Pricing / values

[ALLZS]

I see lots of places that give you a guide on restored cars and there value but is there any that show survivor pricing I know it will depend on the condition of the car just don't know how to value these cars

[lowmile]

Survivor cars are more experience and gut feeling when it comes to pricing. Each one has to be judged on its own merits.

[GrumpyJeff]

Survivor cars are more experience and gut feeling when it comes to pricing. Each one has to be judged on its own merits.

Great Topic !!! Would be Nice to have something to get you in the ballpark, But as Lowmile has nailed it in his response. That's Probably why there couldn't really be an accurate guide ?

[Lee Stewart]

Restored cars can be broken down as far as cost. The only difference in their pricing would be if the car has the original drive train. And that can affect the price by about 50%. For instance, a restored 1969 Z/28 NOM is around $75,000. With original drive train it jumps to $125,000.

As said, with a survivor, it depends on the condition. Saying original paint isn't enough. What's the condition of the paint? Does it show it's age or is it like brand new? And prices are all over the place. A 1967 L71 Corvette survivor can be as low as $80,000 or as high as $600,000.

[SBR]

Restored cars can be broken down as far as cost. The only difference in their pricing would be if the car has the original drive train. And that can affect the price by about 50%. For instance, a restored 1969 Z/28 NOM is around $75,000. With original drive train it jumps to $125,000.

As said, with a survivor, it depends on the condition. Saying original paint isn't enough. What's the condition of the paint? Does it show it's age or is it like brand new? And prices are all over the place. A 1967 L71 Corvette survivor can be as low as $80,000 or as high as $600,000.

Exactly right Lee. It's really quite difficult to nail down valuations of unrestored cars. That said, if given a choice of the very best restored car vs a super low mile time capsule, I will take the time capsule every time.

[PeteLeathersac]

'

Add owners/buyers to the mix of value variables as some here would be proud to own certain original cars w/ blemishes/failures, even rust if left intact/untouched yet others would think it's pure craziness and couldn't have such a thing in their garage.:hmmm:
:beers:
~ Pete

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[Stefano]

From my perspective, the appreciation for original and unrestored cars of many makes from exotics, to Corvettes, muscle cars and more is increasing.

However, the vast majority of collectors still prefer a glistening piece of over restored jewelry to patina.

Exceptional Survivor type examples tend to demand more than their equivalent restored examples, in my opinion.

[GrumpyJeff]

In 2010 when i chose a 32,000 mile, Original ,Unrestored,California 70 RS Z/28 for the same amount of money as some of the very best restored cars for sale at the time , people thought i was Crazy and weren't shy about telling me so ! Ive never regretted it and it seems alot of the same people have come around and appreciate the car more & more for what it is,than what it isnt. And i do drive it !!!

[MYSTERYCHEVELLE]

A topic that can easily bring a variety of opinions and nothing wrong with that.

I for one think most all of the GUIDES out there are BS and give most buyers and sellers an unrealistic idea of a car’s value. Restored being the main guides.

There are so many variables that create a value: and most of these guides use a Broad Brush and don’t factor in all those things that can’t be known until you know the car being discussed.

Original sheetmetal. Color Combos. Drivetrain options. Seat options. Docs. Verified Numbers and Docs. Quality and Correctness of restoration. Repro parts vs Original and NOS. Known Owner hx. How long ago painted/restored. The variables go on and on. Ballpark values can be had but in my experience... the GUIDES are not worth it to most. Just my opinion

[tom406]

I agree with Stefano-I think the market for survivors has come around, and has finally grown enough to push their value a bit beyond the best restored cars, but the market for restored cars is bigger and the two sets of buyers don't overlap as much as some would think. I still think the best examples of each still end up in the same basic neighborhood, if you're just trying to get an idea of what it might cost to play in that game.

[Steve Shauger]

Survivor vehicle collectability is virtually identical to artwork, guns, coins, stamps, pottery etc....

Desirability in this case means performance oriented cars, not a grocery getter or low performance cars with one-off options(I love those) next is Condition, History, Documentation/provenance and Awards/ verification.

Lets not mistake cars that survived, to those true well preserved survivor cars. Mileage is meaningless if a car has been either restored or a large amount of original components are missing.

There has always been a strong niche market, and the right car with all the above elements ...will set records. I know of and have certified a few..

[napa68]

This is a great discussion. I have nothing to contribute at this point, but find this discussion from the contributors very informative........thank you!

Tim

[60sStuff]

From my perspective, the appreciation for original and unrestored cars of many makes from exotics, to Corvettes, muscle cars and more is increasing.

However, the vast majority of collectors still prefer a glistening piece of over restored jewelry to patina.

Exceptional Survivor type examples tend to demand more than their equivalent restored examples, in my opinion.

Exactly, I agree with the above statements.

I’ve been attracted for decades to Anything Factory Original (hopefully in decent or better condition) that was built by the Original manufacturer.
This could be Automobiles, Bicycles, Guns and Toys.

I know this saying “It’s only Original once” gets a lot of use, but so true.

Years ago when I would take a muscle car and/or one of my Schwinn Stingrays to a show, there would be a guy or two that would come up to me and say, you should have that painted ..... thanks but please go away.

Things have changed.
Now, those Factory Original items are being appreciated and respected for their History and how they were actually assembled with (paint runs, door gaps, overspray, etc.), acceptable flaws.

Setting a price, that’s difficult.

I love the Unrestored / Survivors of anything old and enjoy seeing them here on this great forum.

Chris

[EZ Nova]

I agree with Stefano-I think the market for survivors has come around, and has finally grown enough to push their value a bit beyond the best restored cars, but the market for restored cars is bigger and the two sets of buyers don't overlap as much as some would think. I still think the best examples of each still end up in the same basic neighborhood, if you're just trying to get an idea of what it might cost to play in that game.

I agree with Stefano on you on his comments. BUT not sure about the 2 sets of buyers?

I the the groups of buyers that can afford the BEST OF THE BEST restored to 100% cars, can also afford the survivors and would look for them as well mostly because it comes down to the fact there just isn't that many survivors out there? You can always look for and buy a restored example of a car, say 1970 Boss 429. But now go look for a survivor 1970 Boss 429, there just isn't that many. So the UBER rich don't care. Like my late friend who just passed told me, "IF I WANT, AND WANT IT BAD ENOUGH, NO ONE WILL OUT SPEND ME I JUST DON'T CARE". Now those are the types that will drive the survivor's market because just about anyone can go and buy $150,000 restored car if there serious. But when the guy who want what not too many has or can have, that's what drives the $$$ and that's what I think your seeing with the survivors market now.

R.I.P. Ken

[njsteve]

Ballpark figure... on a car that is in 99.9% perfect, original condition and I'm talking Vintage Time Capsule Award kind of condition - I would take the value of a 1,000 point show car that was restored by an expert in their field, to perfect conditon...and then double that. That is the ballpark value of an untouched car.

You are talking about a moment of captured time; a dinosaur frozen in a chunk of amber; a piece of history; an example of original artwork painted by the master's hand himself, etc., Like a Stratavarius violin that is in its original condition.

The people that appreciate these type of cars are ones who are looking for a frozen moment in time, one that will always be that age, forever. And there are precious few examples of these cars that are ever brought to light.

If you try to refinish it, or make it "better," or more perfect-er according to your perceived ideal of what it once was according to your memory, you are diminishing the value instead of increasing it.

[njsteve]

I would add this: these type of "dinosaur in amber" cars really are a type of prison. And if you take one on, you are basically going to be the warden of that prison for a set amount of time until you see fit to parole it to the next warden.

I truly enjoyed my time with Enrico's 73 SD-455, but once he passed on, I felt it was time to release it to the next "warden" so that person could oversee the car during its next consecutive prison sentence. ;-)

[daleone3]

Great thread, all comes down to personal preference. Do you want the shiniest, the fastest or the as built car? As the owner of a 76 Formula with now 8400 original miles, I take more pride in being the caretaker than I would if it has been restored or fluffed at some point in its life. I like the minor imperfections from the factory, the quirky clock that works sometimes and the somewhat shiny but original paint job that was applied 45 years ago. In terms of value, who knows. Trends come and go but to me there will always be someone out there ready to take on the role of "warden" or "caretaker" for this when I am done and hopefully be one of my daughters.

[MYSTERYCHEVELLE]

I think it’s easy to get away from the original topic at hand too. Is it possible to have a GUIDE to Pricing for Survivor Cars like Restored cars?

I personally don’t think so as I’ve said, I put no faith in the current guides for restored cars so Survivors would be even more difficult. Less comparable examples to even guess.

[Tidmack]

I think it’s easy to get away from the original topic at hand too. Is it possible to have a GUIDE to Pricing for Survivor Cars like Restored cars?

I personally don’t think so as I’ve said, I put no faith in the current guides for restored cars so Survivors would be even more difficult. Less comparable examples to even guess.

I was just talking with a buddy about this topic and insurance came up. He has several under 1,000 mile survivors, and I have a couple that I'd never restore, although some would argue they should be. What if one of the cars is hit at a show or there's an accident in storage? How do we account for diminished value once there's been paintwork done on a vehicle? I've spoken to Hagerty about this, most recently about a year and a half ago when I had several other survivors. They had no answer for me, other than allowing the shop of my choice to make the repair. But, just having to make a repair could lower the value tens of thousands of dollars (or more!) with some cars. I'd like to see some actuaries start crunching some numbers to offer some other insurance options for survivors.

Anyone have some insight with any companies that are already treating survivors differently?

Jeff Tiedke

[tom406]

A friend had that situation happen a few years ago when an original paint 427 Galaxie rubbed against the ceiling of a transporter for 2500 miles.

It was a difficult argument to make then, but is somewhat easier now, with the greater visibility of sales of survivors, barn finds, etc.

In the end, you would have to file a diminished-value type of claim, and then create an argument (hopefully with persuasive sales data) that the vehicle's status from unrestored original to partially restored car has intrinsically made it lose value. And you often have to convince insurance reps or laypeople who won't grasp that idea, especially since it may look "better" to them with fresh paint or newly chromed bumpers.

[Steve Shauger]

I believe one insurance provider was going to offer diminished value policy. There was talk but don't know if they ever offered a policy for this specific purpose. They are only original once so there is a need.

[Lynn]

Steve said: "Lets not mistake cars that survived, to those true well preserved survivor cars."

Ain't it the truth!!!

[firstgenaddict]

I believe one insurance provider was going to offer diminished value policy. There was talk but don't know if they ever offered a policy for this specific purpose. They are only original once so there is a need.

We have a fleet policy through I believe Hagerty, on the survivors they are valued higher than a similar restored car, in addition I am sure that we discussed diminished value in the coverage.

I will check for sure on the diminished value, however I know that topic was discussed with me -

As for survivors... I love them - any make or model, love seeing the way they were REALLY put together.
I tell people looking that you need to make your list of must haves and then put them in order...

My list after structural soundness were - Original paint, engine never out never apart, good clean original interior, completeness of $$ items, colors - I preferred Mulsanne over bright blue or silver over blue, options.
If someone told me I would buy a Brandshatch Green LT1 I would have called them a liar,
However it clicked my first 4 and the options list are great for solid lifter car - PS PB PW and M20 3.55 which I find to be a great drivers combo.