Civil Forfeiture Detroit...Be Aware.

[70 copo]

The laws in MI were historically quite horrendous so reform was signed into law in several years ago, but the city of Detroit pivoted to a different interpretation of the law.

As an example years ago a property owners were served a search warrant on property, but was never charged, nor was any evidence of law breaking found. Law enforcement still seized a restored 1965 NOVA SS and the trailer it was stored in. Camaros, Mustangs, and Ferrari's seized as well in the last decade.

The newest and latest battle involved youtubers Dream cars daily.

Be aware. IF I am understanding this correctly the Detroit police could see you spectating at Woodward and someone turns the tires, and you are simply near the event your car can be selectively seized.

Please do not make this thread political. Increasingly it appears we are having trouble discussing anything serious on the forum without forum rules getting looked at and entire threads deleted as a result.

8BDh4tolLCY

[1967 4K]

Stay south of the Mason Dixon. And people wonder why there’s a population Exodus from the northern tier states.

[70 copo]

Reminds me of the nightmare endured by COPO Pete (Simpson)

[CamaroNOS]

I think the nightmare with Pete's car was due to it being stolen and brought to the reserve.

Paul

[hogdaddy]

Here is another perspective on this. Looks like they were going street racing in Detroit in their own words and video of the white car racing a Hellcat.

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[tjs44]

In my early years of street racing in so cal they started arresting people watching the racing.Aiding and abetting is a misdemeanor (watching)was a felony.Tom

[70 copo]

I think the nightmare with Pete's car was due to it being stolen and brought to the reserve.

Paul

Yes, stolen by members of the reservation and the reservation LEO’s were in on it.

[chevyman0429]

In Detroit my brother in law and I was at the street racing scene he got pulled over they confiscated his car the truck he was towing it with and the trailer. It got auctioned off and nobody with his last name could participate in the auction !

[Pusher_Man]

In Detroit my brother in law and I was at the street racing scene he got pulled over they confiscated his car the truck he was towing it with and the trailer. It got auctioned off and nobody with his last name could participate in the auction !

Hot dang. When did that occur?

[Crush]

In Detroit my brother in law and I was at the street racing scene he got pulled over they confiscated his car the truck he was towing it with and the trailer. It got auctioned off and nobody with his last name could participate in the auction !

What years were u into it?

[chevyman0429]

From about 1989- 1999! French road lynch road outer drive Mt Elliot good times

[427TJ]

John Oliver describes civil forfeiture.

3kEpZWGgJks

[Pusher_Man]

I see nothing ☝��

[Kurt S]

This isn't just Detroit.
The US civil forfeiture laws are out of control with no oversight.
Just going through TSA security can trigger it. They took $20K+ from some guy flying to buy a truck. It was drug money, so they said, but no charges.
It's clearly sanctioned fraud with all the wrong incentives for the LEO's.

[Tracker1]

John Oliver describes civil forfeiture.

3kEpZWGgJks


Holy F-ing Crap!!! The art gallery automobile seizure in this video at the 7:50 mark is frightening. And people roll their eyes when someone "exaggerates" and says "police state". Civil forfeiture exists in Canada but my understanding of the tenet is that the items in question must be directly linked to a crime - as in on-paper, court documents. Although we also have a 'Civil Remedies Act' in Ontario that has been the source of a few questionable seizures.

I certainly will never bring cash to the U.S. again to buy a car, that is for sure.

[tom406]

Video of another forfeiture case. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MkeS_0NQUZs&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR2_GJp9wltrIfTXOhkHsOnA9puWJ861QGcSPP9Ji 5EzJaP4zbvtcF09Tms

[NorCam]

I wonder if Law Enforcement could seize anything under a lease, or if seized could they even keep it or sell it if a lien from a lease was registered against it. I would think it would be near impossible for them to seize or dispose of a car with a registered lien and a formal lease.

That's how businesses protect money from lawsuits these days is by channeling cash into leased fixtures within a business structure. Would likely work well to protect cars from seizure too I would think? Perhaps Lynn could comment on that?

[Lynn]

This varies widely from State to State. I did a lot of research 30 years ago, and was able to get a guy's brand new Pontiac Grand Prix out of impound when the DA reviewed our position. Still a giant headache. I have not handled a civil forfeiture case since, but have always taken note when one pops up. In most cases, NO criminal conviction is required to support the forfeiture.

The history of civil forfeiture is fascinating. It actually has its roots in ecclesiastical law from the middle ages, when they thought that a thing that caused death was inherently evil (such as a runaway wagon, or a horse). Most ordinary citizens couldn't read or write and relied on the church to tell them what was right and wrong, which led to all kinds of abuses. The "thing" would be seized, and either destroyed, or sold and the proceeds used for some pious purpose. The "thing" was classified as deodand (given to God) to supposedly help right the wrong. England abandoned that line of thinking AFTER the Revolutionary War (around 1860 or so), but the US continued to follow. So, even though the English don't practice "deodand" law, we do, as part of the English Common Law. As with many things (not just in the law) the origins are lost to history, and we just keep on going "because that's the way we have always done it."

MOST of the civil cases in the last 50 years have been drug cases, and since the 90's funds used to finance terrorism.

There is some help coming from the US Supreme Court that is going to make it more difficult for States to use this. There may have been an even more helpful case since this one, but I don't have time to research it right now. Looks like the tide may be turning back to common sense.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/2/20/18233245/supreme-court-timbs-v-indiana-ruling-excessive-fines-civil-forfeiture

If you want to read an extreme case where a yacht was seized because marijuana was found on board, read this. The owner was in no way involved, and had no way to know that the guys renting the yacht would smoke a joint while there. Great dissent by William O. Douglas. https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=4817068639126152433&q=Calero-Toledo+v.+Pearson+Yacht+Leasing+Co.,+416+U.S.+663+ (1974)&hl=en&as_sdt=6,37&as_vis=1
You will want to skip the first third of the opinion where they are deciding if a Puerto Rico law is a "state law".

[COPO]

Lynn, if property is placed in a trust is it mostly shielded from this abuse? I'm assuming with an irrevocable trust the asset would be pretty much untouchable from civil forfeiture, however, perhaps not too practical for most people to use.

[Lynn]

Don't confuse exemption laws with forfeiture laws. Almost no correlation. In the yacht case above, it would not have mattered how title was held. The "owner" (in your example, the irrevocable trust) receives no protection unless they put forth an "innocent owner" defense that works.

Nothing placed in a revocable trust is protected from a potential creditor just by virtue of being in the trust. Much of what we own is exempt from a potential creditor under homestead laws. In OK, that means, home, one car, household goods and furnishings used for personal family and household use, 100 chickens, five milk cows and their calves, two horses, bridle and tack, all money held in retirement accounts (that's why the Goldman family could never attach OJ's pension money) tools used to make a living, etc. Placing those things in a revocable trust doesn't diminish that protections, but it doesn't increase it. However, I have seen more than one creditor's atty just give up when property is in trust, thinking that collecting would be much more difficult.

The basic rule is "If I can get to it, so can a potential creditor."

As for the irrevocable trust, I don't see how that makes any difference AS FAR AS HOW THE LAWS ARE CURRENTLY ON THE BOOKS. If I loaned you my car, and you used it to transport drugs, it is subject to forfeiture, even if I had no idea what you were going to use it for. It makes no difference if I owe $50k on the car.

That is why I believe the 2019 Supreme Court ruling is such a big deal. I think once folks start using that as a defense, the states will back off. Problem is the legal system takes years to work out all the details. There is an old saying: The wheels of God's justice grind slowly, but exceedingly fine. It is the same way with the legal system. Eventually some state (or municipality like Detroit) will cross paths with the wrong person in an especially grievous manner, and will be willing to take on the state or city in Federal Court. Once one state or city gets hit with a big damage verdict, everyone will back off.

Of course, this is just my opinion. These things take time. Look how long we have been trying to desegregate schools, even though Brown was decided almost 69 years ago, and ordered schools to desegregate "with all due speed".

[Pusher_Man]

Wow, had no idea Lynn is an attorney, obviously. I love reading stuff like this. I think I must have been a lawyer in a previous life.

[70 copo]

The LEO robbers have been busy in California. Sheriff's Deputies have completed a series of Illegal Roadside Seizures resulting in what else? A lawsuit of course.

Armored Car Company Sues Fed Law Enforcement, CA Sheriff After Trucks are stopped and the contents seized.

Since May 2021, Empyreal’s vehicles were stopped and searched by sheriff’s deputies five times—twice in Kansas and three times in San Bernardino County, California. The three San Bernardino stops occurred over the course of just eight weeks, including a stop as recently as last January 6.

Although none of these five stops led to an arrest or even a traffic ticket, three resulted in the seizure of all the legal deposits in Empyreal’s vehicles, totaling over $1 million. Each time deputies seized these legal proceeds, they handed them over to federal agencies to take through federal forfeiture procedures. If successfully forfeited, up to 80% of the proceeds taken through the federal “equitable sharing” program would then return to local sheriffs to spend as they please.


https://ij.org/case/empyreal-forfeiture/

[EZ Nova]

Yes, stolen by members of the reservation and the reservation LEO’s were in on it.

That's a different story then I was told from the man that was FIRST offered the Camaro RIP!
It was relayed to me that they went after the truck and the car was a bonus. Once it was known and the value, the rez cops were brought in to PRESERVE the car and help keeps things calm while getting it returned. I was told they also wanted to keep the motor, but my guy said no. He told me he made it clear that car was to be returned IN ONE PIECE with no damage. He had his security outfit watch the car while it was out there.

That is the story from the rez side.

[70 copo]

That's a different story then I was told from the man that was FIRST offered the Camaro RIP!
It was relayed to me that they went after the truck and the car was a bonus. Once it was known and the value, the rez cops were brought in to PRESERVE the car and help keeps things calm while getting it returned. I was told they also wanted to keep the motor, but my guy said no. He told me he made it clear that car was to be returned IN ONE PIECE with no damage. He had his security outfit watch the car while it was out there.

That is the story from the rez side.

That is a different way of looking at the same outcome. Why did the reservation cops "take no sides" with the allegation of a crime in progress and fail to enforce the law when they could have easily coordinated with off reservation LEO or the Mounted Police and simply arrested the crooks?

True story... On the way to Chicago years ago thieves tried to make off with my entire tow rig, hooked to my trailer, that contained a show car.

They accomplished literally thousands of dollars of damage trying to make off with the truck. They failed because I had installed many layers of anti theft equipment to slow them down.

There was blood in the cab where they lacerated themselves in the attempt.

Why was I so detailed with the layered anti theft equipment? Because I learned the lessons of COPO Pete and I knew that very likely LEO could not be counted on to investigate.

Sure enough:

So we get up go out to the truck first thing, glass from the window they broke to gain access all over the ground, the column was peeled--blood everyplace including fingerprints-- trailer jack was released and the rig was in a "ready to roll" configuration.

So the police arrive call it vandalism and tell me to turn it into my insurance company and then flatly refuse to investigate.

Technically they were just attempting to steal my truck. The enclosed trailer and show car was a "bonus".

[455HO POST]

Pete's car was not recovered without damage.

[1971ls6]

They tore up the motor and frontend curb hopping it. They did tell him that it was the fastest car they have ever stolen!

JJ was the lucky chosen one to go with Pete for the exchange. When they got to the meeting place, it was some old lady, she called and a young kid pulled up in the car.

This was not their first rodeo

[455HO POST]

It's just a Game to them.