Car Search Info

[TXYenko]

I just picked up, what to me, is an unusual 1969 Camaro. It's in transit now, so I don't have much handy on it other than this. It's a 69 427 matching number motor, doesn't look like a restamp, turbo 400, 4.11 12 bolt rear, no RS, SS or Z28 options. Drum brakes all around, no PS no other options that I could find. The body is great, needs cosmetics, but price was right. Although I bought the car for a weekend/daily driver, I think this combination is atypical of an off the dealer car. Any ideas on where I should start looking at or researching this car. Lady I bought it from didn't know anything history or previous owner wise about the car. Thanks any help is appreciated.

[Charley Lillard]

Something Fishy with the car. I have never seen or heard of any Big Block Camaro with drum brakes, always at least Power front Discs. Look on the front face of the passenger side rear axle tube and tell us what you find stamped there. Also let us know the Code stamped on the engine.

[COPO]

First, welcome to the board. I think you will find many knowledgeable and helpful supercar enthusiasts frquent the site.

The front drum brakes are a very likely indication that it is probably not a factory 427 car. Power front discs were a mandatory option for factory COPO's. If you post the VIN, trim tag information and engine info then a further analysis can be made. There are also a number of other physical clues you can look for once the car arrives to help to determine how it left the factory.

[Edited by COPO (11-04-2001 at 07:05 PM).]

[68TopStock]

If other clues are present, don't let the drums fool you. Disc brake systems were the first thing removed on a serious drag car. When "Little Hoss" arrived, it had drum brakes, and no power booster. (it is easier to install a line-lock on a non-power set-up) The original (1st after Fred) owner removed them in 1970 when he got serious about winning. Many pro stockers had no front brakes. It is a fast and simple way of removing weight, like moving the battery. If reconverted to street, anything could be put back on.

[TXYenko]

Well 68Topstock...you may be on the right track, the box in the trunk, has an old master cylinder with booster, spindles and brakes...and lots of racetrack spares...plugs, points, old old fire ext., extra 5 point harness, misc tools, tech sheets, time slips...the guy was definitely a drag racer, and the garage was full of stuff from the 50's and up. The wife was not willing to part with anything but the car, she wanted to see it driven again.

[JoeC]

Best place to start is to get all the numbers and codes you can find from trim tag, engine, trans, and rear. Check interior under seats and rugs and check gas tank for any paperwork. Then start decoding.

[COPO PETE]

Wow, sounds like an interesting find! First thing I would check is the firewall tag. Usually they have a "X" series number on it. Look for a X11, or X44 and see if it has the big block heater box in it. Also, any signs of a cowl hood? Even if it's gone, is the wiring their? If all that is there, then start looking for the hard to see numbers. Good Luck.
Peter

[Edited by COPO PETE (11-05-2001 at 06:29 AM).]

[68TopStock]

BINGO!

The turbo 400 is another clue this may be a special car. Sounds like a potential COPO 427 car. Is it a column shift? The state of Texas has probably more drag racers than any other state, both past and present. The more I read about racers from there the more I am impressed. Names such as Bill Heishler (Mr. Bardahl), Don Hardy (funny car builder), Mike Barkhart, Shay Nichols (ZL1 #2) are just a few off the top of my head. At the World Finals in '68 most winners were Texans. A big AHRA state.

My car, the Fred Gibb "Little Hoss" was one of the top money winners in Texas from 1974-1977. In '74 it was "in the money" 44 times. A past track champion at Pinwell race track, near Odessa. At the time it was renamed "Mighty Mouse". I'll bet a few more cars were "imported" to Texas for racing.

Once you have the VIN there are several dealer archives that may be able to be searched to determine where it was originally ordered from. If it was a Texas dealer, more research may uncover the ordering dealer. Feel free to e-mail me, if you would like to keep this confidential.

[Mr Yenko]

68top stock,
Was the #2 Shay Nichols car ever found.I had heard that car and Malcom Durham's Strip Blazer were never found . Along with others iam sure , but i was wondering about these (2).

[68TopStock]

Yes,

The #2 Shay Nichols car has been restored back to showroom ready condition. I saw it on a web site earlier this year, it is still in Texas. Don't know much more, or what web site it was on. There was a pic of it though with the caption, as listed above. Don't know of Strip Blazer's where abouts.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

According to Cunneen's book, Malcolm's Strip Blazer has not been found - but the engine has??
M

[bowtie3168]

I ate dinner with Malcolm and his son on the friday of "The NHRA Division 1 Points Meet" last year. I asked him about his ZL1 and it had not been found. Malcolm is a great guy and is very friendly. I recommend caution while contacting him about info (on the ZL1) because some collectors (I think) tried to get some info out of him while trying to purchase the car (for themselves). Mr. Durham is a very bright and smart gentleman, and might think that you are pumping him for info.I would not want anyone to have a negative reaction to him because he might think that someone is trying to get info out of him on the car. He is great to talk to. If you get the opportunity to chat with him at a show I highly recommend it. He has always been a helpful to me with historical facts. He would like to have the car for his collection. If anybody wishes to share some info as to the car's current location I would be happy to put you in contact with him.

Andrew

[JoeC]

The Shay Nichols ZL1 was raced with a wild looking multi colored paint job and white interior. The article said it even took a first place trophy at a custom car show. It did pop up on the net at a Corvette store a wile ago. I emailed them about it and they said it was not for sale and that they had documentation that it was ZL1 #2.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

From my notes I think the Durham car was a Fathom Green, 4speed (M21), 711 interior car. It was one of the 50 Gibb cars that was returned to Norwood, and then reinvoiced to Lustine Chevrolet in Hyattsville, Maryland. I believe it was car #40.
M

[TXYenko]

Wow...you guys are great : ) The car is a California car though according to the wife. She seems to think he was the original owner, but it's been a while, and since it was a race car for the most part, she didn't pay it much mind. I should have looked under the covers at the 5 motors that were sitting on stands, but she wasn't too keen on my rooting around all the cool stuff that was in this garage. She was gonna go look for a folder that may contain more paperwork on the car, I'm hoping that will make the search a lot easier. Thanks for a great site, I'm having a ball reading all about you guys and your cars, and learning a ton along the way.

[bkhpah]

Does the car have an L or N in the VIN#. I don't think an absolute LA COPO car has been located to date. This may be one of the first if it turns out to be a real COPO...BKH

[68TopStock]

TXYenko,

Once (if you do) you receive paperwork, please let us know who the ordering dealer was. Maybe, just maybe, it will be a Courtesy Chevrolet car.

bkhpa/JoeC/CharleyL,

I have been developing some thoughts, that need to be either confirmed, substantiated, or debunked, regarding Harrell COPO orders.

It is known Dick Harrell had a number of Chevrolet dealers willing to go to bat for him over the years. As of this time, little is known about the "missing" COPO's, which appear to have been up to 1/2(?) of all COPO's made in 1969. I think Dick Harrell may have had something to do with many COPO orders in the Southwest. Early in his career he was associated with Gateway Chev. in New Mexico, and Bill Thomas in California. We also know he had Courtesy Chevrolet as his main southwest sponsor for his Performance Center network (AZ, CA). Has anyone made a tally of the current known COPO orders vs the total assumed made, such as from the Tonowanda plant records?

Are a substantial portion of the missing COPO's to be found in the southwest? Are these COPO's to be found around regions that had National drag events, such as Beeline in AZ or GreenValley in TX or Lions in CA? Are beat-up old drag cars a viable source of future COPO restoration projects, if they can be documented as a COPO in some fashion?

[Ed Cunneen]

The Shay Nichols ZL-1 Camaro was car #5, not #2. Robert Carpenter was shown as the original owner of ZL-1 #2. I believe Shay's car was destroyed.

[68TopStock]

Ed,

Was there a misprint in the '69 Hooper book?
I have some articles from the Dragworld publication, regarding Shay Nichols racing Plymouths(?) in TopStock, Division 4 (Texas). Same class as Herb and Fred with "Little Hoss" in 1968. This was prior to her converting to Chevrolet with her ZL1. She was runner-up in her division for 1968.

[Ed Cunneen]

It must have been a misprint.

[mdaniels]

What ever happened to Hooper,Does he still have his store in MD?

[William]

Just for the record ZL-1 #40 was located in Maryland in the early '80s and sold to a collector in Oregon. Sold him a few parts, now restored I guess.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

I thought the car in Oregon was #34, F-Green, 4sp, from Govans Chev. in MD??
M

[Charley Lillard]

I think Jim Stubbings bought a green one out of Oregon about a year ago.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Jimmy also bought #23 from PA about 2 years ago, dusk blue, 4sp, from Lafferty Chev. in Warminster, Pa. I think he bought it in partnership with Al Maynard??
M

[COPO PETE]

Green one from Heartbeat James (green one) is being restored by Scott Tieman in Michigan.I had a look at in Sept. Has the original motor I'm told. The blue one that Al has, is at his shop. Whether he owns it in partnership or not I don't know, but he does have possesion of it!
Peter

[Edited by COPO PETE (11-12-2001 at 05:56 PM).]

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

I know the blue one definitely does not have it's orig. engine, and I don't think the trans is either. The car has mini-tubs, and the normal street race stuff from back in the day.
M

[68TopStock]

Here is a link to the #23 car mentioned above. It has been restored back to original condition.

http://www.69zl1.com

[Edited by 68TopStock (11-15-2001 at 02:50 PM).]

[Edited by 68TopStock (11-15-2001 at 02:52 PM).]

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Wow!! Big job. I wonder why they left the drivers side door full of those holes, and didn't replace it with an undrilled one. I also wonder why the put Firestone wide oval NOS tires on it, I thought they came with Goodyears??
I love that color, reminds of the Stanmobile!!
M

[William]

ZL1s used whatever tires were ready when the car was. Ken Barnhardt has photos of #16 on the trailer at Gibb Chev showing Firestone tires. But they are not the same as the tires on #23, which I believe to be an early '70s style. The '69-style Firestone F70 x 14 had very similar lettering to the E70 x 15 Sport Car 200s.

By the way #16 has an E78 x 14 tire sticker on the LH door.

[x44d80]

I can't imagine cutting two cars in half to make one. When I requarted my car it took forever.I used GM quarters and it took forever to line them up properly.