Fender markings

[ALLZS]

this is marked on my lower fender extension on a 69 Camaro what does it mean

[Mr70]

Rallye Green?

[ALLZS]

that's what I thought the only problem is this is a original paint cortez silver car

[Lynn]

Is it a Norwood car?

If so, I would suggest you contact Phil Boris (sp???) on this site. "70 copo". He has some contacts with some of the Norwood employees who are still around. One of them might remember something like this.

I am almost certain I have seen similar markings on the inner side of fender extensions, but they were marked "copo". I am guessing it was a heads up to someone down the line that would see the car from the underside. Can't imagine what RG stood for. I have seen color call outs in crayon or grease pencil on firewalls (usually UNDER the black out), but not on fender extensions.

[70 copo]

Lynn,

We all gravitate to the obvious. It looks to the eye at first as a proper "RG"

In reality once that lower valance section was assembled it became destined for placement on its unit, and as some of you know from reading the book I wrote on Norwood - the units were assembled in build sequence because after computer lock was achieved that is how all the feeder line conveyors matched all the component parts for a specific car and marking these parts was a non standardized method used by the workers to minimize rework in AGR later.

Now we are not seeing a neat and proper RG, but a very fast and sloppy 126

126=unit build order 126 for the day which means this car was built for a match up with the valance over on the chassis side just past body drop on first shift (days) very likely between 9-and 9:30 AM.

[ALLZS]

it is a norwood car I have seen some talk about seeing the same letters on rally sport option cars it is a 4 week of sept of 68 build

[William]

Or it could be the fender piercing code on the Body Broadcast Copy.

[70 copo]

Or it could be the fender piercing code on the Body Broadcast Copy.


Have any Build sheets where RG is used to designate the fender piercing?

[70 copo]

I am curious as to why you think RG would designate fender piercing on a completely separate sub assembly. Granted all components did end up for final "dog house" assembly on the second floor above body drop.

[William]

For the same reason COPOs have 427 written there-no emblem.

Not certain of what piercing entailed. If it is just fender script and engine ID there would be 12 codes. Z/28 may have been done differently as they have the same code [YA] as COPOs.

[70 copo]

For the same reason COPOs have 427 written there-no emblem.

Not certain of what piercing entailed. If it is just fender script and engine ID there would be 12 codes. Z/28 may have been done differently as they have the same code [YA] as COPOs.

Fair enough. The lower extensions fit everything-ergo my question.

[firstgenaddict]

Is your car a RS/Z


The G is the single letter engine code for the 302 off of the Body Broadcast. And for some reason is on the front fender extension to indicatye piercing and the R is for the Rally sport emblem.

Style Trim Z28's I have seen have G M.

If I am not mistaken all of the CUI call out numbers use the same hole pattern so there would not be a need for indication of different numeral designations- (396 - 350 - 250 - 327 - 307), except the Z28 (Z28 emblem) and the COPO (nothing).

[70 copo]

Is your car a RS/Z


The G is the single letter engine code for the 302 off of the Body Broadcast. And for some reason is on the front fender extension to indicatye piercing and the R is for the Rally sport emblem.

Style Trim Z28's I have seen have G M.

If I am not mistaken all of the CUI call out numbers use the same hole pattern so there would not be a need for indication of different numeral designations- (396 - 350 - 250 - 327 - 307), except the Z28 (Z28 emblem) and the COPO (nothing).

Production flow:

The fenders were unloaded and pierced in sheet metal then base coated and painted.

The extensions require only base coat and paint and then are oven dried and go directly to a feeder line.

The hood, Fenders, upper and lower valances, core support follow similar paths where the whole batch meets up together for the first time on the second floor. Directly below is the long line where body drop happens and that conveyor ends and front sheet metal assembly starts.


Given:

There is 20 feet between body drop and sheet metal drop on the final line and there is very, very, little time to do anything extra.

At sheet metal several sub assembly's are station built in advance and just in time to match the unit configuration.

One of these sub assemblies is the lower valance and the extensions.

The rest of the dog house is tied together on a jig using the core support as a main structure.

The lower valance along with the extensions now a sub assembly was bolted to the doghouse as a unit.


So then: For "Rally Sport and 302" (RG) to be relevant to a worker then the following would have to be in practice:

Workers were assembling to a large degree using option and trim combination acting in "expert based" assembly practices.
.
Workers built doghouse matches based upon trim and configuration recognition.

Agree or Disagree?

[Lynn]

I am no expert on the assembly process. Sure looks like "RG" to me.

I have to REALLY use a lot of imagination to get "126' out of that. Not saying it isn't possible. Doesn't seem plausible.

Sometimes, we may have to admit we don't know why something was marked as it was.

[70 copo]

I am no expert on the assembly process. Sure looks like "RG" to me.

I have to REALLY use a lot of imagination to get "126' out of that. Not saying it isn't possible. Doesn't seem plausible.

Sometimes, we may have to admit we don't know why something was marked as it was.

Lynn,

I have to thank you for inviting me and the men of Norwood to the thread:

Is it a Norwood car?

If so, I would suggest you contact Phil Boris (sp???) on this site. "70 copo". He has some contacts with some of the Norwood employees who are still around. One of them might remember something like this.

The acceptance of knowledge is a choice. Those who decline such knowledge simply will decide "not to know".

[Jonesy]

I would agree that what I am seeing is RG.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

I think you are forcing a square peg into a round hole with the '126' theory, the 'RG' on a CSilver car is a factory screw up.....

[70 copo]

I think you are forcing a square peg into a round hole with the '126' theory, the 'RG' on a CSilver car is a factory screw up.....

Marlin,

It takes much more faith to call it RG when there is zero explanation to be made on one side of the argument other than the tired and frankly weak allegation of a “factory screw up”

So the same good folks that consistently argue against build sequence production pop up here in opposition once again.

[ALLZS]

the car is a rs/z28

[70 copo]

the car is a rs/z28

Great! I am not going to participate further in the thread- but for what it is worth you have a credible and supported explanation.

Good luck with your car!

[ZLP955]

03d rs/z:

[Billohio]

My x33 non RS Z

[Lynn]

Frankly, I know nothing about "build sequence production" vs whatever else kind of production is being touted; and I really don't care to get sucked into whatever argument or ongoing debate there might be.

Clearly, we now have three fender extensions with markings that certainly don't APPEAR to be numerical. I don't think you can interpret that 2nd one as 612 or Bill's as 6111. That certainly does NOT in any way indicate that there wasn't build sequence production." Just means that for some reason a worker put some code under there.

All three have a G, so that would lead credence to the theory that it had something to do with emblem choice, as all three are Z/28 cars. Damn, both my fender extensions had small creases, and i replaced them both when I painted the car (also a Norwood Z/28). Makes me wish I had looked at them very closely before getting rid of them. They were original to the car. The fact that several have surfaced with "COPO" scrawled on the inside also supports that theory (no front emblem).

The R also makes sense as Rally Sport, as that RS emblem is virtually impossible to install once the front clip is on the car, as is the Camaro emblem.

So, what in the world would the "M" be there for on Bill's car?

[Lynn]

Doesn't Lloyd (Edgemontvillage) have a survivor RS 69 Z?

How about taking a look?

[m22mike]

One 69 COPO I restored had ...."427M."...on the extension, picture has been posted before. Still can't figure out the meaning of the M.
And I agree with the 126 theory JMO

Mike
Just found this

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=135371&highlight=427M+fender+extension

[X66 714]

This is a late 1969 X33 fender...Joe

[Steve Shauger]

So with the data we have G = Z28 R = Rally Sport and M= Style trim without/RS


Obviously this is a very small sampling and much more data is needed so lets see where the data points take us. So far we only have data for COPO and Z28 .


We should set up a spreadsheet and include SS396, SS350, base model. Or how about COPO, x11, x22,x33,x44,x55,x66,x77 . Just a thought so the data is organized....

[Charley Lillard]

Pics I took of the low mile RS Zl1

[70 copo]

Called another Retiree this morning. His read was as follows. Sequencing # was used but was dependent on who was working the station. His recollection was under the upper valance for the number.

His take on what he is seeing here:

RG= Rally Group

GM= General Match

427M = Match to 427 doghouse assembly.

Likely also 350/396M and RG used there as applicable as well.

[Kurt S]

The piercing codes either start with X or Y, e.g. XC.
While the COPO cars often have 427 in this location, I don't recall seeing a piercing code here, fwiw.
I have seen three letters written here, G, M, and R (and 427).
The G was a Z28. M has been non-RS. R has been RS. G & M have been exclusive of each other. Don't have any notes on SS cars.

(I hate when I miss that there's a second page of posts!)

[William]

Box 104 on the BBC is for the fender emblem.

Very limited data indicates C for 307, E for 396, F for 350, G for Z/28, H for 327. Wonder why COPOs had 427 written there as they would have the same piercing and no engine ID emblem as the base 230" six cylinder.

Also, COPOs and Z/28s [non RS] have the same YA piercing code. Non HP cars are XA.

The scribbling on the extension may be tribal knowledge.

[X66 714]

Here's another. This was a true SS with style trim w/o R/S. Fender run number 37. I don't know the engine size. Fender is damaged there...Joe

[ZLP955]

Couple more examples:

[m22mike]

The top one is mine from a Copo m21, 721 I restored
Mike

[ZLP955]

From this photo in the CRG assembly process article, the buck-built front end was assembled with much of the grille components and headlights, so the build configuration including paint color, any striping, std or RS grille and headlights and hood style would be significant during that sub-assembly, as well as the fender piercing already discussed.
The ident number can be seen on the driver side of the firewall, so a corresponding number on the front end seems logical.
http://www.camaros.org/images/assembly/assembly-clip.jpg
Image reposted from the CRG site.

[ZLP955]

The top one is mine from a Copo m21, 721 I restored
Mike
Thanks Mike, I saved those pictures a while ago but lost my notes on their source. Was it a non-RS car, and if so, did it have style trim?

[cook_dw]

FYI this is not just on 69’s. Have a few 68’s with R6. I originally thought it was for 396 RS but that is out the window.

If no one else has a spreadsheet going I’ll look for mine in the am.

[m22mike]

Thanks Mike, I saved those pictures a while ago but lost my notes on their source. Was it a non-RS car, and if so, did it have style trim?

Yes, non RS and Z21 trim.
I miss typed in my other post. 721, but ment. Z21

[cook_dw]

My memory is failing me. It’s 6S and this was from a 68 SS/RS 396 convertible.

[Kurt S]

Box 104 on the BBC is for the fender emblem.

Very limited data indicates C for 307, E for 396, F for 350, G for Z/28, H for 327.
Thanks Bill! I got caught up in looking for fender extension pictures that I forgot this.
C - 307/327
D - L22 L6
E - 396
F - 350
G - Z28
H - 327 (no idea why this car isn't C)

And:
M - Z21
R - RS/Z22

And there's your 69 decoding ring. ;)

[Kurt S]

68 - I have a bunch of these emblem codes and they are numbers in 68. But 6 isn't on my list!

[X66 714]

68 - I have a bunch of these emblem codes and they are numbers in 68. But 6 isn't on my list!
Kurt
I couldn't make out the one I posted. Looks like it says 3M. Thoughts?...Joe

[cook_dw]

3 M is correct Joe. Meaning that is what I am seeing.


To help with collecting data can we add back to the already posted data the car along with its build date and NOR or LOS?

[X66 714]

It's just a loose fender & extension so I don't know what plant...just the week. 37th week could be sept 68 or 69...Joe

[70 copo]

Thanks Bill! I got caught up in looking for fender extension pictures that I forgot this.
C - 307/327
D - L22 L6
E - 396
F - 350
G - Z28
H - 327 (no idea why this car isn't C)

And:
M - Z21
R - RS/Z22

And there's your 69 decoding ring. ;)


Kurt,

I am posting this for the production superintendent. A man in his mid 80's so I am asking you to be nice and reply or simply ignore it for the benefit of the others watching the thread.

1. The Photo posted there is LOS Not Norwood. I thought the subject was about a fender extension marking from Norwood?

2. Los was TOWVEYOR. Mostly different assembly method used at the two plants.

3. What is the accuracy of the control group? Are all of the images being shown verified as coming from Norwood?

4. Sequencing was to be used. Marks were applied to insure a valance assembly made it to the correct doghouse.

5. ARO's were frequently in SMFA. Some these personnel were barely literate, they knew numbers but had poor reading skills. The more ARO's assigned to an area the more sequencing markings would assist them.

(ARO) Absentee Replacement Operator, (SMFA) Sheet Metal Final Assembly

6. The assumption that any operator, supervisor, or anyone else for that matter had the additional time to create a complex series of abbreviations duplicated from a manifest block to sub control assembly processes is patently absurd as that would require a huge and costly human capital training program to insure compliance and would not be strictly limited to a few markings on a sheet metal panel here or there.

[cook_dw]

Here is what I have currently. Still have to go through all my photos as I know I have more data points.

[Steve Shauger]

Darrell (Cook DW) , thanks for adding a spreadsheet. As we obtain more data points it may lead us to definitive conclusion....

[bbbenny]

I checked my 69 L-78 camaro, surviver car. One side has a 6 on the other side has a 9 on it. On the fender ext. Also I checked my body broadcast sheet, on my 69 COPO camaro. Box 103 fender piercing A.. . Just passing on info on this topic. BBBenny

[Kurt S]

Phil,
Why is that directed to me??
I have no idea what photo. I posted no photos. I just analyzed data and created a theory with input from others. The data I used was NOR.

The data is consistent and mostly fits the theory. Better than 126.
Complex system? Seems pretty basic to me.
1 digit for emblem, 1 digit for Z21/Z22.

3 in 67/68 was for a 327 emblem.
Benny - box 103 should be YA. The Y is either light or missing.

[70 copo]

Phil,
Why is that directed to me??
I have no idea what photo. I posted no photos. I just analyzed data and created a theory with input from others. The data I used was NOR.

The data is consistent and mostly fits the theory. Better than 126.
Complex system? Seems pretty basic to me.
1 digit for emblem, 1 digit for Z21/Z22.

3 in 67/68 was for a 327 emblem.
Benny - box 103 should be YA. The Y is either light or missing.

Kurt,

I am out of this thread as far as direct commentary goes due to the error made pertaining to the 126 determination which was quickly made by a retiree for which I agreed in my post based upon the single initial example presented.

I am told the Photo comment was related to post 35.

Two of the three retirees are satisfied as to the current thread content and direction. If the production superintendent has any additional comments to share I will post as I receive information from him. Yes he selected your post to reply to as a quote.

That's about it.

[Steve Shauger]

I think the data points collected so far correlate with the broadcast coding information. I'm encouraged, and want to keep the data and dialogue open and hope we can maintain a respectful and open conversation. Lets the hope the data points provide the information needed to come to a definitve conclusion.



I appreciate everyone's input, and ask we all keep an open mind. Hopefully we will all learn something.

[ZLP955]

For the record, post 35 was by me. While it does show assembly at Van Nuys, the report text relating to front sheetmetal installation says:
Both plants used similar processes for front sheet metal installation, although it was done in different locations. At Van Nuys, this was done on the Trim Line with the body in an overhead carrier. At Norwood, this was done on the Final Line after body drop.
At the time of posting, I wondered if the fender extension markings may have been relevant to the build details of the front end, perhaps relating to grille/headlight type, etc. and pertaining to the general process, rather than the location in which it was done.
Perhaps posting that was unnecessary, in which case please disregard and focus positively on gathering more data points.

[firstgenaddict]

One 69 COPO I restored had ...."427M."...on the extension, picture has been posted before. Still can't figure out the meaning of the M.
And I agree with the 126 theory JMO

Mike
Just found this

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=135371&highlight=427M+fender+extension

Was it a style trim car? X11?
if so that explains the M. piercing the extension for the two screws unique to the wheel opening moldings.

FWIW The middle Yellow Fender Extension with only 427 and no additional Alpha code is Dave Beem's X66 YENKO (Bill Hunter car) so no fender extension piercings, no CUI call outs.
Which falls in line with the theory... 427 with M is style trim with R is Rallysport.

[ban617]

That’s pretty interesting that they coded the fender extensions .. Have any been observed on the VanNuys cars ?

[bbbentley]

For the record:
1969 Camaro, 12B Norwood SS/RS396 extension marked R6

[L78 Fred]

Steve Shauger- would you happen to know what was on the fender extensions of your former SS/RS L78 Pace Car?
I have my original front clip still intact and I could not make sense of it last time I looked at it a year ago- with this data I will re visit and post the characters listed as with another SS/RS L48 Pace car 100 vins later- both 04C cars from Norwood

[JKZ27]

1969 RS/SS 350 12B Norwood
Left fender appears as 3R.

John

[cook_dw]

Here's a new one. Still going through old photos when time allows. From my old 69 10E of 69. 307 X11 with A/C

Appears to be O A M but I can't confirm as the extension is now gone.