Premier Level Judging for the MCACN Show

[bashton]

The MCACN team is currently researching a higher level of Judging that will be offered on a very limited basis. Our friends from MASCAR Classics, who you all know are huge supporters of what we do, have stepped up to be the Official Sponsors of this new venture.

The basic difference between this and our Concours judging is that this judging would not allow reproduction parts or "over" restoration. Each and every part number would be inspected and the cars would be placed on a lift for undercarriage inspection. Replication of factory build techniques would be encouraged, and full documentation would be required in advance of acceptance. Unlike Vintage Certification, this is strictly for restored cars.

Of course, we realize there are very few cars that would qualify for this type of judging. We also realize that since our inception, we have had cars that indeed DO meet this criteria, and we feel we are overdue in separating these cars, allowing them to truly rise above.

With our access to many of the most knowledgeable and respected members of the Muscle Car community, we have been getting input on how to roll out this program properly. We are still working out details, and of course, we welcome your input.

This would certainly not be for the faint of heart, and will be extremely limited.

Stay Tuned....

Bashton

[Ryan1969Chevelle]

Always something new at MCACN!!!

I can think of very few cars that could enter this class but a couple come to mind.

Ryan W31

[Xplantdad]

Bob, awesome to hear...The MASCAR group are amazing folks!!:biggthumpup:

[69Z28Freak]

Well done Scott & Kenny. You guys are awesome. It's about time indeed!

[Copo_Cartel]

Long overdue....No way a roundy round car that has ZERO originality should compete with restored cars. I can think of 3 cars that were way more deserving last year and had the pedigree/originality to set them apart from a car that had an all white interior, engine compartment, and undercarriage. Hopefully going forward you won’t compare apples to oranges. Just my .02 cent opinion.

[bashton]

Long overdue....No way a roundy round car that has ZERO originality should compete with restored cars. I can think of 3 cars that were way more deserving last year and had the pedigree/originality to set them apart from a car that had an all white interior, engine compartment, and undercarriage. Hopefully going forward you won’t compare apples to oranges. Just my .02 cent opinion.

Point taken; however....

We will be separating period correct but modified cars from the factory stock cars for consideration of the Platinum Pick and Emerald awards effective immediately, as it is indeed trying to compare apples to oranges.

This category is specific to ONLY factory stock cars.

So with that being said, perhaps you did not take a close look at the "roundy round" car that took top honors. It was indeed restored with period correct parts throughout to the absolute highest standards. Consider trying to find a set of period correct tires, hoses, clamps, wheels, etc etc for a car that was campaigned by an independent as a modified race car back in 1969, duplicating the way it was built for the track.

Sorry you feel that way Doug, as your car is certainly among the finest restored Yenko's in existence, but in this case we stand by the call.

This is one of the reasons I do not like the concept of 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc, as there is far too much that is subjective. Bottom line is that either car, and as you stated several others, were deserving of the award, but only one can rise to the top.

Perhaps you would like to apply to participate in this new format? As with our other categories, (Concours, Concours Day 2, Super Street) it does not pit car vs car, but will be judged for each individual car on its on merit.

Thanks;

Bashton

[Copo_Cartel]

I know we are splitting hairs ...but it is great idea to have different levels of judging to ensure fairness to both styles of cars because the Trans AM was a purpose built race car after it sold new and modified 100%...I did take a look at the final assembly/restoration...I commend the shop who did all of the extensive quality sheet metal work because all they started with was a roof and rockers ...from what I see on the internet photos the hidden vin down by the blower motor is gone and the sheet metal is all Japanese based on the photos. Kuddos to their team for resurrecting the dead. But I stand by my opinion because all of the Japanese sheet metal in its own right cannot be best GM .

[HuggerSS]

I feel “premier level of judging” is black and white. There is a lot of gray in a “roundy round race car”.

[Copo_Cartel]

I feel “premier level of judging” is black and white. There is a lot of gray in a “roundy round race car”.
Very true . With a race car...you build with your own discretion and no one can dispute it....and if you go off photos ...they are at a distance without intricate detail. JMHO

[bashton]

I feel “premier level of judging” is black and white. There is a lot of gray in a “roundy round race car”.

The new Premier Level is reserved strictly for factory stock restored cars, so any race car would not be eligible.

In fact, a 1967 or 1968 Yenko modified car would also not be eligible, due to the engine transformation.

Bashton

[Copo_Cartel]

I am guessing that the backlash from participants from the 2019 show has created this new Premier Class. I have always been controversial but one thing I pride myself in is honesty even when it’s going against the system... When we restore cars we let them stand on their own merit. That car had NO business whatsoever competing against cars that were in a different league. Take my car out of the equation (happy to do so) ...there was 2 other cars more deserving...especially the L-79 Chevy II . It would be nice if the owner of the Trans Am car would share his internet/ Facebook photos of the extensive work completed by the sheet metal fab shop... The use of so much Japanese Sheetmetal alone tells its own story...best GM means best GM restored ...in this case using GM parts. The painstaking search for original parts was done by all of the participants...trust me ...a fellow member helped me with 4 original wheels ($4,500) as well as finding 4 NOS G70-15 tires($3,000) and I was happy to find them as my original owner let his go on another car that he sold.

[Steve Shauger]

Hi Doug your point is spot on. Didn't Bob address your concern by stating the following response to your post:


Originally Posted by Copo_Cartel https://www.yenko.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1498990#post1498990)
Long overdue....No way a roundy round car that has ZERO originality should compete with restored cars. I can think of 3 cars that were way more deserving last year and had the pedigree/originality to set them apart from a car that had an all white interior, engine compartment, and undercarriage. Hopefully going forward you won’t compare apples to oranges. Just my .02 cent opinion.

Point taken; however....

We will be separating period correct but modified cars from the factory stock cars for consideration of the Platinum Pick and Emerald awards effective immediately, as it is indeed trying to compare apples to oranges.


It seems that this specific issue has been resolved. The passion, time, money and attention to detail was phenomenal.

[HuggerSS]

I disagree with excluding 67 and 68 Yenko’s. 69 Yenko’s had stripes added, gauges and sometimes rims and headers. The difference is these cars were purchased from a dealer as a new car and was not modified by an individual. The same goes with 67 and 68 Z28 with dealer installed cowl plenum and headers.
I feel if the car came from a dealer with a warranty (factory or dealer provided) then the car should be eligible.
There are a lot of super cars that would be eligible for this class, Doug’s 67 Yenko should defiantly be one of them

[Copo_Cartel]

I disagree with excluding 67 and 68 Yenko’s. 69 Yenko’s had stripes added, gauges and sometimes rims and headers. The difference is these cars were purchased from a dealer as a new car and was not modified by an individual. The same goes with 67 and 68 Z28 with dealer installed cowl plenum and headers.
I feel if the car came from a dealer with a warranty (factory or dealer provided) then the car should be eligible.
There are a lot of super cars that would be eligible for this class, Doug’s 67 Yenko should defiantly be one of them

Well said and explained. Steve...I was calling out the elephant in the room.
I have heard from so many people since the show and most of them are very knowledgeable in the hobby but they didn’t want to voice their opinions in fear of the repercussions and the site moderators... Steve you and I have talked on several occasions in the past about other issues and you know for me it’s black-and-white and I don’t mind voicing my opinion when others won’t and the last time I checked GM muscle cars were made in America. It would be a good idea for restored cars that are going to this level of judging to provide restoration photos of different components and chassis. Going forward it sounds like a new class is formed to separate situations like this. Kuddos to Bob and the MCACN Team .

[Charley Lillard]

Aside from the judging aspect....If I were restoring a vintage Trans Am Camaro to race I would have no problem using replacement sheetmetal that was not from GM. Probably lighter and going to get trashed anyway. Save the orig. GM parts for the trailer queens.

[bashton]

I am guessing that the backlash from participants from the 2019 show has created this new Premier Class. I have always been controversial but one thing I pride myself in is honesty even when it’s going against the system... When we restore cars we let them stand on their own merit. That car had NO business whatsoever competing against cars that were in a different league. Take my car out of the equation (happy to do so) ...there was 2 other cars more deserving...especially the L-79 Chevy II . It would be nice if the owner of the Trans Am car would share his internet/ Facebook photos of the extensive work completed by the sheet metal fab shop... The use of so much Japanese Sheetmetal alone tells its own story...best GM means best GM restored ...in this case using GM parts. The painstaking search for original parts was done by all of the participants...trust me ...a fellow member helped me with 4 original wheels ($4,500) as well as finding 4 NOS G70-15 tires($3,000) and I was happy to find them as my original owner let his go on another car that he sold.

Backlash? Sorry Doug, but the only backlash was from you and a few others that felt it was appropriate to air your beefs on the internet AFTER the show was over. And of course a few "keyboard commando's" that probably were never at the show.

Not interested in a pissing contest over your feelings on this. Whenever one single car or person rises to the top, feelings may be hurt. Fact is, all of this becomes subjective and in this case, I'm sorry you don't agree with the decision. As also stated, your car and several others were certainly worthy, as was the car that took the award.

The MCACN team is committed to maintaining the highest possible standards, not only in the judging field, but all area's of the show.

Bashton

[bashton]

I am guessing that the backlash from participants from the 2019 show has created this new Premier Class. I have always been controversial but one thing I pride myself in is honesty even when it’s going against the system... When we restore cars we let them stand on their own merit. That car had NO business whatsoever competing against cars that were in a different league. Take my car out of the equation (happy to do so) ...there was 2 other cars more deserving...especially the L-79 Chevy II . It would be nice if the owner of the Trans Am car would share his internet/ Facebook photos of the extensive work completed by the sheet metal fab shop... The use of so much Japanese Sheetmetal alone tells its own story...best GM means best GM restored ...in this case using GM parts. The painstaking search for original parts was done by all of the participants...trust me ...a fellow member helped me with 4 original wheels ($4,500) as well as finding 4 NOS G70-15 tires($3,000) and I was happy to find them as my original owner let his go on another car that he sold.

Actually, a higher level judging category has been under consideration since the inception of the show. The challenge is in having enough qualified Judges who are willing to participate at the level necesary to make this work.

For most brands, we have candidates on board that are willing.

Bashton

[Mr. Chevy]

Now that the topic has come up about judging at this show, one thing I can add that I personally experienced a couple years ago pertains to reproduction bias ply tires. The Chevrolet judges were deducting points for same and the Mopar/Ford judges were not. Not that it really mattered to me but could have been a big deal to someone on that threshold of scoring a gold over silver.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or bash anyone or the show because it is a great venue with great cars, but just a suggestion to have all the judges "working off the same sheet of music".

Rich

[bashton]

Now that the topic has come up about judging at this show, one thing I can add that I personally experienced a couple years ago pertains to reproduction bias ply tires. The Chevrolet judges were deducting points for same and the Mopar/Ford judges were not. Not that it really mattered to me but could have been a big deal to someone on that threshold of scoring a gold over silver.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or bash anyone or the show because it is a great venue with great cars, but just a suggestion to have all the judges "working off the same sheet of music".

Rich

Absolutely!

Without a doubt, the biggest challenge we have when it comes to judging is consistency among makes, models and especially brands. With over 100 Judges, it is really hard getting everyone on the same page.

We strive to maintain consistency, and believe me...it IS a real challenge!

Thanks for the feedback.

Bashton

[Copo_Cartel]

Bob ....you have no idea who contacted me...Some of those guys are well respected in the restoration world and you know them well. So let’s disagree. 90% plus of the cars that attend the show are trailer queens and use quality parts. Take my car out of the equation ... I am absolutely happy with that. Why doesn’t the Trans Am owner comment or put restoration sheet metal photos up on the site and let the members see for themselves the quality of the best GM car. That car will never see 1 lap of track time or exhibition racing/ pace car duties ...so there was no advantage to using cheap Japanese aftermarket parts.
Hopefully this will bring change for the better to a great event. My opinion/observation is just that so please don’t take it personally.

[HuggerSS]

This a great event with great cars, I look forward to attending every year. I am happy that a premier level class is being established. That being said, I also agree with Doug on the 2019 results. I feel the level of restoration on his car was exceptional and documented on the forum. His car should have never been in a class with a non-pedigree, non-sponsored home built race car.
I also feel this show is eventually going to turn into a Mopar show. Not that I don’t enjoy looking at Mopar’s but my true love and passion is GM performance.

[thatmustangkid]

One of my major issues with the "roundy round" car is the paint color itself. By looking at it up close and personal, the shade is off. When looking at other Fathom green cars, the car looks too dark. I know fathom green is a dark color, but even under the light the car appears too dark. This is just my two cents but the car's restoration does not hold up to many of the other cars that were up for consideration. I also agree with the origin of the parts that were used for the restoration. If the parts are coming from Japan or China, there is a definite difference in the quality as compared to NOS or original. The "15th Place best finish" Trans Am car is a good looking car, but are we going to throw the merit that original and NOS parts bring to a car out of the equation? The show itself is amazing and the amount of cars is awesome, but the promoters and judges need to take in and weigh all of the factors and attributes of the cars. All of these cars are beautiful, but there are a few that stand above the rest. Comparing that Trans Am car to the 67' Yenko is a blasphemy in the car world.