from plant engineering at St Louis. As students, we were actually assigned in there for work section experience. I’m not sure what error he is referring to on this TT.

[70 copo]

The purpose for the call was concerning the body plate error/human error theory. He told me not to over think it

In summary He thought the error was possible but not normal.

How about a key puncher lady? Last time I spoke to them there were two them that were still pretty sharp. If they will speak to you they will tell you about punching IBM cards 8-10 hours a day non-stop.:beers:

Do you have a copy of Echoes Yet?

[bergy]

LOL - they (we) took breaks :-) 15 minutes in the morning and afternoon plus 30 minute lunch & bathroom breaks in between. They worked hard though - tedious work. Good people. I'd love to know the VIN of the subject IPC. I'll bet that William is correct and it was an expedited order right at the end of IPC production.

It was the supervisor that I was interested in speaking to. We probably knew the same people. Cliff Vaughn was the PM when I was there. It's such a small world. A guy came up to me at Cars on 5th last Saturday & offered me an original Tonawanda valve cover sticker. I asked him where he got it - turns out that he was superintendent of production at the Tonawanda motor plant when I was superintendent at the foundry. I didn't recognize him until we introduced ourselves! Kinda like going back to a high school reunion after 40 years - who are these people?!

[70 copo]

Yea LOL! Strange things happened at Norwood. This is a sample from the Book I am working on now. Yes in the early 80's guys were working the line in Toga's

Who are these people? :beers:

I have and continue to do my best to meet them and learn the human side of how our cars were built. In a word-Fascinating!

[Kurt S]

Sorry, this is making a mountain out of nothing. I see no errors.
The body # looks fine for that week, a little high but nothing notable.
VIN is 9N6480xx. Looks fine too.
I agree with Bill, it was a late Z11 order that was prioritized. Be interesting to know if it was a normal customer or someone with contacts. We'll never know.

I ordered a car once and the order was refused - too late in the year to build it. Talked to my plant scheduler and he call the assy plant and the order was accepted.

[Jonesy]

So would this be the latest 69 Pace Car built???

[70 copo]

Sorry, this is making a mountain out of nothing. I see no errors.
The body # looks fine for that week, a little high but nothing notable.
VIN is 9N6480xx. Looks fine too.
I agree with Bill, it was a late Z11 order that was prioritized. Be interesting to know if it was a normal customer or someone with contacts. We'll never know.

I ordered a car once and the order was refused - too late in the year to build it. Talked to my plant scheduler and he call the assy plant and the order was accepted.

Excellent! Now that's what I call progress.

Looks like the hobby will now acknowledge 05-C as the end point for the Z-11.:beers:

[Kurt S]

It's clearly an outlier in the data.

[bergy]

Do you have access to the known Pace Car VINs Kurt? If so, is this the last one?

[70 copo]

It's clearly an outlier in the data.

Agreed 100%:beers:

[RSSSfan]

Yea LOL! Strange things happened at Norwood. This is a sample from the Book I am working on now. Yes in the early 80's guys were working the line in Toga's

Who are these people? :beers:

I have and continue to do my best to meet them and learn the human side of how our cars were built. In a word-Fascinating!


HaHa, did the same kind of thing go on at Van Nuys? If so, that might explain how my 69 ended up with a Pontiac Firebird deluxe seat bottom and jack instruction sticker! :)

[Kurt S]

Yes, this is the last known pacer VIN.
(I know of a fake Z11 tag on a later VIN - lots of issues with that car)

[70 copo]

So the VIN looks to line up pretty well with an O5-C build then?

[bergy]

yes - other cars near 9N6480XX including 9N648076 COPO are 05C

[Jonesy]

It was a no sale at $18,000. If someone would have bid, they would have owned it.
I was slightly tempted but I think thats too much with the damage.

[COPO]

It was a no sale at $18,000. If someone would have bid, they would have owned it.
I was slightly tempted but I think thats too much with the damage.

Maybe worth it for last '69 IPC.

[southernfriedcj]

Maybe worth it for last '69 IPC.

I have never gotten the fascination with the "first" or "last" thing.

Bragging rights at the car show?

It does not add value to me.

That being said, if the subject car was a big block #'s matching fully loaded car in the condition I might go high teens on it.

For a small block automatic? Restore with the original drivetrain and my number would be low 40's. For the pile in the ad, I wouldn't take it for free if I was required to restore it as part of the deal.

[RSSSfan]

That car is pretty tweaked up. The convertible top frame won't even unfold all the way when latched on the passenger side. Better have a good unibody guy available to get it right again!

[William]

Maybe worth it for last '69 IPC.

Wasn't the last.

The latest body tag date at Van Nuys was 05A but many of those [L5301xx-L531163] sat in limbo due to the 52 day UAW strike. There were several Z11s in that group; we have data on two. Latest known Z11 was built on or about June 23, 1969.

[ZLP955]

Ok, so it is the last known Norwood Pacer VIN built, not the last known Pacer VIN built?