1969 COPO engine

[gregsthe1]

Hello my name is Greg and this is my first post here. I'm 43 and live in SW Michigan (Kalamazoo area). I do not own, nor will I ever be able to own, a COPO car. Like them as much as anyone but I'm a blue-collar guy so my lot in life is to have basic driver cars to enjoy. Specifically I am a Buick guy. Did dabble in the supercar realm for a bit and owned a documented '70 GS455 Stage 1 car but recently sold it to help buy a house. Currently I only own a '65 Special 4dr 300ci 2bbl all original with 56k miles that is basically worthless but super fun to cruise around in.

The reason for my joining this group is that I have an older friend who is sitting on a valuable COPO engine and he is looking to sell it. He's 75 and not online except for basic Facebook functions, so he asked if I could help him get the word out about this engine. The engine is a '69 COPO Camaro 427 that is currently sitting in a '69 Corvette.

A little backstory: My friend bought a one-owner '69 Corvette from the original owner probably 20+ years ago. They became friends and still are to this day. I have never met the original owner of the Vette but I know he is near 80 by now and is apparently wealthy because I have heard stories from my friend about some amazing stuff this guy has. Anywho, the '69 Vette is an unrestored 427/435hp convertible with only 24,000 original miles. At some point during the original owner's ownership he pulled the engine for reasons not known by me. And then put the same engine back in, or so he thought. Fast forward to when my friend buys the car and at some point he decides to check the numbers on the motor and turns out that what was actually put back into the Vette by mistake was an original '69 COPO 427 engine! My friend tells him the original engine is not in the car and his reply was something like "huh, wonder how that happened. The original motor must be around here somewhere". My friend told him what was in there was a COPO motor and he was indifferent and seemed to not care. So the car has been sitting in a climate controlled garage for decades now and probably hasn't been on the road in at least 10-15 years. Ran and drove great when parked but my friend has many cars and did not care to do anything with it until now. The COPO engine is still in the Vette but is expected to be removed once the engine sells. I believe all of the accessories and radiator have been pulled so it's close to coming out, it's just not out yet. Not sure if he will get the original Vette engine to put back in but that is beside the point.

Now on to the engine specifics. The deck has numbers T0424MO, the back of the block is 3963512, and the heads are 3919840. It's definitely legit and so is my friend. He has been doing Camaro stuff since day 1 and has even been given a credit in a Camaro research book for his knowledge on them. He has never owned a COPO car and the engine in question is just a fluke for him so he is looking to cash out and get this thing to someone who needs it.

I can't pay to join this group so I hope it's okay that I am discussing this topic here as I am not able to post in the classified section due to being a non-paying member. If anyone is interested please pm me and I can get you his contact info to discuss it's current condition, configuration, and price. I do not have that info just trying to help him out as he is a good friend to me.

He threw out a number of $48k but I know he will sell for less.

[Charley Lillard]

Can you get pics and look for a vin on the block ?

[gregsthe1]

Yes I have the photos of the numbers I mentioned not one of the VIN. I was trying to add them to the original post but couldn't so I'll try in this post. Serious buyers can reach out to him and he can get you any additional photos or info you want/need. Engine is located in Battle Creek Michigan.

[BCreekDave]

VIN might be down by the oil filter.
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=9711a964fd7a2ebba397f93b802156 af&topic=15093.msg134319#msg134319

[gregsthe1]

I will ask him to look there and send me a clear photo showing the VIN.

[Keith Seymore]

Welcome. I'm just east of Lansing.

K

[gregsthe1]

Welcome. I'm just east of Lansing.

K

I see you own several Pontiacs and a Chevy. My first car was a '74 Chevelle I bought in 1995 when I was 14. Can you pm me a photo of it? Would love to check it out!

[BCreekDave]

I will ask him to look there and send me a clear photo showing the VIN.

He may not be able to see it. Dumbest place to stamp a number. rough cast surface and if there is much paint it fills in the numbers pretty quick.

[gregsthe1]

He may not be able to see it. Dumbest place to stamp a number. rough cast surface and if there is much paint it fills in the numbers pretty quick.

10-4 thank you.

Can't help but ask because of your username, are you in Battle Creek? Do you know Vic? Lots of people from this area know him or know of him.

[BCreekDave]

No, Beavercreek Ohio. Battle Creek is nicer for sure.

[gregsthe1]

No, Beavercreek Ohio. Battle Creek is nicer for sure.

:haha:

[gregsthe1]

He took a photo of the oil filter area. Doesn't appear to be a number there but maybe under the paint?

[Mr70]

Numerals & scuffing possible in here?

[gregsthe1]

That's what we were thinking too. It's not a good spot to wire brush so that location's numbers, if they exist there, would likely have to wait until it gets pulled out to reveal.

[Keith Seymore]

I see you own several Pontiacs and a Chevy. My first car was a '74 Chevelle I bought in 1995 when I was 14. Can you pm me a photo of it? Would love to check it out!

PM sent -

K

[TimG]

Try lacquer thinner on a rag first. Nothing abrasive on an original engine stamp is the "safety first" technique.

[BCreekDave]

Several go -arounds with lacquer thinner or paint stripper. I had to take several photos at different angles to see most of mine with my iPhone. Different lighting helps. Flash, no-flash. Even then, i couldn't see all of the characters.

[Rsconv68]

Damn…..I thought I was special and nobody else got the Hooper happy face signature.

[Copo_Cartel]

I know your friend wants approximately $48,000 for this MO COPO motor and it’s negotiable as you have mentioned possibly…. it would be a good gesture for him to spend $30 to make you or himself a paid member on this site. It’s shocking that I even had to mention that.

[gregsthe1]

Sorry that won't happen. I will likely never return here once this engine is sold as I will have no reason to. I'm a Buick guy. I appreciate the site and it's potential to help out my friend but I am not making anything on this so I respectfully decline. The engine is cross posted to other sites as well. He took 2 or 3 calls about it yesterday but as of now I am not aware if a deal has been made or not so I'm assuming not yet.

When I spoke to him yesterday about all of the conversations being had he did give me some more info about it's past and how it came to be in the hands of the previous owner.

I was told that the engine was found and purchased from a classified ad placed in our local Kalamazoo Gazette newspaper sometime in the mid-80's. When purchased the buyer learned that the Camaro it came out of was an automatic and silver in color. Not sure if the buyer saw that with his own eyes or was merely told that by the seller. And he remembers hearing that the original silver car was purchased new at Berger Chevrolet, which is only about 45 minutes away from here. A local Berger COPO enthusiast reached out to me yesterday via Facebook to say he also believes that based on the numbers it is likely to have been a Berger car. Anyways, that's some good info and hopefully helps narrow it down some.

I plan to meet with him one day maybe next week to try and remove chemically some of the paint in an attempt to retrieve a VIN from the block. If/when that happens I will report back here.

And if anyone is interested in seeking more info or talking to Vic please let me know via pm and I can forward his contact info.

[Pro Stock John]

Keep us posted, very exciting to follow!

[Kurt S]

I think this is probably from Kevin Suydam's car. I sent Kevin an email to his comcast account - no reply.
Btw, the price is more than ZL1 motors have gone for.....

[gregsthe1]

Yes it's listed at a high price to start. But as previously mentioned the price will be less as the seller is motivated. He is 75 now and will never do anything with it, so he genuinely wants to get this to someone who needs it and can appreciate it.

I got on him about the VIN and this weekend he's going to clean the paint off and try to get some good photos of any numbers present. If he can't accomplish it on his own I'll head over there next week to help. Any new info/photos will be added when they become available. And again, if anyone is interested in speaking to him all you have to do is ask!

And thanks for having this conversation with me. I appreciate you guys being open to having a new member discuss some serious stuff.

[gregsthe1]

Oh and I received some more clarity about how the engine came to be in the Vette. I thought I remembered him saying that it was put back in by mistake but I guess the story is the original Vette engine was burning oil so they pulled it and just threw in whatever engine he had lying around. And because the engine in question was a 427 it was thrown in and the Corvette was continued to be driven. The original owner was indifferent, that part was true, and didn't seem to care that a valuable COPO engine had inadvertently been installed when revealed later.

[Pro Stock John]

Maybe a local-ish member like Scuncio could meet up with you guys when you look at the stampings. Not a bad drive for you Tony. :)

[olredalert]

Maybe a local-ish member like Scuncio could meet up with you guys when you look at the stampings. Not a bad drive for you Tony. :)

----There would have to be someone closer as Kalamazoo is a long way from Tony and I....Bill S

[Copo_Cartel]

It is very selfish of the block owner and yourself to come to this site and expect to hopefully sell a motor north of 40K but too cheap to support a site for a mere $30. And yes you are trying to sell it here. Btw there are plenty of Buick guys on this site.

[EZ Nova]

I agree with COPO Cartel. BUT if the guy can get $20K for this engine, he's doing good in my books as the new "owner" will surely need to freshen it up.

[gregsthe1]

Tell you what, I'll meet you guys halfway. If the engine sells to someone here I'll personally donate $100 to the site.

I plan on telling him that if someone offers $20k to take it. There's a rebuilt COPO race engine listed on eBay for $50k so I think that's where he came up with the starting price. He knows it's not worth that much and as I said he will most certainly accept much less but first it takes someone who's in need and serious before he'll start negotiating down.

I appreciate all of the comments and concerns as they are warranted. But I'm not interested in doing anything deceitful or malicious so I'm fine with where I stand.

[Pro Stock John]

Have you guys tried removing the paint in that spot?

[gregsthe1]

He said he was going to try this weekend so hopefully he can get me some decent photos of it. I told him if not then I'd try to make it over there one day this week to help him. He's about an hour away from me so it's not easy to just pop over there. When it happens I'll report back here with findings.

[napa68]

I'll second Doug's comments. We are having a discussion to sell a 40k engine, and no one involved will spend $30?

It's not my decision, but think it is appropriate to kill this thread.

[Steve Shauger]

Greg, I see you understand the rules and knowingly posted a for sale ad in a non classified forum. This is very unfair to our contributing members. I was aware and had hoped you would have become a contributing member, but after 6 days you feel you are entitled and don't need to follow the rules.

I have no choice but to remove your post. This site has well established and has maintained a membership of serious hobbyist, historians, restorers, service providers and collectors.

I will be removing it shortly. If you do sell it from the site no need to send any money!!

[gregsthe1]

Okay I'm out! Please delete my account.

[1967 4K]

What account?

[1903USMCUnertl]

Not for nothing, but $30 is a VERY VERY small price to pay for having the ability to list an item worth thousands. I completely understand if the site isn't devoted to what you collect....but the item you are hoping to sell... is.

Personally I'd have looked at the $30 as no different than a "listing fee."

Whether your intention was to alienate people or not...IMO that is what you did.

Hopefully the owner of the car and the engine are able to make a deal...but based on this thread...I'd expect that to be a difficult process.

[scuncio]

It’s wild to me that someone is so opposed to letting go of $30.

[Steve Shauger]

Greg no longer wanted to be a member which I accomodated. What is more important is reuniting this engine with the COPO. The owner of the COPO has been notified and hopefully he will make contact with the engine owner. Also if anyone needs contact information LMK and will, provided you are the COPO owner or represent the owner.

I am leaving this thread up to help reunite the engine & COPO.

[Mr70]

Okay I'm out! Please delete my account.
What account?

On account of him not wanting to pay anything. :burnout:

[iluv69s]

I guess I am wrong, but I thought the sight allowed in the past one time FOR SALE posts without membership for just this situation ?

I guess we should probably be thankful that the guy skirted the rules and posted anyway. Another COPO car my get it’s original engine.

I think we may miss out on some rare cars/parts if the site does not allow one time posts.

Jmho

[Steve Shauger]

I guess I am wrong, but I thought the sight allowed in the past one time FOR SALE posts without membership for just this situation ?

I guess we should probably be thankful that the guy skirted the rules and posted anyway. Another COPO car my get it’s original engine.

I think we may miss out on some rare cars/parts if the site does not allow one time posts.

Jmho

The post is still up correct? As I stated previously if the owner of car needs contact info I will provide. You can post in any forum except classified. The owner of the car was contacted via this site. If Greg just posted he had a copo engine and would love to reunite that wouldn't be an issue. when he put it for sale at $48k and made a few snarky coments refusing to become a paid member, that is crossing the line. Imho

[Tuna Joe]

Quick question as I’m not well versed on COPO stuff.
If the owner of the COPO car that this engine came out of doesn't want the COPO engine for 40k,
why would anyone else pay such a large sum of money for it?
In other words what’s special about it other than the engine pad stamping?
For someone to build a tribute car?

[ryanchevelle]

I don’t think anyone else will pay that kind of money. It’s worth the most to be reunited with the car. Actually Id be willing to guess it’s worth the most to the guy who has it now. That’s usually the way it goes. If someone had a copo and wanted the next best thing to the original motor then they would go a route like this. Real copo motor or a CE copo motor. I doubt someone would invest that kind of money on a tribute, especially considering what tributes sell for compared to the ask here.

[iluv69s]

The post is still up correct? As I stated previously if the owner of car needs contact info I will provide. You can post in any forum except classified. The owner of the car was contacted via this site. If he just posted he had a copo engine and would love to reunite that wouldn't be an issue. when he put it for sale at $48k and made a few snarky coments refusing to become a paid member, that is crossing the line. Imho


I realize you allowed his post. Kind of proves my point. These rare cars and parts posted here for us is more important than a one time payment of $30 for the site.

Guy did offer to make $100 Dollar donation if sold. He is only a middle man helping an elderly seller. Seemed fair.

I wonder how many folks would have posted thier rare car/part here for sale but could not, só they sold it else where. And we here lost the opportunity.

This site is not as ‘exclusive’ as it used to be. All the Yenko VINS are public for years now. Seller would most likely have gotten the same result if he posted on FB. Many of the ‘in the know’ folks are there also. I see Kurt S on FB all the time helping with info.

I’d bet that some of the sellers from FB that ended up with thier posts eventually copied here, may have tried to sell here first… so we lost the opportunity to buy first.

BTW, I think it was great when you ( the site) added the “FB and other for sale category!!

I respectfully think you should rethink the “No want ad posts at all if not a member” policy .

Appreciate all you do and this site !! Cheers

[big gear head]

Greg no longer wanted to be a member which I accomodated. What is more important is reuniting this engine with the COPO. The owner of the COPO has been notified and hopefully he will make contact with the engine owner. Also if anyone needs contact information LMK and will, provided you are the COPO owner or represent the owner.

I am leaving this thread up to help reunite the engine & COPO.

Was the VIN on the block found? How was the owner of the car contacted if the VIN on the block was not found?

[Steve Shauger]

Was the VIN on the block found? How was the owner of the car contacted if the VIN on the block was not found?
My understanding is it was known that the engine came out of a silver automatic COPO. This COPO is silver automatic, and has a POP which matches the engine assembly date. To definitively determine the engine VIN needs to be verified. And the story continues....

[chevyman0429]

Im no expert when it comes to these rare cars but if we haven’t seen the vin yet how do we know exactly what car it came out of ? If my memory serves Right didn’t Morrolis Chevrolet on Gratiot Ave have a silver copo stolen off their lot that was never recovered?

[luzl78]

Yes and this is the engine from that car……..maybe?

[Steve Shauger]

Im no expert when it comes to these rare cars but if we haven’t seen the vintage yet how do we know exactly what car it came out of ? If my memory serves Right didn’t Morrolis Chevrolet on Gratiot Ave have a silver copo stolen off their lot that was never recovered?

Correct!
I'm assuming you meant VIN not vintage.
This is what I stated previously:
"To definitively determine the engine VIN needs to be verified."

[Copo_Cartel]

I am glad the guy is gone….we have all wasted $30 He should have shown up with hat in hand and without arrogance. Maybe if the gentleman that has the car and I hope that it is his motor will feel generous to donate $30 because of finding his engine through the site.

[William]

Im no expert when it comes to these rare cars but if we haven’t seen the vintage yet how do we know exactly what car it came out of ? If my memory serves Right didn’t Morrolis Chevrolet on Gratiot Ave have a silver copo stolen off their lot that was never recovered?

Two ZL-1 Camaros were stolen from Merollis Chevrolet; one was a silver 4-speed. The car was recovered.

Not the same car.

[EZ Nova]

I fully agree with Steve. You want to get the $$$ out of the engine, but can't spend the $30.00 or didn't want to unless the engine sells?

This engine is only "worth" what someone will pay for it. And it's only special to the matching cars VIN. Other then that, it's your typical run-of-the-mill 427 with maybe a extra $500/$1000 for possibly being a COPO engine.

As it sits, I wouldn't give him $10K for it. Now some may feel it's worth a bit more if it's close to there original engine build date or whatever. But what would it add value wise to the original car? $30k, $50K? Plus you have to freshen it up and see if everything is still usable and in good shape? Is it bore .125 over already?????

[mprice]

I agree with EZ Nova, as soon as I seen it on Facebook I messaged him and suggested he should adjust the price to a realist number and he might sell it. I also agree that 10k is that number.

[Formula455SD]

I fully agree with Steve. You want to get the $$$ out of the engine, but can't spend the $30.00 or didn't want to unless the engine sells?

?

It's not the op's engine so why would he want to fork out $30? The op was just trying to help out a friend that isn't on the internet. Shame on the op for trying to help a guy out....

[ryanchevelle]

Doesn’t matter. He can’t walk into a swap meet and just set up a table because he’s helping a friend out. Can I see both sides of this coin sure. But I wouldn’t want to be the owner of the car that has to negotiate on an item the owner already values at 3-4x its actual value and won’t pay $30 to advertise it. And on the flip side I’m not ripping a perfectly good motor out of my car and then having to replace it with another motor and all the work that goes along with that unless it’s lucrative to do so

[PeteLeathersac]

‘

Great when any Factory Stamping Original HiPo Engine surfaces, especially when car known/existing!
10-thou seems right on but whatever the #, hopefully both seller & buyer can make it happen.
Otherwise, lots of great points from all sides but OP starting w/ a for sale thread indeed what set things off also other than not wanting to buck up, his postings seemed reasonable and he did offer the C-note when prompted…so, bummer the way things ended up but best we learn from the experience if possible?
As others have noted, we don’t want to miss one-time posters w/ parts/info to share so all being as simple as possible important also considering age of many who lived these cars new, easily found help posting comments/questions/pictures etc.
Best of luck to subject buyer and seller also long live the sYc!:headbang:
:beers:
~ Pete

.

[Tuna Joe]

My take?
If the old guy with the COPO engine can figure out basic “Facebook stuff” he can figure out how to pay Steve the $30 bucks to advertise on this site.

[big gear head]

I hope someone comes back and lets us know if a deal was made and if it actually was reunited with the car, or at least if the VIN was found.

[COPO140]

The seller (older gentleman) is very well versed and capable of advertising and selling the engine. When I spoke to him, I did end up offering him 10k for the engine. It has none of the correct COPO items on it and the value is in the block imo. He seemed insulted. I asked about 20k and he said it wasn't worth his time to sell it for 20k. I finally asked about him selling the vette with the engine in it. it's a 69 427 car with NO documentation as a 427 car. He stated for 75k or better he would sell the car with the engine. I wouldn't waste your time unless it's the original engine for your car.

[Steve Shauger]

If I owned the car and this engine is original to I would have no problem spending 20k. If it was built close but not original to the car 10k. Be patient and bet it works out.

[Pro Stock John]

If someone owns the car it's a find of a lifetime.

I think the guy who posted it here on the site definitely got some value for the seller, Kurt posted it could be Kevin S's COPO pretty early on.

I hope the engine matches to a car out there.

[69 Post Sedan]

I can remember 15 years ago, someone on this site selling just the bare block for a COPO for $10k. And he had a couple of them for sale if I remember correctly.

So I personally don’t think $20k for the original motor to a COPO is out of the realm.

Kurt