69 Camaro X22

[chris slawski]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro/293552700167

[RSSSfan]

Looks like some "$hit Happened" to this one. :)

[Kurt S]

VIN is 124379N567333 (mistyped in the ad as 124679N567333)
Trim tag is repro. Go figure with those colors.....

[Lynn]

That is one rusty vin plate.

Can't be a repro tag Kurt; ad says "real deal X22 car."

[chris slawski]

VIN is 124379N567333 (mistyped in the ad as 124679N567333)
Trim tag is repro. Go figure with those colors.....

For the novice what are clues for a repo trim tag?

[x44d80]

This should be the sticker on the dash.

[X66 714]

For the novice what are clues for a repo trim tag?

That's something they don't discuss...Joe

[L78M22Rag]

Who would repop a trim tag for frost green? I’m no expert, but that trim tag looks legit to me. The rivots look like they’ve been removed and reinstalled because they’re no longer filled. With that much rust on the car, that could have deteriorated like that on its own?

[chris slawski]

Who would repop a trim tag for frost green? I’m no expert, but that trim tag looks legit to me. The rivots look like they’ve been removed and reinstalled because they’re no longer filled. With that much rust on the car, that could have deteriorated like that on its own?

So how is Kurt saying repop?

[scuncio]

Kurt may have a record of this car wearing a different tag sometime in its past.

[the427king]

If it wasnt for frost green cars ,there would be hardly any original motor/ survivor cars LOL

[L78M22Rag]

If it wasnt for frost green cars ,there would be hardly any original motor/ survivor cars LOL

Agreed! I don’t mean to sound like I’m knocking Frost Green, etc. More and more, I’m liking those less common colors. My point was that the people that are faking cars seem to do so in the more desirable color combinations like re-sale red, etc.

[x44d80]

Lots of things going on with this car. The trans-tunnel looks like it was cut for a 3-speed tranny. The left door looks like it originally was Frost green. The steering column is for a floor shift car. It looks like a automatic brake pedal but when I blow up the picture I'm not positive. The rear springs are the original type 5 leaf but the rear-end is a 10 bolt. It could have been changed because it has 2 u-bolts on each side instead of 1 u-bolt and 1 t-bolt. Needs pictures of the firewall, the exhaust plate on the rear frame rail if it has one, etc. etc.

[chris slawski]

Still waiting to hear what makes the data plate look suspect other than unfilled rivets. Granted I know there are experts on the history of these cars but just saying looks like a repop with out any detail makes me wonder of the validity of the statement.

[x44d80]

EBAY Ad is pulled.

[scuncio]

I have enough confidence in Kurt’s knowledge to take it at face value. As was mentioned before, if the nuances become public knowledge the counterfeiters get that much better at what they do.

[Lynn]

I have enough confidence in Kurt’s knowledge to take it at face value. As was mentioned before, if the nuances become public knowledge the counterfeiters get that much better at what they do.

X2

[AnthonyS]

X3

[L78M22Rag]

I have enough confidence in Kurt’s knowledge to take it at face value. As was mentioned before, if the nuances become public knowledge the counterfeiters get that much better at what they do.

Can’t disagree with that logic.

[Jonesy]

This is 100% a repop tag. I know why andI also don't want to reveal the tell tale sign on this one.

[70 copo]

The Tag in question:

[70 copo]

Not the first time for this topic here:

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=87858

Photo of an alleged real tag posted on page 2 of the thread.

[bugsy]

Question, what is the first thing you guys look at that says it's a repo tag,besides the wrong rivots. Just curious. Thanks

[JKZ27]

Decades of research and data collection. I don't expect to hear any details from these guys. I consider Kurt's input a gift.

[chris slawski]

well i hope somebody somewhere has the information written down as we all get older and the keepers of knowledge will not share with the next generation of these cars, all knowledge will be lost.

th...the...the...that's all folks!

[70 copo]

No That's not all there is folks.... Is this a fake body plate? Is it a repop body plate? Is there an issue with the line up of the VIN against the fisher body number on the body plate? Was the plate switched from a real car onto the hulk?

Kurt can tell us and so can Jonsey.

Man up boys..help the hobby out here!:biggthumpup:

PS. GM called it a body plate. The hobby made up the term "trim tag" later on.

[X66 714]

I've always referred to them as the Fisher body tag.

The more information that is released as to "why" make it easier on the people who create these forgeries...Joe

[70 copo]

I've always referred to them as the Fisher body tag.

The more information that is released as to "why" make it easier on the people who create these forgeries...Joe

Thanks Joe,

I get all of that. However I and others here want to have this explained by the two guys who said in definite terms that the body plate was a repop.

Why?

[Crush]

It may be best to pick up the phone and call so that the info isn’t publicized. I’m not even close to a beginner on this stuff but when I compare to an authentic one I see differences.
We need to keep the scumbag fraudulent punks on their toes!

[chris slawski]

who you gonna call...trim tag busters!

[Crush]

Kurt...

[Lynn]

Just from what Kurt and Mike posted, I think I can answer most of the questions Phil asked:

1. Is this a fake body plate?
Yes. Kurt called it a repro. Mike called it a repop. That means a plate produced after the fact (most likely by Trimtags.com).

2. Is it a repop body plate?
Yes. Just a matter of semantics. Personally, I think terms "repop" and "repro" or even "reproduction" are too mild as descriptive terms regarding a plate that has been produced after the fact that is not original to the car. I always refer to it as a fake. But that's just me. I always know when Kurt uses the term "repro" exactly what he means.

3. Is there an issue with the line up of the VIN against the fisher body number on the body plate?
Not sure, but I doubt it. Most of the fake tags use the same ident number that was on the real tag. I could be wrong on this, but virtually every fake tag I have had any experience with used the same number as the real tag it replaced.

4. Was the plate switched from a real car onto the hulk?
No, or it would have been referred to as a "swapped tag", and not a repro or repop tag.

[70 copo]

While I appreciate the demonstration in Apologetics I am well aware of the reasons that Lynn posted above.

However I am not the one out on a limb here stating conclusively that the body plate included with the auction creates a fraudulent looking sale.

Guys to be fair If I offer an opinion or the Norwood Retirees offer an opinion we are subjected to the virtual colonoscopy by a few of the aligned members of another forum.

-----------

So the question remains: Why is it a repop?

Is it the font?
The size and the shape variation of the embossment?

Cut us all in here.. or perhaps given the relative statistically small percentage of body plates in the CRG data base as compared to 1969 production -there may be some uncertainty as to the strength of the reproduction argument?

And there is the potential that I already know the guy who ran the embossing machine for Fisher Body at Norwood.. .

I think offering an informed opinion is a vastly safer position to take when you were not there and do not have first hand knowledge that you are willing to share

Framing a discussion as an informed opinion becomes critical when you will not state the basis for a hard claim.

[scuncio]

The point is simple - there is no need to share this in a public forum. The CRG doesn’t get paid to appraise old Camaros and there’s no financial incentive in it for them, so Kurt would have no reason to misrepresent something he felt confident enough about to state here.

Let’s watch what we say here so guys like Kurt continue to speak openly.

[outlawperformance]

It seems odd when someone makes a statement and someone wants some clarification everyone gets quiet and defensive. So who is really right at this point? I'm not stirring the pot just trying to understand why this is so secretive and why only a select view know or don't really know. We're all car guys just trying to understand and get smarter.

[Crush]

This is about as clear as can be stated why not share “ publicly”. I think it’s a fairly straightforward reason?

“The more information that is released as to "why" make it easier on the people who create these forgeries...Joe”

[scuncio]

Because we have to assume this site, like many others, is frequented by a few unscrupulous people who seek this information to turn a profit. I don’t get why this is so surprising or contentious.

It seems odd when someone makes a statement and someone wants some clarification everyone gets quiet and defensive. So who is really right at this point? I'm not stirring the pot just trying to understand why this is so secretive and why only a select view know or don't really know. We're all car guys just trying to understand and get smarter.

[chris slawski]

Hey folks-
to kind of stick a fork in this and call it done. I had posted the ebay listing because i was interested in the car, only reason being that it was represented as a X22 car, which would be perfect for the L78 "bitsa" powertrain i have sitting in my garage. My interest is i am 50 years old, a young buck compared to some folks here, and i want to expand my knowledge, not get in a pissing contest over who may be right or wrong.
To put this in perspective, i work for an OEM that if one...just one dealer questions something that is 100 percent correct, i still get questioned on it, so i always want to know "why"
As far as criminals trolling the site, i would not worry about data plate information the way some folks here rip a car up one side and down the other from a few pictures.
so get off the high horses, the cars with provenance will always have it, 100% all the time, it is as simple as black and white, we are talking about a "grey" car here it will never have the provenance to be a 100k car.
I took it upon myself to do a side by side comparision of the data plate from the auction, and the data plate from my old LM1 car. I was able to spot some differences, weather i am right or wrong....now i can be dangerous and say "from my 35 years with these cars" what is a real plate or a repop.
shame we can't all get along in this together.....but some folks will always be
"these are my toys, and you can't play with them"

[Lynn]

When Roy Sinor was with NCRS, they found something like 29 data points on the fake tags (or plates) and were able to spot them easily. After a lot of clamoring and pleading (I believe mostly from guys who bought cars with fake tags unknowingly, and refused to believe they were duped) they released information on just a few (something like 6... would have to ask Roy again). Within weeks the fake tag makers had corrected all the issues made public.

Is that what we want? Do we really want every little tag pointed out on a public forum? The fakers will then be able to make the perfect fake.

I know I don't want that.

[Z15 SS 454]

Chris,

You did the right thing with the comparisons of the tags and you learned something from that.

I do not believe this is a pissing contest at all and I really believe if you sent Kurt, Jonsey or others your question they would gladly speak with you on that.... Especially if you were interested in the car.

Any of your posts that I have read have always been kind, informative posts and I dont believe anyone is not commenting on your questions to be a donkey.

I truly believe they are really trying not to have the info in an open forum for some jag offs to get an education on how to perfect their "craft"

[Jonesy]

I dont see a need to post the reason why this tag is a reproduction.
I dont want to help anyone get better at making these undetectable. You can blame the reproducers for my reasoning. Not sure why I am the bad guy here.

I am here to help and will continue to do so.

[Lynn]

While I appreciate the demonstration in Apologetics I am well aware of the reasons that Lynn posted above.

However I am not the one out on a limb here stating conclusively that the body plate included with the auction creates a fraudulent looking sale.

Guys to be fair If I offer an opinion or the Norwood Retirees offer an opinion we are subjected to the virtual colonoscopy by a few of the aligned members of another forum.

-----------

So the question remains: Why is it a repop?

Is it the font?
The size and the shape variation of the embossment?

Cut us all in here.. or perhaps given the relative statistically small percentage of body plates in the CRG data base as compared to 1969 production -there may be some uncertainty as to the strength of the reproduction argument?

And there is the potential that I already know the guy who ran the embossing machine for Fisher Body at Norwood.. .

I think offering an informed opinion is a vastly safer position to take when you were not there and do not have first hand knowledge that you are willing to share

Framing a discussion as an informed opinion becomes critical when you will not state the basis for a hard claim.

If that is what you REALLY wanted to know, why didn't you ask that question instead of the other four questions; especially considering you were already well aware of the answers and the reasons for the answers.

I think it is perfectly logical for Kurt and Mike NOT to disclose too much info on a public forum. You don't think that it is logical. We can disagree. I appreciate what they are doing for the hobby, just like I appreciate things you have done for the hobby. It doesn't need to be a pissing match.


As for this statement, I have no idea what you are driving at: "I think offering an informed opinion is a vastly safer position to take when you were not there and do not have first hand knowledge that you are willing to share."

One didn't have to be there in 1969 to spot a fake tag made in 2015 (or whatever year). Go do some reading on Team Camaro. Fifteen years ago, the fake tags were so bad, that anyone with better than 20 40 vision could spot it. Guys kept calling out the fakes and pointing out problems with them. What happened? They got better and better. "Being there" in 1969 has nothing to do with it.

[Steve Shauger]

Phil (70 copo), I don't like the tone your taking with respect, or lack thereof to our members. I have gotten several complaints and it's not from the members you have literally called out in the thread. Please refrain continuing this nonsensical behavior!


Chris Slawski- regarding the tag:
Standard operating procedure is not to identify specifics characteristics which identify fraudulent trim tag or stampings. It is my opinion that detailing the errors will only assist the fraudsters'.

I can tell you with certainty it is a repop. Take the time to look at others tags that are known to be real and it will be obvious. The companies repopping these are catching on because of the information we inadvertently pass along trying to help fellow hobbyist.

[70 copo]

Phil (70 copo), I don't like the tone your taking with respect, or lack thereof to our members. I have gotten several complaints and it's not from the members you have literally called out in the thread. Please refrain continuing this nonsensical behavior!.


Please Steve calm down. I never worked at Norwood a day in my life. What I did was meet the men who built the cars and to prove that I take them to car shows all over the country to meet the public and the hobby.

Several years ago after I assisted Pilot Car registry and documented Camaro VIN 0001 I was banned from the CRG. The same issues that were present then are present now. If I posted at Team Camaro I was attacked there, now I am being attacked here at Yenko.net.

What we have here is an opportunity to learn. The Norwood Retiree who ran the machine says that there is nothing wrong with that body plate, and further opined that the plate was likely pressed right after a maintenance cycle on the machine.

You see Steve I broke no rules - insulted no one but I appear to be under some thin skin here by simply asking a question- a question coming from the guy who ran the plate embosser.

Now history is replete with beliefs and and science being rewritten due to new research and discovery. Sure there are lots of fake "Trim Tags" out there but please consider this-what if a percentage of these tags considered fake are actually legitimate and not recognized as such simply because some people jumped to conclusions as to what was "real".

Have we really closed our minds to learning new things about our cars?

Think about that for a minute.

[70 copo]

"The angle of the strike and the position set of the die characters relative to the final adjustment could change the look of the plate but we were permitted little variation, however we also had two suppliers for characters used and the shapes did vary on the angles slightly between suppliers and character shape"

"One supplier was primary and used for the majority of the work"

[Steve Shauger]

Please Steve calm down. I never worked at Norwood a day in my life. What I did was meet the men who built the cars and to prove that I take them to car shows all over the country to meet the public and the hobby.

Several years ago after I assisted Pilot Car registry and documented Camaro VIN 0001 I was banned from the CRG. The same issues that were present then are present now. If I posted at Team Camaro I was attacked there, now I am being attacked here at Yenko.net.

What we have here is an opportunity to learn. The Norwood Retiree who ran the machine says that there is nothing wrong with that body plate, and further opined that the plate was likely pressed right after a maintenance cycle on the machine.

You see Steve I broke no rules - insulted no one but I appear to be under some thin skin here by simply asking a question- a question coming from the guy who ran the plate embosser.

Now history is replete with beliefs and and science being rewritten due to new research and discovery. Sure there are lots of fake "Trim Tags" out there but please consider this-what if a percentage of these tags considered fake are actually legitimate and not recognized as such simply because some people jumped to conclusions as to what was "real".

Have we really closed our minds to learning new things about our cars?

Think about that for a minute.


Phil,


We agree on one thing "we were not there". I'm not sure why you constantly bring the factory workers into the discussions, yet you are their sole voice. Although we were not there, many of us have had a passion for these brands for 40 plus years and OUR observations and the data collected is vital to move this hobby forward so we can gain knowledge.


It seems to me you have a closed mind. For instance the fender extension marking discussion. You tried shut down the dialog (closed mind), rather that letting the observed fender data points provide information that would lead to a possible discovery (which it did). Instead you tried to make the markings fit your narrative, even though it was quite obvious you were trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole.


Lastly, we all respect those GM workers that built the cars we love, and we are forever grateful for their contribution. I'd appreciate if when someone's opinion differs from yours, you wouldn't turn it into we are against those that built the cars. That couldn't be further from the truth, and you're doing them and our members a disservice to imply that!!!


In the end if you feel the tag is real that is fine, but don't try to silence those that feel different.

[70 copo]

Another quote from the retiree:


"The body plate was not subject to legal VIN script tolerance requirements and as such was never intended to identify a coach external to the assembly process".

"We had size and spacing and dimensional tolerance requirements for the plate relative to the top script and the federal script."

[cook_dw]

Something else to add to this is if you notice it appears to have zero black paint on the tail pan but you can see frost under the blue but no black.. So that should add to the red flags on this car. No dog in the fight just sharing what I see besides the "trim tag". :biggthumpup: