69 Camaro SS 396 tail light panel black out

[chris slawski]

Hello folks-
I am getting some conflicting information that i want to try to clarify. NOT calling any one out at all! Some folks have been very helpful providing info info but they conflict each other.
My question is for a Fathom Green 69 Camaro SS396 is the tail light panel body color, or matte black?
one VERY trusted source within this group and others advised matte black, which i have always thought, and had read in another VERY trusted source's books.
The confusion is there is a 69 SS396 survivor belonging to a GREAT member on the site with a body color (Fathom) tail light panel.
I am still trying to establish some validity to my 69 Camaro actually being a SS396 so i scraped some of the robins egg blue (yuck) off the tail panel and the results are below in photo.
So matte black, or body color...which can i hang my hat in?
Thanks folks!

[70 copo]

Interesting, so you think your car was an SS 396 originally?

[Lee Stewart]

AFAIK, all 1969 396 SS Camaros had the matte black rear panel. All other Camaros had body color (SS350, COPO, Z/28, RS and STD). Only one exception was the 1969 396 Pace Car convertible. That would be white (body color)

[Steve Shauger]

AFAIK, all 1969 396 SS Camaros had the matte black rear panel. All other Camaros had body color (SS350, COPO, Z/28, RS and STD). Only one exception was the 1969 396 Pace Car convertible. That would be white (body color)


The tail panel and black out area would have a 60% gloss. There is a debate as to the percentage of gloss, but definitely not a matte/flat finish.

[Steve Shauger]

Hello folks-
I am getting some conflicting information that i want to try to clarify. NOT calling any one out at all! Some folks have been very helpful providing info info but they conflict each other.
My question is for a Fathom Green 69 Camaro SS396 is the tail light panel body color, or matte black?
one VERY trusted source within this group and others advised matte black, which i have always thought, and had read in another VERY trusted source's books.
The confusion is there is a 69 SS396 survivor belonging to a GREAT member on the site with a body color (Fathom) tail light panel.
I am still trying to establish some validity to my 69 Camaro actually being a SS396 so i scraped some of the robins egg blue (yuck) off the tail panel and the results are below in photo.
So matte black, or body color...which can i hand my hat on?
Thanks folks!


Charley and I have had a debate on the % of gloss. I would paint it 60% gloss. Obviously as you polish the blackout paint it will become glossier over time. I would not paint it flat/matte. JMO

[chris slawski]

Interesting, so you think your car was an SS 396 originally?


I THINK it is but it is a CA car without original drive train, but does have some tall tale signs. So as i have said before, it will NEVER have the provenence of a car like L78 Fred has but it would make a really fun driver.

[chris slawski]

The tail panel and black out area would have a 60% gloss. There is a debate as to the percentage of gloss, but definitely not a matte/flat finish.

I use matte as a generic term not specifically matte. I am more concerned for body color vs "not real shiny" black tail light panel.

thanks Steve!

[Mr70]

I'd paint your tail panel black too.
And just for future reference,it's Hang your hat on,not Hand your hat on. :)

[X66 714]

I use matte as a generic term not specifically matte. I am more concerned for body color vs "not real shiny" black tail light panel.

thanks Steve!

The way I describe it is, it's shiny but not shiny enough you can see your reflection. Lacquer straight out of the gun can sometimes produce the same effect..Joe

[70 copo]

Charley and I have had a debate on the % of gloss. I would paint it 60% gloss. Obviously as you polish the blackout paint it will become glossier over time. I would not paint it flat/matte. JMO


From the December 2015 topic discussion:

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=134256&page=4

What follows is an excerpt from an interview conducted for Echoes and would be applicable to Norwood.

"The back panel paint was applied on the line between ovens 2 and 3. The paint was the same paint used on the rockers. The gloss difference was a technical result of the temperature differences within the last reflow oven.

The first being where the upper portions of the body were exposed to more consistent heat than the rockers and the reflow process was always more glossy in those areas.

If there was a temperature difference in plant say a summer day- the body was already hot going into the oven - warm to the touch- as opposed to a winter day where the body would be cool to the touch, all of these factors played into the final reflow outcome.

Cars built in cooler conditions in plant probably were less prone to high gloss where cars that cycled into the oven on a hot day had better and more consistent reflow due to the oven getting a fairly warm body to start with"

My Guess based entirely on this interview:

Cars built in the summer= glossy
Cars built in the winter = Less glossy
Spring and Fall=split the gloss %

Source: Fisher Body Paint Department supervisor.
His name appears on the 1969 personnel listing at Norwood as a Fisher Body employee in paint. In addition He supervised the man in the picture below.

[AnthonyS]

^ very interesting, thanks!

[X66 714]

That description would match what I was saying being my car was built August 28th. Black was never full gloss...Joe

[Charley Lillard]

80% :biggthumpup:

[Steve Shauger]

80% :biggthumpup:


See what I mean:thumbsdown::haha:

[Kurt S]

I know of no exceptions to the 396 black tailpanel. http://www.camaros.org/exterior.shtml#BlackoutPaint
What vehicle are you referring to?

[Jeff H]

So matte black, or body color...which can i hang my hat in?
Thanks folks!

In your picture, is the green under the black or the other way around?

[chris slawski]

In your picture, is the green under the black or the other way around?

Jeff to be honest, I am not 100% sure...i have to do some more gentle removal to see how the layers come up....so that will be a pending for information.

[chris slawski]

I know of no exceptions to the 396 black tailpanel. http://www.camaros.org/exterior.shtml#BlackoutPaint
What vehicle are you referring to?

PM sent.

[enio45]

80% :biggthumpup:

id go 72%

[Kurt S]

The car he was referring to was repainted, incorrectly.
All BB's had black tailpanels, with pacer/Z10 exception.

[chris slawski]

Yes I communicated with Kurt privately and he had info on the car i was unaware of, and he set me straight!

Thanks as always Kurt for your expertise!

[firstgenaddict]

here are some samples of Dupont Black lacquer with the referenced amount of flattener...
I then placed a piece of tape over one side and then polished the other side by hand with some fine cut cleaner and a rag, the results speak for themselves.

80% gloss ~ 20% flattener
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ujC9IyYGeHy-Mc4BzqCx5zbvBLUYaA1dOCumQVVBVohtmJrMnUg8T8jzmp16TY yR7aVDalpwaFYB2jeCzeyc_z3U-nH1OcIHC4ACJ2TwQ3xvbTyKB6LjtXzNhCSyZnqxsNk9eoRtexa kxe0B2UZvVf8VtL6rqzycwEtv32umzs2u-le4TVE8Y5zppVtU6iJM6Ru4c1z9f4nG-0HOZl9CQinyVRmJ4DBYi7RTmWz1wyNw--sHgLWVE6EA3YOqvjDaiuz3kh1gyqDJ_WDEMkA9W_CtKg3uOKXU 4xWiiYLNXYxk-wSGJMuk8DhUejKxcZhVnHIGvl84zO4YY4Z89C-z3ajKGOiXw-zyVqrmMubTsKMovIg_lQWnC4_ZM3IE3e1THV1myARTLmvG1eTq 0yhYWwYViNXMwYBFScsQ58FMjWxZdoDOqjhbvqvJuGCalGl1d5 jyvEu9z0cAbDumeopPfDjf1Z5b8tFPrcmvfYNiBlAckhdSop_D kiwH_uLfqaHpK5wxXoduKHVcQj6DjK95r1okiPia66cYMOMtje ng25yXvBdCSIS5IaybPlN6ADCfUO1zXKtIopp2D9mM9gQOAvnP ix5wkH4rT28Y3rHmz2N9ITknroD0yDfTPw1hW4jjR6aGMvRheH Bj5Z2fqeboR4KxNrUsuN_kDNRrn87lbU3j3PzCJHgcXHD5ndva 4Q=w1550-h1034-no?authuser=0

70% gloss ~ 30% flattener
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ToIdP_DqAjs4-wnrxb0d5d52Rds4PKQw4iZwT10rTGw1nRwtjv4g6oqxRumKofH O4UwdGWZL9NieN0Fps7pVYtZq_ATCTmC8E7oBL2F2p03eoIj26 jRC745yArPuG7k-GnJQhK3ohSqus5O4GyvEZSa2ik6enECeHSHke2SHwJh-b7d8FTTTG6TT_GFY_AhsQwD94mdhESjT9xoSjJS_BjpY1kl48P Rt5ldqJ8ibdHusiTlExNeHJ85YbIXkYX_0BkCfg-i2NgEjKwQPopyHkEBjTElwU3f2ceT66OXOR4ZDN9yf3fYQHHT0 M0NsECltddIB6tHUszggoKL0xgI4JM-suk5OMYeUy3DQRUGdZ_v6YWXk716LHFZJqhJ4sT65PY_LZyYka YKyfZKa7AED3wQ0jwwTmF1W2zbVtr2IYVKq7bwKkO6YDrQhZwl MEdq8cxbzZeUQ8u6kpjl5A599PfAw0tHyxbbg3IMld-uTnvo-7NF4sTf8V-mEsVVE3tKoI3X4_IoqnWrzzoseM60_UlW4Izb-JCoxUuW8eQyHBbLs_4dmKlTSBgWUy4VaFtYt8Gw3hkL6-lkt8Qy68oT1hBQpW2KYCoz1T0sOFiWIBi2DFU-s8d_e8raNbnsnEN2CtOCP9TwDts94BSynC87xzPXehcyVHThDQ GfFa1wzW9Rw3MzJ_pFGR-qhHRIDzA=w1550-h1034-no?authuser=0

Another - the top sample is 10% flattener -

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/IMCYfAgBEn_fbChDU2qxVM7KclFqbhVo5A_47BimAllJk_ZAW6 VrR0i1B1s-hxR_9tvhKR2bem1ExDP6xmzF0y8x02_xUUp5Sy0-gPyDhDVTT-dT6v98KARHXoeHh_plX21e0CSKUSVnbvrjw_AGSZU4QiWkZIOo VmlK4zl8C0yONhw161tOnXxivgFTjp-DZZlFzoN8Nq4GtQwQ7KliaSYjrsmp-GUYz9u9ykT1t3SNkZC8u7kOGMLUCVzJ2LtO3G2jNFWMPQXVn_v-3XGQ9gvuZglphVCN_oiPlv7HMBaoUF3MXBTLS__XV0Vr6EAuv1 cRYQ9Jn6Ppaw_PVR5PbAE1EpAdbu38EErKEazjKwo0a37gUa0s px37fbTRsdtM0QM6yPHZhgF0VdUZ7-KNpGqs8QO7N6F43Tn-49dcnqiz5h4FMOXjrXNsbFyi27u0Qs8gk5FLWPCj7Fkvk67TJh 2xgY3oyAUnbytNgUdsXDPRma9CL3Ds1nF3xdaXJcZgowlGiKHr loPhPkl0C-QFuKYe01V7yNsuCZ2wJ5isYpXbJCoYrQJcVsBc4s-RAuNSbt4VMxeqo_8iDIh1gR-6Fc1NMeE9C_v2Czz7opcFoZXLvg4n2Eb6x81BnAVaaUFA6UqkP N7C7Fj1tOnSoJZQG3sgNxtOzqVu4kzBk1f86in0MjCZda88eog C7yf_2Q=w1550-h1034-no?authuser=0

As you can see - polishing does away with the majority of the matte look whether the ratio is 70 or 80%.

[70 copo]

From the December 2015 topic discussion:

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=134256&page=4

What follows is an excerpt from an interview conducted for Echoes and would be applicable to Norwood.

"The back panel paint was applied on the line between ovens 2 and 3. The paint was the same paint used on the rockers. The gloss difference was a technical result of the temperature differences within the last reflow oven.

The first being where the upper portions of the body were exposed to more consistent heat than the rockers and the reflow process was always more glossy in those areas.

If there was a temperature difference in plant say a summer day- the body was already hot going into the oven - warm to the touch- as opposed to a winter day where the body would be cool to the touch, all of these factors played into the final reflow outcome.

Cars built in cooler conditions in plant probably were less prone to high gloss where cars that cycled into the oven on a hot day had better and more consistent reflow due to the oven getting a fairly warm body to start with"

My Guess based entirely on this interview:

Cars built in the summer= glossy
Cars built in the winter = Less glossy
Spring and Fall=split the gloss %

Source: Fisher Body Paint Department supervisor.
His name appears on the 1969 personnel listing at Norwood as a Fisher Body employee in paint. In addition He supervised the man in the picture below.


Good point on the polishing. This is from my show paint question within portion of the same interview.

"Production paint was a constant battle. We always had low audit scores on paint and it was not because we had bad paint it was because slowing the lines sufficiently to meet the Duco specification for gloss would require a line speed reduction which cost GM production and profit.

Show paint Jobs were ran in batches wherever possible and was a two part process. First where indicated on the manifest - the line was slowed on a temporary basis as the coach or coaches would transition through the ovens which would immediately bake the coach for a longer period in transit.

For corporate orders we could also add a polishing element station for the batch. We could also do one or the other or both. Chevrolet could even repaint entire units within AGR- post assembly

Yes an entire coach could be assembled in primer and repainted in AGR as well.

As to Fisher Body more heat for a longer period resulted in a glossier looking job. Likewise more polishing had the same outcome.

Production jobs got some level of polish but the element was two guys and they focused on the roof, hood and trunk and were instructed to avoid irregular surfaces in order to minimize the risk of burn through and repair and rework which Chevrolet would be more than happy to bill us for upon acceptance.

Dull paint..Fisher Body hated it but GM wanted a fast line".