My Pontiac Story

[Keith Seymore]

I've gotten quite a few requests to post my anecdotes over on this forum, so that they don't get lost within some of the more major general topic threads.

Basically these are my recollections of growing up in a GM family, in the Flint Michigan area, and with a dad that raced Pontiacs semi-professionally. This will be the long version, but I will provide links to shorter summaries and sidebars where appropriate.

I've mentioned it here previously, but before Dad started racing Pontiacs he was racing Ford products. He had a '60 Ford convertible with a Paxton blower on it that ran pretty well.

As a result, he had a good working relationship with Ford and was even trying to get hooked up with a factory lightweight in late '62/early'63. That didn't happen and is another story for another day...

Dad's contact at Ford was a gentleman named Dave Evans. Dave called Dad one day, out of the blue, and said "come on down here; I've got something for you".

Dad got the details. He was supposed to go over to Dearborn Steel Tube and pick up a box. He drove over and they directed him out back to see "Andy". Andy told him "...put this in the trunk of your car and don't open it until you get home".

Naturally, Dad pulled out of the parking lot and into the very first Shell station he saw and opened the box. In it was a complete 3x2 setup for a Ford; everything required for the installation was there. Intake, carbs, air cleaners, fuel lines, gaskets, everything.

After he got home, Dad called Dave and asked "what am I supposed to do with this thing?". Dave said "make it run. We can't get 'em to run...".

After a day or so Dad had the setup installed and tuned and took it out for a trial run. Sure enough, as soon as he went wide open the engine flooded out and stalled. He tried it a couple more times with similar results. He drove the car home, took everything apart, inspected and readjusted everything, reassembled it but still had the same results.

After thinking about for another day, he called a buddy over that was racing a Ford with twin Paxton blowers on it (Brad Burton was his name). They took the car for a ride, same results, and disassembled the setup for inspection. Brad left and Dad went to work that evening, came home and went to bed.

About four am the phone rang. It was Brad. He said "I know what it is! Meet me in the garage!". Dad drug his sleepy self out of bed and went to the garage. They took the carbs apart for the hundredth time and Brad said "AHA! There it is....I knew I noticed something wrong before but couldn't put my finger on it". What he had seen was that Holley had put power valves in the end carbs, allowing too much fuel to flood the engine. "We've got to plug those off".

So that night, in the Chevrolet die room, Dad made his first set of homemade Holley power valve plugs for use in a Ford Tripower!

[Keith Seymore]

Just to finish that particular story:

After installing the aforementioned plugs and creating a "progressive" linkage, Dad's car was running like a scalded dog. He called Dave Evans.

"How's your cars running?" he teased.

They aren't, Dave replied.

"Mine is" Dad said. Dave told him to get down to the Engineering building immediately.

Dad drove down later that morning, honked the horn at those beautiful wrought iron gates next to Greenfield Village and was allowed entrance onto the Ford facility. Dave met him down by the street and said "Ok. Show me". Dad said "right here?". Dave nodded affirmatively so....Dad backed up and smoked his Atlas Bucrons the whole length of the parking lot. "Wait here" Dave told him. He ran upstairs and brought the respective Engineers down to the street. Dad did it again and then delighted in showing them the changes he had made to their induction system, while another set of Engineers crawled under the car looking at his suspension modifications and still another couple were looking at his shifter and shift linkage.

All in all, a good day...then he would scurry back north to get home in time to work 2nd shift at Chevrolet.

[Keith Seymore]

How We Got Our First Pontiac:

As I mentioned earlier, Dad was racing Fords in the early 60's (a 60 Ford Convertible, with a Paxton blower on it, you might recall). As the '62 model year progressed and '63 model years drew close he knew that Ford was going to continue to do lightweight packages (fiberglass fenders, etc) for the Galaxie and he wanted one. He started asking his contact at Ford Racing, Dave Evans, about the availability of one of these cars and for factory sponsorship. Dave said "yeah, we are going to do (some certain number) of builds and maybe you can get one of those". Well, the time came and went and....no car. So Dad would call Dave back and Dave would say "yeah, those all had to go to the big name racers....maybe we can get you one from the next batch". The next batch came and went and...no car.

Dad had already met Dick Jesse by this time (see "How we met Jim Wangers", post #22 of this thread). Dick, always the consumate salesman, had offered that when Dad was ready to "step up" to a Pontiac to come see him. Dad felt like he was getting the "run around" at Ford* and figured there was no time like the present to make the switch.

His original plan was to buy a used or a leftover '62 Catalina with the aluminum package but Dick persuaded him that he might be able to hook Dad up with a '63 with what he called "the carryover package", at a better price. A few days later Dick called and told Dad to come on down, that he had a car picked out.

They met at Royal and walked out to the Service area. Past the last bay there was a fairly nondescript white Tempest/Lemans coupe and a wagon sitting there - nondescript, that is, until Dick fired the coupe up. The front fenders shook, and the windows shook (and Dad shook!). Dick shut the car off and Dad said "Dick, you know there is no way I could afford a car like that". Dick laughed and said "You're not a big enough shooter to get a car like this. I can't sell you that car anyway....that's George's car" (meaning George Delorean's '63 SD coupe).

Dick also confided that the wagon was to be his own racer. "At least it's an automatic so that YOU can drive it" Dad teased.

Dick admitted that Dad's car was actually over at the Engineering Building on Joslyn Avenue, so they loaded up and headed over. The necessary clearances to get through the gate had already been arranged; they turned the corner and behind the building was a beautiful dark blue '63 Catalina. He learned it was spec'd as follows: Built as a Super Duty car, it was converted over the counter to an "HO" car so that Dad could run B/Stock with it**. It had aluminum fenders, hood and decklid; doors were steel as were the rad support, fender inners and bumper brackets. It had a regular production (ie, "non swiss cheese") frame. Probably the most notable feature, however, was the paint scheme: it was the car that Wangers developed the "Bobcat" appearance package on***. Nocturne blue with the tri color Ventura interior, it had an extra silver stripe around the spear side trim, and silver around the rear face of the deck lid. Eight lug aluminum wheels, with the area between the fins painted blue, the top of the fins painted silver and part of the cap painted blue too (I believe, by looking at the old photo below). Add some wide whitewalls and you have quite a stunning automobile.

Dad was beginning to think that this was too good to be true; another "lark" like the Tempests he had just seen. However, Dick quoted him a price the deal was struck. They headed back over to Royal and within the next few days Dad plunked down $3100 of his hard earned cash and drove home in his first Pontiac racecar.

This is currently my only photograph of the car. I do have some images from old home movies that I am working to recover:
(1/2/2019 - video has been posted to youtube here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lvpCR07taY)

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=479773&stc=1&d=1522713250

And a "hero card", created by Eric White, in lieu of photographs. We made this as accurate as we could based on the video and contemporaneous photos:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Grand%20Prix/Seymore%2063Cat%20SD421%20lg_zpsz6unuizi.jpg~origi nal

*In retrospect there may have been some hesitancy from Ford management to give a special car and full factory sponsorship to a Chevrolet diemaker. Dad tried Chevrolet as well but without success. For him to be competetive for 1963 the choice came down to either Dodge or Pontiac (...not a very difficult choice!).

**Not long after this Dad noticed a complete SD top end sitting on the counter at Royal. He started to grab it with the intentions of converting his (supposed) HO car to a Super Duty, but Jesse stopped him. They already had cars running in the higher classes and specifically wanted Dad's car to compete in B/Stock. It is within the realm of possibility that the parts he started to use were the very same ones removed from his car in the first place.

***Jim had taken a special interest in this car while it was in the Royal paint shop. A second car followed, a green one, as well as a third red car.

The "green car":

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Royal/img015.jpg~original
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Royal/img016.jpg~original

[Keith Seymore]

How we lost our first Pontiac:

So, in relatively short order, Dad had gone from "John Q Public Ford racer" to a hotshot Pontiac racer. Although he started out as just another Royal customer, his ability to be down there during the day (since he worked second shift), as well as his budding friendship with Dick Jesse, could be used to their mutual advantage. He was able to hang out, attend press events and test sessions, and help them get some work done. By now the Bobcat package was starting to gel, and Dad was able to bring tripowers home five or six at a time - "Bobcat" them by rejetting, etc - and then bring the completed units back for installation on customer vehicles by Frank Rediker or Charlie Brumfield. Later, the same technique would be used in converting wide ratio 4 speeds into close ratio 4 speeds - again, five or six at a time. (I should mention that if a particular unit came together especially well, either a tripower or a 4 speed, it might not have made it all the way back to Royal).

I don't know if it was conscious or not but eventually a plan evolved. Quite clever, actually; Dad would run the "sleeper" car: a factory car, with full sponsorship and technical support, but no visible indication to the casual observer other than a set of Royal license plate frames.* Ultimately Dad would end up with a Shell credit card to pay for all his fuel and an open account for any race car parts. A call down to Royal would result in parts being shipped to the Flint bus station via Greyhound, where he could pick them up (many of the parts had red paint on them, indicating "scrap"!). His familiarity with Royal grew and the car was quite successful: never defeated in actual B/S competition and even holding the NHRA B/S record at 13.42 until Art Noey ("Shaker Engineering") came along and bombed the record out of reach.*

However, this familiarity would also lead to the car's demise.



*There was one ocassion where, in an effort to be like everybody else, Dad had some decals made up of his name and had them applied to the side windows. Jesse caught wind of it and had him pull them off. They very much did not want anyone to know who Dad was at the time...

**I emphasize the car's success specifically in B/Stock....but there were some off days. "Farmer" Dismuke was the tech director for NHRA and was known for being pretty tough. He had a ring that he wore and on the underside of the ring was a magnet - specifically for finding fiberglass or aluminum where it wasn't supposed to be. As Dad was in tech for B/Stock Farmer laid his hand on one of those aluminum fenders and said conclusively "B/FX". Instantly agitated, Dad said "I can't run B/FX; this car is a national record holder in B/Stock". Farmer said "I don't care if you are Santa Claus, you're not running that car in B/Stock unless you can show me 49 more just like it!". Dad knew he couldn't be competetive in B/FX, and didn't want to ballast up to C/FX (because Doug Nash was running his Bronco in that class) so he, along with the boys from Royal, decided to park the car for the day. For a discussion on how the rest of the day went see this attached thread: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=549309

[Keith Seymore]

How we lost our first Pontiac (Part II):

As I mentioned, Dad was becoming more and more familiar with the operations at Royal. Because of this arrangement, he could leave the car at the dealership for upgrades and/or regular maintenance.*

However, being a relatively young man (he was in his mid 20's by now) he was not fully aware of how the car was titled and registered. Dad had the registration, so that he could plate the car and drive it on the street; however, Royal held the title with a "Manufacturer's Lien". The significance of this arrangement would not become apparent until later...

Wangers had been racing his car on the east coast and, in the days of tow bars and flat towing, had a somewhat minor incident on the way back from an event. Minor, but still enough damage that a repair would need to be made and it was determined that the aluminum front end components would need to be replaced. Normally, an extra set of material would be kept in the warehouse for just such an emergency but, for some reason when they went to retrieve this extra material it wasn't there**.

So - now we have a problem. The main Royal showpiece is banged up and there are no replacement parts. Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on your perspective), they noticed Dad's car sitting, unattended. After checking and finding that Royal held the title, and knowing how expendable these factory/dealership cars were back in the day, it was an easy jump in logic to remove the front clip from Dad's car, make the necessary repairs to Jim's car and scrap the remains of Dad's.

Naturally, when Dad came bopping in off the street later that day or the next, and then comprehended what had happened, he was frantic. Recall that he had paid cash, with his own money, for the purchase of that car. Being a middle class hourly worker, with a new family and starter home, he didn't have that kind of money to just throw away. He ran into Jesse's office and demanded that something be done: either replace his cash, or get him another car, or something!

Jesse, ever the consummate car salesman, calmly and simply said "Van, I want you to settle down. You are all set - your new GTO is here".



*This also left him open for their unique sense of humor. Jim Wangers had ordered an aluminum third member for his car and was getting quite antsy for its arrival. When it did (finally) show up the mechanics saw it sitting on the floor strapped to a pallet; they noted Dad's car sitting a few bays down and somebody thought it would be hilariously funny to install the carrier in Dad's car and not tell anybody. Dad never noticed until some time later, when he was under the car doing something else. Jim continued to get more and more agitated and finally gave up looking for his aluminum part. I don't think he knows what happened to it to this day. He probably would not find it hilariously funny.

**Some of you are probably familiar with the Johnny Mauro Pikes Peak racecar (now in the Floyd Garrett Musclecar collection). This was a car that was built after the January of 1963 racing ban; it was processed with a steel front clip but was retrofit with aluminum components after the fact. We did not learn of this vehicle until the late 1980's but when we did some things started to make sense. We speculate that this was the extra set of aluminum from the warehouse, sent out to build this vehicle, and why the "extra set" was not present when needed for repairs.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=501579&stc=1&d=1546448447

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=501580&stc=1&d=1546448464

[Keith Seymore]

How we got our Second Pontiac

(also known as)

How we got our First GTO

Ok, so its the fall of 1963 and Dad is now the proud owner of a brand new 1964 GTO.

Well....I use the term "proud" loosely. This car had the worst paint job of any production vehicle that he had ever seen in his life. It had little flecks of dirt in it and globs of some kind of black stuff that wouldn't wash off. It also had poor adhesion, and if tape was applied the paint would come right off when you attempted to remove the tape.

Although grateful to not be stuck with a total loss, Dad went back to see Dick Jesse to complain. "Dick" he said "I'd be embarrased to drive this car; it needs a total repaint".

Dick wasn't sure the factory would cover a totally new paint job but said he would make some calls. He contacted the factory rep, Carl Klessick*, and Carl agreed to paint only the problem areas. Dad was to take a small piece of masking tape and stick it over any spots needing repair.

Dad did as he was told and drove the car over to Carl's office. Carl came down to the street, only to find this '64 GTO COMPLETELY (!) covered with masking tape. I think Dad said he used a whole roll to cover the car. Carl approved a total repaint - at the factory and at their expense - right then and there.

After the car was painted it was taken back to Royal and one of the new car prep guys put a real nice "Blue Coral" wax job on it. When all was said and done it was a very respectible looking automobile.

After doing his own "Royal Bobcat supertune" job on the car (similar to post #11 of this thread: "The Gasket Story") Dad was having good success with this car as well. It was also never defeated in B/S class competition and, legend has it, the first GTO here locally to run in the twelves**.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=501581&stc=1&d=1546448623


*I'm sorry, I can't remember the last name for sure and couldn't find it in my notes.

** Royal had rented Detroit Dragway for a test session so Dad went along just for fun. He had continued to refine the package and went out and made what felt like a pretty good pass. When he got to the ticket booth they didn't have a time slip to give him. Shaking it off, he decided to make another pass. He did and it also felt like a pretty good run. No slip. He decided to make a third pass and at it's conclusion they told him to report to the control tower.

He walked up the stairs and into the office, to find the track owner Gil Kohn scowling at the desk. "Seymore, nobody likes a smart a$$" he said, and showed Dad the time slips: 12.97, 12.95 and 12.93. Apparently they were concerned the timing equipment wasn't working properly and wanted to check it out before giving Dad the data.

[Keith Seymore]

How we lost our Second Pontiac:

When we left off we had a record setting B/S '64 GTO, and things couldn't be going better. Class wins coming every weekend, trophies stacked up like cord wood. In fact, Dad made a deal with the local track owners; he would not take a trophy or cash for a win if they would let him race for free the next weekend. They gladly accepted.

Too soon it was late summer/early fall, and late summer in Michigan means time for the Michigan State Fair. Royal was well known for having a display at local auto shows, fairs, etc. and they decided they would like to have a car on display at the Fairground. Taking inventory of the fleet, after assessing which vehicles were available locally and taking into consideration the appearance of the various cars, they decided they'd like to use Dad's car as the display vehicle. Naturally Dad was flattered and said ok.

Remember the arrangement with the title (ie, Dad had the registration, so that he could plate the car and drive it on the street; Royal held the title with a "Manufacturer's Lien")? That is about to become significant, once again....

While the car was on display a potential customer took notice. One of the salesmen, apparently not aware of Dad's arrangement with Royal and seeing that they had the title, assumed the car was available as a demonstrator and was able to close the deal. The car was sold and, after the show, immediately shipped to the new owner, back east somewhere.

Dad came down early the next week to pick his car up only to find (once again) it was gone. After a flash of deja vu, this time he was not only frantic but he was royally p.o'd. Not only did they sell the car, but sold it complete with all his hop up tricks, headers and tow bar brackets still installed and slicks (mounted on wheels) still in trunk! He was furious and scared, at the same time.

Once again he found Dick Jesse: "Dick, that was MY CAR! I need some money, or another car...or SOMETHING!"

Dick, ever the consumate car salesman, calmly replied: "Van, I want you to settle down. Your new '65 is here."

Our '64 GTO on display at the State Fair:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/GTO/img009.jpg~original

For a discussion on finding and interpreting this photo, see thread: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=549092

[Keith Seymore]

How we got our '65 GTO:

I have been building up to how we got the '65 GTO that we still have.

Now: back to the Fall of 1964 and Dad, once again, finds himself without a car and without compensation. Dick Jesse, as was his custom, had some tricks up his sleeve and was able to convince Dad that all was well. It would, once again, require a trip over to the Engineering Building.

They met up at the appointed time and made the short trip from Royal Oak to Pontiac; Clearance through security had been prearranged and they drove through the gate and around back. Staged behind the building, as if on display, were 5 white 1965 GTOs - stripped down jobs with no radios, undersized radiators, heater delete(?), red or blue vinyl interiors, tripower cars with manual transmissions, manual steering and manual brakes, steel wheels and dog dish hubcaps. They may have even had some improper trim, like Lemans trim or front grilles/headers. These cars were obviously built with one thing in mind, and that was to traverse a quarter mile as quickly as possible.

Now, here's the rub: somehow Dad got it in his mind that these cars were Engineering vehicles, built with thin gage die tryout material to take advantage of the weight savings. Someone had decided that, rather than scrapping this test material, it would be a good idea to build a complete car out of it.* He always maintained that Dick told him that outright; whether it was true, indicating that Dick had was more connected with the Factory than was previously thought, or whether it was a salesman's fabrication designed to sweeten the potential deal, we will probably never know.

Dick asked him: "So...which one would you like?".

Dad replied: "None of 'em...they look like taxi cabs!"

Dick: "So... what do you want?"

Dad: "I want a black one..."

Why Dad was so emboldened to turn down one of these special cars and ask for something else I'll never know. Dick wasn't sure there was enough material left to build one more car so off to the office area they went. A few phone calls were made and it was determined that there was enough material to build one more car. An order was placed** and Dad needed only to sit back and wait for the car to arrive.

===========================================


* Dad was also informed where each of the vehicles went:

One Dick kept for himself, altered the wheelbase and turned the car into the "Mr Unswitchable" funny car. He actually got in trouble for cutting this Factory car up and had to rely on his cunning and "good looks" to keep his job.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/DickJesse.jpg~original

One was given to Packer Pontiac and driven by Howard Maseles. I have talked to Howard about this car.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/PackerPamperedPapoose.jpg~original

One went to Knafel and was driven by Arlen Vanke:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=504203&stc=1&d=1548784398

One was shipped to California, where Cecil Yother terrorized the West Coast

One (probably the one Dad refused) was shipped back east somewhere, thought to be repainted and raced by Myrtle Motors (?).



** I did not know this until we did the HPP article with Jeff Koch but Dad did not specify the options on this (his) car. Apparently the order was created by a clerk in the front office; seeing that this was a Royal/Jesse vehicle he or she may have clicked the correct performance options but then also added some "showcar" options too: back up lights, door edge guards, AM w reverb (although the reverb was nonfunctional; it was packed with lead for ballast) and throw in floor mats. The car was also oddly optioned in that it did not include the tach or rally cluster - referring to the build sheet shows the car was spec'd with option 504 but directed to "build without", as though they were temporarily out of material. Besides the unusual reverb, the car was also delivered with the battery already installed in the trunk and the hood cut for use with a primitive, prototype ram air pan.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=501582&stc=1&d=1546448697

[Keith Seymore]

Picking up the '65

After a few days the call came. The build of the car had been expedited, to avoid being trapped on property due to an anticipated UAW strike, and was ready to be picked up.

There was only one complication. My mom was due any day with my little sister, Jennifer* and in fact Jenny was born on Thursday, September 10th of 1964. We went to the hospital on Thursday, but on Friday, instead of going back, we picked the car up and drove it home. Actual delivery date for the car: Friday, September 11th: a full 10 calendar days before the "official introduction" and documented delivery date of September 21st.**

No money was exchanged (he was still taking advantage of his $3100 purchase of the Catalina) nor was there any paperwork (ie, window sticker, build documentation) provided. The only documentation was a penciled note on the Owners Manual envelope: "No COD".

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=504204&stc=1&d=1548784537

This time, though, he did get something very important, and something that would change the course of his luck: a "clear" title...

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=503763&stc=1&d=1548333948





* Actually, my sister's name was supposed to be Elizabeth. Dad had already made the phone calls to relatives informing them that my sister had been born and was named Elizabeth. However, either due to the drugs or out of spite for my Dad not being there (or both), my mom stated her name was Jennifer when filling out the birth certificate and she has been Jennifer ever since.

** John V has pointed out to me that these dates to not line up with his published information on when the UAW strike (mentioned in the link) actually began. One explanation might be that there were actually "pockets" of local strike activity before the National Strike took hold (Pontiac being one area affected); another explanation could be that we went down to "look" at the car on Friday and actually drove it home early the next week. In either case, we were fooling around doing car stuff rather than going to see my mom and sister in the hospital. Mom is still (in a good natured way) "mad" about that....

[Keith Seymore]

Race Career for the '65

I had mentioned we had very good success with both our '63 Cat and our '64 GTO, both being undefeated in NHRA class competition. You probably expect me to say the same thing about the '65, and I wish I could, but alas I cannot. Although we did very well*, by now there were some local players on the scene that had really stepped up their program and were causing us some problems: Art Noey, from Shaker Engineering, for one. We traded the record back and forth but Art was a significant thorn in our side.

The car was actually lighter than it needed to be for B/Stock. One technique for making the weight break was to roll through tech with the tow bar (and safety chains) still in place, toolbox and slicks in the trunk, fuel tank full of fuel and me standing on the scales! After passing tech, all those items would come flying off/out of the car in time for competition...**

* Dad used to "toy" with the locals a little bit. As his reputation grew, he could tell they were waiting for him to choose a class before they would enter (choosing a different class). He used to wait until the last minute, then write the class designation on the window and then watch his competition scramble to sign up for something else. Similar games were played through the week, as his buddies would, as discreetly as possible, ask where he thought he might run that weekend (so that they could better their chances by running at a different track).

The other thing he would do is never "tip his hand" or show what the car was fully capable of until it was absolutely necessary. During time runs he would make one pass, launching hard and coasting through the top end (to make sure the car was performing on the bottom half of the track). The next pass he would launch easy and then run hard on the top end. He would never win by any more than he needed to, and would only run hard when pressed to do so. Then, when he did make a good, full, hard pass he would often see his competition taking off the windshield wipers, pulling their floor mats out, removing the rear view mirrors, etc in an effort to gain back some bit of performance!

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=518791&d=1566917247

** We did get caught "light" on one occasion. Dad made a pass and, before he retrieved the time slip, the tech official directed him across the scale.

"I don't want to go across the scale" dad said.

The tech official unrelentingly directed him back. "I really don't want to go across the scale" dad said.

"You have to - you just set a B/Stock record" the tech replied.

"You can keep your record, I'm not going across that scale!"

Well, he did, and it earned him a brief "vacation" from racing at that particular track.

------------------

We also had the opportunity to do some "tire testing" with this car. Back sometime between '65 and '67 we did some work for M&H and tried out a new style of slick called a "wrinklewall"...

We made about 6 passes and after we were done they let us keep the tires.

So that next weekend we went to Ubly Dragway and ran those tires. Some of the locals saw us running (and the times we were running) and so they started airing down their traditional tires. They were wallowing all over the place and really it was kind of unsafe. It got so bad the track announcer finally got on the PA system and told everyone to put the air back in their tires or he would throw us all out...

[Keith Seymore]

"The Gasket Story"

As I mentioned, our '65 GTO was built early in September of 1964. There were rumblings of a strike that year, so the build of our car, a factory "demonstrator" - if you will - was hastened so that it could be out in public before the strike hit and not be trapped on GM property. As a result, Dad and I drove down on a Friday and picked the car up from the Engineering Building, complete with three 7.75 whitewalls installed, one 7.75 redline and a 7.35 whitewall for a spare. A three speed was installed in the car and the intended four speed was loose in the trunk. As expected, the following Monday the UAW went out on strike.

Naturally, we had the GTO home for about a day before Dad started tearing into it, prepping it for race usage. Heads off to be cut .030", thinner head gaskets, shimming valve springs, recurving the distributor, etc. As he started putting the car back together he went to set the intake back on and (...as we now know...) the pattern had changed from '64 to '65. He didn't have any of the "new style" intake gaskets, so he called Superior Pontiac/Cadillac in Flint and asked them if they did. They said "sure, come on down" so he went in and (...guess what...) they didn't. They had the '64 style. He informed them of the change and started calling around to find gaskets. He called Royal; same result - "yeah, we got 'em" (...they didn't...). Jesse had him call the manufacturer and he nearly had a deal finalized, saying they could send him a couple until they realized he was a private individual rather than in some "official" capacity. Dad was getting ready to get some gasket material and make his own when Jesse had a bright idea: they could get some out of the Pontiac motor plant. He had heard Jim Wangers was heading over there to do some kind of marketing presentation and, since the plant was on strike, Dad should be able to get in there and get what he needed. The deal was struck and the time set. Dad was to wear his best suit and was going to get into the plant with a "Press" pass.

Dad was supposed to meet Jim at his office one morning shortly thereafter. After sitting in the waiting room for quite awhile Jim emerged from his office; they hopped into Jim's big yellow 2+2 "School Bus" and after a quick stop for an early lunch they made it over to the entrance at the Pontiac facility. The place was awash with activity, as there are all these UAW employees out picketing in front of the plant. As they drive through the gate, Jim saw someone he knew so he stopped the car to shoot the bull with this guy. That was fine until Dad saw someone HE knew! Pretty incriminating for him to be going into a plant, while it was on strike, him in a suit, and a UAW diemaker at that! He said "Jim, get me outta here!" pulled his suitcoat up over his head and they zipped through the gate without any further incident.

Once inside, Jim took his portfolio and papers and went up to the front offices and Dad headed out to the floor. Imagine an empty plant during shutdown: lights are off, everything is quiet, just a few individuals in sitting around playing cards or table tennis in the break areas. Finally, a guy showed up on a three wheeled scooter and says "Whattya need, Slim?". Dad said "I'm the guy that needs the gaskets". So he hopped on the scooter and they wind their way back into the bowels of the plant. They pull up to a work area and, sure enough, here are baskets and baskets (...and baskets...) of gaskets. The guy hands Dad a stack about two feet high and says "How many do you need?". Dad grabbed enough to reassemble his motor plus a few extras and they got out of there. Needless to say, for a few weeks after that the local guys were calling us to see if we had intake gaskets so they could put their cars back together.

As far as our car, we had it back together shortly thereafter. By the time of the "official" introduction - "Pontiac Day" at Detroit Dragway on Sunday, September 27 - we were already tuned up and hit the ground running, making some low 12.90 passes in B/S trim.

[Keith Seymore]

The Beginning of the End (and the End)

For 1966, Dad was given an OHC 6 cylinder Sprint to race. With some modifications he was able to get this car to run in the 12's. After spending all season developing the car and getting it to run properly, it was returned to Royal and sold as a factory demonstrator.

He didn't prefer the new '66 GTOs to his existing '65 and elected to keep his car (it probably didn't hurt that he kept the car at home now, and did not bring it down when looking at the '66s. Having a clear title in his possession was helpful, too).

For the 1967 season he elected to run our car, but in the B/Modified Production class. This class was a little less restrictive than the stock classes, and allowed him to run the newer tripower, better heads and a larger slick. It was in this configuration that the car ran it's best ever ET of 12.23 at 118 mph.*

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=474394&d=1517596632

For 1968, we had a new GTO with a few unique features: it was a 400 2 bbl (Ram Air), auto trans column shift, Rally ones with redlines. The most interesting feature, though, was the car was silver with black up around the back window. It was a test car for an appearance package, and they were trying to determine if the scheme should be done with stickers (on the line or at the dealer) or with paint.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=518792&d=1566917267

By now the "bloom was off the rose" with Royal. Either it was the drain of being told where to race, when to race, how to race (and, in some cases, who would win) or it was the dynamics of trying to work with a team, but Dad was pretty much done. He left in late 1968/early 1969, running our car independently until it was unceremoniously parked in 1974.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/000_3554.jpg~original

Royal would be sold a few years later and the "Glory Days", for us, were done. Just like the Pony Express, which captures the imagination of Americans even though it existed for 10 short years, Royal Pontiac would stir the minds of young men both then and for years to come.



* It was also in this configuration that the car was parked and sat untouched until the mid to late 1990s. Other than replacing the 1.65 rocker arms with 1.50 arms, and reshimming the valve spring shims, the car is currently, today, sporting these same modifications and is fully functional.

[Keith Seymore]

Not Really the End

We didn't know it at the time but the car would be parked for nearly 25 years.

By the fall of 1974, Dad would be diagnosed with Rhuematoid Arthritis, which he would struggle with for the rest of his life. It was severe enough to be nearly disabling - to a lesser man - but managed to slow Dad down. He was not able to drive the GTO since he could not push the clutch in without significant pain.

I was distracted with racing my Chevelle, which I am still running today. I recall in the mid 80's, for a special outing, we borrowed a set of slicks and I stroked the car to an easy 12.40 pass. The car sat again after that brief exercise.

Finally, in the late 1990's, I was able to convince Dad to let the car sit at my house, more secure in one of the back barns rather than in the front garage at his house. While the car was in my possession I was able to secretly reinstall the redline tires and rally I wheels, as well as do some minor engine modifications to get it running again (replaced the aluminum valve spring retainers, reshimmed the valve springs and rebuilt the carbs, cleaned out the fuel tank). I was able to surprise him for his birthday with the correct appearing and nicely running car.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/GTO/TheWidetrackers.jpg~original

[Keith Seymore]

The Beginning of a New Era

By the late 90's and early 00's we were getting significant pressure from our family and our Pontiac friends to begin doing more with the car, perhaps participating in local shows and parades. Stubborn as he was, Dad finally acquiesced and our big "coming out" was to be the Widetracker's Dustoff show in May of 2003.*

We brought the car to the show as we normally would, arriving without fanfare at about 6:30 am to get set up. As is my custom I taped a small, 8.5x11 sheet of paper to the window describing some of the history and details as we have already discussed.

What would be different this time is that freelance writer Jeff Koch was on the property. He took notice of the writeup and, after a brief interview with Dad, he was (naturally) smitten. He wanted to do a feature article on the car.

We said yes. The plan was for us to wait until after the show: he would be photographing two other special Pontiacs and would do ours last, after the lighting was better. We waited until about 8:30 pm for his return (remember, we had been there since 6:30 am) and finally....finally got our photo shoot done.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Dustoff2006/000_2964.jpg~original

*It was kind of funny because, unbeknownst to Dad, the Widetrackers had planned to have the car on display as one of the "feature" vehicles, on the midway for some special recognition. My son James and I had been cleaning and planning for the event for weeks in advance. Finally, the day before the show, Dad said "ya know, nobody has said anything else about bringing the GTO. I think we should stay home". As calmly as possible I relayed that I had, in fact, been in contact with the Widetrackers and that we couldn't bounce around on this decision; that James and I had been working hard to get ready and that we needed to go. He agreed and the rest, as they say, is history.

[Keith Seymore]

It took roughly nine months of corresponding with Jeff (reviewing rough drafts, submitting additional data, sending vintage photos, etc) but finally the article was done and was to hit the stands. Not just one part, as anticipated, but two parts minimum, and additionally readers were encouraged to write as well.

The magazines came out in February 2004, March 2004 and commentary in May 2004.*

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/ArticlePartIPage1.jpg~original
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/ArticlePart2Page1.jpg~original

One other fun thing that happened at that time: Jeff was also working for Johnny Lightning at the time. They were planning on bringing out a new model of 1965 GTO and asked if he could use the artwork of our photoshoot on the packaging. Naturally we said yes and received a couple boxes of these as a thank you.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/000_4193.jpg~original
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/000_4196.jpg~original

Since that time the car has also been mentioned in Charlie Morris' book "Factory Lightweights", and also will be included in an upcoming book about the Supercar dealerships of the 60's by reknown photographer David Newhardt.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/GTO/img001.jpg~original
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/GTO/img006.jpg~original
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/GTO/img007.jpg~original
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/GTO/img008.jpg~original


* HPP was also kind enough to run a short obituary in May of 2006, after Dad's passing.

[Keith Seymore]

Plans for 2008

Since Dad's passing in November of 2005 the Widetrackers have remembered his name by awarding the "Best of Show" award at the annual May Dustoff.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Dustoff2006/000_2954.jpg~original
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Dustoff2006/000_2955.jpg~original
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Dustoff2006/000_2988.jpg~original
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Dustoff2006/000_2991.jpg~original


Our family was on hand at that first show in 2006 and we will, once again, be there to present the award this year as well.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=501583&stc=1&d=1546448868
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/img082.jpg~original
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/img083.jpg~original

For more info about the Widetrackers Chapter of the POCI and the annual Dustoff, see: http://widetrackers.com/


Also for this year we have been asked to bring the GTO to the "Eyes on Design" Concours Event held at the Edsel Ford Estate. One of the special displays at the event will be a recognition of GM's 100 year anniversary: significant GM vehicles are to be highlighted and we were asked to represent the Pontiac GTO.


For both this year and in the future, my plans are to maintain this car in it's current state: both by not allowing its condition to degrade any further and by keeping it in it's 1967 season B/MP trim. I have all the parts to return the engine to completely stock (intake manifold and carbs, exhaust manifolds and cylinder heads) but prefer to keep it in it's current set up in deference to my Dad's legacy and as a steward of "his" car (not my own).

To me, it will always be "Van Seymore's '65 GTO".

[Keith Seymore]

From November of 2009:

Got my advanced copy of the latest Darwin Holmstrom/David Newhardt book in the mail over the weekend. I was pleased to find the GTO was mentioned (by name) and a couple photos present on page 99. These are a sampling of the shots from the aforementioned November 2007 photo shoot with David Newhardt.

Other PYer's who figured prominantly in the book were: Eric White (67 GTO convert) and a big "thank you" from the author to Dr Eric Schiffer (whose '68 convertible is also featured). David Anderson and Mr Wangers are also called out, as well as Jim Kennedy's '62 as shown above.

The book is getting rave reviews from those who have seen it, including Mr Wangers, and I highly recommend it for any GTO enthusiast.

K

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/GTO/GTObook001.jpg~original

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/GTO/GTObook002.jpg~original

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/GTO/GTObook003.jpg~original

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/GTO/GTObook004.jpg~original

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/GTO/GTObook006.jpg~original

[Keith Seymore]

June, 2009:

This Father's Day weekend I had the opportunity to participate in the "Eyes on Design" event, held at the Edsel Ford Estate.

The show is an "invitation only" event (cars are chosen by a selection committee) and benefits the Detroit Institute of Ophthalmology. The show is also unique in the way cars are judged, not by how well they are restored (or survived) but by how the design (ie, styling) created trends, enabled technology or reflected the culture.

The theme for our specific display was the advertising artwork of Art Fitzpatick/Van Kaufman. I was asked to bring both the GTO and the Grand Prix. As you might expect the vehicles were displayed with the corresponding advertising art.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Eyes%20on%20Design%202009/EyesonDesgn2009007.jpg~original
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Eyes%20on%20Design%202009/EyesonDesgn2009008.jpg~original
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Eyes%20on%20Design%202009/EyesonDesgn2009009.jpg~original
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Eyes%20on%20Design%202009/EyesonDesgn2009010.jpg~original
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Eyes%20on%20Design%202009/100_7379.jpg~original
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Eyes%20on%20Design%202009/100_7380.jpg~original
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Eyes%20on%20Design%202009/100_7381.jpg~original

At any rate I won a "Design of Distinction" award, based at least in part on the car's originality.

Here is the "elusive" Keith Seymore, posing with judges (and former GM Design heads) Bill Porter and Kip Wasenko:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Eyes%20on%20Design%202009/100_7527.jpg~original
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Eyes%20on%20Design%202009/100_7539.jpg~original

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Eyes%20on%20Design%202009/100_7538.jpg~original

[Keith Seymore]

One of the things I enjoy about being "my father's son" is finding the little surprises he left behind.

I was in his garage the other day and I found this "well loved" Chassis Service Manual:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/GTO/img158.jpg~original

This was significant (to me) for a couple reasons:

First - I found this folded up in the middle of the pages:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/KeithsRamair.jpg~original

I realize it's impossible to read (anybody else remember the old "onionskin" typing paper?), so I retyped it here so that it would be legible:


http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/ramairtyped.jpg~original


It's the service letter introducing the "Ram Air" package. Since we raced our car with an early ram air box installed, Dad used this letter as verification that he could legally run the airbox in NHRA competition.

Then, there was this "To Do" list (a list of things, from "beyond the grave", that he wanted ME to finish :rolleyes:):

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/img155.jpg~original

:D



Lastly, as I was flipping through the pages, I found these sketches:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/GTO/img159.jpg~original

As you might guess, there's a story there, too. ;)

[Keith Seymore]

Dad had the opportunity, through his connections at Royal, to work a little bit with Roger Huntington. For those not familiar with Roger he was a free-lance author and tinker-er, and fancied himself to be somewhat "forward thinking" in the areas of performance and automotive engineering. He probably was, actually, but was crippled by polio and therefore wheelchair bound; as a result he had to live out these theories through others and the subsequent articles.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Royal/img095.jpg~original

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Royal/img021.jpg~original

Recall that the main issue facing these high horsepower cars back then was the lack of traction. Conventional wisdom called for production rear suspensions, as released by the manufacturer, and the addition of "Atlas Bucrons", or some other "soft" compound tire. There were no wrinklewalls, no "fat" tires, no water burnouts, and traction compounds were for the fledgling professional race categories (if at all).

There had been some thought that "longer" rear control arms were better, perhaps resulting from successes with the Swiss Cheese cars and other big Pontiacs. In fact, some work had already been done installing these longer Catalina lower control arms on the smaller intermediate sized GTO's.

Roger proposed that this thinking could be taken to the extreme: if a lower control arm, or traction bar, could be fabricated to attach all the way up at the car's "center of gravity", then that would be ideal, right? So between he and Dad they devised a scheme to fabricate such a device and install it on our GTO. The sketches you see here are the result of that brainstorming session.

The first order of business would be to locate the CG of the car, in the fore/aft direction. Dad had told me previously about jacking the car up, using a small scissors style jack on each side, and moving them forward and rearward along the car until it "balanced" with the front and rear tires off the ground. This would establish the location for the forward attachment point, at each frame rail. Square tubing was used to fabricate the bars themselves and they were clamped to the rear axle tube to secure the rear of the bar.

In short order the new setup was ready for testing. Arrangements were made to rent one of the local tracks and Dad and Roger met there with high hopes and great expectations. After warming the car, Dad proceeding to the starting line for the first test pass. Equipped with a skinny set of M&H "Racemasters" - a couple short, "dry hops" indicated everything was in order - Dad staged the car and the tree came down. Dad launched the car and BOOM!! it immediately spun end for end, moving only a few feet forward and pointing exactly back the way he came. Shaken, Dad "putt-putted" back toward the bleach box area and shut the car off to regain his composure.

After a short break a second run was attempted. Dad tried "driving" the car out (a much less violent launch), but the car never gained traction down the quarter mile, slipping and sliding until the run was finally aborted. The "traction bar" concept seemed to be a dismal and complete failure, after just these two attempted passes.

Today, in hindsight, we can see why these would not work. Per the "doorslammer" chassis guru's, like Chris Alston or Dave Morgan, the instant center of the 4 link rear suspension is driven rearward and down from the production location, providing more "percentage of rise" when compared to the car's center of gravity. Today we would never consider moving the instant center to go directly "through" the heart of the CG; what they had tried out was completely "directionally incorrect".

As has been said before, you can learn as much from your mistakes as from your successes. The rear suspension was returned to it's "production" configuration (ie, control arms attached at their original locations, reworked bushings*, air bag located in right rear spring), and it is in this condition that the car ran it's best ET and is how it sits today. It is basically the same setup that I have on my bracket/index car today.

Dad had mentioned that some of the bracketry and holes can still be seen under the car; I haven't checked specifically but the next time it's up in the air I will take a look.

K

*an old hot rodder trick is to drive 10 penny nails longitudinally into the bushings. The diameter of the nails take up space inside the bushing, compressing the rubber further and giving the end result of making the rubber appear "harder". Today we would probably simply purchase polyurethane bushings and install those but back then they were not yet available.

[Keith Seymore]

October 2009:

Found this at Mom's house today. I had been looking for it for quite some time (but not in the right spot, apparently):

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO/JoesBirthday03Oct09025.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO/JoesBirthday03Oct09026.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO/JoesBirthday03Oct09028.jpg~original

Some of you might remember that Ubly Dragway was in the mainstream news about a year ago, as a result of this:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Stan%20Long%20SD/100_6971.jpg~original

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Stan%20Long%20SD/1StanLongSD1.jpg~original

[Keith Seymore]

How We Met Jim Wangers

It occurs to me that I haven't yet told you how we first met Jim Wangers, a very long time ago. I hadn't shared this yet because I wanted to make sure I did so in a way that paid him the appropriate amount of respect, as an icon of the era, that he deserves. I think I am ready to do so now.

I may have mentioned that my Dad had started to record his thoughts and recollections in a yellow legal pad. He made it through about 20 pages of handwritten notes, starting with the early 60's up through the end of 1963, before his passing. I was sitting here, re-reading those notes, when it occurred to me: why should I reconstruct and editorialize and summarize when it's already here in front of me? Perhaps I should let "him" tell this story in "his own" words...

So - here we go - "How we met Jim Wangers", as told by Van Seymore:
[my comments are in brackets - K]


"My first encounter with Royal was by accident. They came to Central Michigan Dragway [now Mid Michigan Motorplex, in Stanton Michigan] on the second or third Sunday in September of 1960. Wangers was fresh off his Stock Eliminator win at Detroit Dragway. On this Sunday they had the Maroon car 'Hot Chief 1' (the car that took Stock Eliminator), [Dick] Jesse's white automatic 'Hot Chief #2', and a blue car.

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Royal/img087-1.jpg~original

"At this time I was racing a Ford; it was the first 360 HP delivered in Michigan and at this time it had the three Holley two barrel set up on it and was running as a 375 HP (with a letter from Ford).

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/60Ford.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/img157.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/img156.jpg~original

"Steve French was the Tech Director and flag man at Central and I knew how to read him. As time trials opened Jim brought the Hot Chief #1 to the line and I came up in the left lane in my car. Steve would look at the right lane and then the left, and when the person in the left lane nodded the flag came up. By knowing this I was gone and I don't think I beat Wangers as much as I startled him so bad he couldn't catch me, but he sure sailed by me at the end of the quarter.

"When we returned to the pits Frank [Rediker] and Jesse were laughing so hard they were almost rolling on the ground. Wangers sure didn't see any humor in it and he came over to where I was parked and said 'I bet you can't do that again!' I was feeling kind of cocky so I said 'Sure I can'. We lined up again, in the same lanes, and although I didn't beat him by as much I still got to the end of the quarter first.

"By now Frank and Dick were laughing so hard they could hardly stand it. Jim came back over to where we were parked and said 'You can't beat the blue car!'. He sure was right, it didn't matter if I knew the flagman or not, he beat me that run.

"Later, I asked Frank about the engine in the Blue car and his comment was 'it's not quite stock'. I never did find out what 'not quite stock' meant."

;)

[Keith Seymore]

One more:


"Early in 1961 I saw Royal at Detroit Dragway with the '61 cars. This was probably the sharpest looking race set up ever. The tow cars were red with white racing stripes and the race cars were white with red racing stripes. Wangers was trying to come up with a Royal package and was trying different paint combinations and Frank was working on an engine tune. I think a couple of cars were sold in '61 with body colored aluminum wheels and maybe racing stripes.

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Royal/img087-2.jpg~original

"Later in the summer I saw Jesse at a drag strip and he asked me if I was ready to switch to Pontiac. At this time Dave Evans and Dennis Gray from Ford were pretty active in drag racing. I had a crank at Larry Jewell's in Inkster and a block at Jack Conley's in Brighton and was building a 428 ci engine to run. When I told Jesse that I was going to stay with Ford for a while (this is a Chevrolet Die Maker who can't get a thing out of Chevrolet but could race for Ford or Pontiac) he said ok, but that he had sold the car he had been using as a demo and for me to come down the next day to see it.

"So on Monday I made my first trip to Royal Pontiac . When I got there a mechanic named 'Charlie' [Brumfield] had just finished bringing the engine up to 368 HP spec and a guy named Mack was working on the Slim Jim transmission. It was a white Catalina with a white interior and aluminum wheels. Jesse said 'it's ready for delivery, go with Mack to test it'. Being young and innocent I said ok.

"When Mack fired it up it sure did sound good. He drove to Stephenson Highway and stopped at 14 Mile Rd in front of Jim Robbins Co [it's an industrial park now; I drive past it every day ]. I have been on some rides with street racers, Jim Wangers and Dick Jesse included, but never for a ride like this. When we got back to Royal and everyone was laughing and Jesse asked how the ride was, then I knew I had just 'been had' and that racing with Royal would be a lot of fun."

[Keith Seymore]

More recollections by Van Seymore:

"I saw Jesse again about twice before the season ended and again at the Autorama at Cobo Hall in January. He said the '62 program was under way and that it was going to be great. He said that Pontiac had built six Super Duty cars before Christmas.

"I got a phone call the middle of the next week and Jesse was more hyper than usual. Pontiac was trying to get the people at Daytona, especially Smokey Yunick, to run the new 421. The stock car guys didn't believe the Pontiac engineers when they said the 4" stroke would go 500 miles. According to Jesse an agreement was reached: the four cars with the 4 bbl engines were moved to Royal and if the cars would run from Royal Oak to Daytona then Smokey would run the 421 (this was something that everyone except Smokey agreed on). The day Jesse called me he had just turned the cars over to Fireball, Paul Goldsmith (who was still living in the Detroit area) and another two drivers. The cars made it to Daytona, Smokey got more horsepower out of the 421 than anyone thought possible; he and Fireball sat on the Pole, won one of the short races and won the 500".

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/hppp_0711_01_zfireball_roberts_pont.jpg~original

[Keith Seymore]

Some insights into Dick Jesse:

"One of the drag cars was at Royal at the same time and was being tuned [so that it would be "stock"! ] and painted the way Wangers wanted it to be. It was given a Bobcat paint job and Charlie checked the engine, the lash on the valves, the carb jetting, pulled the fuel filter and replaced the distributor with one Frank had reworked.

"In a conversation with Jesse he said that Gil Kohn was going to let Royal use Detroit Dragway for the test and I came down I could go with him. I remembered it being on a Monday morning but in a conversation with Roger Huntington he said no, we met on a Sunday. I can also remember being in a hurry to get back to Flint to go to work so that would explain that (Sunday was double time!).

"In 1960 Standard Oil came out with the Atlas Bucron and it was better than a lot of the recap slicks were. Vogue had a good tire, too. Jim had Vogue tires on the car for Royal but they changed to the Bucron's at the strip but it was cold and he had traction problems. I stayed to watch a few runs and Roger was making the runs with Wangers and then I left. Jack Watson was still working for Pontiac at this time and had a '61 with a 421 in it and I think he gave me a ride back to Royal Oak.

"The test car was very impressive in looks, too. I thought '...this is a race car?'. Power radio antenna, the interior even the steering wheel was deluxe and with the Royal paint it was a pretty car.

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Royal/img095.jpg~original


"As pretty as this car was and even the way it ran this was not the car campaigned in 1962. I think this car stayed in the Detroit area in 1962 and Royal had a big display at the Autorama in January of 1963 with a car in it and I think it was this car, the one used the previous January for the road test.

"In 1962 Royal cut back and only campaigned one car, a red 4 speed car. I kidded Jesse and said it was because Pontiac didn't build any automatics so he could drive one. But at one time Royal had a line of Super Duty's that extended the whole length of the north side of the agency and one of them was a red automatic. Jesse and the other salesmen were concerned about what they were going to do with an automatic. Jesse sold this car but the buyer wanted to see it at the strip and Jesse took it to Motor City [Dragway] and again it was a Sunday when I happened to be there. Jesse asked me if I wanted to make a pass and I said 'sure'. Later he told me I sold the car for him because he told the other guy that I was interested and going to buy it."

[Keith Seymore]

Early Bobcats & Super Dutys:

"In this late 1961 early 1962 time frame is when everything began to fall into place for Jim Wangers, Frank Rediker and Royal for the Royal Bobcat package. Wangers came up with a B-O-B from a Bonneville and a C-A-T from a Catalina, a special paint scheme and Frank had a tune-up to raise the horsepower from 348 to 370. The Royal Bobcat had officially arrived and it was one sharp looking automobile.

"This was the summer when I was trying to decide which way to go. Ford said a car would be available and by now my car was 2 years old and becoming very dated. None of the promises they had made were kept.

"When the '63's came out Ford had lightweight cars but they just went to the big name people at the start of the year and again the same promise: '...wait until the middle of the year'. Chevrolets were very limited and went to 'name' drivers only and an off the floor 409 left a little to be desired. So if you wanted to have a competitive car for 1963 it came down to going to your local Dodge/Plymouth dealer or Pontiac was building and selling Super Duty's.

"Pontiac was giving the Swiss Cheese Catalinas and the Tempest Super Duty's to their 'name' drivers but the Super Duty engine was available to everyone in a steel Catalina. Pontiac built a lot of combinations in '63: I saw cars with an aluminum hood only, with an aluminum front bumper and one car with an aluminum front clip but steel inner fenders. There were also Grand Prix's mixed in with Super Duty engines."

[Keith Seymore]

Dad buys his first Pontiac:

"Over the years now Dick Jesse and I had become good friends even if I had not bought a car from him. When the '63 introduction date came along I went to Royal to look at the new cars and I went down to talk about buying a car.

"The car I wanted to buy was a '62 Super Duty with the aluminum package and it was a red exterior with a black interior. Jesse and I talked about it and he told me to wait on a '63; that he could have to sell me a '62 but he might be able to get a '63 at a better price.

"We were standing in the door to the service department, by Charlie's stall talking and Jesse was telling me about the '63 cars and program when Wangers walked up. When he heard what Jesse was telling me he told Jesse not to talk about it yet, that it wasn't to be talked about.

"A short time after this Jesse called and said for me to come down that he had a car for me. When I went down to Royal and walked around the Service Department and looked at the white Tempest Wagon and [Lemans] coupe sitting at the end of the body shop there wasn't anything outstanding about either car and, until he started the coupe, I thought he was serious. When he started the engine and the fenders started to shake I knew there was no way he could get me a car like that. He laughed and said that those were 'shooters' cars* and that the wagon was his. The only thing I got on him was that they had to build an automatic so that he could drive it.

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Royal/RoyalWagon2.jpg~original

* [the coupe being discussed was George Delorean's car]

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/63TempestSD.jpg~original


"He said there was still hope. He had a car at Engineering to show me so we went to Pontiac Engineering on Joslyn [Avenue in Pontiac Michigan]. Dick already had it cleared through Security and we drove to the back of the parking lot and there it sat. It was a Nocturne blue Catalina with aluminum wheels and white wall tires and most important of all 421 emblems on the front fenders.

"Dick said that Pontiac really wanted to get the 370 HP 421 out and in a Catalina it was in 'B' stock but it was in the bottom of the class. The car we were looking at was a regular Catalina (production body and frame) with what he called a 'carryover' aluminum package: aluminum hood, fenders, deck lid and bumpers but the inner fenders and braces were steel. The car was light enough to be at the top of 'B' stock. But they didn't want it in 'A' stock as it wouldn't run against a Super Duty [Swiss Cheese] Catalina.

"My first thoughts were 'well, this is another wasted trip because I would never get this car, either'. But in less than a week Dick called and said that the car was at Royal and in the paint shop.

"Somehow in the process of getting the car for me Dick even contacted Jim Wangers. This was the first car to receive the Bobcat [appearance] package and people at Royal said that Wangers took a very personal interest in it. The painter in the body shop was the only person able to paint body color on aluminum wheels and get it to stay. This car received the ultimate Bobcat paint, along the rain gutters, along the side spear, silver in the grille and on the deck lid. The wheels alone were a work of art - painted body color with the ribs polished aluminum and the loops on the rims painted white.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/63Cat.jpg~original

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj0M4DQhXKE&feature=related (thanks to Mike Noun)

[Keith Seymore]

Royal at the races:

"Jim liked spinners and put them on all the center caps except for this car and I managed to keep the plain center caps. As soon as this car was finished Jim's 'green' car (which he used as a tow car for the race car) and Dick's white car were painted with the Bobcat scheme.

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Royal/img015.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Royal/img016.jpg~original

"As soon as the paint was dry my car was moved to the Service Department and Charlie put the full Bobcat tune on it. It also had the stock GM 'spaghetti' shifter in it, but Jack Watson had quit GM and was working for George Hurst so he brought over Hurst shifters for all three cars.

"There was a Mickey Thompson carrier made of aluminum with a 4.30 ratio in it there and Jesse had it put in also. This is something else I can tell Jim now, then he knew that the rear end was there but I don't think he ever knew what happened to it, or if he did he didn't press the point.

"The first Sunday out the car ran mid 14's and by the end of the season it would run 13.80 at any strip. The first Sunday at Ubly Butch Schmidt, who was the Service Manager at Bukoski Pontiac in Ubly, was running the drag strip. He teched the car and said 'B Stock?' and I said 'sure', and the car ran B/Stock all year. [Pontiac would often rent Ubly for test and press days].

"The car was a good running car from the very first and won every class run it ran. It was Stock Eliminator at several events in '63. We were at Ubly for the 4th of July "Great Lakes Championship" and Royal was going to run the Ramchargers in a 3 out of 5 match race. Jim was blowing a head gasket every run on the Catalina, which was about par for the course. Charlie ran out of gaskets and I had 2 Fitzgerald's that I gave him to save for the match race runs. Once while Charlie was changing head gaskets Jim and I made a run in our Bobcats and I ran a 13.70. After that Jim said 'better slow down or you're gonna get torn down'. Well - it didn't work, the car I ran for Stock Eliminator was the Ramchargers 'B' Stock automatic Dart. They protested me and I had to do a complete tear down. I was completely legal and Jim Thornton was really upset, especially when I told him that I would tell him everything that we had that was not stock if he would do the same, because I knew we were a lot more 'stock' than he was!

"We ran the Ramchargers 3 more times that year and the car held the 'B' stock record at 13.42 before Art Noey and Jim Stephens at Shaker Engineering bombed the record out of sight.

[Keith Seymore]

The inside "scoop":

"This was also in the days when NHRA couldn't keep up with the factory part numbers. When Jim wanted a hood scoop for the Catalina he got a Ford truck scoop and put a Pontiac part number on it, and it was now a 'stock' scoop for the Catalinas and Tempests, too."

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Royal/1961_pontiac_tempest_wagonscoop.jpg~original

[I'm told they also released a GM part number for the "hole" in the hood! :D]

[Keith Seymore]

More shenanigans and the Cat gets a rep:

"In August Jim jack knifed the Catalina and bent the front bumper, brackets, valance and right front fender. He also sold his green Bobcat and had a red one done for the rest of the year. All the aluminum parts had been used and nothing was available for the Royal Catalina so Jim went to the Nationals and took B/FX with a bent car. Wangers was sure that one complete set of aluminum had been put back (for a Catalina and a Tempest) but it had disappeared. It is ironic that I was to read in 1991, 28 years later, in a Pontiac magazine about a Pikes Peak car that was built in May of 1963. That must have been the extra set of aluminum and I don't think the car made it to Pikes Peak, either.

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Royal/Thompson2007-1.jpg~original


"As I said before, there was so much going on: Pontiac sent a set of HO heads to Joe Mondello and had them ported and polished and after they got tired of looking at them they said 'we should see what they will do'. So they told me to put them on and run them. The way NHRA was checking and people protesting there was no way anyone could run a set of heads ported to gasket size and then polished, so I took a 'carballoy' scribe and cut a casting line in the ports and then took the heads to Marsh Monument [a local business that engraved headstones for the cemetery] and had them sandblasted to look 'as cast'. By buying an aftermarket gasket at Kustom [Speed Equipment] it looked stock and I ran all year without anyone protesting the heads.

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/kustom-1-1.jpg~original


"When I got the car it had the HO cast iron exhaust manifolds on the motor, they were new for 1963 and a nice manifold for the street, but I managed to get a set of the aluminum manifolds and drove them on the street. It didn't take too many highway miles to burn holes in them, especially the #1 and #2 bends at the very front. They were repaired several times but it just got worse. Pontiac had a set of stamped steel manifolds, but they were used by the Super Duty Tempest and the stock cars. Jess Tyree made headers for the Super Duty Tempest and was sent a mule (Tempest 2 door) and he raced a Super Duty Tempest -was it the mule or was it one of the five Super Dutys? If it was the mule was there five or six coupes? [We now know there were six white Lemans coupes and six white Tempest wagons, plus a blue Tempest coupe and a Silver Tempest coupe].

"After welding the aluminum manifolds several times and not being able to get another set of headers, a friend of mine, Frank Bakos, and I made a set of headers. We made them as short as possible, you could look up the collector and see the #7 or #8 exhaust port. Everyone, except Mac McKellar, said that they would never work, that you needed length, backpressure, long collectors, etc. Mac said 'I like it. I'm going to grind a cam for them'. He did and I was afraid of getting caught, but the Ramchargers tore me down at Ubly on the 4th of July. They put the cam in 'V' blocks with a degree wheel and an indicator and the cam checked ok for lift and duration.

"At the start of the season I bought a set of 9.00x14 M&H slicks from Kustom and they were a wide white wall and I had them mounted with the white wall out. This far into the season my car was becoming known as the car with the big white wall slicks as well as a 'Royal Bobcat'."

[Keith Seymore]

Milt comes on the scene:

"In late July or early August Wangers talked Joe Kay into hiring a young guy that was working for George Delorean as a 'go-fer' to be a mechanic at Royal - his name was Milt Schornack. Again, I think it was ironic that 7 &1/2 years later when Royal was sold that he returned to Leader Automotive."

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Royal/Deloreangeorgepontiacplumcc1.jpg~original

[Keith Seymore]

A "high performance" option for the Lemans:

"In early August Pontiac was getting ready to start 1964 production so we got to see the 1964 Tempest and to hear about a high performance option for the Lemans, and that it would be next year's race car and run in B/Stock.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Royal/img142.jpg~original

[Keith Seymore]

September 1963:

"It was now September and time for the Nationals. Because Pontiac had pulled out of racing the Super Duty cars had to run FX [ie, "Factory Experimental"] and they put ballast in the Catalinas to run B/FX. My car was entered in B/Stock until [NHRA Tech Inspector] 'Farmer' Dismuke walked by, but he had a ring with a magnet in it that he would use to check cars for aluminum or fiberglass. When he put it on the fender of my car he said 'no way. This is an FX car'. If I ran, it would be B/FX and I sure didn't stand a chance against a Super Duty, and I think that was the year Doug Nash ran C/FX with his Bronco so I couldn't add ballast and run C/FX. So my car sat on the sidelines and didn't run.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Royal/100_7585.jpg~original

"Our other car was a 1960 Corvair, so we did all our traveling in our Catalina, for trips I would switch to a 3.90 rear end, we went to Indianapolis for the 500 in May and made a couple trips to Missouri in it and my wife drove it through the week....

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/63Covair.jpg~original

[Keith Seymore]

Keith here again:

I'm afraid with that abrupt ending that's all there is.

I knew that he had been writing these notes, both for my benefit and to keep his recollections fresh. It took me a while to find them, but I did eventually - in the silverware drawer of his travel trailer. It made perfect sense; he used the quiet time at the campground (or after the racing was done on race weekends) to jot these thoughts down.

I'm grateful for his diligence in capturing all this (and for all the insights into the dynamics between he, Jesse, Wangers, Rediker, Schornack, et al), but I only wish there was more :(

K

[Keith Seymore]

Here's a couple pics of the pad of paper, just so you can see what I'm workin' with....

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO/100_9177.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO/100_9179.jpg~original

[Xplantdad]

So totally cool...thanks for sharing Keith! :biggthumpup:

[Keith Seymore]

November 2009 - Inaugural MCACN:

Just got back from Chicago, where I was able to participate in the Nickey "Muscle Car & Corvette Nationals".

One of the displays was a collection of "significant" Royal GTOs. Tenney Fairchild (owner of the Red Car&Driver '64 GTO) asked if I could bring my car. Thank you, Tenney, for the inivitation (I was honored to be numbered among you all) and thank you, Bob Ashton, for putting on a great show!

Got to hang out and swap stories all weekend with Tenny, Scott Tiemann and his Dad, Bill and Rita Shultz, Big Injun Dave and Mr Wangers. My side still hurts from laughing so much.

K

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Muscle%20Car%20Nationals%202009/100_9620.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Muscle%20Car%20Nationals%202009/100_9629.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Muscle%20Car%20Nationals%202009/100_9628.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Muscle%20Car%20Nationals%202009/100_9634.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Muscle%20Car%20Nationals%202009/100_9655.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Muscle%20Car%20Nationals%202009/100_9656.jpg~original


Complete set of photos can be found here:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3829591#post3829591

K

[Keith Seymore]

You're Van Seymore, aren't you...



One of the old stories Dad liked to tell...


He was at the track, somewhere, and there was a lull in the action - so he was napping under a shady tree (where he always liked to park - and something he very much liked to do).

Off a little ways in the distance he can hear this young man, entourage in tow, loudly evaluating all the other cars in his class and issuing his verdict: "....we'll have to watch out for this guy..." or "...this one here will be no problem", etc.

Dad watched, one eye half open, as this young man and his fans approached Dad's pit and surveyed the situation: Dad leaning back, apparently dozing, Mom changing my sister's diaper in the back of the tow car. A little black GTO with no lettering or apparent sponsors, sitting quietly and passively nearby.

"We don't have to worry about this guy!" the kid loudly proclaimed. They laughed and slapped each other on the back as they wandered off to continue their tour of the competition.

After the kid was out of earshot, Dad said to Mom "...I'm gonna run that kid for the trophy... and I'm gonna hurt him!"

"VAN!" she scolded. "Don't you get too cocky!"

"Wait and see" he confided, watching the kid walk away.

Sure enough, as the rounds went by, Dad was clicking off the wins on his side of the ladder (launching lazily and chasing his victims down, or "sandbagging" just enough to take the stripe) and this kid, in his '65 GTO, was knocking 'em down on the other side. Eventually, as predicted, the two GTOs met in the final round.





The tree came down and Dad launched hard and moved first. He shifted cleanly one time, two times, three times and kept it floored all the way through. Crossing the finish line several car lengths ahead of his competition, the kid was not only soundly beaten but surely must have been totally humiliated.

Dad putted back to the pit area, went to the tower to pick up his trophy (...or exchange it for free admission the next week...) and started loading stuff up. As he worked, he noticed out the corner of his eye, the kid approaching: alone - and obviously humbled.

The kid spoke first: "You're Van Seymore, aren't you?".

Dad chuckled to himself and said: "Yes....why do you ask?".

"Well" the kid continued "My uncle is Frank Bakos*. He's always telling me about you and your racecars but I didn't realize that was you when I was here earlier".

They visited a little bit more, about the cars and about mutual friends, and then went their separate ways.

I don't know what the rest of the conversation was but it seems the kid got a "spanking" he didn't soon forget - since Dad heard the same story come back around when Frank starting telling him about it!

K

[Keith Seymore]

"...Didn't you used to be Van Seymore?..."



Ok - so that made me think of a funny one:

After Dad got sick the medicines (steroids) caused him to retain water. During his growing up years and in young adulthood he had always been quite thin, but the medicines caused him to puff up a bit, especially making his face a little rounder than it had been previously.

Dad was always running into someone he knew, whether it was in an expressway rest area in Phoenix or a shopping trip in a local mall. One time we were out and someone thought they recognized him:

"...Didn't you used to be Van Seymore?" the man asked.

Dad paused for a minute and said "....I thought I still was...." :rolleyes:

K

[Keith Seymore]

November 2009:

Wendy's story -


I had something funny happen a few weeks ago, back in the November timeframe, that I haven't shared with you guys yet.

I had some errands to run in support of getting ready to go to Chicago (to the Muscle Car Nationals) so I decided to grab some lunch and take the afternoon off. I almost never go out for lunch and I never EVER stop at the Wendy's closest to my house - but - a bacon cheeseburger sounded pretty good so I stopped in. I pulled into the parking lot and parked way in the back, away from everybody else, as is my custom now that I am driving my restored '87 pickup.

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Red%20Truck/RedTruck29SE09004.jpg~original

I should mention, as shown, my little truck is a red Chevy regular cab 2wd shortbox. Because of that it was only natural I noticed, as I pulled in, a guy followed me in a newer (GMT800 style) pickup, also a red Chevy regular cab 2wd shortbox. He parked back kind of where I was, next to me but leaving a respectful distance between his truck and mine.

After I finished my burger (...which was excellent, by the way...) I walked back out and I noticed his truck was still sitting there. I didn't see him come or go so I looked around a bit as I was walking and right then he came out of the restaurant. He caught up to me and spoke first, saying "...hey, that's a sweet little truck!" or something like that.

I confided that I had noticed his truck , too, so we spent several minutes talking about (red) Chevy pickups, then onto working for GM and living in the area. I told him (gradually) about restoring the truck through the summer, giving him short snippets of info and then responding in more detail as he asked more follow up questions.

I haven't mentioned this yet but, because I was heading to the Muscle Car Nats that weekend, and because I wanted the author Darwin Holmstrom to sign my book, I had my big GTO book laying in the front seat of the truck.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/GTO/GTObook001.jpg~original

As the pickup truck conversation died down a bit, he said "....I see you've got the new GTO book. Have you had a chance to look at it much?".

I didn't tell him that I'd had it since May but did indicate that I had flipped through it a time or two.;)

At that point he said, matter of factly: "My car is in it". Surprised, I said "really, which one!?!".

His car is the red '61 Catalina, shown early in the book on pages 40 - 45. He got pretty good coverage spanning over several pages.

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO/100_9663.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO/100_9662.jpg~original

So now the conversation was off and running again, this time talking about Pontiacs, and how he got the car painted a year ago, and how the motor is out now (spun a cam bearing) and going back together. I told him my car was on page 99 and that we did the photo shoot in November of '07 pretty much across the street from where we were currently standing. We marveled at the fact that we lived only a few miles apart and never had met before, and how unusual it was for us to meet under these circumstances.

My car:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/GTO/GTObook003.jpg~original

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/GTO/GTObook004.jpg~original

I bet we stood in that Wendy's parking lot for almost an hour before we finally decided we'd better get going, parting ways but vowing to stay in touch.

That was one of the most bizarre chance encounters (and one of the most enjoyable) in recent memory....

K

[Keith Seymore]

Not GTO related, but Pontiac related:

April 2010:

It's that time of year; I suspect dads all across America are being asked to drive their kids around "in an old car", and my house was no exception.

Last night was my turn - took the kids for a ride and then dropped my second oldest daughter at her Senior Prom. We managed to get a few (silly) shots amidst all the seriousness:

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Grand%20Prix/100_0216.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Grand%20Prix/100_0217.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Grand%20Prix/100_0218.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Grand%20Prix/100_0219.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Grand%20Prix/100_0224.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Grand%20Prix/100_0225.jpg~original

[Keith Seymore]

This is something I've been wanting to do for quite some time now; ever since I found the old tow bar hanging on the wall at Mom & Dad's house.

I put a hitch on the Grand Prix over the winter and finally got to try it out today -

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Grand%20Prix/100_0321.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Grand%20Prix/100_0325.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Grand%20Prix/100_0328.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Grand%20Prix/100_0333.jpg~original

That's how we used to roll, back in the day!

K

[Keith Seymore]

June 2010:

Yesterday was the Widetrackers Chapter of POCI spring "Dustoff" car show; among other things this was to be the fifth and final presentation of the "Van Seymore Award" in memory of dad -

About 120 cars, representing several different Pontiac and special interest clubs, were in attendance:

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Dustoff%202010/100_0395.jpg~original

In spite of the threat of rain, I brought the Grand Prix:

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Dustoff%202010/100_0356.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Dustoff%202010/100_0400.jpg~original


Here is the trophy for this year's Award, provided by the Widetrackers:

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Dustoff%202010/100_0389.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Dustoff%202010/100_0388.jpg~original

This year's winner was the fabulous '61 Catalina owned by Dennis and Mary Koss. This car was formerly owned (and the restoration financed by) Detroit rocker Bob Seger. Very tastefully done with a black and grey mild custom tri-tone interior, Vintage Air underdash A/C unit and '62 console. The car is said to contain Bob's cigarette ashes in the ash tray (...I suggested they should try to sell them on Ebay as "Bob Seger's Ashes"). This car was also chosen as "Best of Show" by popular vote.

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Dustoff%202010/100_0399.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Dustoff%202010/100_0398.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Dustoff%202010/100_0401.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Dustoff%202010/100_0402.jpg~original

The Koss's are the only "two time" winners of the award, having won previously in 2008 with their 1962 Catalina "Royal Bobcat" tribute.

A complete set of photos can be viewed here: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4016176

[Keith Seymore]

August 2010:

We talked about the Widetracker's Dustoff show (above); if memory serves that event was immediately followed by the "Eyes on Design" concours event, held at the Edsel Ford Estate.

George Turner and I were representin' the GTO crowd at that one:

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Eyes%20on%20Design%202010/100_0557.jpg~original

Complete set of pics for that great event can be found here:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636713

That was pretty much immediately followed by the "Concours de Elegance" at Meadow Brook. Tickets were provided by collector/restorer Joe Bortz, who wanted me to see a couple of his MotorRama show cars -

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Meadow%20Brook%202010/100_0686.jpg~original

What Joe didn't realize is that he was really financing my trip to see this little guy:

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Meadow%20Brook%202010/100_0695.jpg~original

That thread, complete with more pictures of A/FX racers, is located here:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=639846

This week is, of course, Woodward Dream Cruise week. The actual event is Saturday, which I will have to miss due to a personal scheduling conflict, but I've been getting my fill through the week. We were out twice Monday night, and then again last night. Today I will be taking some out of town guests on my patented "abandoned factories" tour - visiting some notable Detroit area ruins and finishing up at the Pontiac Assembly Center, where all three of my Pontiacs were built.

[Keith Seymore]

One more thing:

I also had an opportunity to take some "old/new" photos at the GM Tech Center during the GM shutdown -


http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Grand%20Prix/GrandPrixTechCenter1.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Grand%20Prix/Pontiac-Grand_Prix_1963_800x600_wal.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Grand%20Prix/100_0668.jpg~original

........................

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Grand%20Prix/GrandPrixTechCenter2.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Grand%20Prix/100_0671.jpg~original

They weren't "framed up" as perfectly as I had envisioned but, in my defense, let's just say I wasn't given as much time to work with as I would have liked...

K

[Keith Seymore]

This found it's way back to my house the other day:

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/IMG_0127.jpg~original

Dad never regularly used a cane, even in his old age, but he did make this one as sort of a novelty item. I believe he found the T handle at a swap meet and mated it to an existing shaft.

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/IMG_0128.jpg~original

He wasn't afraid to use it, either, to clear a pathway in a crowded mall or car show, or to protect his arthritic feet and ankles. That T handle is heavy and, believe me, it hurts if you find yourself on the wrong end of it!

(lol)

K

[Keith Seymore]

We were just discussing "hop up" tricks on another thread, and I was reminded of something that would fit here as well:

The discussion was installing "weaker mechanical advance springs" in a reworked distributor -

Remember those cloth hand towel machines that were in the men's rest room of the day (the ones that were a continuous loop)? You'd give them a little tug like a window shade, and they would present the next section of "clean" towel for your use.

Dad and his buddies discovered that there were little springs inside those, that were perfect for replacing the mechanical advance springs in the distributor.

He said, at one point, you couldn't find a bathroom in Pontiac or at Chevrolet Manufacturing where the towel rack worked. They'd just go "bzzzzzttttt" and the whole length of towel would end up on the floor......

[Keith Seymore]

June 2011:

One of the PY forum members Bonneville Joe started a thread about taking his car back to it's original delivering dealer from some pictures and I thought "hey, I can do that, too!".

So - since this is Father's Day and I can do pretty much whatever I want, I drove the GTO over to 400 N Main Street in Royal Oak, formerly Royal Pontiac (and more recently formerly Jim Fresard Pontiac) for a photo shoot.

The building is actually being considered for a Kroger supermarket ( I have also heard they may tear it down), so I wanted to get some photos before that happened. These are intended to be primarily documentation of the existing buildings, but if one or two turned out to be somewhat artistic...well, that's a bonus I guess.

One other ironic thought: during my growing up years, when we were at Royal a couple times a week, it was a 50 mile ride. Now, as an adult, I live about 4 miles from this hallowed ground.

K


http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO%20at%20Fresards%2019JN2011/DSC00058.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO%20at%20Fresards%2019JN2011/DSC00061.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO%20at%20Fresards%2019JN2011/DSC00062.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO%20at%20Fresards%2019JN2011/DSC00063.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO%20at%20Fresards%2019JN2011/DSC00064.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO%20at%20Fresards%2019JN2011/DSC00065.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO%20at%20Fresards%2019JN2011/DSC00066.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO%20at%20Fresards%2019JN2011/DSC00067.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO%20at%20Fresards%2019JN2011/DSC00068.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO%20at%20Fresards%2019JN2011/DSC00069.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO%20at%20Fresards%2019JN2011/DSC00070.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO%20at%20Fresards%2019JN2011/DSC00071.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO%20at%20Fresards%2019JN2011/DSC00072.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO%20at%20Fresards%2019JN2011/DSC00073.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO%20at%20Fresards%2019JN2011/DSC00074.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO%20at%20Fresards%2019JN2011/DSC00075.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO%20at%20Fresards%2019JN2011/DSC00076.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO%20at%20Fresards%2019JN2011/DSC00077.jpg~original

[Keith Seymore]

Ever gone into work on your day off, just to see what was going on?

K

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Bakers%20Log%20Cabin%20Days/0626111436-1.jpg~original

[Keith Seymore]

Dad driving Pete Seaton's car (far lane) B/FX Final Round, Indy Nats 1963. Jim Wangers in the Swiss Cheese Cat in the near lane:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/Royal/100_7583.jpg~original

And here's how the day ended -

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Royal/Thompson2007.jpg~original

K

[Keith Seymore]

June 11, 2012:

Today marks the start of my 33rd year with General Motors; It was 33 years ago today I walked through the doors at Chevrolet Flint Assembly and the rest, as they say, is history (...except the stuff that hasn't happened yet. That wouldn't be history - lol).

So - I celebrated by going to the Widetrackers Dustoff yesterday. Beautiful weather and lots of nice cars.

First time in many years that it did not rain during the event. I had been waiting to do this, so it was my first opportunity to display the GTO hooked to the Grand Prix by using the old towbar. My brother in law also brought the Lemans convertible down making it the first time all the family Pontiacs had been in the same place since dad passed away.

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Dustoff%202012/DSC00656.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Dustoff%202012/DSC00805.jpg~original

Link to the full compliment of car show photos is here:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=700643

K

[Keith Seymore]

September 2012:

Fall means September, which is when a bunch of birthdays happen in my family including Dad's, my sister - and the GTO.

It was 48 years ago this month when Dad and I headed down to Royal to pick the car up. We've had a couple small outings, in the spirit of celebration -

My wife needed to go to the bank so (since I knew I had a captive audience) I busted the old goat out to run into town:

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO/GTOLaura.jpg~original

We also had a little local church car show last weekend and Eric White (gtoric) convinced me to bring one of the cars out for display. The GTO got called upon for that one, too, since it was so close by.

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Community%20Church%20Show%202012/DSC00920.jpg~original

There was a guy there with a newly purchased black '73 Laguna so during the course of the conversation he convinced me that I should bring mine as well. I ran back to the house (...literally - like a mile, on foot...) and drove back in the Chevelle.

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Community%20Church%20Show%202012/DSC00919.jpg~original

Some other notable Pontiacs:

Marc White - '67 GP convertible:

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Community%20Church%20Show%202012/DSC00924.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Community%20Church%20Show%202012/DSC00923.jpg~original

Eric White - '67 GTO:

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Community%20Church%20Show%202012/DSC00925.jpg~original

One of the visitors said "hey, that's pretty cool that you were able to find a drawing that's just like your car...." - lol.

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Community%20Church%20Show%202012/DSC00926.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Community%20Church%20Show%202012/th_DSC00916.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Community%20Church%20Show%202012/th_DSC00972.jpg

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Community%20Church%20Show%202012/th_DSC00989.jpg

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Community%20Church%20Show%202012/th_DSC01001.jpg

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Community%20Church%20Show%202012/th_DSC01003.jpg


All in all I think there were just over 100 cars on the property. Pretty nice representation of Pontiacs, many of whom are in the Widetrackers Chapter of the POCI.

K

[Keith Seymore]

November 2012:

Thanks to Bill Nawrot (YNOBIL) for letting me know my GTO was in a new calendar -

This is the David Newhardt GTO calendar for 2013. There's a car from each year from '64 - '74 (two '65's - as there should be ;)) and a 2004.

In my case the photos were taken in November of 2007 and were from the same batch used in the big GTO book.

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO/GTOCalendar1.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO/GTOCalendar2.jpg~original

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/GTO/GTOCalendar3.jpg~original

[Keith Seymore]

Crazy Story: June 2015:

I had another one of those really unusual, crazy "It's a small world" coincidences today....

My church is large enough to need a "traffic team", and we utilize help from the Oakland County Sheriff's deputies to assisting getting cars in and out of the parking lot off the main road.

Naturally, I help park (...where else could I get "paid" for standing in the road and watching cars go by?...) and was visiting with the Deputy assigned to the north lot. I had brought him his two-way radio and we were shooting the breeze when I noticed his nametag:

It said "P. Deesen".

I asked him "do you happen to know a fella named Paul Deesen?"

"Paul Deesen Sr?" he said. "I'm Paul Deesen Jr".

Unbelievable. For those of you not already familiar with Paul Deesen (Sr) - he's the guy that designed the GTO emblem. And invented the red line tire. And designed the '65 Gran Prix. Among other things.

At any rate, we had a really nice visit. Very pleasant young man and it sounds like he enjoys his father's antics as much as we do.

Hopefully, I don't get any other chance encounters with Officer Deesen while I'm out driving one of my Pontiacs.

;)

K

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=365646&d=1401663722

[Keith Seymore]

June 2014:

Sunday was Father's day (...which I didn't realize), so that means the "Eyes on Design" concours event at the Edsel Ford estate (...which I forgot about).

JMT455 was good enough to start a thread so I tagged along and stuck my pictures over there:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=755163

I didn't take a car, but did get a kick of out this:

Spectators and participants get this nice, glossy print program commemorating the event.
http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Eyes%20on%20Design%202014/DSC02871_zpsf86641bc.jpg~original

I was flipping through (..and flipping through...) and I made it all the way to the very last page before I saw this familiar nondescript black '65 GTO...

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Eyes%20on%20Design%202014/DSC02872_zps39a408a3.jpg~original

This photo is from the 2010 event.

Whew! That was close! Almost made it the whole day before running across my GTO in print somewhere...

(lol)

K

[Keith Seymore]

GTO build sheet, rescued from on top of the fuel tank:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=376570&d=1411039970

[Keith Seymore]

September 2015:

Well - it was bound to happen....

Took the GTO to the hardware store over the weekend and rolled over 5000 miles.

It was kind of a big deal (emotionally) for me. I knew it wouldn't stay under 5000 forever - I took it to church a couple weeks ago and figured that would be the day. Unfortunately it landed at 4998.8, so that gave me a couple more weeks to think about it. The trip yesterday blew that number away.

I'm over it now, though. Anything less than 10,000 is ok with me.

;)

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=409192&d=1443439580

[Keith Seymore]

August 2016:

The big news I suppose is that we were able to execute a photo shoot with the GTO. This took place last Sunday evening at a small local airstrip with photographer Al Rogers.

The idea is for future publication in one of the enthusiast mags in the November/December timeframe. I have already provided the accompanying text (1000 words, first person).

K

[Keith Seymore]

December 2016:

Here's the internet version:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/classic-cars/5000-mile-unrestored-1965-pontiac-gto-was-a-dragstrip-warrior-when-new%E2%80%94and-is-still-in-the-same-family/ar-AAjeNnY?li=BBnb4R5

The print version is scheduled for this month's Muscle Car Review, hitting news stands on December 9th.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Since I can't seem to add this to my photo album I'm going to stick it here for future reference.

It's hard to say from a black & white photo but this could be our '63 sitting behind Royal.

Some defining features:

Silver on the front header panels, surrounding the grilles
Silver paint around the body side trim
Body colored wheels
Standard (non remote) mirror
Royal sticker on the sail panel

K

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=466392&d=1509233948

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=466393&d=1509234013

[Keith Seymore]

Another thread reminded me that I took some pictures during my summer vacation that I never got around to posting -

This is from Ludington, Michigan and is the original location of Stevenson Motor Sales, which is the agency my Grand Prix was sold through.

It is a small swap meet/flea market now.

K

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=496604&stc=1&d=1540997430

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=496607&stc=1&d=1540997682

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=496608&stc=1&d=1540997748

[Keith Seymore]

November 2018:

And - this just in:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=497169&stc=1&d=1541613844

(Didn't see that coming).

K

[Keith Seymore]

August 2019:

Snagged a few pics at the Pontiac Transportation Museum while cooling off on Friday during the Dream Cruise weekend:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=518245&stc=1&d=1566308690

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=518246&stc=1&d=1566308719

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=518247&stc=1&d=1566308719

[Keith Seymore]

December 2019:

Got some nice coverage in the new "Lost Musclecar Dealers" book:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=526631&stc=1&d=1576238605

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=526632&stc=1&d=1576238609

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=526633&stc=1&d=1576238613

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=526634&d=1576238618

[Keith Seymore]

June 2020:

Got a "new" Grand Prix yesterday -

This has been a long time coming. I've put about 10,000 miles on it since I've owned it (got it in Sept of '07).

K

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=542013&d=1591625065

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=542014&d=1591625072

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=542015&d=1591625077

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=542016&stc=1&d=1591625083

[Keith Seymore]

Some additional internet references for the GTO:

Original/One owners: http://www.oneownercollectorcar.com/index.php/cars/onefamily/384-1965-pontiac-gto-factory-lightweight-keith-seymore

Wild about Cars article (Eric White): http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-bin/pub9990327521141.cgi?categoryid=9940367363431&action=viewad&itemid=9990396621018

Performance Years photo album: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/album.php?albumid=184

[Keith Seymore]

June 2018:


I received a note that stated the Gilmore Museum (the "Red Barns") in Hickory Corners Michigan was looking for a GTO for their musclecar display til April 2019.

I thought "hey - free secure, heated storage through next winter". (lol)

So I dropped the car off yesterday afternoon. My wife and I looked around while they got the car situated in the display - front and center. (My apologies to Dan and Dennis Jensen for displacing their car).





http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=485473&stc=1&d=1529189703

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=485474&stc=1&d=1529189721

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=485475&stc=1&d=1529189735

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=485476&stc=1&d=1529189748

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=485477&d=1529189770

And updated display:

The Gilmore has re-arranged a bit and moved the muscle car display into a different room.

One of my buddies was kind enough to send a couple photos.

I was there in the middle of October for an outdoor Blues fest and to check on things but they hadn't made the switch yet.


http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=497075&stc=1&d=1541521861

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=497076&stc=1&d=1541521879

Right now the plan is for the GTO to stay there through April of 2021.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Something I've wanted to do for quite a while:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=522199&stc=1&d=1571166710

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/hotrod001/63Cat.jpg~original

[Xplantdad]

Thank you again Keith...for sharing...it was awesome to read it all!:biggthumpup:

[Keith Seymore]

Not GTO related, but Pontiac related:

April 2010:

It's that time of year; I suspect dads all across America are being asked to drive their kids around "in an old car", and my house was no exception.

Last night was my turn - took the kids for a ride and then dropped my second oldest daughter at her Senior Prom. We managed to get a few (silly) shots amidst all the seriousness:

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Grand%20Prix/100_0216.jpg~original


Keen eyed observers might notice the similarity between this photo (above) and the one I am attaching below:

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Grand%20Prix/GrandPrixTechCenter1.jpg~original

My daughter popped that pose without any prompting from me. She must have seen "Marilyn" in the promotional pictures somewhere along the line and remembered.

I love you, sweetie!

[Steve Shauger]

Hi Keith what an amazing journey you and your father have travelled. Being there along side your dad was true blessing. The level of passion and involvement in racing, car hobby, and historian is astounding. The wealth of knowledge you've shared is very much appreciated by this site and our members!!!!

You might have noticed there will be a new feature My Garage & Story. This thread may be a good fit.

Here's a link:

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=163818

[TimG]

Keith, thank you for putting all of this information together. What a great time in automotive history the 60's were and you and your dad were in the middle of it all.

[Burd]

Cool story, I gotta check out that museum. And the PTM in Pontiac as well