More than 201?

[442w30]

Was curious what the thoughts are on the idea that the Z16 total of 201 were hardtops, and that if there was a convertible, it wasn't a true Z16 but had all the equipment. A friend of a friend claims he knows someone in the Detroit area that had a beige 396 convertible.

[scuncio]

Where is that excerpt from?

[PeteLeathersac]

'

Maybe the 'Vert got a '65 L78 396/425 like the '65 Post as this thread:hmmm:...
https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=169745
:beers:
~ Pete

.

[67since67]

Jeff Helms needs to chime in on this...he has told me the story of the one Z16 convert, but all I remember for sure is that it was destroyed. And it may in fact have been beige....

[442w30]

Where is that excerpt from?

From a booklet that has every option available and the number built of each. But it's much more complicated than that. Look at the entry here on ECL codes:

http://chevellestuff.net/qd/terminology.htm

Those are the codes with two letter characters. Sometimes an option, like 3.55 gears, has a dozen ECL codes, all signifying a different application (possibly engine, tranny, and maybe something else). I don't know much about this but this is what I have been able to gather. There probably is a key that shows what each of the codes mean, but AFAIK a few Corvette folks have that key and haven't shared it with anyone. But it's the reason why Corvette info exists, while other Bow Tie vehicles have scant information.

[442w30]

'

Maybe the 'Vert got a '65 L78 396/425 like the '65 Post as this thread:hmmm:...
https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=169745

.

That's an interesting proposition.

But wouldn't it show up in the COPO sheet in the show placard?

[jeffschevelle]

Based on the quantities of the Z16 specific ECL for other Z16 component options in the same book (all of which reflect only 200 units), I believe the 201 in that document reflects the 200 production coupes built at KC plant, plus the one so-called "prototype" coupe built at Baltimore and converted into a Z16 at the tech center and then sold like a demo car. Z16 and L37 are the only two that show 201 units, while the other options show 200. So I believe they just added one to Z16 and L37 when they allowed the prototype car to be sold.

As to the convertible, based on this book's data, it had to be either a tech center conversion done on a 327 Malibu SS convertible, or a COPO order -- Neither of which would show up in this book's ECL tallies. If it was a COPO, it would have been built with one of the approx 20 extra L37 IX engines that were built at Tonawanda.

[442w30]

What's the paperwork that shows 1 of those 2-door sedans had an L78?

[1967Z28]

I thought I read some info somewhere indicating there were two of those "prototype" or pilot Z16s built at Baltimore and converted at the Tech Center. Not true?

[Keith Seymore]

From a booklet that has every option available and the number built of each. But it's much more complicated than that. Look at the entry here on ECL codes:

http://chevellestuff.net/qd/terminology.htm

Those are the codes with two letter characters. Sometimes an option, like 3.55 gears, has a dozen ECL codes, all signifying a different application (possibly engine, tranny, and maybe something else). I don't know much about this but this is what I have been able to gather. There probably is a key that shows what each of the codes mean, but AFAIK a few Corvette folks have that key and haven't shared it with anyone. But it's the reason why Corvette info exists, while other Bow Tie vehicles have scant information.

I'm not sure that does make it more complicated; using the example from the link even if the broadcast code was L34-TX or L34-TW they both would fall under the L34 RPO and be counted as such.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Here's how it appears on a truck SPID from the era.

In this case the engine is an L47, with an ECL of "20" (whatever that means, as you say).

The ECL describes additional detail beyond the RPO, defining proliferation for that component. For an engine, it might define AC vs None, multiple carb vs single, manual trans vs auto, California vs Federal emissions, etc. For a rear axle, it would define ratio, locking vs open, perhaps special brake friction material, etc.

So while we know what the ECL does - we don't necessarily have the secret decoder ring.

K

[Keith Seymore]

By the time I started with GM (1979) the ECL fell into disuse, so I don't have any firsthand experience with it.

Broadcast codes were still used on the build sheet to facilitate the operations on the line but were no longer reported on the SPID label.

K

[jeffschevelle]

What's the paperwork that shows 1 of those 2-door sedans had an L78?

Go to the link in post #3 above, which shows some of it and discusses other known documentation of that car. It was a COPO car, with a specific COPO number for that one engine, which COPO number appears on the window sticker.

[jeffschevelle]

I thought I read some info somewhere indicating there were two of those "prototype" or pilot Z16s built at Baltimore and converted at the Tech Center. Not true?

Correct. But one was crushed (as both were supposed to have been) and was not sold to the public. So it was not added to the tally of coupes built.

[442w30]

Keith, I've been meaning to follow up with this but life got in the way--stay tuned.

Gonna be in Stanton this weekend?

[Lee Stewart]

https://i.postimg.cc/BvjcpNMW/z16-pg1aa.jpg (https://postimg.cc/kVdbXQ0w)

[Keith Seymore]

Keith, I've been meaning to follow up with this but life got in the way--stay tuned.

Gonna be in Stanton this weekend?

Thanks for the note; no - I've got some other commitments this weekend that will keep me away.

Have fun!

K

[whitetop]

Here is a white Z16 left over ,no big block , has convertible frame with Z16 marking, 160-mph speedometer ,hand cut firewall,etc. Has binders of factory paperwork. This is how it came from the factory but with a SB and painted white.
Another Bellaire Ohio car. Lean to roof fell on it during a storm. A collector has it now and is restoring it.

[1967Z28]

What makes it a Z16 if it was built by the factory with a small block?

[whitetop]

What makes it a Z16 if it was built by the factory with a small block?

I never said it was a z16. It came from the factory with all the z16 parts except the BB

[1967Z28]

Thanks for the clarification.

[EZ Nova]

Was there ever a1965 396 El Camino from GM? I have been looking around and notice a number of site list a 396 option for the El Camino?

[DWR]

I remember seeing one someone posted pulling a boat and it had 396 flags on it. I think it was a GM ad.

[Lee Stewart]

Was there ever a1965 396 El Camino from GM? I have been looking around and notice a number of site list a 396 option for the El Camino?

https://i.postimg.cc/Ss5jZWQJ/0.jpg (https://postimg.cc/9RdW0w7h)

https://i.postimg.cc/3NvNzdW9/0a.jpg (https://postimg.cc/WqsskpGJ)

FULL SIZE:

http://oldcarbrochures.com/static/NA/Chevrolet_El_Camino-GMC_Caballero/1965%20Chevrolet%20El%20Camino%20Brochure/image3.html

I don't see a 396 option listed.

[DWR]

https://www.macsmotorcitygarage.com/california-dreaming-the-1965-chevrolet-surfer-i/

[Unreal]

The pic in the macsmotorcitygarage looks like a photoshop job to me. Still cool, though.

[EZ Nova]

https://www.musclecarfacts.com/chevrolet-el-camino/229-1965-el-camino/

Under engine options is 396/375Hp???

Then it's listed here:

https://www.ss396.com/cars/1965-El-Camino/



This is why I'm inquiring? I heard they were RPO in 1966, but wonder if some lipped through in 1965 since they had the Z16s???

[Lee Stewart]

https://www.musclecarfacts.com/chevrolet-el-camino/229-1965-el-camino/

Under engine options is 396/375Hp???

Then it's listed here:

https://www.ss396.com/cars/1965-El-Camino/



This is why I'm inquiring? I heard they were RPO in 1966, but wonder if some lipped through in 1965 since they had the Z16s???

The largest engine you could order in a 1965 Chevelle or El Camino was the L79 327/350 HP. The 396 did not appear as a regular RPO until 1966. The Z16 was a special run of 200 cars with a one off 396 that was only used for that model run and never again used.

Remember 1965 was the first year of the BB and the 396 was very limited in it's use: Corvette (425HP) and Full Size (325/425 HP).

[EZ Nova]

It's just strange some websites mention that 396/375 opton. I knew about L79 El Co's in 1965, but wasn't sure if there were any 396's. Guess now I do.

Unless something like the company that ORDERED the L79 1966 Nova wagons! I thought finally 1 of those surfaced after all these years.

[jeffschevelle]

The only 65 ElCamino built by Chevrolet with a 396 was the Surfer II concept / show car in the photos in the links posted above. And even that one almost certainly was a transplanted engine installed at the Design facility (that built the car) or at the Tech Center. Not an assembly-line installed engine.

I've always wanted to build a clone of that Surfer Elc. Too many ideas, not enough time! Or energy! Or money!!

[Lee Stewart]

It's just strange some websites mention that 396/375 opton. I knew about L79 El Co's in 1965, but wasn't sure if there were any 396's. Guess now I do.

Unless something like the company that ORDERED the L79 1966 Nova wagons! I thought finally 1 of those surfaced after all these years.

Some websites claim Chevrolet built a number of 1965 Novas with the 327/365 HP Corvette motor.

Some claim there were 1969 427 COPO El Caminos.

The amount of disinformation on the internet is staggering.

When it comes to Chevrolet stats and specs, I like this reference. Go right to the source. It's a good starting point:

https://www.gmheritagecenter.com/gm-heritage-archive/vehicle-information-kits.html

[L72copocamaro]

Some websites claim Chevrolet built a number of 1965 Novas with the 327/365 HP Corvette motor.

Some claim there were 1969 427 COPO El Caminos.

The amount of disinformation on the internet is staggering.

When it comes to Chevrolet stats and specs, I like this reference. Go right to the source. It's a good starting point:

https://www.gmheritagecenter.com/gm-heritage-archive/vehicle-information-kits.html

Most often by people trying to validate something they want to sell and or scam others with.

[442w30]

https://www.musclecarfacts.com/chevrolet-el-camino/229-1965-el-camino/



The problem is you're looking at crap websites.

No way to know except with experience. Consider this the moment you learn this muscle car facts site is not dependable. I'm not into Chevys, but this is one of the few Bow Tie places where I can count on people for coming from a place of knowledge.

[Keith Seymore]

When it comes to Chevrolet stats and specs, I like this reference. Go right to the source. It's a good starting point:

https://www.gmheritagecenter.com/gm-heritage-archive/vehicle-information-kits.html

As part of my job, I used to have to review the information packets from an engineering perspective before they were published.

All of the full size truck documents from about 2000 - 2011 would have my stamp of approval.

K

[Rebelrouser]

Years ago I had access to all the vin's for every Z16 produced. The '67' vin was actually a triple black car. It was one of the last Z16's produced as it was further down the vin sequence list. If I can get into my old laptop-haven't been able for 10 years now- I could search my history of sites I searched. On a side note, they were all built on a convertible frame.

[JoeC]

There were some home built 396 Chevelles in 1965 such as the Grady Bryant Dick Harrell car

[jeffschevelle]

Here is a white Z16 left over ,no big block , has convertible frame with Z16 marking, 160-mph speedometer ,hand cut firewall,etc. Has binders of factory paperwork. This is how it came from the factory but with a SB and painted white.
Another Bellaire Ohio car. Lean to roof fell on it during a storm. A collector has it now and is restoring it.

What makes it a Z16 if it was built by the factory with a small block?

I never said it was a z16. It came from the factory with all the z16 parts except the BB

Somehow I missed the above posts, and pics of that white car. I would be very interested to see the "binder of factory paperwork". Several things weigh heavily against this car coming from the factory with any Z16 parts --

1. It is a Malibu (has trim holes down the side). If they were going to put "left over" Z16 parts (including a 160 speedo) on a non-Z16 car, why would they put it on a Malibu and not an SS?

2. Any "left over" Z16 parts would have been put into service replacement parts inventory. There were approx. 20 extra engines built (ostensibly for warranty replacement purposes, but you could walk in and order one from the parts department if you knew the part number). There were 160 speedo clusters available over the counter. Extras of the rear trim were also made and sold as service replacement parts.

3. Your first post said something about "hand cut firewall". But the firewall clearly shows that is an A/C car. There was nothing "hand cut" on a Z16 firewall.

4. If there was a left over "extra" boxed Z16 frame in the KC plant, then it would have been used on a convertible, not a coupe. Putting it under a small block coupe would require doing a set of one-off broadcast sheets for that car, with different brake lines, fuel lines, trans cross member, etc. Management would not have held up a "build-them-as-fast-as-you-can" assembly line to spec out a one-off small block Malibu that did not have a special engine in it (such as a COPO), just to use up an "extra" frame. They would have used it under a convertible, or put the frame into service parts inventory. Or they would have just thrown the frame away before they would have done all of that to slow down their assembly line.

So, odds are someone found and parted out a wrecked Z16 and all that stuff got put on this car long after it left the factory.

Or maybe this is the car that was sold at Huffman Chevrolet in Farmington, Illinois. Jerry's dad got one of the first Z16's for Jerry to drag race. Within hours of its arrival Jerry started stripping off everything not needed to go racing. Many items (like the PS, PB, AM/FM-Mulitiplex, tach, TOD clock, etc.) were installed on a new small block car on the lot, and added to the window sticker, to recoup some of the high cost of the Z16. I don't recall him saying that they swapped out the speedo cluster, but they may have. That would not explain the frame though.

But the frame can easily be explained if the car was ever wrecked bad enough to need a new frame. Service replacement frames (after a certain amount of time) were ALL boxed. They did that so they only had to stock two frames (one for Elc or Wagon, one for everything else) in inventory, rather than four. This is clearly noted in the Chevrolet parts books from the mid to late 60's.

With all that said, I'd love to be wrong! Please ask the owner to share the binder of documentation to educate us all!

[jeffschevelle]

Years ago I had access to all the vin's for every Z16 produced. ... If I can get into my old laptop-haven't been able for 10 years now- I could search my history of sites I searched. On a side note, they were all built on a convertible frame.

If that list exists, boy I sure hope you can find it! But I am pretty sure you did not just find it on a website somewhere. There are 10 or more Z16 fanatics that have been hunting that list for 40+ years now; so if it ever was on a publicly available website I'm sure one of us would have found it by now!

Legend had it that Vince Piggins had the full list, but when he passed away it was nowhere to be found in his papers. I don't know if that was true or not.

... The '67' vin was actually a triple black car. It was one of the last Z16's produced as it was further down the vin sequence list. ...

All credible stories from people who actually saw the convertible, which were from multiple different sources and pre-internet (so not just someone repeating what they read somewhere else), all say that the Z16 convertible was Sierra Tan with a beige convertible top and either a fawn or saddle interior (so "triple tan"). Triple black sure would have been a better looking choice though!

[Lee Stewart]

https://i.postimg.cc/TwcpGFJW/0.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/SQDJP0KB/0a.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[flyingn]

my old Z16 from the mid 70's