Owner search [Archive] - The Supercar Registry

Charley Lillard

11-04-2023, 06:19 PM

A friend bought a ZL1 clone at Barrett-Jackson but the seller swears it is a real COPO but JM said all they could do is call it a clone because of no docs and the ZL1 engine. I told him he might try to hire someone to try to find prior owners etc. suggestions on who ?

Lee Stewart

11-04-2023, 06:28 PM

Tracing Vehicle Ownership History

https://www.hagerty.com/media/maintenance-and-tech/tracing-vehicle-ownership-history/

Too Many Projects

11-04-2023, 10:54 PM

Face Book, Lost Muscle Cars... Wes Eisenschenk. This guy seems to pull lost cars out of the clouds. Fair number of success stories on the page.

Charley Lillard

11-04-2023, 11:20 PM

124379N609580 and he said he got it from a guy in Canada.

Charley Lillard

11-04-2023, 11:22 PM

Trim tag hurts

Too Many Projects

11-04-2023, 11:30 PM

All the factory ZL-1 cars vins are known, so is this purported to be an L72 with a ZL-1 transplant ?
I'll post the vin on that page as a lost COPO car and see if anything turns up.

Too Many Projects

11-04-2023, 11:55 PM

I had to send Wes a message to see if the request meets the guidelines to post...

Charley Lillard

11-05-2023, 12:57 AM

The seller was swearing it was a L72 COPO that he restored with a ZL1 engine.

L72copocamaro

11-05-2023, 03:59 AM

124379N609580 and he said he got it from a guy in Canada.

Stating the obvious here, but possible Canadian docs available?

Too Many Projects

11-05-2023, 01:21 PM

Stating the obvious here, but possible Canadian docs available?
Or shipping report with selling dealer ? Might help narrow it down too.
I, also, got a reply from the Lost page with a link to post it. Do you have better pics from the side or, possibly engine ?

69hurstSC

11-05-2023, 04:52 PM

How far back does his ownership history tracking go?

Bear70

11-05-2023, 05:46 PM

Hey guys, this is the owner of the car. I bought the car a few years ago at Barrett Jackson in Scottsdale. The owner at the auction (who is from Canada) swore it was a real COPO car but JM wouldn’t confirm it because it wasn’t the original motor so they ran the car through as a tribute car. Its got one of the ZL1 continuation crate motors in it that GM sold in 2005. The car is painted dusk blue. We obviously know its not a numbers matching car. We just want to know if it was born a copo car. Thanks

Too Many Projects

11-05-2023, 06:33 PM

Great to have you on board and more info and pics of the car. I went looking at previous BJ auctions, but didn't go that far back. If you can PM the sellers name, that will be a big plus for posting on the fb Lost page. I will try to snag some pics off here to post with it.

Charley Lillard

11-05-2023, 06:48 PM

https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1969-CHEVROLET-CAMARO-COPO-RE-CREATION-251271

Kurt S

11-06-2023, 03:55 AM

There were 10 51-51 ZL1's.
That's a repro tag with a body # that's in the middle of that group of 10.

Not much to go on....

lowmile

11-06-2023, 02:57 PM

Defiantly get the GM shipper report. If it went to a dealer known for selling copos that would be a big step in the right direction. It would narrow the search for owners original owner history. Certainly whoever restored it would know the original color which would also help. Hard to believe you'd swap a real copo trim tag to make a Zl1 clone but stranger things have happened.

Pro Stock John

11-06-2023, 04:07 PM

Sounds like there are some good action items:

-Shippers report, $20
-Canadian docs?
-Check hidden vins
-Posted on FB Lost Muscle Cars

So there is zero oral history on the car, no prior owners have popped up? If I'm following correctly, the seller was in Canada, but the auction ad refers to it as an Arizona car?

Too Many Projects

11-06-2023, 06:50 PM

It isn't posted on the "Lost" page. The page owner had me post it on his "Finding history on muscle cars" page, since it really isn't "lost". We are looking for history, so I guess it makes sense.

William

11-06-2023, 07:14 PM

N609580 was final assembled on or about March 6, 1969. Would not have an 03D body tag.

All N609xxx VINs were 02D. None of them were built in February.

Mr70

11-06-2023, 08:15 PM

Maybe it was owned by Jon Voight.. :)

Pro Stock John

11-06-2023, 08:39 PM

It isn't posted on the "Lost" page. The page owner had me post it on his "Finding history on muscle cars" page, since it really isn't "lost". We are looking for history, so I guess it makes sense.

Yeah Wes split that out. I'm waiting to get a pic of my old '64 GTO from my college roomate so I can post it on there.

Does the owner of the car know where to order the selling-dealer info? If not can someone share it?

Too Many Projects

11-06-2023, 09:02 PM

Charley should be able to help him get that. He's only posted the one time here. I've sent him a PM to get the name of the person he bought it from as a lead too, but nothing back on that.

Bear70

11-07-2023, 01:32 AM

If the original tag was either damaged or missing and there was a reproduction tag made, that doesn’t clearly state that the car is or is not an original copo or ZL1? We are trying to get the information on the previous owner and we will provide that information if successful. Since the car does fall in to the correct color and dates, how does it get approved or disproved? Either way we are fine, we just seek the facts

Pro Stock John

11-07-2023, 03:00 AM

I'm guessing someone on here like Kurt could PM you where to look for the hidden partial vins.

Send off for the selling-dealer info, that info might jog a few memories.

Brent on here traced one of his cars back and the original family still had the paper work for the car.

Too Many Projects

11-08-2023, 03:24 AM

Just heard back from Bear70. He applied for the dealer info a while ago and NCRS doesn't have anything on that vin. Seems it's in one of the "gaps" they have in data. Unfortunate that this car seems to have appeared from thin air.

EZ Nova

11-08-2023, 11:39 AM

So my limited knowledge is that I know of a car or 2 like this around Toronto.

1st one was years ago, was to be a original 427 COPO car that was out street racing around in the later 90's.

2nd was a blue ZL1 clone or just a '69 with a ZL1 owned my Mike Gentile of Universal Spinners, the air cleaner guy.

I think Mike sold his car a number of years ago, but I could be wrong.

Jonesy

11-08-2023, 01:43 PM

Man that trim tag just kills the whole situation IMO.

Zedder

11-08-2023, 02:38 PM

Too Many Projects

11-08-2023, 03:02 PM

I would run a Canadian UVIP report to see who owned it when it was in Canada. I just checked to see if a report existed for it and it does. Knowing who owned it when it was here might shed some light on whether or not any of the known bad actors up here had there hands on it at some point. The UVIP costs $20 to run.
Never knew of this resource and MAN, it could include important facts about the colour and power of the original car, Thanks Mark !!
This report alone could debunk any claim to a COPO, unfortunately for the owner, if it does. On the other hand, if the vin plate has been swapped as well, it will only indicate the car the plate came from.

I'm PMing a link to the owner so he can follow up on this. Could be the best tip so far.

This package contains:

the vehicle details (including the year, make, model, colour, body type, cylinders and power)
a vehicle registration history in Ontario (including all present and previous owners, their city of residence and odometer reading)

Zedder

11-08-2023, 03:12 PM

I would bet the car was made from a rust free US body as was the standard practice for clones/fakes in the 80's and 90's. Trim tag was made to fit the builder's vision for his COPO clone.

427strato

11-08-2023, 03:28 PM

The used vehicle report is a good idea. I did this to find the owner from the early 80's a couple of years ago for my 65 custom Corvette. If the search is sucessful then a simple telephone number look up might work as many people that are older still have land lines, myself included. If that does not work, but you have a name, then hopefully they own land in Ontario, in which case I can likely find them for you. I'm a freelance title searcher and have access to all real estate records accross Ontario. I did this recently to find the original owner of my 69 Chevelle SS, 2 door sedan and have talked to him since. The only hiccup would be if he/she has a really common name, Smith, Jones, etc.. Good luck, Doug.

Too Many Projects

11-09-2023, 10:30 AM

I would bet the car was made from a rust free US body as was the standard practice for clones/fakes in the 80's and 90's. Trim tag was made to fit the builder's vision for his COPO clone.

Owner informed me that he has inspected the stamp on the cowl and it matches vin plate and title. Getting more interesting.
I sent you PM with a name I came up with that is supposed to have been associated with this car to see if it is a "known bad actor" to you.

EZ Nova

11-09-2023, 11:15 AM

Charlie, if you would like to PM me the VIN, I could go and run the UVIP at the Ontario MTO office for ya.

John

Too Many Projects

11-09-2023, 11:47 AM

Charlie, if you would like to PM me the VIN, I could go and run the UVIP at the Ontario MTO office for ya.

John
That is posted on the first page. I provided the owner with a link to apply for the UVIP and he is doing that. Thanks for the generous offer and if we can't get that in the US, he would be grateful if you could get it... :biggthumpup:

Zedder

11-09-2023, 12:38 PM

I was going to make the same offer. You can do it on-line for $20 and they mail the report to you. You don't need to go into the MTO office.

Tracker1

11-09-2023, 12:41 PM

Sorry if I missed it, but I don't see any clarification if this is a Canadian-sold car or not. My assumption is that it is NOT because a VVS search of the VIN would reveal its origins. There would be no need for the previous owner to "swear" it was a COPO, he would have the GM of Canada document to prove it. So it was imported into Canada in the 80s or 90s, yes?

Charley Lillard

11-09-2023, 12:42 PM

You guy are a great help.

Too Many Projects

11-09-2023, 12:59 PM

Charlie, if you would like to PM me the VIN, I could go and run the UVIP at the Ontario MTO office for ya.

John
OK, Mark just informed me that this info is only available to Ontario residents, so if you want to do this, that would be great.
Thanks !!

Zedder

11-09-2023, 01:47 PM

Also, this is just for Ontario cars. If it was somewhere else in Canada, you would have to see what that province can offer.

Tracker1

11-09-2023, 01:50 PM

Also, this is just for Ontario cars. If it was somewhere else in Canada, you would have to see what that province can offer.

NOTHING. Ontario is the only province that offers such a package. And I would not be surprised if it goes bye-bye sometime soon, privacy laws being what they are these days.

CamaroNOS

11-10-2023, 10:28 PM

Too Many Projects

11-10-2023, 11:28 PM

Hello Charley,

I went to MTO (Ministry of Transportation of Ontario) today which is our version of the U.S. DOT and ran the VIN of the car in question. I have the complete ownership history while the car was registered here in Ontario.

Would you like me to post it here or forward it directly to you?

In regards to it being a legitimate Canadian ordered/sold COPO, like mentioned, a quick $135 forwarded to Vintages Vehicle Services in Oshawa would solve some of that mystery instantly. It would at least inform your friend that the VIN is real.

Paul
Thanks for doing that. The owner is Bear70 and he has posted in this thread. It would be best to send it directly to him, either in a PM or get his address and mail it. I have mentioned VVS to him in PM's and he is, hopefully, getting that info also.

CamaroNOS

11-11-2023, 01:01 AM

No problem Mitch, I just figured that if I can help somebody get some history on an Ontario car quickly, it would be the right thing to do.

I have sent Bear70 a PM.

Paul

realzed

11-11-2023, 08:19 PM

Hello Charley,

I went to MTO (Ministry of Transportation of Ontario) today which is our version of the U.S. DOT and ran the VIN of the car in question. I have the complete ownership history while the car was registered here in Ontario.

Would you like me to post it here or forward it directly to you?

In regards to it being a legitimate Canadian ordered/sold COPO, like mentioned, a quick $135 forwarded to Vintages Vehicle Services in Oshawa would solve some of that mystery instantly. It would at least inform your friend that the VIN is real.

Paul

Often if not too busy - if you provide the VIN over the phone they would at one time confirm immediately if they had it in their database (or at least George did it for me twice in the past) then it was a choice then and there to sign up for further info and package details at that point..

Too Many Projects

11-11-2023, 10:18 PM

Often if not too busy - if you provide the VIN over the phone they would at one time confirm immediately if they had it in their database (or at least George did it for me twice in the past) then it was a choice then and there to sign up for further info and package details at that point..
George has done that for me too, in the past, but it's been 6 years now. I don't know how often, or many hours a day he works anymore.

Charley Lillard

11-13-2023, 08:44 PM

I think someone has reached out to VVS.

Charley Lillard

11-14-2023, 02:47 PM

I'm told nobody has reached out to VVS yet ? Also I have a member offering help if any known past owners were in Ontario with a name and address he can search.

Charley Lillard

11-14-2023, 02:50 PM

Bear 70 are you following all this ?

Zedder

11-14-2023, 02:56 PM

Everyone up here owning a Canadian delivered GM muscle car runs those reports, so it would be very unusual for a previous owner of this car living up here not to do that. Regardless, for $130 or whatever it is, I would order one anyway and put the questions to bed.

Too Many Projects

11-14-2023, 04:46 PM

Camaro NOS got the Canadian owner report and PM'd it to Bear. He contacted me this morning but didn't mention anything about receiving that this morning, so I asked, but haven't heard back.
He said he can't find any way to contact the BJ seller and asked if I did and I have no way of getting info from BJ about that.

He didn't mention getting the VVS report, or ordering it.

Charley, maybe you could PM him and ask if he has ordered the report. I sent him a link to VVS a while ago, but he may have overlooked it.

Bill Pritchard

11-14-2023, 05:03 PM

Bear70 hasn't posted in this thread in 8 days while many others seem to be jumping thru hoops to help him out :hmmm:

frankk

11-14-2023, 08:10 PM

From past experience, if George doesn't have the VIN in the data base there is no charge for the search.

CamaroNOS

11-14-2023, 09:05 PM

Bear70 hasn't posted in this thread in 8 days while many others seem to be jumping thru hoops to help him out :hmmm:

You have a very good point Bill. We all have done what we can to assist.

Paul

Charley Lillard

11-14-2023, 11:15 PM

Thanks for trying. Sorry.

Bear70

11-15-2023, 12:02 AM

Good evening. We appreciate everyone’s input on this. However we have multiplied business that pull us from vet direction 14-16 hours a day. It’s agricultural so its 7 days a week. So we are not able to respond to these multiple times a day but just in the evening. I realize everyone has there thoughts and opinions. However i am really just looking for the facts. We have tried to contact the previous owners through email and phone number multiple times to no prevail. There are a lot of abbreviations that i have no idea what you guys are talking about. Simply is there someone i could pay to do all the leg work on this and supply the truth on the car. The previous owner is a dead end. Tell me what it costs to do so.
Thanks, Barry (i apologize for the delay Charley)

Bear70

11-15-2023, 12:03 AM

We are headed back to work right now

CamaroNOS

11-15-2023, 12:42 AM

Hello Barry,

I just sent you a PM with some contact information regarding one of the previous owners. I am sure he built the car.

Paul

Pro Stock John

11-15-2023, 12:47 AM

Maybe one of you guys could take this on and charge Barry something to pull it all together.

Too Many Projects

11-15-2023, 12:50 AM

Maybe one of you guys could take this on and charge Barry something to pull it all together.
CamaroNOS already has the Ontario ownership report. Maybe he could call and ask George if the vin is in the VVS file and if so, let Barry know and ask for the funding to purchase it.

Bear70

11-15-2023, 02:00 AM

Both of those idea’s would be great. Please advise.

CamaroNOS

11-15-2023, 02:49 AM

Ok....let me fire up the Firebird and put my Jim Rockford sport coat on......and like Jim, I charge $500/day plus expenses. Just joking!!!!!

I'll give the boys at Vintage Vehicle Services a whistle tomorrow. I think either George or John can give us a hand. I will keep you posted Bear70.

Sit tight......

Paul

GotGrunt

11-15-2023, 02:56 AM

CamaroNOS

11-15-2023, 03:03 AM

Lets rack it up to inflation, stagnation, desperation, taxation and finally starvation.

Lord help me.....

CamaroNOS

11-15-2023, 02:46 PM

Well.....this is interesting.

The car VIN does not exist in the data bank, George just confirmed that. So most likely the VIN is from a U.S. ordered/sold Camaro.

Now what?

Zedder

11-15-2023, 02:52 PM

Not surprising given that the BJ description clearly states that it is a recreation done on an Arizona rust free car…

Lot #979 - This 1969 Chevrolet Camaro COPO re-creation received a no-expense-sparred rotisserie restoration and is a rust-free Arizona car. Featuring all correct ZL1 parts and panels, quality components, NOS pieces and radio delete. Finished in a Dusk Blue over a black interior. Powered by 427ci aluminum ZL1 V8 engine mated to a manual transmission. The limited-edition engine block was purchased from GM in 2005 and is fitted with a heavy-duty 4-core radiator with curve neck as well as a Holley carburetor.

CamaroNOS

11-15-2023, 03:17 PM

How about a NCRS report now?

This would explain why there is no previous Ontario ownership prior to 2013. It has had only two owners from Ontario as per the MTO print out.

Paul

Bear70

11-15-2023, 03:56 PM

Thanks so much Paul, looking forward to the results regardless of what they may be

CamaroNOS

11-15-2023, 11:23 PM

I have never written or requested information from the NCRS group for vehicle information. I do know the information is very limited and may or may not be help full to you.

Anybody in the Sates available to explain what comes with a NCRS report? And if Barry (Bear70) wants that info., can somebody do that for him?

Paul

Pro Stock John

11-15-2023, 11:35 PM

This is what I got on my '67:

Rsconv68

11-15-2023, 11:49 PM

No docs, but being a Canadian should definitely help. The owner swears it is……
I’m curious if it has the correct block and all associated correct parts.

Tracker1

11-15-2023, 11:52 PM

No docs, but being a Canadian should definitely help. The owner swears it is……
I’m curious if it has the correct block and all associated correct parts.

:hmmm:

Bill Pritchard

11-16-2023, 12:11 AM

:hmmm:

x2.

Zedder

11-16-2023, 12:19 AM

From the BJ auction:

Description
Lot #979 - This 1969 Chevrolet Camaro COPO re-creation received a no-expense-sparred rotisserie restoration and is a rust-free Arizona car. Featuring all correct ZL1 parts and panels, quality components, NOS pieces and radio delete. Finished in a Dusk Blue over a black interior. Powered by 427ci aluminum ZL1 V8 engine mated to a manual transmission. The limited-edition engine block was purchased from GM in 2005 and is fitted with a heavy-duty 4-core radiator with curve neck as well as a Holley carburetor. **TITLE IN TRANSI

https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1969-CHEVROLET-CAMARO-COPO-RE-CREATION-251271

So, it appears to be a clone with a repop trim tag at this point in time. It was a US car, so there are no GM Canada docs. I guess the NCRS report would at least confirm what state it was originally delivered to.