Market Value and "Numbers Matching" versus "Original Motor"

[PatrickKrook]

The dreaded restamp discussion seems to be front and center (again) lately. I was at Bloomington Gold recently, looking for a good '67 427 Coupe for a client and encountered one in the Gold Mine for sale area. Had all the awards (Triple Diamond), accolades and bonfides, even owned in the same family from new and the same owner since '79. Factory docs also confirm the car as genuine. To the best of the owner's knowledge, it still retained its "born with" motor. The car was awarded an APPEAR OEM Bloomington Gold. One sticking point- at some point during its judging, it was noted on judging sheets that the stamp pad was not consistent with factory.

This is just one example and a sympathetic one at that. There are many, MANY situations where a restamp is present for as many reasons. Some are seemingly innocuous; others are certainly malevolent.

So, the general question is this, on a Chevrolet what is the market value difference between an unfalsifiable original engine and one that is merely "Numbers Matching"- which would include a "restoration motor" or "restamp" on a car that you otherwise known as genuinely factory correct?

[WILMASBOYL78]

Not sure anyone can answer that in a definitive way...the whole 'numbers' thing began with Corvettes and now the hobby [or sport], depending upon your view, has never been the same.

Re-stamps are re-stamps where ever they live...measure twice and cut once.

-wilma

[SBR]

My 2 cents is that the rarer and more desirable the car, the larger the premium will be for a car that still retains its original stamp pad. A wise one once told me that judging and buying are two different things.

[TimG]

I agree with Steve. If you take a loaded '67 435 with paperwork and good colors and replace the motor, it could be a $75,000 hit.

[MosportGreen66]

I agree with Steve and Tim.

I know of two great '67 L71 coupes that just sold for $160k each. Both had Grenning validated docs and tags but both were restamper engines. One was a Nabor Brother's restoration about 20 years ago, the other was very nice frame off. All real bodies and great parts.

One was Marina Blue/blue the other Elkhart/teal. Get this - both mint tank sheets, with documented pipes and BO wheels (10 real KH wheels too). Both had non-OEM gold and Chapter TF. If these were real engine cars, the price would have been $225k-$250k easily.

[Big Block Bill]

My 2 cents is that the rarer and more desirable the car, the larger the premium will be for a car that still retains its original stamp pad. A wise one once told me that judging and buying are two different things.

I agree 100%, judging and buying ARE two different things, but a lot of people don't realize it

Bill

[napa68]

The dreaded restamp discussion seems to be front and center (again) lately. I was at Bloomington Gold recently, looking for a good '67 427 Coupe for a client and encountered one in the Gold Mine for sale area. Had all the awards (Triple Diamond), accolades and bonfides, even owned in the same family from new and the same owner since '79. Factory docs also confirm the car as genuine. To the best of the owner's knowledge, it still retained its "born with" motor. The car was awarded an APPEAR OEM Bloomington Gold. One sticking point- at some point during its judging, it was noted on judging sheets that the stamp pad was not consistent with factory.

This is just one example and a sympathetic one at that. There are many, MANY situations where a restamp is present for as many reasons. Some are seemingly innocuous; others are certainly malevolent.

So, the general question is this, on a Chevrolet what is the market value difference between an unfalsifiable original engine and one that is merely "Numbers Matching"- which would include a "restoration motor" or "restamp" on a car that you otherwise known as genuinely factory correct?

The red one that was in the for sale lot?

[PatrickKrook]

@napa68 That was the one I was citing in this use case, though I didn't want to pick on that car in particular.

[PatrickKrook]

I agree with Steve and Tim.

I know of two great '67 L71 coupes that just sold for $160k each. Both had Grenning validated docs and tags but both were restamper engines. One was a Nabor Brother's restoration about 20 years ago, the other was very nice frame off. All real bodies and great parts.

One was Marina Blue/blue the other Elkhart/teal. Get this - both mint tank sheets, with documented pipes and BO wheels (10 real KH wheels too). Both had non-OEM gold and Chapter TF. If these were real engine cars, the price would have been $225k-$250k easily.

I follow you- so, a car judged #1, but wearing a re-stamp- does that go for #1 "Price Guide Money", or does it take a hit off of that. Or, does a #1 with the factory stamp earn the premium over book?

[Lynn]

For most collectors, a #1 car with a restamp will get discounted significantly to a #1 car with the "born with" engine.

I know it would to me.

[PatrickKrook]

For most collectors, a #1 car with a restamp will get discounted significantly to a #1 car with the "born with" engine.

I know it would to me.

I agree with that Lynn. Most popular price guide definitions of "#1" or "#2" do not include factors like drivetrain originality. Additionally, most prices achieved in public and recorded as "#1" are very often NOM or restamps, but simply reported by the auction house as "#1" condition. Those I know with fully documented, concours cars with factory original drivetrains and stamps are seeking a premium OVER #1 Price Guide Figures.

My question is, what is the baseline price for the discount?

[TimG]

There really is no baseline as it depends on the car that is missing the motor. You just can't put a percentage on it. On a '67 327/350 horse Corvette convertible, it could mean as much as $10,000 to $15,000. On the same car with a 427/435 it could be $50,000 to $75,000.

[Formula455SD]

Restamp should take the same hit as a NOM... IMO.. I think 25-35% should be a good baseline depending on the car.

My '66 427/390 car is NOM. It has a '68 427/390 in it with whatever cars vin it came out of stamped on it.... Does restamping add value? Not to me it doesn't. I would rather have NOM than a restamped forgery.

[lowmile]

This is kind of like the bud light spokes person deal. From the beginning of restoring cars numbers matching meant original to the car. Some where along the line someone decide that a correctly restamped block could be a called numbers matching. I would call it a correctly stamped block not numbers matching. I figured I take one more swing at the horse corpse.

[EZ Nova]

This is kind of like the bud light spokes person deal. From the beginning of restoring cars numbers matching meant original to the car. Some where along the line someone decide that a correctly restamped block could be a called numbers matching. I would call it a correctly stamped block not numbers matching. I figured I take one more swing at the horse corpse.

Agreed. Somewhere numbers matching morphed into correct date codes and restamps. Is that not like what Lynn said and the term "BORN-WITH" came into use?

I was speaking to a couple buddies who are also 'cart guys" and have been for years. One is even a friend and travelling buddy of Peter Klutt since BEFORE Legendary when he was The Shelby Shop. Anyway these guy don't follow the "trends" closely and I had to inform them, and show them this thread, that TODAY, numbers matching in NOT "born-with", but actually a different but correct date code and even restamp. They both were taken aback and was shocked that the hobby has moved like that.

[rm70z]

What if the car has a CE block from dealer , is there also a hit on vehicle pricing , not being original and how much .

[TimG]

A CE block does not take the place of an original block. Let's say that a '68 427/435 horse Corvette lost its block six months after purchase. By the time the dealer ordered a CE block and got it into the dealership, that block would be a casting date too late for the car and the casting number may be a different number altogether. Very few cars kept their warranty paperwork from the installation of a CE block, either. A CE block would have a casting date too late for the car and a casting number most likely different that the original block that was installed in the car. I think the best thing you can do if your car is missing the original motor is to try to find a block from another car close in VIN to your car and put that motor in the car.

[67since67]

My take on this may well not align with others thoughts here.

A CE block installed as a warranty replacement when the car was near new, in an otherwise real, legit, documented car, would be ok, but with an appropriate price adjustment. My feeling is that it's part of the legitimate history of the car. In the dealership where I was employed in the late '60's forward it was daily routine for a warranty engine replacement in some Chevy. I have a CE block in my garage.

A Yenko, COPO, Corvette, or other ultra rare muscle car with the original block unavailable, a real engine from a similar car is OK, but I'd really have to want it.

A "stamper" engine will never cross my threshold, under any circumstances!

I have walked away from otherwise great cars (ie '67 Chevelle L78) due to the last two scenario's.

Just my thoughts. - Bill W

[carnut4life]

My take on this may well not align with others thoughts here.

A CE block installed as a warranty replacement when the car was near new, in an otherwise real, legit, documented car, would be ok, but with an appropriate price adjustment. My feeling is that it's part of the legitimate history of the car. In the dealership where I was employed in the late '60's forward it was daily routine for a warranty engine replacement in some Chevy. I have a CE block in my garage.

A Yenko, COPO, Corvette, or other ultra rare muscle car with the original block unavailable, a real engine from a similar car is OK, but I'd really have to want it.

A "stamper" engine will never cross my threshold, under any circumstances!

I have walked away from otherwise great cars (ie '67 Chevelle L78) due to the last two scenario's.

Just my thoughts. - Bill W

If a car doesn't have the original engine I'd rather have a CE block in it than a dated block with the wrong VIN too Bill. I know a dated block will get you more points at certain shows but I don't show my cars so that's not an issue for me.

I wasn't around back then but I've talked to a lot of guys that were and every single one of them has told me the same thing, if given the option back in the day to have the original engine rebuilt by the dealer under warranty, or to have a new engine installed, every single one of them picked the new engine over having their original engine repaired back then because nobody was worried about originality or numbers matching. That doesn't get talked about much these days, but it's one of the biggest reasons I'd rather have a CE block over a dated block if the original is MIA.

[Flying Undertaker]

My ZL-1 Camaro was stolen along with four other ZL-1 Camaros from Merollis Chevrolet back in July 1969. My engine complete, the 4 speed M-21 trans. tires and wheels, The original bucket seats, Bent neck, BBC radiator, clutch Z-bar. My ZL-1 is the only surviving ZL-1 out of Five stolen. My cars original ZL-1 was used to run on Woodward or a flat bottom speed boat. The engine and trans. were never recovered, according to ZL-1 gurus. I have a CE block in it today, along with a CT trans.

[EZ Nova]

My ZL-1 Camaro was stolen along with four other ZL-1 Camaros from Merollis Chevrolet back in July 1969. My engine complete, the 4 speed M-21 trans. tires and wheels, The original bucket seats, Bent neck, BBC radiator, clutch Z-bar. My ZL-1 is the only surviving ZL-1 out of Five stolen. My cars original ZL-1 was used to run on Woodward or a flat bottom speed boat. The engine and trans. were never recovered, according to ZL-1 gurus. I have a CE block in it today, along with a CT trans.

Undertaker, that understandable and fully acceptable. BUT if you were a prospective buyer of a 1969 Camaro ZL1 today, and you look at these 3 options:

1. YOUR CAR with BORN-WITH ZL1 with full history and discloser since new. What should it's value be?

2. YOUR car, being sold as "number's matching" car?

3. YOUR car as you described above?

It's the refection in the price/value between the 3 opton? Quite obvious that #1 would by far be the most $$$$, follow by #2 then #3 respectfully. YOU were honest and upfront about the the parts stolen from your car before it even left the dealership. NOT ALL the sellers are this way and some do try to pass there cars as something it just isn't these days of high $$$ cars.

[Krateness]

Here’s a curveball, what does a factory grind out do to the value of a car that still retains its born with engine? Broach marks end where the pad protrudes from the head and the factory gang stamp with the VIN is not on the pad but is instead by the oil boss…

It’s a discussion we have had on our Camaro with a few people with mixed feelings. Reason being is that the vin isn’t on the pad so the only thing that exists there is the build date and the suffix code for the trans. Grind out is also evident on the cylinder head as the wheel ate into the side of the head while it was being done. The date stamped back on the pad is 2 days prior to the NCRS shipping report said it left the factory. I’ve asked people about grind outs before and it seems to be a touchy subject for the same reasons as what is already being discussed here. When we took ownership of the car, we had assumed it been decked and someone stamped the date back on, however when we pulled the head off to see the broach marks, we started researching grind outs…

[PatrickKrook]

Here’s a curveball, what does a factory grind out do to the value of a car that still retains its born with engine? Broach marks end where the pad protrudes from the head and the factory gang stamp with the VIN is not on the pad but is instead by the oil boss…

It’s a discussion we have had on our Camaro with a few people with mixed feelings. Reason being is that the vin isn’t on the pad so the only thing that exists there is the build date and the suffix code for the trans. Grind out is also evident on the cylinder head as the wheel ate into the side of the head while it was being done. The date stamped back on the pad is 2 days prior to the NCRS shipping report said it left the factory. I’ve asked people about grind outs before and it seems to be a touchy subject for the same reasons as what is already being discussed here. When we took ownership of the car, we had assumed it been decked and someone stamped the date back on, however when we pulled the head off to see the broach marks, we started researching grind outs…

Good question!