The first X44 Yenko?

[bkhpah]

I have just received what I beleive may be the first car of the X44 1969 Yenko Camaros. The car has a build date of O2D, and the VIN starts with 608XXX. The rest of the Yenko run appears to be O3B and starts with the 613, 614, and 615XXX Vins. Can anyone come up with an X44 Yenko that is newer than that? Does anyone have an idea when the first X44 COPO's appear? I am curious if there is a earlier Yenko VIN in the second run. The car is super complete with all original metal and the original drivetrain. It is LeMans Blue/white stripe out of Van Chevrolet. Somewere along the line the first X44 COPO/Yenko had to be built. I feel that this is the car. Any thoughts?..BKH

[JoeC]

I don't know where ED C got his info used on his web site but he shows the jump from car 50 to 51 as #50 vin 587xxx sold by Yenko Chev and car #51 vin 613xxx sold by Marshall Chev. Ed showes car #90 vin 615xxx sold by Van T. Chev.
How does the date on the BE rear compare to the older and younger Yenkos? The 608xxx vin seems out of place but there are a number of reasons why that could have happened. The CRG data base may link the vin to the build date and maybe the trim tag numbers also to see if they match.

[bkhpah]

I will get all the dates to help decode this car. I have checked it before and it is all there. Now that the car is in the shop I will be able to get better info. As for body #'s. This is the kicker. It is later than another o2D Yenko that we will be doing later next year. The body number of the 608XXX car is 219842, The 614XXX car is 219729. Both cars are O2D, both are LeMans Blue with no options. The 608XXX car has been verified by Vince years ago and was the feature car in Car Review magazine @ 1985. So is the body # take first place status or does the VIN? Interesting indeed...BKH

[bkhpah]

As for Ed not listing this car, I am not sure. I think from looking at the list he posted, if he was unsure of dealer, it was listed as Yenko. Is this true Ed. It is the real McCoy...BKH

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

It is interesting that BKH references another L-Blue Y-Camaro with a later VIN but an earlier body number. The '70 Y-Novas have the same situation within the first 30 cars. The first 15 produced were C-Silver, 06A cars and have later VIN's but earlier body numbers vs. the next 15 produced, G-Beige, 05D cars. I believe this only happens within the first 30 cars, 15 Silver vs. 15 Beige, but I'm not positive.

The Y-Nova guys have discussed this 'out of sequence' situation at length, and generally agree that the body number wins out as the higher priority. We feel that the body holds the tags that make it legal for sale, and therefore the body sequence determines the order in which they were 'intended' to be produced. Some cars might get pulled for various reasons, and end up with a later VIN #, but we feel that the 'car' is essentially complete even though it might not have received it's VIN # yet. The body # is the car's first vin #, albeit for internal mfg. reasons. The body numbers also correlate directly to the 'chevy order numbers' which is issued by GM.

Any thoughts welcome, this is just one theory for the Y-Novas. The Y-Camaros are more complicated because there were many more non-Yenko COPO cars mixed in.
Marlin

[Kurt S]

I know of 2 other COPO's made at the same time as this Yenko. One was an X11, other is ??.
We don't have any earlier non-Yenkos in the db.
Does look like a transition car. Bet they got some rearends in and that's why it got scheduled. What's the axle date?

But I have the same question as Joe. Why doesn't Ed's list show this car?
BTW, N608--- should definitely be an 02D car.


[Edited by Kurt S (06-21-2001 at 10:03 AM).]

[Kurt S]

The VIN wins in this case. The VINs did get mixed up coming down the line by the max of about 100 cars. So you can't say that N512345 came down the line before N512346. But it was made before N512445.

The body # in 69 (and 70) was the order confirmation #, the # assigned by the plant when the order was received. This # was used to track the car until the car was being built and the VIN assigned. Most 69 COPO's are out of sequence relative to other cars because their builds were pushed back cause of lack of some components, mainly rearends. The Yenko body #'s are grouped together in batches because they were ordered as groups at the same time.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

KurtS;
I understand your logic, but when was the VIN # asigned to a particular car? I thought it was asigned more towards the end of the process, when the engine/trans was installed into the car. We thought the VIN was asigned much later because of the two types of paper found on the cars. One type is a crude piece of thick paper with only the body #, trim code and date typed on it, the other type is the traditional Nova Broadcast Sheet showing the Body # and the related VIN #, among other codes. Theory; the first paper was the 'instructions' until the VIN was asigned via the broadcast sheet later on down the line, (?).

The '70 Y-Novas have other situations where the body numbers are in sequence, the VIN #'s are generally increasing, but with very large gaps - like 183 cars, then 1,344 car gap, then back 742 cars, then backwards another 579, then forward..... This 'jumping' around led us to believe that batches of cars might have been pulled due to shortages, (like rears diff's), and then as parts arrived they were put back into 'line' at random thereby receiving a somewhat 'random' asignment of their VIN#, (?).

M

[Denis]

It is possible the Fisher body #'s were assigned by body style (eg coupe, convertible, 2-door, 4-door) and the VIN's sequentially by assembly line?

Seeing as how the VIN is shared between the engine, trans, trim tag, and cowl wouldn't it also make sense the VIN was assigned "down the line" once all of those components were in place?

[Chevy454]

Here's our theory: Wouldn't the VIN # have to come first? It was more than just a tag like the trim tag...it was stamped into the sheet metal itself (behind heater box on Novas & under cowl on Camaros). Fisher Body had to assemble the body before they could affix the trim tag. This explains why some cars with 6 cylinder VIN#s have V-8 trim tags, and vice versa.

[Chevy454]

There is a low mileage L-6 '69 Nova here around our town that has a 6 cylinder VIN # but a V-8 trim tag. I want to say it was just sold by the original owner, but I will have to ask dad to make for sure.

[Edited by Chevy454 (06-21-2001 at 05:27 PM).]

[COPO PETE]

When you guys get this figured out, you can help me with which came first, the chicken or the egg. In my business this would be great to have documentation on http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/laugh.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/laugh.gif
Peter

[COPO]

There is a guy on the camaros.net board w/user name JohnZ. He has extensive knowledge of this process as he was a plant manager for Chev. He explained the sequence earlier on the camaro board. Can't recall it exactly.

Also on the copo.com board when Ed C was unsure of the original selling dealership, he would list it as Yenko Chev. The was the case on my Colonial sold Yenko Camaro.

[Edited by COPO (06-22-2001 at 08:01 AM).]

[Unreal]

A bit off track from Brian's X44 question, But KurtS mentioned an X11 Yenko. Would an X11 Yenko have wheel well trim, quarter louver trim, drip rail moulding? i've seem pictures of "Yenkos" with this, but didn't know if any were actually produced that way.

[Kurt S]

The order process is documented, there is a sheet that was provided to the dealers describing how the orders were processed.

The order was placed and when it was accepted, the # which we call the body # was assigned.
When that car was able to fit into the build mix, it was scheduled. Body tag was stamped and attached to the firewall and body was built up.
When the body passed thru the wall out of Fisher, it was put into a queue for sequencing. This was so certain operations were overloaded, basically spacing the cars out, eg don't want to many convertibles in a row or AC cars, etc. In this queue, the VIN was assigned.
Proof the VIN was assigned here is the broadcast sheets all have the VIN on them. And they needed the VIN so they could sequence and stamp the engine and trans.

Marlin,
No way the cars would be scheduled if the parts weren't there or else due in a day or two and would be there when needed. They didn't schedule the body #'s in order. This topic helps show that. And once the car was started being built, it went the whole way thru the line. It would be chaos otherwise.

Denis,
Body #'s were assigned by body style and interior in LA only in 67 and by body style in LA in 68. Norwood assigned 67-8 body #'s irrespective of the body style.

454,
All 68-9 Camaro got a 124-7 trim tag, even L6 cars. The engine didn't affect Fisher Body so it wasn't coded. Should be the same with Nova's.

Charlie,
JohnZ worked for Chev back in 69, but he was the plant manager at a competitor (big hint is look at his email ID). http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

Unreal,
I said it was an X11 COPO, not an X11 Yenko. http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

Kurt

[COPO PETE]

I believe Don's personal car was an X11 car and yes it had the wheel well trim and louvers as well as the drip moulding trim. Brian, I believe can confirm this! I'm curious as to how many other Yenko's came this way. My orange COPO is a X11 car and my white COPO is a X44.
Peter

[Chevy454]

Kurt:

I did some checking, and everything I can find in my books and on the internet shows that both the VIN # and the trim tag on Camaros/Novas used either a 3 (L6) or a 4 (V-8). Now, I'm not saying that any of the info I found was correct, just telling you what I found.

So, let me see if I read the above correctly: you are saying that neither Novas or Camaros can be determined to have came originally with an L6 or a V-8 by just looking at the trim tag?

When were the VIN #s stamped on the bodies? Were they stamped AFTER the car was assembled, or on the sheet metal prior to assembly?

[Edited by Chevy454 (06-22-2001 at 11:21 AM).]

[MikeA]

I think you can determine if a Nova is a V8 or a L6 by looking at the trim/cowl tag.
My '72 Nova for example:

ST72 11427 ....

1 = Chevrolet
14 = V8
13 = L6
27 = 2 door sedan
69 = 4 door sedan
Base on information I have this appears to be accurate.

MikeA

[Edited by MikeA (06-22-2001 at 01:53 PM).]

[JoeC]

I wonder if any V8 cars with a L6 ID came with duel exhaust? They would be missing the extra bracket if they were built as L6 bodies. In 69 Norwood used two different build sheets called a "Body broadcast copy" and a "Chassis broadcast copy". There are copies of these for ZL1 #2 in the Hooper book. JohnZ had a few good post about this where he talked about the body coming "through the wall" which I think was what they called it when the body came from the Fisher side to the main assembly side. He also said the main number they used was the "Job sequence number" not the VIN. All the numbers had to tie in together at the end including the job sequence number, the VIN, the key numbers, the dealer order number, and the "ident number". The COPO cars had a bunch more numbers. JohnZ also said there were like 15 copies of the build sheet that would print out in different stations along the line. A guy, who worked on assembly in 69 said he remembers sometimes seeing a pile of build sheets on the floor of a car and they would of course through them in the garbage. here is a JohnZ post.
"Because the cowl tag was installed and used by the Fisher Body plant to serve their specific needs in welding the raw body together (from the dash panel rearward), painting it, and trimming it out. It didn't really matter to Fisher Body whether the final car was a 6 or a V-8, as that didn't affect their part of the body assembly process (except for a few things like an extra exhaust hanger reinforcement welded to the rear side rail for dual exhausts or a hole in the tunnel for a floor shift, and they had their own internal special codes for those things that didn't show up on the cowl tag). All Fisher Body supplied was the painted and trimmed body shell from the cowl rearward - everything else was installed by Chevrolet after the body came through the wall.

[camaromb]

I have been documenting yenko camaros for 10 years or so. When looking at the Yenko inventory pages it is obvious that the orders were typed in before the vin#'s were received for each car. The orders are listed by order number/body number. The first 50 X66 yenko camaros were run backwards in relation to their body number; lower vin #'s had higher body numbers. Who knows why? The 100 cars ordered 11/11/68 (second order)are typically sequenced in order of higher vin/higher body number. These are the 3B cars. The car Brian mentioned (608xxx) has a body number near the last of the 100 "March" cars. Why was it built so early, who knows. Like the Jan. built cars did they start with the highest body number/lowest vin and then change? There is a group of cars listed on the inventory pages after the January cars. These 8 cars are a mix of colors and order numbers. They are hand written in and must of been some of the early cars of the 11/11/68 order. I believe the 2nd car Brian mentions is part of this group (614xxx). There are many unanswered questions about some of the build sequences. I heard from Jim Matteson that there were problems getting rearends for these cars, thus the delay. Unfortunately most of the records are not available to us.

MB

[Kurt S]

MikeA,
The default for all the 1st gen trim tags is a V8 style code.
Your 72 has a V8 style code. You'd need to find a L6 style code to show that the Nova is different. I don't think you'll find one.....

Joe,
Had to get a V8 to option in the dual exhaust. Fisher body didn't indicate that option on the trim tag either, they handled some other way.
Yes, the sequence # or rotation # is how they tracked the cars. The body # was used by Fisher (remember the bodies were dunked to etch them and prep for paint so you couldn't use paper). Chev used the sequence # basically to keep the cars in order, since the VINs jump around. They still do it the same way today. The broadcast sheets were attached to the ends and sides of the car and taken off at different points in the line. Also still used today the same way.

The accepted orders (body #'s) were not scheduled in a very defined way. Scheduling is still an art. http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif So the body #'s will jump around some. Minor detail.

[Kurt S]

454,
Yes, you can't tell if it's a V8 or L6 by the trim tag.
Probably the most frequent question the CRG site gets. I think it's under the 'Decoding' section of the site. I'm going to have it made into it's own section to highlight it.

The VIN was stamped on the firewall and cowl after paint, but before assembly. That's why those #'s are often rusty.

[Belair62]

Are there documented cases where a 6cyl. VIN would have a V8 in it ? Doesn't sound right to me unless some serious mistake was made somewhere.

[Edited by Belair62 (06-23-2001 at 11:06 PM).]

[bkhpah]

There were some X11 Yenko Camaros. I have pictures of brand new ones on the Yenko carrier. I have only seen one in person. I was told that the one I have seen was Yenko's own ride, but I imagine he used many cars. I would side with Kurt on the VIN taking presidence over the body number. I feel that the 608 car is the first Yenko X44. There may be another non Yenko X44 earlier, but I have not seen it yet...BKH

[Chevy454]

Brian:

I am assuming the car you are referring to is Lee Dobbs' X11 Yenko (http://www.yenko.net/reunion/ldyenko.jpg) car that was at the '99 Reunion?

[bkhpah]

Thats right Rob, it was Lee Dobbs car. The X11 cars had the style trim group. Just as a guess I would say 10 of the first 50 cars were that way. Any ideas out there...BKH

[Edited by bkhpah (06-25-2001 at 06:52 AM).]