Harrell Camaro

[SuperNovaSS]

I got ahold of the original owner of my Camaro and he had pictures of it from 1973! I did my best to take pictures of them with my camera. They came out OK considering the pictures were matte finish. This is an orignal Harrell car. The flares and shaved emblems were done by the original owner. The car still has the same paint as in the photos, but it is faded and worn.
http://imagehost.auctionwatch.com/bin/imageserver.x/00000000/bronc066/harrell70s.JPGhttp://imagehost.auctionwatch.com/bin/imageserver.x/00000000/bronc066/harrell70s2.JPGhttp://imagehost.auctionwatch.com/bin/imageserver.x/00000000/bronc066/harrell70s4.JPG


Jason

[bowtie3168]

Jason,
Neat car. Old pictures like that are priceless! They speak volumes and remind us of how these cars really were. Thanks for the cool post.

Andrew

[68TopStock]

Jason,

What a great gift from the original owner! Most only have dreams about what their car looked like 30 years ago. Do you care to share more about your fantastic find? Was the original owner helpful? BTW, you have mail!

[bkhpah]

Is it a COPO 427 Harrell or a 396/427 SS Harrell converted car? My guess is a COPO with the ZL/2 hood. Auto or stick. We are working on both types. The COPO is a auto on the tree, the SS a 4 speed...BKH

[SuperNovaSS]

The car is a converted SS 396 car. It is a auto with console. I don't think the hood on the car is original because the owner told me stories of the original hood flying off more than once. Right now it has a stinger hood on it. Once it gets here I will be able to tell you more about it.


Jason

[SuperNovaSS]

The car has arrived! I can't find my Chevrolet by the numbers book though. I thought some of you guys may be able to melp me with a few numbers.
It is an O1B car.
Alt- 1100690
Master Cyl- 5468309
Rearend- BT Code

Any help would be greatly appreciated,


Jason

[SuperNovaSS]

Here are a few pictures as it looks now. I took these pictures as soon as I got the car home. Its amazing what over 20 years of storage will do. The interior is like brand new. The paint is faded and peeling,but there is no rust. It even still has the 4 tube exhaust system. I thought I would just give an update.

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[Edited by SuperNovaSS (12-06-2001 at 03:28 AM).]

[bkhpah]

The car you have is very close to the SS427 Harrell Camaro we are working on. The color and build date are the same. I canot read the body number clearly, our reads 226003. Some things from a quick glance that are different. No console, I have yet to see a Harrell Camaro with one. Are you sure its factory. The tach on all the ones I have seen have been on the dash top and were Sun units. I have never seen that older SW version mounted at the roof line. The gauges have been under dash not in the dash. The early cars used Harrell plaques on the dash, header, and deck lid. Are yours still there. From the picture the upper alternator bracket is incorrect as is the alternator. The cars used 837, 37amp units. The master cylinder and rear code are the same as ours. Door trim is from a 68. Overall it looks much the same...BKH

[SuperNovaSS]

The "door trim" is painted on. It is an original console car. I have yet to get the paperwork. What is the alternator for? The full rear code is BT 0113G2 E. The housing date A89. The original owner told me that Harrell installed a steel ZL-1(L-88) because they were having trouble with the aluminum ones cracking. I see on Harrell's ads that you could get a steel head L-88. It looks like the car still has its original heads. This confuses me since the original heads are closed chamber. As far as I know all L-88's used open chamber heads. The engine has casting 3935439 and the date is D 11 8. The number on the front is CE950807. The heads are dated L 4 8 and L 12 8. The original owner said he could not remember if he put the gauges in the car or they came that way. He had two similar cars at the same time and he had trouble remembering what he did to which. I am going to start looking for a build sheet soon, even though I have heard they are scarce in 69. The number on the tag is 209863. The VIN is 12437N580930
The Harrell emblems are long gone. All emblems were shaved from the car long ago as seen in the early 70's pics above.

Jason

[Chevy454]

Jason:

The "439" block was used in late '68 [Passenger = 427 (390hp/2-bolt, 425hp/4-bolt Corvette = 427 (390/2-bolt, 400hp/4-bolt, 430hp/4-bolt, 435hp/4-bolt)] until early '69 [Passenger = 427 (335hp/2-bolt, 390hp/2-bolt, 425hp/2-bolt) Corvette = 427 (390hp/2-bolt, 400hp/4-bolt, 430hp/4-bolt, 435hp/4-bolt)].

As for the heads, from '67-'68 the L-88s did in fact use a closed chamber aluminum head, along with the '68-'69 L-89 cars. The L-88/ZL-1 switched to an open chamber aluminum head in '69.

Looking at your pictures, I noticed the heads were painted. Are they aluminum heads or iron?

[Edited by Chevy454 (12-06-2001 at 03:52 PM).]

[SuperNovaSS]

The heads are iron. As I understand Harrell would use the steel heads off the car on the L-88 short block.



Jason

[Chevy454]

Sooo...which heads are on it? 840s?

[SuperNovaSS]

Don't know yet. I haven't pulled the covers. I looked at the dates through the breather holes.


Jason

[bkhpah]

I bet there 840's...BKH

[SuperNovaSS]

I checked the heads. There are in fact 840's.
What is the BT code rear? Did any X66 COPO cars come with an SS emblem on the steering wheel. I checked the trans code today. It has a CX code on the tag. As far as I can tell this code was only used on L72 and ZL1 cars. Any input? I also want to thank everybody for all the help!


Thanks,


Jason

[Edited by SuperNovaSS (12-06-2001 at 11:19 PM).]

[tom406]

According to the ByTheNumbers and MacNeish's
'69 Z/SS fact book, BT rearend is 3.55 POSI. Assembled Jan 13th, '69 in a carrier cast January 8th, '69. Produced at Detroit Gear and Axle, 2nd shift.

Again, re MacNeish's book, the CX trans was behind all solid lifter big block Camaros that year, be they L78 396's or L72 427's, or ZL1's, I suppose. "This trans utilized a different valve body, extra clutches, and a higher shift point than the "CE" Turbo 400"

[SuperNovaSS]

Thanks for the info on the codes. I was going on the info from the CRG site.

BKH,

What type fuel pumps do your cars have? This one has a Stewart Warner unit behind the passenger wheelwell.



Jason

[bkhpah]

It has the stock AC mechanical unit. No evidence of a fuel pump ever in the trunk. Does this car have the liquid tire chain option? ..BKH

[68TopStock]

Fred Gibb sold alot of CE replacement motors, especially at the race track. I have a reliable source who worked for Fred Gibb, he mentioned selling lots of motors, shipped on pallets, stacked to the ceiling in the shop. They ordered them 50 at a time. Also lots of transmissions, anyone ever hear of a CE M22 or M21?

I can only reasonably theorize that Dick may have ordered some of his blocks, especially in '68-'69, from Fred. They were at the track together quite a bit in the 68-71 era.

Delivery of motors and tranny's to customers at the track was an everyday occurrance, per my source.

[SuperNovaSS]

BKH,


Are there any numbers I can check to see if the alternator bracket is correct or not? I thought the bracket as well as the water pump and crank pulleys were incorrect because they were chrome. When I checked further the water pump pulley is the original, it has just been chromed(has 3947824BV stamped on it). Is there another reason you thought it might not be original?


Thanks,

Jason

[bkhpah]

It'hard to tell, but a 69 upper bracket does not have an adjustment hole...BKH

[SuperNovaSS]

Do Norwood cars usually have a build sheet? I have looked under all of the seats, under the carpet, and behind the seats. I have not pulled the door panels. I also haven't taken the gas tank out because I believe if there was one there it would have been taken out when the tank was modified. The car keeps amazing me though. The floorboards are absolutely perfect and the carpet still has the original date tag on it. Is it worth taking the door panels off to look for a build sheet? Any other places?


Thanks,


Jason

[Stefano]

Jason,
I have yet to find a build sheet from a 1969 Norwood Camaro and let's say that I have looked for at least a few.

[Jeff H]

I know of at least 1 Norwood car with the broadcast sheet and it's an original JL8 car. He also has the window sticker. That is pretty rare to find the sheet on a Norwood car though.

[SuperNovaSS]

That's what I figured. Does anyone have an L-88 service replacement carb they would want to part with? The one off this car had been stolen before I got it.



Jason

[TimG]

I have three broadcast sheets on my old 69 Pace Car. They are the same except one has an error on the key codes. The dealer owned this car for 12 years and kept everything.
I do not have the ability to post these but I can FAX to anyone that would like to see them. I still have the original paperwork on this low mile car as it burnt up in a severe fire. I always wonder if that car is back on the road.

[SuperNovaSS]

Would it be better to restore this car to the way it came new from Harrell or to the condition it was in the pictures I got from the original owner? I haven't decided whether I'm going to restore it or sell it yet. Just curious to get opinions. Also does anybody know if Harrell used the L78 carb on an L-88 conversion?


Jason

[Edited by SuperNovaSS (12-27-2001 at 03:09 AM).]

[Rat_Pack]

Jason, you would be better off to leave it as it is and show it that way. Get the car mechanically sound and put the slots back on it and give it a good cleaning. It will draw more attention this way since you have photos from when it was originally modified. I have found that when a car is in this condition and still running, people seem to draw to it more. They like what has not been messed with and restored. This car has character and loads of it!

I have a couple of old hot rod Camaros pushed off to the side that are covered in dust and have faded paint, big tires and wheels and other period correct hot rod parts on them, basically like yours. Those cars get more attention than the frame off cars I have sitting 20ft away that I am working on. Show it that way for a year and then restore it back to the way the pictures show it: fender flares, slot wheels, big tires, high ride height, and Monza exhaust. It is one bad hot rod............RatPack.............

Whitetop don't you agree?

[whitetop]

I agree with Ratpack. I was at a Street Rod Nationals show last year and there was a original '50's flathead powered 1932 Ford Roadster that was in storage since the late '50's. The paint was cracked/dull, interior was coming apart and the chrome was dull and hazy. The car was not as nearly as perfect as cars built today. The welds were not great, detail was just not there. This was how most of the cars were built back then. However that being said, the car had a huge crowd around it all day. There were other '50's style hot rods(recently built cars to look like they were from the era) there but were not getting as much attention as this one. You saw a look on peoples faces when they saw the car you do not see often. People like to see something that is original as it was. I think some "patina" adds character as long as it is not excessive.
I would clean up the Camaro and put the wide slots/tires back on it. Of course I'm biased towards Day 2 cars but I have to say what I saw with the '32.
Dave

[Edited by whitetop (12-27-2001 at 10:21 AM).]

[Warren Malkin]

Hey 68TopStock, this is just a reply to your 12/8 posting about CE trannys. I think CE was reserved for counter engines,or otherwise called "crate engine". I myself have never seen it stamped on a tranny case, I just haven't been able to check them all yet! The following is just my observations, open to criticism, or enlightenment.
Any transmission case I have seen with CC, or CT stamped on it followed by a number, would be a replacement (counter) bare case, or replacement complete assembly. The single digit following CC or CT, would be the year. Examples; CC9,or CT0 would be'69 and '70 respectively. It usually has a five digit serial number near it also.
If the case also has an assembly date, then it was a complete tranny when sold over the counter. For example; CT9 P9B21C. If just CC9, it should have no assembly date, which means it was a bare case only.


[Edited by Warren Malkin (12-27-2001 at 10:50 AM).]

[Rat_Pack]

I wouldn't worry too much about the paint unless bare metal is showing. Looks like only the horizontal surfaces need touching up. Buff the sides of the car and then paint the horizontal surfaces and "blend" them in with the sides. Don't worry about perfection as it will look fine with the sides of the car being shined up a little..................RatPack.................

[Warren Malkin]

Can't say I have ever heard of "CE" as Chevrolet Engineering, but I don't claim to know everything! Does anyone have any sources at GM that can identify the prefix "CC", "CE", or "CT" on driveline parts?

[Mr70]

Like that episode of PBS antiques Road show where the owner cleaned the "Patina" off of here Tiffany style lamp.She depreciated it 50-60%.
Our society has a bad habit of cleaning everthing up real good.Only now there are very few survivors left to see how they originally came!

In regards to "CE" service replacements codes.
This from the 1969 Chevrolet Dealer Service information Bulletin 69-I-1.They produced one of these pamphlets each year.

"Service replacement Engines and Trans will be Identified by the first letter for the GM division that produced it".
C-Chevrolet
L-Oldsmobile
K-Cadillac
B-Buick
P-Pontiac

The second letter will indicate the type of unit,E=engine,T=Transmission.

The following number will designate the model year.

The last 5 digits to specify the sequence number from that particular plant.

Turbo-Hydramatic transmissions will be numbered with the letter "H",regardless of the GM division using the transmission.

*This numbering system applies to ALL Engine assemblies,partial engines,fitted cylinders,cylinder cases,Transmission assemblies and thier cases.

[Warren Malkin]

mr70, great info you supplied there! Didn't realize the "C" was for Chevrolet. Always glad to be better informed.

[Stefano]

Thanks for the info.

[Stefano]

Warren,
I had always thaught that the "CE" designation represented Chevrolet Engineering, although Counter Engine or Crate Engine makes more sense.

[SuperNovaSS]

I totally agree. If I decide to sell the car it will be sold unrestored. The car would not need as much attention in the restoration as most, since it is in good condition already. Paint is really its only downfall.



Jason

[Edited by SuperNovaSS (12-27-2001 at 12:41 PM).]

[68TopStock]

Warren/mr70,

Thanks for the info on the replacement engines and trannies. This is real hard to find data. http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

[X77D80]

Are those California black plates in the 1973 photos?? If so, this car was registered in CA in 1969. Begining in 1970 CA went to blue plates...

[Belair62]

I was under the impression that 69 was a transition year from black to blue plates. Some 69's I though got blue plates if the local DMV was finally out of 63 Black plates and it was late in the year..The more populated areas got the blue plates first.An old friend told me this who went to Cal. regularly to bring back rust free(no charge for it) cars ! Most 69 cars with black plates I have seen started with letters very near the end of the alphabet.i.e. v thru z etc. Anyone from Cal can shed more precise info on this ? I like black plate cars.

[SuperNovaSS]

The original owner registered the car in California when he bought it new. He told me he registered in California then went to Kansas City got the car and drove it home. I am trying to get the black and gold plates back but I think the second owner turned them into the DMV.


Jason

[Chuck Norton]

Belair 62,

Your recollection is accurate. Cars licensed in California in 1969 may have had either the black plates or the new blue ones. The changeover came rather late in the year. One '69 I owned was tagged ZLP ### in black plates indicating that the cycle of available combinations was nearly exhausted. Conversely, one '69 Camaro that passed through my hands a few years ago had blue plates beginning with ### A?? . Note that the black plates had the alpha preceding the numeric and the order was reversed on blue plates.

C.

[X77D80]

There are some 1970 model Chevelles with black plates cruising the streets of CA probably because they were being produced and sold late in 69 as 1970 models. Because of the 1970 Camaro's late (Feb 70) unveiling, it would be highly unlikely you would find a 1970 black plate Camaro...
Back to the Harrell Camaro, the original owner bought it from Harrell, drove it home to CA and registered it!? ThatÃs very cool!!!

[SuperNovaSS]

Yep, the original owner was a funny car racer and knew Harrell through racing.I think he bought the car and registered it in California before he went to get the car.I talked with him today and he told me some more interesting things about the car. He went to Harrell's shop a day early and watched them finish putting the car together. He got the car with the 396 emblems still on the fenders and Harrell gave him the 427 emblems to put on himself. He never put them on because he didn't want anyone to know it was a 427.Instead, he nailed them to his workbench. He is a great guy and loves talking about the car.


Jason

[Edited by SuperNovaSS (12-31-2001 at 10:18 PM).]

[SuperNovaSS]

Were Vins stamped on turbo 400s? If so, where?


Thanks,


Jason

[SuperNovaSS]

Does anyone have any info on Bill Allen or Branine Chevrolet? Are either of them still around? Do they have any documents?


Thanks,


Jason

[Rat_Pack]

Jason, the vin was stamped on the driver's side of the transmission above the pan on a flat area. You will be able to see it with a flash light or drop light................RatPack...............

[SuperNovaSS]

I have looked for the VIN number on the trans and can't find it. It may be because the exhaust is in the way. Is it directly above the pan?


Thanks,


Jason

[Stefano]

Jason,
Try looking where the trans and block bolt up,from the top side and on the trans of course. The vin sould be on the drivers side and you can see it from the top back side of the engine bay, towards the fire wall.

[Mr70]

Yes.
And the exhaust is exactly parallel to it.You must get your glasses on and a good light source.

[Rat_Pack]

On a TH400 the number is stamped just above the pan and between the two drivers side pan bolts in between two small reinforcing ribs . It is very hard to see if the exhaust is still there. I had to use a light and a mirror to read mine as the lh headpipe runs parallel with it. Powerglides and TH350 transmissions usually have it stamped on the bellhousing portion next to the block on the drivers side, check those places just to see if it is stamped there by mistake. If no number can be found then it may be a replacement trans.....................RatPack................. ...

[SuperNovaSS]

Thanks guys. I will check it out and let you know what I find. It sounds like I may have been looking in completely the wrong place.


Jason

[SuperNovaSS]

I looked and could not see it in either location. I then decided to disconnect the exhaust and still could not find it. I'm almost positive the trans is right since the car has been sitting for a long time and has the right tag on it. Any other ideas? Did all turbo 400's have VINs?


Jason

[SuperNovaSS]

Does anyone have any info on Bill Allen or Branine Chevrolet? Are either of them still around? Do they have any documents?

Thanks,


Jason

[JChlupsa]

Dont have a replacement carb but I have a July 69 Pop Hot Rodding that has an article on the ZL1 Vette and a Dick Harrell ZL1 Camaro I can scan and e-mail to you also have one on the 67 DANA 427 Camaro from a April Car Life mag.

? whats up with the dates on posts 2001????

[Edited by HawaiianCamaro (03-15-2002 at 12:27 PM).]

[Edited by HawaiianCamaro (03-15-2002 at 12:31 PM).]

[SuperNovaSS]

Still wondering if anyone knows how to get ahold of Bill Allen or Branine Chevrolet. Any ideas?


Thanks,


Jason

[JChlupsa]

Hey Jason, wheres the mention of you owning the car or how YOU discovered what it was.

[SuperNovaSS]

I was contacted for my info but was told it was too late to get it in the article. I have to get to the store to grab that mag.


Jason

[RamAirDave]

Wow... 7 years between posts in this thread.

[SuperNovaSS]

Dave,

This used to be my car. I sold it years ago and it is now restored. It came out in the lastest issue of Camaro Performers. It funny to go back and read this thread. I was quite ignorant back then. At least a little more ignorant than I am now http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif.


Jason

[JChlupsa]

Mag just hit the stands here but then a lot of the mags from the same publisher have been gone from the racks here for about 2 months.

I just thought it was odd that you came here and alerted everyone about the car and posted a lot of pictures but it gave credit for finding it to another party. Should have bought it when you asked me after you brought it over and was not sure of it but other things take priority like rebuilding a new place which we finally hit the amount needed http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Nice looking car though, would be nice to see it at SCR 12 sitting next to another Blue DH Camaro

[Kurt S]

I believe that some docs exist for this car....

[brandes71ss]

I have a 69 dick harrell camaro it is hugger orange with the 427 4 speed

[Born30YrsLate]

So a...how bout some pics of both these cars....PLEASE....