B-Motion Prod. #'s Bogus?

[whitetop]

Hello 69 Motion, I think Joels figure of 300 '67-'69 Camaros are bogus. In my opinion Joel's figure of 500 total cars were never built.
Here are some reasons why, in my opinion, these cars were never made in the quantities claimed:
1. Joel basically sold these cars from 67-73, some in '74.
That comes out to 1.37 cars per week. Really though you should lop off '67 & 73 because that was the begining and ending years so less cars were probably built in those years. That makes the weekly figure even higher. If you take his figure of 300 Camaros in 67-69 that comes out to 2 per week!! Let alone not counting the Chevelles, Novas (supposedly 100 made from a BM Nova owner, where are they Rich?), Biscaynes etc. Was Joel really able to process all these cars through his little 4-6 bay shop with his meager staff? Day in day out for 52 weeks per year? One of my customers has a new car dealership and was customizing brand new trucks(stripes, aero kits etc). He was totally surprised the large crew (paperwork, detail, bodyshop etc) it took just to do some simple customizing, let alone change engines etc. I at one time I had just about every New York based magazine, all years, all issues that featured Motion stuff. Always, always it was the same cars featured over and over. In one issue the car was going to a South American cattle baron and the next year, different magazine, that same car was going to a oil sheak in Tehran, Iran. 2.When pictures were taken of the outside of Joels shop, as many were, how come you did not see these cars that were being processed/transformed in the background? Surely you would see many of these cars sitting in the lot, in the bays etc. But you do not. You do see some race cars and employees cars. 3. Where are these cars today? Most of the really rare cars(Shelby, Zl-1, Yenko) are at least half if not more accounted for, whether restored, wrecked, stolen etc. I have kept track of all the Motion cars featured in magazines or for sale over the last 10 years and have come up with about 25-28 cars of all types. Where is the other 475? How come these prior owners have not come forth? If 10% of the original owners kept these really rare cars where are these 50 cars. 4. When you talk with the people who have these cars they give you a really low production figure for their own particular model. The man who owns the '73 Chevelle I believe said only one was built that year. Mark Timken just bought a '68 BM Camaro, and said it is the only one that is accounted for today. If I'm not mistaked Mark told me only 6-8 were built in '68. Remember the figure above? 5. The price. If GM had a hard time selling 69 ZL-1 Camaros at 7-8K how did Joel sell his cars for 7-10K, which many did sell for. 6. Why does Joel just not come out and give his production numbers if there is not something to hide? he does not have to give serial #'s, just production numbers. Don Yenko did not seem to mind sharing his numbers the best he could. I know this is going to raise a hornets nest. I may be wrong on everthing I've said (and will admit to it) but based upon the info/facts this is what I have come up with. I truly like BM stuff because I come from a street machine background. I would love to have one. I am not taking anything away from these great cars. I do like them better than Yenko's because they are all different. I just think these huge production numbers that are being thrown about need to have some refutiation now and then. One question though: If someone bought in a car off the street and Motion added an intake/exhaust was that considered a BM car? Then it may be 500 cars. Still being able to give an opinion in this country(for now) this is how I feel. I will give what I feel are the actual numbers this weekend. Any comments?

[rbernat]

WHITETOP,
YOUR CONCERN OVER B/M PRODUCTION FIGURES DOES HAVE SOME MERIT.ONLY MR ROSEN HAS THE EXACT FIGURES AND WE CAN ONLY GO BY HIS QUOTES OR STATEMENTS ON THIS SUBJECT.I CAN TELL YOU THAT IN MY HOME STATE OF NJ THAT MANY B/M CARS HAD BEEN PARTED OUT OR DESTROYED.I KNOW OF QUITE A FEW B/M ENGINE CONVERSIONS IN MY AREA,BUT AN ENGINE TRANSPLANT ON A NON BALDWIN CAR DOES NOT GIVE IT BALDWIN/MOTION STATUS.JOEL WAS EVEN QUOTED ON THIS.WE MUST REMEMBER THAT MOTION HAD QUITE AN ADVERTISING CAMPAIGN IN THE MAJOR MAGAZINES AT THAT TIME.SURELY QUITE A BIT OF WORK WAS GENERATED FROM THIS.HOW ABOUT THE MOTION/MARKOWITZ OLDSMOBILES?.DOES THIS PARTNERSHIP INDICATE THAT JOEL DID NOT HAVE ENOUGH WORK?HOW MANY OF THESE CARS DO YOU KNOW OF?I KNOW THAT YOUR STATEMENT IS TO TRY TO GET THE FACTS AND I LIKE YOU HAVE BEEN KEEPING A RECORD OF THE ONES THAT SURFACE.A POINT THAT I CAN MAKE IS.I KNOW MR ROSEN IS A TRUE BUSINESSMAN,AT ONE POINT EVEN PURCHASING HIS OLD CARS FOR RESALE.WHY WOULD HE INFLATE HIS PRODUCTION NUMBERS WHEN WE ALL KNOW THAT RARITY CAN BE A MAJOR SELLING POINT?JUST A THOUGHT ON THIS SUBJECT.

[whitetop]

Hello Rich, you make some very good points also. Yes Motion did have a very large advertising campaign. Many of the "New York" based publications had not just one but as many as 3-4 Bm ads in each issue. A problem develops here though. Many of these magazines were regional based in the Northeast. Had a small readership. I have talked with many people from the midwest and western states and most, back then, had never heard of Hot Cars, Rodder & Super Stock, Chevy Action etc. because these magazines were not originally available in those areas. My point is that this put the people west of the Missisippi at a disadvantage over BM sales back in '67-'73. Yenko did have a pretty decent dealership sales force throughout the country while BM did not, and Yenko only sold slightly over 200+ cars. I grew up with the NY based publications and new of BM. I worked full time for the National Muscle Car Association from '90-'93, before it went to the race car format as it is today. We had many knowledgable/"in the know" collectors in the membership and being a BM fanatic I remember asking them questions and most knew very little or nothing at all about the subject. These were people who had their car collections in magazines or were used as sounding boards for information. Why is it that everyone has heard of Yenko for years and inumerable magazine articles/books have been written on the subject, based on the "meager" 201/211? cars made. According to Joel, 500 BM cars were made. Common sense would dictate that based upon this figure alone more people would know about BM on car count, but this is not the case. So what does that tell you?. Musclecar Review magazine was probably one of the first to push the BM material back in 92-93 and went somewhat heavy with the material in '96-'98. I saw a program on TNN last year with Chuck Hansen of Horsepower TV, Chevelle club president/ex Car Craft editor fame. He made the comment that while hearing of BM, had never seen one of the cars in person. I'm sure he could not say that about Yenko's. I know you have bought your BM Nova brand new and Joel has told you that approximately 100 Novas were made. How many of the other 99 Nova owners have contacted you or have you run across. I'm just curious. As a final thought maybe Joel inflates the car count to make the BM mystique bigger than it actually was? Or not be second fiddle to Yenko maybe? Joel was quoted in an interview in a magazine several years ago that when the EPA was putting pressure on him in '74 he admitted he was just a small speed shop and everything was blown out of proportion in terms of car sales(or something to that effect). Hmmm.. I will have to dig that article out.
Whitetop

[rbernat]

whitetop,
your absolutely right in regards to motions influence in the eastern usa.motions ads were also heavy due to the fact that mr rosen was even labeled road test consultant and technical advisor in these magazines.in exchange for this motion ran these ads.that would most likely explain why many people including the govt.thought motion was a big
company.many motion cars in my area were just considered modified "hot rod"automobiles and treated as such."beat to the ground"i seem to remember public re-awarness in b/m cars after superchevy and car review magazine covered some cars in 1984-1985.i believe one of the reasons for the small number of b/m cars is the fact that after the cars have passed thru countless owners its finally regarded as just a modified car.without the paperwork or the motion emblems,decals ect the average person will not know.the engine numbers do not match"in most cases"so its just a hot rod.a case in point was the chevelle advertised on e-bay.pictures of this car show no real proof except fot the repro decal.it appears that only after finding the build sheet from baldwin chev.did a clue appear.this car was documented only a few months ago according to the date on the motion document.the high bid is another matter for discussion,is it worth that amount?
rich

[whitetop]

Hello Joe;

I'm not sure if AHRA or NHRA for that matter required that you have at least 50 examples to run in those 2 classes, Hot Rod & Modified Production. I always thought those two classes were "run what you brung" and cars were classed by cubic inch size. Now the Stock & Super Stock classes, yes required at least 50 examples, i.e Zl-1, Hemi Dart & Barracuda's etc. HR & MP I thought were an early form of bracket racing. How did the Boss 429 Mavericks get to run in MP. I think I remember seeing many run in that class, but I could be wrong. Any racers out there know the answer to this?
whitetop

[COPO]

This is quite an interesting post. After all these years, no one (except perhaps Joel) really has an idea of how many were BM cars were built. Whitetop makes some excellent points and I would tend to believe a much lower production number than 500. Not sure what Joel would gain by inflating the #'s. Perhaps he is counting the cars modified by his shop that were not purchased as new cars thorugh the BM dealership. Very interested to see where this post goes and if a close number is determined. I was one of the bidders for the EBAY BM Chevelle. It appears the market does not value the car as high as the owner as the reserve was not met after exceeding $41,000. After a $30,000 resto would the car be worth over $70K???? Perhaps.

[Fhakya]

Anyone consider getting ahold of Bill Mitchell? He's pictured in many of the old B/M write ups in HP-Cars Mag etc. as doing the modifying, tuning & testing so he would know, correct? Is he the same as "Bill Mitchell's Hardcore Racing Products"?

Just a thought.

[JoeC]

It is difficult to even estimate the number of cars Motion built but I believe he sold at least 50 1967 427 Camaros. An editorial in the Nov. 1967 CARS Magazine states that Motion built over 25 1967 427 Camaros and a few Chevelles in the first few months of 1967. In the same magazine there is a Motion ad thanking CARS Magazine for sponsoring the 1967 Motion SS-427 Camaro drag car which set two national AHRA records in 1967. They were: B/Hot Rod-F2 (122.44, 11.37) and B/ Modified Production-F2 (122.95, 11.33).
I believe that in order to race in AHRA classes you had to prove that your car was one of at least 50 cars built from an approved manufacturer. I have read that the Chevrolet Engineering Product Performance Group (Vince Piggin's covert racing dept.) supported the independents, who just happened to be tied in with Chevy dealers, to build at least 50 427 Camaros each to get them on the drag strip. Chevy needed to kick some Mustang butt to sell more Camaros. Bill Thomas Race Cars & Nickey/Harrell, Dana, Yenko/Harrell, and Motion/Baldwin, all had a previous history with race cars. As a side note, a guy named Mike Garfinkel who was a 1966 AHRA national champ., ran a 1967 427 Camaro sponsored by "Yenko Camaro Dealers" and by Dick Harrell. Harrell drove the car himself at the AHRA Spring Nationals in Odessa, TX.
I beleive Yenko sold at least 450 Supercars from 67 to 69 and Motion claimed in thier ads to be the largest Chevy Hi Performance dealer. I wonder how accurate Joel's records are. Don Yenko over stated his production numbers in an interview right before he died - or maybe just didn't remember them correctly.

[MrMotion]

This is a very interesting topic and most liking only to those of us who followed these cars in their time. Iam in the process of doing some historical research on a 1968 Camaro that we found thruogh parts ads. This car was a rolling chassis car we purchased it a got a GM Canada Documentation certificate that stated the car was equipped with the L78 SHP 396-375 HP engine, 4sd m22 ordered with a 4:88 gear, BLK EXT BLK DELUX INT ,full tint am-fm mutiplex white hockey stick stripe. After one year and countless phone calls, government dot listings only go back to 1977, through word of mouth one name came out which e traced. This gentleman was a GM research and development engineer who waspart of the team that developed the MarkIV engines. He ordered this car has the original numbered motor and parts,which we are ging to pickup.Original factory invoice. He trailered the car to BaldwinMotion shortly after and had the conversion done and has original bills from B/Mfor this work, and he says it took three days to do! Through our conversations he apparently was an very good aquaintance with the likes of Bill Jenkins,Smokey Yunick, Jack Roush. there are also picturse to document this car and we have already received pictures from other owners showing the condition of this car at different years. This car also held the a stock record at Detroit Dragway in 68.I believe this is not a true Baldwin Motion car but a Motion Performance coversion that is probably included in the total number of Motion Cars that Mr. Rosen can also document. He has verified to us that he can document this work with our documentation. We will keep you posted on the progress.

[JoeC]

I don't have the 1967 rule books but it was something like NHRA had SS/A through SS/J that allowed only factory built 50 or more cars. AHRA had their own classes like A/HR and B/HR that allowed 50 or more from other manufactures such as Yenko, Dana, Nickey, Motion. The article with the 1967 427 Camaro with Yenko/Harrell sponsorship ran in A/HR and was considered stock with a 427 with two Carter AFB 4B Carbs. Later I believe Harrell ran AHRA GT1 and GT2 classes. Getting back to the Motion cars, one of the best articles I have read was a Martyn Schorr article in MuscleCar Magazine 1986. Martyn refers to Joel as guy from Brooklyn with an attitude and refers to himself as a guy from the Bronx with an attitude. The article has the Motion story from 1959 thru 1980s and lists the many projects Motion was involved in. There is a picture of the Motion King Cobra on the Clayton chassis dyno with a wall of trophies in the background. There are pictures and info on; the 427 Camaro drag cars, the L88 Corvette drag car, Joel talking with Zora at the 1967 NY Hot Rod Show, Bill Mitchell's record holding Thunder Bug VW sponsored by Motion MiniCar, the Phase III GT Corvettes, the wild looking Motion/Silva Maco Sharks, the Manta Rays, and IMSA Spyder Corvettes, and the Dennis Ferrara record holding second gen. 454 Camaro drag cars, a street 1973 454 Camaro with a huge tunnel ram hood, the Z30 small block Camaros, and the V8 Vegas. As if Motion wasn't busy enough, he also had a mail order parts business, was selling tech books under the name Phase III publications, had Motion Marine, built some show cars, and did come Motion Camaros and Monte Carlos in the mid 80's.
Martyn does not mention any production numbers but states that the second gen Motion Camaros were the most successful since there was not as much competition in the big block Supercar market place after 1970. Maybe Motion did sell 500 cars if you total them all. Does anyone know if Martyn Schorr is still on Mother Earth?

[whitetop]

Hello Joe C.

Martyn Schorr is still alive & kicking I was just told, not sure what he is up to. Musclecar Review had a feature on a 70-72 Phase III Camaro 2-3 years ago, red with black stripes. Didn't the owner say their was a total of 74-76 second generation Motion Camaros made? Or I may have heard this from Brad Fanshaw who owns the red/white MSVega who grew up in Omaha and was familiar with that car.

There were two NY based publication from the mid '70's that always had a lot of Motion Street machines in them. Street Power and Street Racer were their names. Really really cheap pulp magazines. But cool as heck. They are really hard to find. I pulled out one last night and it had a 70 1/2 Phase III Camaro in it. Randy Columbo was the owner from Blue Pointe N.Y. Car had the words "The Godfather" on it's rear quarter's above the Motion stripes. Car in the feature was modified above and beyond how it came from Motion. Tunnel ram etc. I happened to run across Randy by chance at the NMCA car show at Maple Grove in PA in '93. I asked him about the Motion car and he said it was long gone and he tried many times over the years to find it. (just like what you said Rbernat). Randy did mention the hood was still hanging up in his garage.
Another car in the same mag was the original '67 BM Camaro race car that was Butternut yellow. This WAS the same one you saw in all the original BM ads. Robert E. "Reb" Brown from Hornell NY bought it from Joel. That car still had all the Motion goodies on it, NMW tow tabs, Mr. Gasket AC, Sun gauges, Motion traction bars etc. The only thing that was done to it was a repaint of the original Butternut yellow paint. This magazine was from August '76. Wonder where these two cars are today?
Whitetop

[restorer]

I was wondering about the prices of these cars (B/M, Nickey,Dana)I don't know a lot about the Chevelle and if it is a COPO or not, but if it is a conversion car what is driving the price. I am originally from a small town in Md. and the local Chevy dealer sold a few hi-perf Corvettes and Camaros but never any transplants that I know of, my question is if they did would it be worth huge dollars too? I dont think so, I understand COPOs bringing the dollars but not one that was transplanted. I could do that too

[COPO]

restorer,

The value of the Yenko, Motion, Dana, Nickey cars is derived from them being modified but sold as NEW cars through the dealership. A used car brought in for an engine swap is not perceived by the market to be nearly as valuable. I don't think $50,000 for the BM Chevelle is out of line. With a $30,000 resto the owner will have invested $80,000 for a car with 3 or so existing. '69 restored BM camaros and Yenkos bring those kind of dollars or more. I hope the new owner restores the car and shows it occasionally. Would be a shame if it's locked away in a collection never to be seen. Sounds like a candidate for next year's Supercar Reunion!

[rbernat]

fifty thousand seemed to be a bit high for this car considering only the original l-78 build sheet and motion verification form was included.there were too many questions in regards to how the car was actually delivered from motion.i have seen many motion cars and their always phase threes.does anyone know if the motion verification form states it being a phase three?.i have documented a few motion cars thru joel and have never been told that it was a phase three car without receiving the order form or submitting the paperwork that i have to joel.back in 1984 for $500.00 i received the b/m order form along with decals and motion fender badges.i know that the documenting fee has tripled but their should be some paperwork.

[69motion]

maybe you all are right maybe joel didnt 500 cars as he stated

[Edited by 69motion (07-31-2000 at 07:18 PM).]

[whitetop]

Joe C gave a long list of different Motion cars. How is this for something different. Chevy Action 1976, 1st Qtr, has a Motion Phase III wreck truck featured. It had 454, Phase III hood, emblems, valve covers etc. This is not a joke. Seems the owner commissioned Joel to build him a fast truck. This truck was also in Hot Rod in the readers letter section in 1977-78. Motion also built Phase III Chevy Blazers with all the Motion stuff. Mrs Rosen rode around in this one.
Again, I'm not kidding.

whitetop

[JoeC]

Here is an interesting article on a Camaro web site written by a guy who owned two cars from Motion/Baldwin and knew Joel.(not Phase III cars)
http://www.camaro-untoldsecrets.com/articles/article_fs.htm

[JoeC]

Whitetop - I believe it - Motion would hot rod anything! Motion built at least one Elcamino with a 427/425hp motor. It was featured in HP Cars mag and was built as a tow car. Another odd Motion vehicle was the V8 Vega woody wagon that Joel drove as his personal transportation.(this was also in an HP Cars article). Old Magazines are great.

[djunod]

Old topic again...

I believe another factor in the inflated numbers is EGO. People liked to be viewed as prolific.

On August 20 2002, I talked with Joel Rosen on the telephone about some Maco issues---current pricing for the Maco & Manta Ray kits that he STILL sells).

He told me flat out that he made 3 Maco's and 1 Manta Ray (Ray Pennington). Those are different numbers then I've seen in magazines.

BTW---Here's a picture of outside Silva's shop.

http://www.makoshark2.com/images/silva-shop.jpg

[edited September to August]

[Rat_Pack]

Whitetop, I think the 500 number is probably close to correct if you count all makes of cars he did: Oldsmobiles, Dodge & Plymouths, Buicks, and of course the VW's. Let me clarify, all cars he "modified" or converted including the cars from Baldwin Chevrolet. What do you think?....................RatPack.................

[copolocater]

Magazine articles were meant to sell magazines.Thats why you see plenty of supercars appearing in them today.Most of you guys know alot of the articles are derived from missinformation.Joel if anything was a promotional genius.Sure he built some of the baddest cars on the planet but he had commitments to sale,sale,sale.He's still locating and selling.He was out to sell a product and to sell a product you sometimes embellish things.I've attended shows all across the country with my parts and the most hits I've had is in the northeast.Everywhere else very few people know of B/M. It is correct most of these cars have not been found because of the obvious telltale signs.But remember nickey was also in the same catagory,no telltale signs.500 seems like alot of conversions,maybe he meant conversions not Baldwin conversions. On the corvettes I've seen more in magazines than the current production numbers that Joel has given.So has everybody else.I also agree the same cars were used numerous times in different adds. I am just curious as to why it is so important to know precise production figures.Without paperwork you can only guess anyhow.If joel came out and said I converted 250 Baldwin cars what does that answer solve.I'm not being sarcastic I'm just not understanding.

[MrMotion]

Question? How many cars were taken to Yenko Chevrolet by private owners and received an "L72 Conversion" and with documentation does it have any " Standing " with the Supercar Group?