If you found one of these race cars today how would your restore it?

[turbo69bird]

Restore the car stock

Restore the car to as raced

Let’s assume they are all dealer owned cars raced by the dealer themselves . Not privateers
Only because ( for some ) it narrows the complications to some extent.

[Pusher_Man]

I know it’s not an option and doesn’t answer your question but if I found one then I would leave the sucker as is. Old, lettered up race cars peg out the cool meter in my book. Especially if they have original paint and lettering!

[L72copocamaro]

Really loaded question. To me, if it has a pedigree, keep it as raced. Otherwise feel free to do whatever your preference is.

[turbo69bird]

I know it’s not an option and doesn’t answer your question but if I found one then I would leave the sucker as is. Old, lettered up race cars peg out the cool meter in my book. Especially if they have original paint and lettering!

I would fully agree w that, but for arguments sake let’s assume they need a resto.
I’m just trying to gauge which way people prefer these old race cars stock or race. It’s kind of an ongoing ( friendly) argument between two friends. But let’s also assume it’s not totally hypothetical because we are trying to decide if people actually had to put their hard earned $$ up for an actual resto which way they’d go.

[Pro Stock John]

For me it would depend. If we were talking a super rare Camaro for instance, like a ZL1, the car is worth a ton restored.

If we are talking a somewhat rare car but it spent it's whole life as a race car, a '69 Z/28, I'd probably restore it as a race car if it was all cut up already and had ladder bars, tubs etc.

I think when the car has the potential to be worth 6 figures most folks would restore to stock.

[turbo69bird]

Ok well most of those cars pictured are 6 figure + cars

I don’t want to interject what I think at this time because I don’t want to sway things .

[turbo69bird]

Didn’t want to leave the olds guys out.

And since this is probably gonna get ugly w out some parameters let’s assume it’s a stock eliminator car appropriate for the year of the car, pretty much in its stock class form not all caged, tubbed and changed
From
It’s regular form . It’s basically stock w bolt ons and blueprinted, headers, slapper bars or bolt on ladder bars, basically a day 2 race car .

Sorry guys thought this would be easier .

[big gear head]

It would always be a race car to me.

[chevyman0429]

I say there’s plenty of fully restored cars out there and limited old warriors I’d leave them in race car apparel!

[Steve Shauger]

I would lean toward restoring as delivered, unless it was a significant race car with great history.

If it was just tired looking race car I'd leave it alone and preserve. Nothing wrong with a little patina and preserving history.

[tom406]

As much as I like an era-correct untubbed race car restoration, if it’s anything besides a top tier, nationally known car (Sox and Martin, Grumpys Toy, Gas Ronda, etc), I don’t think it makes as much sense financially to restore to as-raced condition vs. as-delivered new. More buyers relate to it as a stock musclecar vs as a regionally campaigned race car.

[PeteLeathersac]

'

Member R68GTO's resto of his '69 9561 Copo 'Rat's Nest' is a great example of this exact situation, click here...
https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=149308
:beers:
~ Pete

.

[turbo69bird]

'

Member R68GTO's resto of his '69 9561 Copo 'Rat's Nest' is a great example of this exact situation, click here...
https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=149308
:beers:
~ Pete

.

Agreed that is a good example . Although idk if that car was a dealer car w factory back door support or not I didn’t read the whole story of the car
Many of the dealer cars were special ordered and supported even with the racing ban in effect.

Sox and Martin was a different story as were most of the hemi cars because they had full factory support as they didn’t adhere to any racing ban. It pretty much was just GM w handcuffs on pretending not to okay that game while some at the factory were supporting the cars “on their own time” these guys back sorted alot of engineering pats out to dealer owned race cars. In the Pontiac world these were royal, knafel, Stephen , towne , garber, and a host of others. I’d imagine the olds world brainbeau and others were supported much the same way chevys were through copo and motion, Berger, yenko

Here’s where the racing ban came from :

https://youtu.be/aQbIwjBXQKA

And here’s an good example
Of a dealer owned factory supported car through the back door system

[1967Z28]

My first preference would be to restore it as the original race car unless that paint scheme (livery) or some other feature of its looks was something that I just couldn't stomach.

[olredalert]

----As far as Pontiacs are concerned the Chicago Area Dealers Asso. 69 Judge that Arnie B campaigned would be a good example of a specially ordered race car. No undercoat, no sealer and other mods done before delivery for the absolute lowest weight possible! That car, I believe, is restored back to as raced condition!.....Bill S

[61 vert]

It seems that the consensus is these each cars should be handled on a case by case basis. Sometimes these famous race cars were built on 6 cylinder production cars and it would make zero sense to restore to as delivered. Also depends on condition . some racecars are to far gone to feasibly restore to original.

[Pro Stock John]

If the car is still in race car trim, I'd like to see it kept that way.

R68's approach was a good one I thought, vinyl decals that can be removed but is running day 2 parts. A person could paint up two hoods, a racing era hood and a stock one. Have two sets of wheels.

I like GM cars and Camaros the most, but I also like other cars like the Thunderbolt. Some of them have not been restored to original, and I'd personally prefer something like the Nazy Crate over one that has lost all it's livery.

[big gear head]

I just couldn't enjoy a as delivered car. All you can do is look at it. I want to drive it like it was intended to be driven, without damaging it. My RS/SS 396 4 speed Camaro would be worth much more if I had restored it to as delivered, but I wouldn't want to own it anymore.

[GrumpyJeff]

I dont wanna say" As delivered" Showroom resto's are a dime a dozen or that they have no personality, because That's how i remember most of them, tearing up the streets when i was a little kid.. But if a car has Stock Eliminator or Super Stock heritage, and has survived relatively intact, even if it was only locally raced. Its a No brainer for me regardless of potential value. If its been cut up and tubbed etc... beyond recogniton i generally dont even have much interest either way. I prefer " Period correct as Raced "

[69 Post Sedan]

Restore as raced.

Here’s the perfect example of a VERY cool COPO that had race history and was appealing to the eye…..then it was restored to assembly line correct…..aka cookie cutter. This car HAD so much character.

Again, this is my opinion but if you were to put the two cars next to each other, I guarantee the race car would get more attention…..and be worth as much…..possibly more.

Kurt :scholar:

[turbo69bird]

It’s amazing to me how good that green 69 looks in the dark green w cragars compared to all the other pics . And I like some of the others.
The ralley green pic is that the same car? Dint like it nearly as much in that color w that stripe. It still looks pretty beefy in the bottom stock pick compared to many I see stock. But that too pic although likely mainly still fairly original overall looks amazing!
Now that we have a. Pretty good idea where the votes are going, I can share my thoughts
I personally think it’s a shame that so many cars have lost what made them so special in the 60s and 70s and went back to stock . Stock was a starting point. That’s about it , I feel like no one left a car completely stock unless it was your dads car or you were a total dork! And let’s face it even the dorks didn’t leave them stock ��. So many weren’t stock that it became cool to put them back to stock . But now so many are stock it’s cool to have the ones that arent stock but period correct, and to me the dealer owned race car is the best of both worlds. It’s what the guys who bought them stock were trying to emulate when they bought. Win on Sunday sell on Monday wasnt a saying for no reason. But that’s just my .02 what do you guys think?

[carnut4life]

I definitely prefer The RatiCal One in its day two or as raced condition but appreciate the owners choice to restore the car as he saw fit, its a great car either way.

I mostly agree with you on your other thoughts but the guys that left them stock were probably more mature than the rest of us that did or would have modified and beat the hell of of them if we were around back then. There are a lot of survivors out there today that had different wheels on them back in the day or had the manifolds and smog system removed for headers so I think the guys that left them totally stock back then were few and far between, which in turn makes the cars they owned even more celebrated 50 years later. Great thread by the way!

[turbo69bird]

I definitely prefer The RatiCal One in its day two or as raced condition but appreciate the owners choice to restore the car as he saw fit, its a great car either way.

I mostly agree with you on your other thoughts but the guys that left them stock were probably more mature than the rest of us that did or would have modified and beat the hell of of them if we were around back then. There are a lot of survivors out there today that had different wheels on them back in the day or had the manifolds and smog system removed for headers so I think the guys that left them totally stock back then were few and far between, which in turn makes the cars they owned even more celebrated 50 years later. Great thread by the way!

Thanks I was hoping it would be a fun thread for everyone . I certainly like the cars both ways I can appreciate both for sure. And in the camaro world both are celebrated , in the Pontiac world however Day 2 doesn’t get the respect it deserves in my opinion . You either see modified, todays stuff on them. Or stock . Period correct restorations are typically seen only on early 62 63 SD cars

JR stock / stock eliminator is what made the muscle car craze in the first place. These lettered up dealer race cars drove the whole muscle car craze and sold all these other cars we see. So to me that’s the pinnacle of muscle cars…. There’s just not much representation of these cars out there today .
That’s not to say they should all be one way or the other, I think all one way and not the other makes for a very boring show no matter which way it is. We all know it started w private guys w shoe polish lettering in the 50s (my dad was one of those guys) but when the dealers got involved and started going crazy w lace, cob webbing, freak drops, endless line, and panelizing etc the cars got interesting . I could page through pictures of 60s early 70 race car paint schemes for hours.

Not to mention JR stock / stock eliminator was filled w the most cunning and talented mechanics racing has ever seen . Grumpy jere stahl , John dianna to make a few of the Chevy guys. Things like leaving a carb loose so the linkage at full throttle would rock it back and create vacuum leak w springs pulling it back forward and down .to make more CFM at WOT were brilliant tricks . Of course it had to be jetted up the same amount to compensate for the air leak . This is why so many stockers woukd be clearing thier engines from loading up back then .
Cutting off the nubs on Brake tensioners so they would not tighten in reverse and have little to no friction, taller front tires for rollout, taller rear tires for more contact patch rather than width which wasn’t allowed, cool cans and other items stock class racers employed. Just brilliant
These stockers IMO should be celebrated

[Pro Stock John]

Seems like a lot of the Hemi Dart guys still race them and have restored them to race trim. That's not so much the case with the GM guys.

[R68GTO]

I've had so dang much fun with my car, I have to pinch myself sometimes. From the people I've met in the hobby to the prior owners it's just been a blast. Having lived the topic of this thread, I'll give my perspective:
If I didn't get to meet Rick Wilkins and Denny Davis and only had a few vintage photos of the car as Rats Nest, I probably would've just done the stock restoration. With the detailed vintage pics showing every paint line and sticker, combined with their personal stories and how much the car meant to them, Denny's Dad, Doug's wife, it gave the car an identity. Hell, they had an image of it on Doug's headstone and he only owned it like 4 years! I felt like I had to get it back to Rat's Nest trim. So I guess at the end of it all, I did it for them more than for me. With the vinyl and the vintage speed parts, it's about $8K worth of "extra expense". Most of the speed parts will likely go on my next project assuming I sell the car in stock trim (I think worth more that way) so I will only be out the cost of the vinyl. Either way, I would do it all over again under the same circumstances. The only change might be to reverse the order....vinyl it up, run the hell out of it, then do the factory resto. Sorry for the long response. I'll end with some pics of the people that inspired the process, and the car of course - even though you've probably seen them already:worship:

[turbo69bird]

I've had so dang much fun with my car, I have to pinch myself sometimes. From the people I've met in the hobby to the prior owners it's just been a blast. Having lived the topic of this thread, I'll give my perspective:
If I didn't get to meet Rick Wilkins and Denny Davis and only had a few vintage photos of the car as Rats Nest, I probably would've just done the stock restoration. With the detailed vintage pics showing every paint line and sticker, combined with their personal stories and how much the car meant to them, Denny's Dad, Doug's wife, it gave the car an identity. Hell, they had an image of it on Doug's headstone and he only owned it like 4 years! I felt like I had to get it back to Rat's Nest trim. So I guess at the end of it all, I did it for them more than for me. With the vinyl and the vintage speed parts, it's about $8K worth of "extra expense". Most of the speed parts will likely go on my next project assuming I sell the car in stock trim (I think worth more that way) so I will only be out the cost of the vinyl. Either way, I would do it all over again under the same circumstances. The only change might be to reverse the order....vinyl it up, run the hell out of it, then do the factory resto. Sorry for the long response. I'll end with some pics of the people that inspired the process, and the car of course - even though you've probably seen them already:worship:


SCCA type road race cars are usually worth a lot more with racing history . Idk if it’s because you can NOT race in the vintage class without a car that actually was once raced and documented as such or what. I think the pure stock guys should do an old Jr stock lettered up class like that personally maybe let guys run off the record for their class for that year car?

There’s classes like NETO and others gasser classes etc. But that’s a bit different.

Idk why a stock showroom (anyone could buy it) car would be worth more (maybe it is) but these cars that were raced many (specially ordered) with factory backing of some kind were the True super cars of their day IMO
One that was recently for sale Jim
Minos old car was restored stock but once was a spectacular race car IMO . I know which way I’d rather have it and which I’d personally pay more .

Jim’s car was an awesome car either way don’t get me wrong like it a lot stock, LOVE it in race trim. This is another car that could be done with vinyl and bolt on race parts. But I don’t think I’d ever change it back .

[turbo69bird]

How popular is Jr stock

560 pages popular 55 ish years later!
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/nhra-junior-stock.201085/

[carnut4life]

I've had so dang much fun with my car, I have to pinch myself sometimes. From the people I've met in the hobby to the prior owners it's just been a blast. Having lived the topic of this thread, I'll give my perspective:
If I didn't get to meet Rick Wilkins and Denny Davis and only had a few vintage photos of the car as Rats Nest, I probably would've just done the stock restoration. With the detailed vintage pics showing every paint line and sticker, combined with their personal stories and how much the car meant to them, Denny's Dad, Doug's wife, it gave the car an identity. Hell, they had an image of it on Doug's headstone and he only owned it like 4 years! I felt like I had to get it back to Rat's Nest trim. So I guess at the end of it all, I did it for them more than for me. With the vinyl and the vintage speed parts, it's about $8K worth of "extra expense". Most of the speed parts will likely go on my next project assuming I sell the car in stock trim (I think worth more that way) so I will only be out the cost of the vinyl. Either way, I would do it all over again under the same circumstances. The only change might be to reverse the order....vinyl it up, run the hell out of it, then do the factory resto. Sorry for the long response. I'll end with some pics of the people that inspired the process, and the car of course - even though you've probably seen them already:worship:

That car looks stunning in either configuration Jim!

[turbo69bird]

Just thought I’d post some stockers , what good is a thread about stockers w/o some eye candy

[turbo69bird]

I’ll post a couple pics of the cars that started the discussion between a friend and I , 69 bird is mine .

But I have the pro stock cars engine in it currently, dual quad RAV. Know both drivers and grew up near the originals dealership.

Black car was sponsored by them but not owned by them the rest were special ordered through Tom nell and owned and raced by the dealership . There’s a Jan article about the pro car that discusses its back door access to parts (specifically an aluminum block) that really set off a firestorm at GM and resulted in the end of the Stephen Pontiac racing program. This was because of the racing ban
Engine pics RAV pic from magazine
RAV dual quad w developmental engineering part number 4 known to exist.
And the engine in the car today just a fun pic I took when checking hood clearance. That engine was tested / tuned in this car temporarily, because the 70 car was delayed.

Article stated aluminumtray was homemade but grumpy and Bill had then exact same tray . 4 hole under the carbs but there’s NO tool marks holes are perfectly punched in correct locations

For some reason I can’t attach the pics of te two pans his and grumps. Tried 5 times. Z

[turbo69bird]

Idk why the larger pic of this pan won’t add but here’s a basic picture of grumps pan
Grump and Eckstrom shared some info but these pans are almost identical .
Eckstrom
Had ZERO other people running Pontiacs in pro stock to share info with he was the only one .

https://youtu.be/RXVyW3WqPrI Video of the pro car in a pro stock parade .Wally booths car makes an appearance too I used to race against that car w the RAIV Stephens car in NETO so much fun .two really rare muscle cars doing what they were meant to do

[DW31S]

What if they are original dealer-owned/sponsored race cars that don’t need to be restored? I think you all know my answer to this one!!!

[JRC99]

Race trim. And I'd be running it down the track constantly, value be damned

[GrumpyJeff]

What if they are original dealer-owned/sponsored race cars that don’t need to be restored? I think you all know my answer to this one!!!

You forget to mention, Running Harder than ever too...

[turbo69bird]

https://youtu.be/oUXrussInXw

Appears to have started life as a 396 car but such a sweet car.
A little
More
Deviation from stock, I’d presume being a SS Vs a stocker but still so cool!

[turbo69bird]

Some more beautiful race cars

[turbo69bird]

Check out the bolts in the slicks on the red car, still have a set of cragars in my garage like that.

[dykstra]

Those pics are AWESOME!!

[BJCHEV396]

I know it’s not an option and doesn’t answer your question but if I found one then I would leave the sucker as is. Old, lettered up race cars peg out the cool meter in my book. Especially if they have original paint and lettering!

Small World...that Mustang Cobra Jet,pictured above,was a local car up here in Ottawa and was owned and raced by Dave Benn and I had a chance to buy it around '73 or '74.Dave worked for a local Cottman Transmission shop and I met him thru a friend.I had just sold my '71 LS5 Camino and was looking for a new ride.I went to see the Mustang and the deal we discussed,if memory serves me,was around $3000 to $3500.00.Dave would install a " more friendly" street gear in the rear and take his name off the body but leave the snake and decals on the car.I thought about it long and hard but I figured that the car would be a cop magnet if I drove it on the street and I was a die hard Chevy guy!I bought a '65 Corvette instead.Wish I remembered more details about the motor and transmission but I don't.Dave sold the car and bought a Camaro and was sponsored by Leftley Motors in Rockland,Ontario.

[1967 4K]

Notice this car has wing glass doors so it’s a 67. It also has front and back side markers, so it’s a 68. If you pay attention to some of the old photos from back in the day you see this.

[turbo69bird]

Notice this car has wing glass doors so it’s a 67. It also has front and back side markers, so it’s a 68. If you pay attention to some of the old photos from back in the day you see this.

In the case of the Stephen Pontiac pro car , they would update the body every year to look like the next years model. But it was the same car .
They couldn’t do that with the 69 so when it carried over into 70 they just changed the paint scheme by lettering it different.

The 70 up body actually ran in the 71-73 seasons the car wasn’t delivered til late (half way through season) 70 and being in the north east the season was pretty much over by the time it got dialed in.

It seems the RAV engine was tested in my 69 because the car has two hoods with it one hood was cut for the dual quads. No one can remember for sure . Doesn’t help (the memory ) that all the cars were painted similar. Of course that’s what helped me get this car in the first place ..

Many probably don’t know it (even Pontiac guys) but the Ram air V engine was a very rare beast only given out to racers in most cases, the one I have was also topped by a RAV dual quad intake and carbs that only 4 racers got ahold of. (When I go to shows I get comments that it’s not even a Pontiac engine in there ) the last picture is of the exhaust gasket layout the ports aren’t in the normal Pontiac exhaust arrangement
The engine was mainly designed to be a contender in super stock , but was forced to run in pro because they never got installed in car bodies, do to a shortage of the A frame forged connecting rods.

The DS series of part numbers means developmental series or service. It shows up mainly in engineering test engines or parts not production parts

[turbo69bird]

Well
One thing is for sure, I’ve posted this same basic question in a poll on several different websites and it’s always the same, people prefer to see them restored as drag cars to stock 4 to 1 or more every time.

[Pro Stock John]

If I saw your '69 lettered up on drag wheels I'd hustle right over. If there was the restored to stock version of your car there I'd only briefly check it out personally.

[69LM1]

Little late to the game, and against the criteria since it was a privateer, but keep as raced for me. I sold the Tin Soldier in race trim and missed the car, so researched and bought it back, luckily still in race trim.

What makes the Tin Soldier COPO unique is that it is the only COPO that the original owner actually hands on built part of on the factory floor himself. Mr. Ron, the OO, worked at the Norwood plant. :)

I have toyed with the idea of a "detune" to drive to local shows. Great video below where we revealed the TS at the Camaro Nationals years ago, Mr. Ron initially thought someone cloned his old race car.

Mr. Ron and his wife back in the day
https://i.imgur.com/X6T6Dou.jpg


Mr. Ron and his wife at the Camaro Nats (same car, same wife) :)
https://i.imgur.com/DOISoGN.jpg

Some cool pics he let me copy
https://i.imgur.com/sUvLNGj.jpg

And more
https://i.imgur.com/NTajyyq.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Gq4FStf.jpg

Vid
3jl5n0peiSQ

Whats really cool is that he still races and competes today, and his son continues the legacy with Tin Soldier Fabrication building cars.

https://i.imgur.com/gIyDpB4.jpg

/R

[Pro Stock John]

Cool famous COPO!!

I'm guessing Mr. Terrell enjoyed seeing the car.

[markinnaples]

Love The Tin Soldier, and I think it's a great idea to de-tune it enough to drive to shows and cruises. So many more people would get to see an amazing Camaro.

[big gear head]

Tin Soldier Race Cars is in business here in KY building chassis components. I believe it's Ron's grandson who runs the business. Excellent TIG welding skills. Their shop car is a 4 door Malibu called Charlie Brown. Very fast.

[69LM1]

Yep, that's his son Jason Terrell. Jason had never seen TS until the Camaro Nats, what was cool is that even though you usually cannot drive the cars once they are in (except to leave) they allowed Mr. Ron and Jason to drive TS once around the show that year.

Great that Jason has continued the legacy.....

/R

[turbo69bird]

So if it’s been proven over and over in polls on forums that race cars are preferred 4-1 why don’t they bring More than the stock counterparts at auctions seems that would make sense and it’s that way in other forms of auctions and other types of cars only really in the muscle car world it doesn’t seem to be that way.

Especially in the realm of the early stock eliminator cars because they were pretty stock w just ringers with some blueprinting (stock but better) and some bolt ons.

Wouldn’t it make Sense if you gonna spend big money on a car to show you’d prefer to pay for one that 4 times as many people actually want to see at that show? Sometimes these pills go 10-1.

[turbo69bird]

Love The Tin Soldier, and I think it's a great idea to de-tune it enough to drive to shows and cruises. So many more people would get to see an amazing Camaro.

With todays stroker assemblies you can pull out compression add cubes and end up with the same HP and more torque and drivability actually drive them and enjoy them . Outwardly they are exactly the same stock look they had and the same performance without the worry of having to grab race gas all the time .

[SS427]

With todays stroker assemblies you can pull out compression add cubes and end up with the same HP and more torque and drivability actually drive them and enjoy them . Outwardly they are exactly the same stock look they had and the same performance without the worry of having to grab race gas all the time .

The down side is nothing makes that kind of sound unless you have some ungodly compression which a detuned engine will not have (correct me if I am wrong here). I just love that sound.

[olredalert]

The down side is nothing makes that kind of sound unless you have some ungodly compression which a detuned engine will not have (correct me if I am wrong here). I just love that sound.

----That's what everyone always said about Red Alert once my second rebuild went back in the car, Rick. 14 to 1 compression just makes a great sound!.....Bill S

[turbo69bird]

The down side is nothing makes that kind of sound unless you have some ungodly compression which a detuned engine will not have (correct me if I am wrong here). I just love that sound.

I don’t agree with that at all. I have a RAV pro stock engine 13.6 to 1 compression and a D port low compression 9.0 to 1 turbo engine in my other car. They sound exactly the same. You’d never be able to tell me which was which. My turbo engine even when not I. Boost sounds angry and nasty! Just like my RAV engine .

Kind of hard to hear it the sound quality sucks in this old video

https://youtube.com/shorts/yhWOybem01w?feature=share

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aqGcHD2mnKs


https://youtube.com/shorts/W5MBXrZvMqU?feature=share

[tjs44]

Same cam same CR same CI I dont think any diff in sound on a RA III engine and a RA V engine.Been there done that.JMHO,Tom

[turbo69bird]

Same cam same CR same CI I dont think any diff in sound on a RA III engine and a RA V engine.Been there done that.JMHO,Tom

Tom we were talking about the difference in compression ratio in the sound not necessarily the d port Vs V port . I only used the V and D port because that’s what I had for comparison in my garage in different compressions, and wanted to explain the difference . That the RAV was a higher performance version and higher compression. Yet the D port lower performance engine w low compression sounded the same . In fact most people who hear both side by side idling feel the Turbo car sounds nastier and snottier even though it’s far lower compression , smaller cam , and blows through the turbo which knocks down some decibels. . RAV is a roller cam 650 lift range about a 112 LSA and the d port turbo car is a solid flat tappet in the 550 range 114 LSA.

I’ve built RAIV both ways stroker w low compression and original w high compression and I dint feel there was any dicernable difference in the way they sounded. We are really only taking about 1 point to 1.5 points of compression between the two on those engines if the original is built to 1969 NHRA specs even For a stock eliminator to a drivable on pump gas stroker RAIV.

[tjs44]

Compression DOES make a diff,sometime BIG.Tom