Avoided disaster today

[Richls5]

I recently sold my 70 ls5 Chevelle and have been looking for a replacement. I found a 70 ls5 phathom blue m22 car 5 hours from home claimed to be original paint and interior matching numbers. I arrived at the car around 8am after leaving home at 2:45 instantly saw the paint was for sure lacquer everything but the door panels was original as well. Vin stamp seemed off but I’m not expert I then checked the casting date I see H 25 70 car was built 4th week of February 1970 I said that’s odd. Look at again I’m for sure 100% seeing H 25 70 the owner has no idea. Get the car on the lift see a large oil plug near the oil filter I said to the owner was this 4 or 2 bolt when you rebuilt the engine? He says 4 I said I’ve seen enough that’s a re stamp he claims there’s no way. I explained it all to him. He understood he was asking 70 I offered 55 he declined said 65. I returned 60 he said 63 is bottom
Dollar. I drove 5 hours home without the car questioning my decision. The only thing it retained was the m22 everything else wasn’t the born with stuff

[Postsedan]

I have been in your shoes numerous times....it was not meant to be.
It is very frustrating, but you are way better off. Another opportunity will come your way.

Dan

[Zedder]

Sorry to hear that, but you’ll be glad you passed after the dust settles. I flew from Toronto to Dallas once to look at what was supposed to be a 67 Z28. Rented a car, drove 30 minutes to the guy’s house and was back in the car in 10 minutes. Car was a fake. I actually got back on the exact same plane that I flew down on for my flight home!

[Lynn]

I think about 80% of the guys that own faked cars have no clue. They were taken.

[njsteve]

I had one of those incidents too. Two actually. Drove 18 hours into Canada to see a "totally restored" big block 69 Pace Car Camaro. Got there and could see from the driveway that the "restorer" had welded on new repro quarters OVER the old quarter panels. It was like looking at one of those characters on the "Botched Surgery" TV shows. I just shook my head, got back into my truck and trailer and drove all the way home.

Second one was also a 69 big block pace car with an "all original, born-wth drivetrain". Flew out to Arizona. The car looked nice but when I looked at the engine casting date it was obviously a 1968 block that someone had chiseled off the side of the "8" make it a "9". You could see the chisel marks through the fresh orange paint. The seller suppsoedly had no idea and even did the "Home Alone" hands holding his face pose, when I told him.

[Charley Lillard]

Rich...If you post the vin it might save someone else the time wasted going to look at it.

[Richls5]

The owner said he’s going to keep the car for now he seemed pretty upset about it. I think because it was his dads car who bought it under the impression it’s legit. I told him it’s still a cool car someone would like to own just be honest. The build date of the engine was to early too now that I look back at my texts. 2/22 is the date it says it was assembled. Every Chevelle I’ve owned that’s numbers matching the engine is atleast a month earlier than the cars build date not a week prior

197143

[Richls5]

197144

[the427king]

Consider yourself lucky that he didnt take your offer .

[Richls5]

Consider yourself lucky that he didnt take your offer .

Eh it was a nice car regardless of the re stamp the underside was very clean I couldn’t find rust anywhere on the car

[napa68]

Had the same type of deal with a 69 Z recently. I only traveled 45 minutes for that.

I hate the idea of telling someone that something significant is not correct, but it's the right thing to do IMO

[GotGrunt]

The build date of the engine was to early too now that I look back at my texts. 2/22 is the date it says it was assembled. Every Chevelle I’ve owned that’s numbers matching the engine is atleast a month earlier than the cars build date not a week prior.

I had a Baltimore built 1972 Chevelle SS U-code years ago with one of the tightest grouping of parts I’ve ever seen.

5/30/72: engine assembly date with VIN & broach marks present
6/1/72: transmission assembly date with VIN present
5/25/72: rear end assembly date
06A build date on the trim tag

In my honest opinion and experience, the car and stamps were all legit. I figured the car may have been held up on the body side and possibly pushed into the second week of June or later. This was not a high dollar car that someone would have the incentive to go through all the trouble to fake.

[ELEFUNTMAN]

I drove from California to Illinois to pick up a 65 Stingray, owner said it was "matching numbers", put it on the lift, wrong trans, he also said no rust, it was horrible underneath, spliced brake lines, frame in bad shape. I said to him the frame is rusted real bad, so he taps the frame with his finger and says , no, can't put my finger through it! I learned rust evaluation is different depending on where you are from! I made an offer also, it was a blessing he didn't accept. Journey home with an empty trailer led me to a nice 67 coupe on Craigslist, the right one will come along!

[SS427]

Tonawanda stamp clearly a restamp. Great that you did not buy it.

I flew out to California to check out an LS6 convertible for Roger Rodas and Paul Walker that they had just purchased. 5 minutes after arriving I had to give them the bad news that it was once a small block Malibu. It was a beautiful restoration with great paperwork (fake). Even the best car enthusiasts/collectors get taken.

[the427king]

Need to be careful with some "inspectors". They see a buyer with money wanting a car , and rather than get thier inspection fee they see an opportunity to tell the buyer the car he is looking at is either no good or overpriced,so the inspector can push another car to him...ask the 2 members here that passed on my buddies copo only tp get a shiny clone. They were both sold fake showcars, but they did save 30k, and the inspector made 10 or 20k for himself .Great racket.Be careful

[SS427]

That is why you hire an honest and professional inspector and not a "flipper". One that is an expert on one or a couple of specific types of cars (in my case, 1970 Chevelles ONLY) instead of someone who will inspect anything for a buck. The only time I ever 'suggest' a client to pass is if the car is fake, restamped or has fake paperwork. If the car is a turd he will read that in my 11 page report. If it is overpriced, that is not for me to decide and is totally between the buyer and the seller.

[tom406]

I'm going to weigh in here since I've been doing appraisals since the mid 90's and specific pre-purchase inspections for the last decade or two and feel like my two cents might be relevant. The appraisal/inspection field is largely unregulated-the regulations that do exist vary from state to state and are mostly in the insurance claim realm. First and foremost, you need to interview and do some research on the person or company you're looking at hiring. The bulk of auto appraisers out there are geared toward the largest easiest market-evaluating late model damage claims. Many of the field inspectors don't know or understand vintage cars. However, many appraisers still come from a vintage car background-like me. You need to identify them and make sure they are on the same page as you as far as knowledge and what to look for.

I agree with Rick that someone with a good reputation who is an expert in a single marque or model are the ideal (and I would be the first in line to pay Rick if I was looking at buying a six figure LS6), but they are often booked out/unavailable. I will inspect any vehicle for my fee-but I'm clear with my customers about what vehicles I'm most familiar with and what my limitations are. I'm much more comfortable determining what is correct on a 1966 Corvette or Mustang compared to a 1966 Ferrari or Porsche, but I've been around enough to know what a "good" car is. For the purposes of this discussion, it might be time or money-wise to hire someone like me quickly and somewhat locally for less than $500 to determine whether or not the vehicle is worth securing a deposit, or justifies the effort and expense of putting someone like Rick, Roy Sinor, JM or Galen on a plane to perform a final inspection before transferring funds.

This is another area where inspectors have to have scruples. I've spoken about how I can't just buy the the cars I'm hired to look at without a glaring conflict of interest. As Rick says, if I'm hired to look at a car, my job is to look at the car-not tell them where a better car or a better deal is. That's a different job. I've only offered up "options" after they pass on the vehicle at hand and later explicitly ask me for recommendations, which typically only comes after my report has displayed my expertise and judgement in a way that resonates.

Finally, don't be afraid to still interview people with great reps and listen to your gut if you feel like you're being sold some magic beans. The wheel&deal side of this hobby is seductive and it is absolutely intoxicating when it is lucrative. There are some very knowledgable restorers out there whose quality and correctness standards didn't necessarily stay consistent after they started brokering cars more than they restored them.

[SS427]

In addition to what Tom stated, check out inspector's references and Google them as well and know up front what you are getting for your money. I have been asked several times over the years (for a LARGE sum of cash money) to look the other way on some inspections and to not mention some of the bad things I found (restamped drivetrain, fake paperwork, rebody or known history of the car) on my report. If you come across ANY inspector who would take these bribes, my advice to you would be to run and run quickly. It won't be long before these inspectors reputations will follow them and after a while ALL their inspections will be questioned and people will second guess every car with their stamp of approval on it. That car could be yours. It has happened in the past and will happen again. I can guarantee if I ever have actual in hand proof of this happening I will publicly bury them. It floors me when I see prominent members of this hobby stooping to this level and once again, all over the proverbial dollar meanwhile likely screwing one of their friends who might be the one to later purchase one of these cars. Inspectors can save you tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars on a possible purchase so it is very wise to hire one, just make sure you know who you are getting. Cheaper is not always better and the very expensive ones sometimes come with a catch. About a year ago I was told by someone that he hires "X" to do his inspections because he will certify their car as being real no matter what it takes. Seriously?

[carnut4life]

I feel your pain Rich. I've been looking for a "real" red or gray LS5/M22 equipped 70 Chevelle for two years now and 5 of the 6 cars I've looked at have been listed as #'s matching or having a build sheet to document them have turned out to be a re-stamp or the build sheet is fake. The real one I found on craigslist had some poor floor and trunk repairs done before the seller bought it so I passed figuring I'd regret it later. I'm starting to wonder if I made a mistake letting this one go? It had a nice build sheet and window sticker and the M22 was the only major part that wasn't "born with" but at least it was a 71 CT warranty replacement.

Most, but not all 70 Chevelle's I see offered for sale today are built up cars by shops looking to capitalize on the current trend of many buyers not caring if the car is real or documented as long as it's pretty. An individual has to be willing to spend significant time studying critical details I won't mention here or pay someone who is an expert to make sure your getting what's advertised. I think there are officially more 70 Chevelle Super Sports out there now than what Chevrolet built, just took them a while to catch up to the 69 Z/28's. Do your homework and be very careful if your looking for one of these cars, it's truly a jungle out there!

[Richls5]

the dealers are making it impossible to find them too. theres hardly any private sellers and if there is a dealer scoops the car up instantly and then has it listed a week later for 20-30K more

[the427king]

Great paint, bad undercarriages, clones,and no paperwork. .....those are the cars that sell quick. Very few dealers have any real cars. Its all about financing them, and having alot of consignment vehicles on hand. Many people that were at mecum walk right by the placard with the build sheets and docs and just look cars with shine and pop.

[dykstra]

That is why you hire an honest and professional inspector and not a "flipper". One that is an expert on one or a couple of specific types of cars (in my case, 1970 Chevelles ONLY) instead of someone who will inspect anything for a buck. The only time I ever 'suggest' a client to pass is if the car is fake, restamped or has fake paperwork. If the car is a turd he will read that in my 11 page report. If it is overpriced, that is not for me to decide and is totally between the buyer and the seller.

I'm going to weigh in here since I've been doing appraisals since the mid 90's and specific pre-purchase inspections for the last decade or two and feel like my two cents might be relevant. The appraisal/inspection field is largely unregulated-the regulations that do exist vary from state to state and are mostly in the insurance claim realm. First and foremost, you need to interview and do some research on the person or company you're looking at hiring. The bulk of auto appraisers out there are geared toward the largest easiest market-evaluating late model damage claims. Many of the field inspectors don't know or understand vintage cars. However, many appraisers still come from a vintage car background-like me. You need to identify them and make sure they are on the same page as you as far as knowledge and what to look for.

I agree with Rick that someone with a good reputation who is an expert in a single marque or model are the ideal (and I would be the first in line to pay Rick if I was looking at buying a six figure LS6), but they are often booked out/unavailable. I will inspect any vehicle for my fee-but I'm clear with my customers about what vehicles I'm most familiar with and what my limitations are. I'm much more comfortable determining what is correct on a 1966 Corvette or Mustang compared to a 1966 Ferrari or Porsche, but I've been around enough to know what a "good" car is. For the purposes of this discussion, it might be time or money-wise to hire someone like me quickly and somewhat locally for less than $500 to determine whether or not the vehicle is worth securing a deposit, or justifies the effort and expense of putting someone like Rick, Roy Sinor, JM or Galen on a plane to perform a final inspection before transferring funds.

This is another area where inspectors have to have scruples. I've spoken about how I can't just buy the the cars I'm hired to look at without a glaring conflict of interest. As Rick says, if I'm hired to look at a car, my job is to look at the car-not tell them where a better car or a better deal is. That's a different job. I've only offered up "options" after they pass on the vehicle at hand and later explicitly ask me for recommendations, which typically only comes after my report has displayed my expertise and judgement in a way that resonates.

Finally, don't be afraid to still interview people with great reps and listen to your gut if you feel like you're being sold some magic beans. The wheel&deal side of this hobby is seductive and it is absolutely intoxicating when it is lucrative. There are some very knowledgable restorers out there whose quality and correctness standards didn't necessarily stay consistent after they started brokering cars more than they restored them.

In addition to what Tom stated, check out inspector's references and Google them as well and know up front what you are getting for your money. I have been asked several times over the years (for a LARGE sum of cash money) to look the other way on some inspections and to not mention some of the bad things I found (restamped drivetrain, fake paperwork, rebody or known history of the car) on my report. If you come across ANY inspector who would take these bribes, my advice to you would be to run and run quickly. It won't be long before these inspectors reputations will follow them and after a while ALL their inspections will be questioned and people will second guess every car with their stamp of approval on it. That car could be yours. It has happened in the past and will happen again. I can guarantee if I ever have actual in hand proof of this happening I will publicly bury them. It floors me when I see prominent members of this hobby stooping to this level and once again, all over the proverbial dollar meanwhile likely screwing one of their friends who might be the one to later purchase one of these cars. Inspectors can save you tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars on a possible purchase so it is very wise to hire one, just make sure you know who you are getting. Cheaper is not always better and the very expensive ones sometimes come with a catch. About a year ago I was told by someone that he hires "X" to do his inspections because he will certify their car as being real no matter what it takes. Seriously?

These discussions are worth every penny and more for the membership fee to be on this great site.
The incredible knowledge on this site always astounds me.

[touspude]

Consider yourself lucky that he didnt take your offer .

I agree with you.

[lowmile]

Honestly I have spent my whole life just loving real old honest cars. Early on the internet made it even more fun, but lately it has come to the point where I find little enjoyment even in the type cars I use to find kinship. I just don't even want to make eye contact with them. Maybe it's just me and it's time to move on, its just hard to walk away from something I cared about so much I just don't feel a a part of what going on and I feel sad about it.

[Teddy]

Honestly I have spent my whole life just loving real old honest cars. Early on the internet made it even more fun, but lately it has come to the point where I find little enjoyment even in the type cars I use to find kinship. I just don't even want to make eye contact with them. Maybe it's just me and it's time to move on, its just hard to walk away from something I cared about so much I just don't feel a a part of what going on and I feel sad about it.

I couldn't have said it better. Reason I sold my Chevelle. No one ever thought I would do that. It still tugs at me but the regrets are few.

[69M22Z]

Honestly I have spent my whole life just loving real old honest cars. Early on the internet made it even more fun, but lately it has come to the point where I find little enjoyment even in the type cars I use to find kinship. I just don't even want to make eye contact with them. Maybe it's just me and it's time to move on, its just hard to walk away from something I cared about so much I just don't feel a a part of what going on and I feel sad about it.
Totally agree with you.

[Richls5]

it has for sure taken the wind out of my sails i dont even want to look at another car unless its come from a memeber here that an expert has checked out first and even then you never know

[SS427]

it has for sure taken the wind out of my sails i dont even want to look at another car unless its come from a memeber here that an expert has checked out first and even then you never know

Something else to remember, if the car was inspected by a professional and is purchased, then that person sells it shortly after or even years later, you will still want to cover your bases. I have inspected a few cars over the years that were top shelf and full on NOS parts only to have the purchaser buy the car, strip all the NOS and good parts off of it and then resell it making my inspection somewhat worthless. Best to speak with the inspector directly and share 'current' photos of the car and get an updated opinion and in most cases for a small fee. If any time has passed it would pay to just have the car re-inspected.

Also, in most cases the inspector does not own the inspection report, the hiring agent does so you may have to pay for a copy of it or the seller may provide you with it. I will not share my reports unless the hiring agent authorizes its release and then for a fee in some cases.

[Richls5]

Something else to remember, if the car was inspected by a professional and is purchased, then that person sells it shortly after or even years later, you will still want to cover your bases. I have inspected a few cars over the years that were top shelf and full on NOS parts only to have the purchaser buy the car, strip all the NOS and good parts off of it and then resell it making my inspection somewhat worthless. Best to speak with the inspector directly and share 'current' photos of the car and get an updated opinion and in most cases for a small fee. If any time has passed it would pay to just have the car re-inspected.

Also, in most cases the inspector does not own the inspection report, the hiring agent does so you may have to pay for a copy of it or the seller may provide you with it. I will not share my reports unless the hiring agent authorizes its release and then for a fee in some cases.
What makes someone want to do that is beyond me I’ve heard of quite a few guys doing this. Taking parts off survivors or real cars putting re pop stuff back on and selling I really don’t understand it at all

[juliosz]

There’s a well known nos parts supplier in the Detroit area who is infamous at this practice. There’s a lot of that in the Corvette crowd as well. I couldn’t do it but I guess in the end, their car, their rules, buyer beware.

[1967 4K]

I'm feeling the same way you guys are about our hobby. Maybe i'm just getting too old to put up with it. Its about making a buck and they can strip the cars if they choose to, its their car but i don't agree to the practice.
In 2019 i sold an original low mileage 71 FLH Harley to a guy who removed most of the OEM parts that could be replaced by Repop parts and sold the bike as original. Its been going on in the Harley hobby for many years.

Richard