FAKE W-31@Mecum

[tom M]

This is absolutely hilarious.
You bid 100k on a car and dont do basic research on what a w-31 is?

https://www.mecum.com/lots/561598/1970-oldsmobile-cutlass-s-w-31/

[Bill Pritchard]

Fake because they were not available with a/c? :confused:

[rsinor]

How does a car become a AACA grand national champion if it is fake. Or was that misrepresentation also. Please explain how it was determined it was fake and what in fact is fake. Inquiring minds want to know, it was a decent looking car.

[JRC99]

I just did basic research on the W-31 and nothing's jumping out as wrong to me.

EDIT: I stand corrected.

[Ryan1969Chevelle]

Ouch my head hurts!!!

No W31 was built with AC, it’s one of the first tip offs.

Ryan W31

[Rsconv68]

Probably added during the restoration or just wasn’t a 31 car to begin with.

[1972convss454]

The announcers made mention of it being a W31 car with air. Like that was rare. lol

[tom M]

no ac and no power brakes with w-31 package
to change over to a/c would require a whole new firewall & vent system
would litearlly need to remove body from frame to make it work

this looks like a blue 4sp cutlass that sold on ebay back in 2012

[dykstra]

It’s rare alright. One of none.:dunno:

[mprice]

I guess this shows us what an AACA certification is worth. I have always felt that AACA certifications are more about how many times you present the car at their show than it is about the correctness of a car.

[PeteLeathersac]

‘

Subject VIN 336870M354113
:beers:
~ Pete

.

[Keith Seymore]

I guess this shows us what an AACA certification is worth. I have always felt that AACA certifications are more about how many times you present the car at their show than it is about the correctness of a car.

Good to know.

K

[Stefano]

no ac and no power brakes with w-31 package
to change over to a/c would require a whole new firewall & vent system
would litearlly need to remove body from frame to make it work

this looks like a blue 4sp cutlass that sold on ebay back in 2012

Tom, I am going to respectfully disagree on what it takes to change the firewall from non a/c to a/c on a GM "A" body in this case. The only panels needing removed are the inner wheel house on the passengers side and of course being able to cut and weld the firewall.

There is no "proof" at this point that this is not a real W-31 but someone would have needed to go to great lenghts to add factory correct A/C throughout. Think of adding A/C to a 1969 Z28. Sure it can be done, buy why go through the effort and the reason the factory didn't do it to begin with is that the "big" cam caused lack of vacuum.

However, I did not see any proof presented that this is indeed an authentic W-31?

The brake master clyinder and booster apprear to be reproductions based on the pics presented, but as mentioned power/vacuum opperated disk brakes would not be factory correct.

The radiator top plate is correct for a 3.91 geared car which would not be correct even in a standard Cutlass 4 speed with A/C although that is a bolt on item as well.

Oldsmobile POP's are generally a plastic card and do not verify options or W-31 status.

[tom M]

Tom, I am going to respectfully disagree on what it takes to change the firewall from non a/c to a/c on a GM "A" body in this case. The only panels needing removed are the inner wheel house on the passengers side and of course being able to cut and weld the firewall.

There is no "proof" at this point that this is not a real W-31 but someone would have needed to go to great lenghts to add factory correct A/C throughout. Think of adding A/C to a 1969 Z28. Sure it can be done, buy why go through the effort and the reason the factory didn't do it to begin with is that the "big" cam caused lack of vacuum.

However, I did not see any proof presented that this is indeed an authentic W-31?

The brake master clyinder and booster apprear to be reproductions based on the pics presented, but as mentioned power/vacuum opperated disk brakes would not be factory correct.

The radiator top plate is correct for a 3.91 geared car which would not be correct even in a standard Cutlass 4 speed with A/C although that is a bolt on item as well.

Oldsmobile POP's are generally a plastic card and do not verify options or W-31 status.

if you wanted a/c in a car like this you just get a vintage a/c kit.
you dont cut up a firewall to put a 60 year old a/c unit in a car.that's goofy.
and it would be extremely difficult to weld that firewall with the frender on.

no proof its not a real w-31? i don't see a broadcast card.
would you sell this car as a real w-31?

[Bill Pritchard]

I guess this shows us what an AACA certification is worth. I have always felt that AACA certifications are more about how many times you present the car at their show than it is about the correctness of a car.

For muscle cars in general, an award at MCACN would carry far more weight than an AACA award. AACA awards have never been any indicator that a given car came from the factory exactly as presented at their shows.

[Steve Shauger]

Tom (tom M), Stefano did state the owner showed no proof it was an authentic W31.

no proof its not a real w-31? i don't see a broadcast card.


Stefano stated the following:

"However, I did not see any proof presented that this is indeed an authentic W-31?"

[cook_dw]

Flip side and not siding that this car is real as I don’t care but there is a local Z and it had a factory A/C box installed by the dealer and still has it today. Wanna say it’s an x77 car too. I’ll look and see if I still have photos. Point is, it can be done if someone really wanted to.

[cook_dw]

Real tag & car. Vin has also never been off.

[1972convss454]

An A/C body and a Non A/C body are two different bodies. Not just the firewall.

The car in question is a beautiful car. The new owner may not even care if it is a real W-31.

[luzl78]

An A/C body and a Non A/C body are two different bodies. Not just the firewall.

The car in question is a beautiful car. The new owner may not even care if it is a real W-31.

he will when he tries to sell it and everyone tells him it’s not real

[Stefano]

An A/C body and a Non A/C body are two different bodies. Not just the firewall.

The car in question is a beautiful car. The new owner may not even care if it is a real W-31.

I would say we are beating a dead horse at this point however in the spirit of accuracy and correct information, please show me where the bodies are different, but for the holes in the firewall. Here is a picture of the firewall pad, non ac top vs ac bottom.

[jeffschevelle]

I can't speak from experience with the AC differences in a 68-72 A-body shell. But I know from experience that on both 61-64 Impalas and on 64-67 A-bodies, (A) the firewall / toe-board section is different, (B) the part of the firewall above the seam is different, (C) the right inside kick panel / cowl section is different, and has the big "vent" hole farther up and a completely different shape, and (D) the part of the right kick panel / cowl section outside the car (behind the fender), is a completely different shape (not just the holes, but also a larger stamping that goes farther straight down towards the ground before it bends back towards the rocker)

Actually, (C) and (D) are a single piece of sheetmetal, but part is inside the car and part is outside, and you cannot change the entire piece in a single unit at one time without cutting the entire right side of the cowl off the car.

So you can easily slice new holes in the firewall for AC; but to alter the right side of the cowl for AC you have to add metal at the lower part of the interior vent hole, reshape the upper part of the hole, and "build" an additional box area at the lower part of the outside of the right corner of the cowl. Can it be done? Yes, as I have done it to a 63 Impala and a 67 Chevelle. Is it any fun? Heck no. Can it be done without taking the front fender off? I seriously doubt it, and sure wouldn't want to try!

Again, no idea about 68-72, but I would think the complexity of the AC cowl differences was at least as involved as on a 67.

[1972convss454]

I know this is off topic from the original post and sorry for hijacking.
The non AC cars bodies have Upper Air Outlets. The AC bodies do not have these. Totally different. As Jeff states, it can be done....yes but it would be a PITA to do it correctly.




I would say we are beating a dead horse at this point however in the spirit of accuracy and correct information, please show me where the bodies are different, but for the holes in the firewall. Here is a picture of the firewall pad, non ac top vs ac bottom.

[bergy]

Just a comment regarding AACA Grand National judging criteria. The cars are judged based on the options that were available from the factory and/or dealer as new cars. For seldom seen rare options, participants may be asked to show verification that optional equipment was available. I had to do that for the liquid tire chain option on my 69 Camaro. The validity of option combinations (such as with this car)is more difficult for judges to question. Grand National events included cars built from from pre 1900 to 1998. So, getting this far into the weeds for every car in every generation would be impossible. Heck - it’s sometimes difficult to get agreement from the experts on this forum regarding a very narrow window of cars.

AACA Grand National shows are pretty special if you’re a car enthusiast. Even regional shows like AACA Gettysburg this past weekend bring out some incredible cars. There was a MB gullwing sitting across from my car that the owner drove (not trailered) 200+ miles to the event on Saturday. Overall, great cars & great people IMO.

[bergy]

MB gullwing

[cook_dw]

How do local AACA clubs compare to something national? Local car shows I have been to rarely do anything more than a mirror on a stick walk by the 2 sides, glance to make sure it has an engine, interior and sometimes doesn't bother with the trunk.. Largest in my area I have been to more than a couple times avg around 500 cars. I never expect anything as far as an award/trophy or a pat on the ass. It's more for the enjoyment to get outside but some guys think that is how judging is supposed to be done. But maybe I am only seeing localized issues. In fairness, I have only gone to 4 car shows in the last 8 years but the AACA local chapter is always the ones doing the judging. Maybe the reason is they are not judging those events like they would their own but they are recognized on the flyers of said events.

[tom M]

ive seen another w-31 that has a/c supposedly "added by owner".
it was actually at MCACN but the hood was shut.

[Stefano]

Those of you who missed out on it have another chance.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/364270808662?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=c9nh-gohscc&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=dVBal0BTTDq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

[tom M]

Lmao

[tom M]

lol

[1971ls6]

Not even a description of what you are buying

[tom M]

seller is a seriously shady dude
https://apnews.com/article/41e6aeaa22e8b63ef5b5f6ffc1fdee61